From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #71 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, February 3 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 071 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) [Don Rowe ] Re: WHEN IS THE BOX SET COMING OUT? [Randy Remote ] Political correctness (njc) [evian ] RE: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) [jan gyn ] I really shouldn't start this (njc) [evian ] Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) ["Alison Einerson" ] Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) ["Eric Taylor" ] Jaco Pastorius Jazz Bass ["Mark T. Domyancich" ] Re: "Political correctness," etc. (NJC) WAR!!!! [catman ] Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) [catman ] RE: Hejira vs DJRD [Chris Marshall ] Re: Don & Farrah NJC [catman ] Re: Political correctness (njc) [catman ] Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) [catman ] Re: Wales (NJC) [Dmascall@aol.com] (no subject) [dave fairall / beth miller ] Re: viscous lists (NJC) ["Alan Lorimer" ] RE: re: "Political correctness," etc. [LL ] RE: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) [neo@mail.utexas.edu (Nei] Re: BSN Shipping Now [zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny)] Re: BSN Shipping Now [MGVal@aol.com] RE: "Political correctness," etc. (NJC) ["patrick leader" Subject: Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) Unfortunately, there really was such a bumper-sticker, though if memory serves, it's intent was to draw attention to Bryant's strident anti-gay politics, and was not produced by Bryant herself. But this upper middle class, socially convenient Protestant, white, heterosexual male, registered Democrat still considered it sick. I fear a great many were all too willing to take it seriously ... but I have no supporting demographics. Don Rowe - --- Catherine McKay wrote: > Catman writes: > >Anita produced a lovely bumper sticker: Kill A > Queer For Christ. ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:47:40 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) Don, I thought you were really Larry Klein. Aren't you Jewish? But I agree, the prevailing sentiment behind bumper sticker was indeed sick. Posting a lot today for some reason, Harper Lou - -----Original Message----- From: Don Rowe [mailto:dgrowe227@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 1:42 PM To: Catherine McKay Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) Unfortunately, there really was such a bumper-sticker, though if memory serves, it's intent was to draw attention to Bryant's strident anti-gay politics, and was not produced by Bryant herself. But this upper middle class, socially convenient Protestant, white, heterosexual male, registered Democrat still considered it sick. I fear a great many were all too willing to take it seriously ... but I have no supporting demographics. Don Rowe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:49:57 -0800 From: "Jerome Gonzales" Subject: "Both Sides, Now" on radio!!!! I am overcome with pure joy and wondrous beauty. Nic Harcourt on 'Morning Becomes Eclectic' just played the new 'Both Sides, Now' and offered three of the limited edition of the new album as a gift with subscription to KCRW. For those not in the know, KCRW is LA's greatest radio station which happens to be public. Joni is a devotee of it as am I. Nic still doesn't have the full album promo so since I have one on the way, I will be dropping it off tomorrow or Monday. Spreading the Joni-it's a passion and a mission!!!!! Jerome ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:01:07 -0800 From: jan gyn Subject: RE: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) >Excuse me, Neil, but I think "nipple" is the word we're not allowed to say >on this list. >I keep seeing all these references to the n--- word, so I'm sure it's >against list policy. >Please try to keep it PC in the future, there, bud! >Harper Lou Wowsers! I glanced at this msg and then thinking y'all might be discussing JM started searchin' my trash! - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:03:55 -0600 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: RE: re: "Political correctness," etc. I wrote, and LL responded: ">As with anything else, it may; it may not. >But I can tell you that my own deep respect for the nuances of language is >precisely what caused me to jump into this debate in the first place, and to >became so irritated with the overuse (misuse) of the term term "PC" to cover >a multitude of ill-defined sins. I misunderstood, then, and apologize. I was under the impression that your objective was to dissuade bigotry, perceived or otherwise." That, too! But you were speaking about language, and so it was that particular motivation of mine that I emphasized in my reply. It is a very strong one. I also wrote, and LL responded: ">Hmm. . . if your math is right, there could be lots of reasons for that: >more people of certain viewpoints on the list; all the died-in-the-wool >PCers were busy during this thread; the fact that the view you express is >one that's played up OVER and OVER again in the press, so people are >familiar with it? That's rather doubtful, since this group is fairly independent and most of them are also relatively irreverent of the press in light of some actually "being" the press, however, whether the view I express is one played over and over again in the press, remains for me, specifically, to be seen and may well depend on what papers one reads. In addition, not having expounded on or defended my views, there are likely qualifying statements that may lead you to determine that I may possibly be a reasonable person, even perhaps one of sound mind, rather than simply another "lemming" leaping along with a "pop-op." :)" Well, the possibilities I suggested were written to be taken *somewhat* tongue-in-cheek: maybe I didn't make that quite clear enough. And far be it from me to suggest that *this* group is comprised of a bunch of lemmings! ;-) But I do think that the view that something called "PC" exists and is out to destroy language and clear thought (if not the decency of Western civilization) is one that's been replicated in quite a few magazines and newspapers, whichever ones you may happen to read. And yes, I think people tend to respond to views with which they are familiar. Finally, LL writes, "If we are able to continue, I think you will see that we are not as opposed on this issue as you seem to think." I don't think we're diametrically opposed on this issue at all. I think we agree on some things, like the great importance of clear language, and are likely to continue to disagree on others. Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:10:32 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Joni's recording method We're talking about the inner sanctum now...where few people have been! I'm sure you are correct that the piano stuff on "Blue",LOTC,FTR was done live. There are videos of her performing those songs on Dick Cavett, Johnny Cash Show,etc, pretty much to the letter of the studio versions. I expect that as her process got more complex, she may have overdubbed the vocals afterwards, for instance on C&S, HOSL etc. Others, like "Off Night Backstreet" sound like the guitar & vocal were done simultaneously. I'm just taking an uneducated guess here. I don't know how much actual details of her recording process have been revealed. RR "Helen M. Adcock" wrote: > > There's been recent discussions about Joni's tuning and writing methods, but > I'm curious about her recording methods, ie. does she play guitar and sing > at the same time, or lay down the guitar first, then sing, or what? Does > anyone know? I've always pictured her recording with the guitar at the same > time, especially since a lot of her songs don't follow conventional rhyming > patterns, you know, fitting 73 syllables into a 4/4 beat! Likewise with the > piano. I can't imagine her playing the piano for "Blue" or "The Last Time I > Saw Richard" then singing over the top of it - the performances are too > "raw" (hopefully you know what I mean by that)! > > Anyone have any answers/thoughts/ideas? Or has this been done to death in > the past, and I've just missed it! > > Helen > _______________________________ > "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with > available extremes" - Carole King > > hell@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:15:50 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: WHEN IS THE BOX SET COMING OUT? I have heard of no plans or rumours of one. I would agree that a big fat one is long overdue. RR Relayer211@aol.com wrote: > > There are so many box sets out there,some of them of artist far less > deserving of the boxed set treatment then Joni.Are there any plans for a Joni > Mitchell box set in the recent future,and if not,why on earth not??? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 14:40:18 -0600 From: evian Subject: Political correctness (njc) Harper Lou lamented: > Excuse me, Neil, but I think "nipple" is the word we're not allowed to say > on this list. > Yes, I prefer "round brownish bumpy orbs" -- catches the true meaning much better! Such as "My round brownish bumpy orbs are very sensitive". The PC debate is interesting because I just got back from a meeting not 15 mins ago, and we discussed the whole PC thing in relation to teaching To Kill a Mockingbird, but it would take me a day and a half to explain all the hoo-ha we encountered from students who were aghast that we would repeat aloud dialogue from the the text that contained racist language. Anyway, I won't go into it, but it was certainly an eye-opener of how PC language has made it challenging to teach something that is historically dated to a generation of students who want to deny the history and the realities of racist language. Evian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:41:07 -0800 From: jan gyn Subject: RE: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) We should get a bumper sticker that says, 'I Brake For Joni Fans- ONLY! - -jan >Unfortunately, there really was such a bumper-sticker, >though if memory serves, it's intent was to draw >attention to Bryant's strident anti-gay politics, and >was not produced by Bryant herself. But this upper >middle class, socially convenient Protestant, white, >heterosexual male, registered Democrat still >considered it sick. I fear a great many were all too >willing to take it seriously ... but I have no >supporting demographics. >Don Rowe > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:18:21 +0100 From: Roman Subject: Re: Don & Farrah NJC catman wrote: > > > the gay > > classmates who decided they didn't want to ever return to the bleak > > homophobic provincial setting of their youth, > > Read this and then this: > > > assumed everyone in our little world was straight, and though that world > > was a tiny one in a rural backwater, I think that assumption was > > justified. > > if it is true that that assumption was made, then the first is hardly likely > to be true! Colin, I think I see what you're saying, but it's not getting through my thick head tonight (I have the flu) - Could you clarify it some more for me please? Thanks, tube ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 14:51:10 -0600 From: evian Subject: I really shouldn't start this (njc) Harper Lou wrote: > I can't believe people actually put bare-naked POSTERS on their walls > without frames! How gauche! > > Yup, that's me.... my real name is Cletus, the slack-jawed yokel ;) Evian p.s. I am SERIOUSLY gearing myself up to quit smoking -- thinking of doing the Zyban thing in April, FINALLY. So, if I get the (I was going to say the b-word but trying to think of a better term) compunction to do it, I'll share your pain, since smoking is about my second-favorite thing to do -- I swear, I could outsmoke Joni if I let myself smoke in the house. As it is now, I have to find excuses to go outside to try and fool my non-smoking wife -- "Taking the garbage out again" or "Gee Whiz, this dog pees every hour, doesn't she?" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 14:01:05 -0700 From: "Alison Einerson" Subject: Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) better yet - "I break for members of the ONLY JONI JMDL -Only!" wait wait - "I break for Joni Mitchell Only!" ;-) alison e in SLC. - ---------- >From: jan gyn >To: joni@smoe.org >Subject: RE: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) >Date: Thu, Feb 3, 2000, 1:41 PM > >We should get a bumper sticker that says, 'I Brake For Joni Fans- ONLY! >-jan > >>Unfortunately, there really was such a bumper-sticker, >>though if memory serves, it's intent was to draw >>attention to Bryant's strident anti-gay politics, and >>was not produced by Bryant herself. But this upper >>middle class, socially convenient Protestant, white, >>heterosexual male, registered Democrat still >>considered it sick. I fear a great many were all too >>willing to take it seriously ... but I have no >>supporting demographics. >>Don Rowe >> > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:43:39 -0000 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Big Yellow Taxi NJC Catherine asked for more info on Robbie Williams : Catherine, he's this pop singer fellow from England who's got a remarkable ability to get kids to give him their pocket money. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:25:00 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: I really shouldn't start this (njc) Evian (any relation to the bottled water?) wrote... >Yup, that's me.... my real name is Cletus, the slack-jawed yokel ;) >Evian >p.s. I am SERIOUSLY gearing myself up to quit smoking Evian, To be totally honest, I used the patch. It worked really well, and I think I'm over the worst of the habit. But I've had practice. I quit smoking hundreds of times before. And, funny, one of my most intense rationalizations for smoking is that "Joni does it." You see, my main reason for quitting was the fact that I am a professional singer. But, it was hard for that to carry any weight when my all-time favorite singer/musician/composer/idol/goddess/inspiration is a dedicated cigarette smoker. The hardest part about quitting, I think, is really deciding that you want to quit. So good luck "SERIOUSLY gearing up." And, just think, with all the money you'll save, you'll have enough to buy frames for those poor gauche posters you have hanging around your slack-jawed yokel abode (hope it's a double-wide). By the way, before my daughter was born, we named her "Cletus the Fetus," so your post brought a nostalgic smile. Wondering when he's going to move into the self-righteous phase so he can go head-to-head with some of those bastards from the moral majority, Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 14:11:41 -0800 From: Mike Friedman Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #67 (up on the walls) I put up Styx and Kansas. I was a child of the 70s. Oh and Billy Joel too. ============================ I'm your Boogie Man That's what I am I'm here to do Whatever I can. - --KC & the Sunshine Band, 1976 > From: w evans > Reply-To: w evans > Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 07:35:18 -0500 (EST) > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #67 > >> But since it was brought up, what did the gay men here put on their walls >> when they were teenagers? I don't ask that in any sort of judgemental way, >> I'm just curious...I suppose they couldn't put beefcake male posters up >> unless they had outed to their parents, which is a minority I'm guessing. (My >> sister didn't out to my parents until she was in her thirties). >> Or maybe they did - I don't know, that's why I'm asking...so you see Don >> Rocker-Bryant, you have opened up an interesting topic. >> >> Bob >> > > Nope, wasn't out.... so I put up Beatles album covers on my walls. :o) > Never tipped off the folks, but it was quite nice. It's too bad that the > new Paul single for "No Other Baby" wasn't out at the time, cuz it's got a > full-color (colorized) poster of Paul at about 15 playing his guitar. (I > may have it framed anyways :o) > > BTW, I just realized that this entire digest #67, except for one post > about HOSL, was entirely NJC. > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:41:53 EST From: Dmascall@aol.com Subject: Wales (NJC) To add my pennyworth to the Welsh connection - I'd recommend the Gower Peninsular in South Wales, just west of Swansea. This is well known to me because I grew up close to it (10-18), and of course it's where I heard my first Joni and bought my first Joni album (HOSL- still my favourite). Apart from the obvious Swansea/Dylan Thomas connections, the Gower peninsular is a little like a bit of Cornwall or Devon dropped into South Wales - and a bit more. It's the point where the South Wales coastline starts to become Atlantic, and as such has the usual West Atlantic attributes of surf beaches and rocky escarpments. What's more, the coastline from a certain point on is wholly owned by the National Trust, and hence development is strictly limited. Inland, it's largely moorland with a few tiny valleys here and there. It can get slightly swamped in summer but even so there's plenty of space if you're prepared to forego motor transport. Didn't mean to harp on like a tourist brochure, but most people I've taken to the area have been surprised by it. Give it a go..... Hope I don't sound too much like the New Zealand bookseller who once swamped me with reams of information about Napier after I'd sent him a solitary fax in the course of business. The joys of parochialism.... For accent references listen to Cerys Matthews of Catatonia. David Mascall ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:56:03 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: Wales (NJC) David Mascall writes: Didn't mean to harp on like a tourist brochure, Excuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me, David! "Harp on"? What means this phrase? Certainly, you would never defile the name of "harp" in a negative colloquial expression! "Accordion on," I could understand. "Viola on," yes! "Bagpipe on," but of course! But "harp on"? Take it back, now, David! You know what it says in the Bible, don't you? "If thou dost not play the harp, God dost not like thee quite as much." (I may have paraphrased.) Indignantly, Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:42:14 -0800 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) Catman wrote: << Anita produced a lovely bumper sticker: Kill A Queer For Christ. >> Catherine responded: << I hope that was just a reaaaaally sick joke on your part - I knew AB was evil but seriously... >> I've seen the bumpersticker *God Hates Fags* & flipped the driver the bird. Poor Anita Bryant, her son turned out to be gay! There IS a God after all.... Fundamentalist Christians who single out the few anti-homosexual quotes in the Bible to justify their relentless persecution of gays should read Same-Sex Unions In Premodern Europe by Yale Professor John Boswell (Villard 1994). Boswell unearthed voluminous documentation that the Catholic & Orthodox churches wed hundreds of men during the First Millennium AD while heterosexual marriages were relegated to civil services. Surviving Gnostic Christian writings from the First & Second Century AD reveal that homosexuality was a sacred part of numerous early Christian sects (as it was by many pre-Christian cultures). Dr. Alfred Kinsey wrote: "Condemnation of all homosexual relationships (especially male) originated in Jewish history in about the Seventh Century B.C., upon the return from the Babylonian exile. Both mouth-genital contacts and homosexual activities had previously been associated with Jewish service." Plato said: "Homosexuality is regarded as shameful by many under foreign domination. This is due to evil on the part of the legislators, to despotism on the part of the rulers, and to cowardice on the part of the governed." If Reformed Jews & all Christians can abandon the Old Testament law forbidding eating pork & shellfish they can certainly reexamine it's archaic view of homosexuality. E.T. __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 16:22:15 -0700 From: Catherine Turley Subject: BSN Shipping Now (NJC) I just got an email from Barnes and Noble (thank you thank you coupon posters Laura and Alan) that my copy of BSN is now on a UPS truck or plane somewhere in the lower 48 and willl be delivered to me in three days (theoretically). I imagine that some of you other eager souls have heard the same. I have not listened to the LACE interview and avoided the Dawson's Creek episode (which wasn't hard) so that I can hear it with virgin ears. Yee haw, its on its way!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:23:26 -0600 From: "Mark T. Domyancich" Subject: Jaco Pastorius Jazz Bass I know this technically isn't Joni-content, but I thought the bass players on the list would be interested in this. I just got the newest Musician's Friend magazine in the mail and on p105 there is a new Fender bass taken after Jaco. It says: The bass of choice for the man who inspired a whole generation of players. It's a basic, very vintage Jazz Bass, set up just the same as Jaco's: alder body without pickguard, two vintage Bi-Pole pickguards, (should be pickups!) vintage 4-saddle bridge, a(nd) vintage reversed tuners. 3 tone sunburst finish. Only $1259.99! Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net http://home.revealed.net/Harpua ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 23:29:01 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: "Political correctness," etc. (NJC) WAR!!!! > > > Or should we just segue straight to the Jerry Springer show and hit each > other with chairs? None of us are common enought for that! > > > You name it! > > Battle! > > Following an age-old Bardic custom of killing your enemies then singing > about it... > > Harper Lou - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 18:31:27 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: Re: Jaco Pastorius Jazz Bass (NJC) On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Mark T. Domyancich wrote: > I know this technically isn't Joni-content, but I thought the bass > players on the list would be interested in this. [snip] Well, at times like this I guess we better take what we can get. ;) - --David (now going to finish writing another political correctness post...) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:26:56 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: Negro (NJC) Just a quick comment flowing on from comments of the historical usage and origins of this word. I believe the prejudice against this word flows from the pronounciation which can be placed upon it. Pronouncing it as "Nee-grow" sounds inoffensive and harmless, pronouncing it "Nig-rah" makes it sound like another word altogether :-( What I am trying to point out here is that it's not just the words you use that matter, but the manner in which they are used that is also important. This probably reflects some other comments that have been made about how the context in which something is said, and how it is said is as important as exactly what has been said. Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Tasmania ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 23:35:45 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) Fraid not. Catherine McKay wrote: > Catman writes: > >Anita produced a lovely bumper sticker: Kill A Queer For Christ. > > I hope that was just a reaaaaally sick joke on your part - I knew AB was > evil but seriously... > > Catherine (in Toronto) > cateri@hotmail.com > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 23:38:31 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: "Politically correct" (NJC) > > > P.S. I'd be happy to take this off-list, if everyone would be more than > happy to move on to something else! Don't you dare! - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 23:34:14 -0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: RE: Hejira vs DJRD On Wednesday, February 02, 2000 11:21 PM, catman [SMTP:catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk] wrote: > >From someone who knows nothing of the technicalities fo >music-I cannnot hear any similarity at all between Hejira >and DJRD. They sound completely > different. Lyrically they are too. hejira is by far the >better album, at least to my ears. > i seem to recall it written on this list that Joni just >threw DJRD together cos she had an obligation to fill. it >certainly is a strange album. My > favourite tracks being Talk To Me, The Tenth World and >Dreamland. Paprika Plains is incredibly boring to my ears. It's funny and interesting to note how differently we all hear and perceive things. I'm the exact opposite to Colin, in that I hear lots of similarities between Hejira and DJRD. However, a large chunk of that is because I play bass, so I'm much more in tune with the lower register of the music, more so than a lot of people, if my recent experiences are anything to go by. Just goes to prove... something or other. [ Recent experiences, I hear you say? Just that I was putting a subwoofer in the car to add a bit of bass reinforcement, and a few friends commented that they don't really notice bass in music. I was ready to call them heathens on the spot, but y'know, live and let live. I guess they'd notice it if it were gone, but it's probably the case that they don't really listen closely to what's going on "down there". Oh, I dunno. ] - --Chris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 23:43:34 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Don & Farrah NJC Okay! I was pointing out that if they did think everyone in their world was straight, the gay ones would not have experienced their days there as homophobic since they would not have been thought of as such and therefore not get buullied or whatever. Roman wrote: > catman wrote: > > > > > the gay > > > classmates who decided they didn't want to ever return to the bleak > > > homophobic provincial setting of their youth, > > > > Read this and then this: > > > > > assumed everyone in our little world was straight, and though that world > > > was a tiny one in a rural backwater, I think that assumption was > > > justified. > > > > if it is true that that assumption was made, then the first is hardly likely > > to be true! > > Colin, I think I see what you're saying, but it's not getting through my > thick head tonight (I have the flu) - Could you clarify it some more for > me please? > > Thanks, > > tube - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 23:45:52 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Political correctness (njc) > > > The PC debate is interesting because I just got back from a meeting > not 15 mins ago, and we discussed the whole PC thing in relation to > teaching To Kill a Mockingbird, but it would take me a day and a half to > explain all the hoo-ha we encountered from students who were aghast that > we would repeat aloud dialogue from the the text that contained racist > language. This is a case of misunderstanding and taking it too far. of course they must know this book and and read it the way it was written. Then they will know WHY people have tried to change the language used. > Anyway, I won't go into it, but it was certainly an > eye-opener of how PC language has made it challenging to teach something > that is historically dated to a generation of students who want to deny > the history and the realities of racist language. > Evian - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 23:47:43 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) jan gyn wrote: > We should get a bumper sticker that says, 'I Brake For Joni Fans- ONLY! good idea but how would we know? Usually, I am in too much of a hurry to worry about whom I might run into. Tho of course, if I ran over a fellow fan, I would wave as i sped on. > -jan > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 23:48:51 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: I really shouldn't start this (njc) > "Gee > Whiz, this dog pees every hour, doesn't she?" if she is an American Cocker Spaniel named Phoebe, then yes. - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 23:49:41 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) Alison Einerson wrote: > better yet - "I break for members of the ONLY JONI JMDL -Only!" No you score points for running one of them down! > wait wait - "I break for Joni Mitchell Only!" > ;-) > > alison e in SLC. > > ---------- > >From: jan gyn > >To: joni@smoe.org > >Subject: RE: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) > >Date: Thu, Feb 3, 2000, 1:41 PM > > > > >We should get a bumper sticker that says, 'I Brake For Joni Fans- ONLY! > >-jan > > > >>Unfortunately, there really was such a bumper-sticker, > >>though if memory serves, it's intent was to draw > >>attention to Bryant's strident anti-gay politics, and > >>was not produced by Bryant herself. But this upper > >>middle class, socially convenient Protestant, white, > >>heterosexual male, registered Democrat still > >>considered it sick. I fear a great many were all too > >>willing to take it seriously ... but I have no > >>supporting demographics. > >>Don Rowe > >> > > - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 15:51:41 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Gross Subject: RE: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) Neil wrote: > Farrah's poster was pretty much forbidden in my small town. I recall a guy > who had gotten his hands on a copy and carried it around too show his buds. > It was so wrinkled and worn by the end of the day, I doubt you could still > make out her nipple. Then Harper Lou wrote: > Excuse me, Neil, but I think "nipple" is the word we're not allowed to say > on this list. > > I keep seeing all these references to the n--- word, so I'm sure it's > against list policy. > > Please try to keep it PC in the future, there, bud! To which I'll irrevently add: NIPPLE NIPPLE NIPPLE NIPPLE NIPPLE NIPPLE (try saying that quickly) Brian, back to my corner without needing to be told np: Grace in Gravity - The Story (Jonatha and Jennifer, good stuff!) ===== "No paper thin walls, no folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:57:52 EST From: Dmascall@aol.com Subject: Record and book stores (NJC) Catherine (in Toronto) wrote , of another lister trying to find the Joni Companion at a bookstore >They'd look it up on the computer for you, sure, but >make sure they've got the name spelled >right, 'cos they won't have a clue who/what you're >talking about. I do agree......but there's often no guarantee that the names are spelt right on the database in the first place, spelt consistently, or are even there! I've never really looked too hard on the online databases, but many book/music databases are like this.....including the the book database I used to work on which at least three British online retailers use. And if the person behind the counter isn't aware of this.....things can get very difficult very soon. All of which flies off at a tangent from what you were saying..... While I'm on the subject, someone I worked with once attributed a well-known novel to "Salmon" Rushdie on a commercial database. David Mascall in Fareham, Southern England. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:57:59 EST From: Dmascall@aol.com Subject: Subject: British? (was Re: WTRF...) (NJC) David.Wright@oberlin.edu continued a thread about being British .... >Speaking as a curious non-Britisher wanting to understand these issues, what *does* being British mean?> To me, being British is about a compromise. To me it's a more open definition of an individual living in the British Isles and not being exclusively English, Welsh Scots etc. Most of the population of the UK live in England, but a quite sizeable proportion don't feel "English" by virtue of birth, background, family history, ethnicity or whatever. Being "British" is one preferred alternative. There are fiercely nationalistic individuals who insist they're pure English, Scots, Welsh or Ulster, but many more of us who are happier to be in a club with a more elastic set of rules ....... >If British means being born in England, Scotland, Wales, or Northern Ireland, doesn't that seem to deny (for instance) Indian, Pakistani, and Caribbean immigrants in Britain a cultural identity? > This is where the more modern concept of Britishness kicks in....... IMO the label British is equally appropriate to any ethnic community or to individuals who reside in the British Isles. Of course I realise that the original concept of "Britishness", as linked to the British Empire, and used by it, was a very manufactured thing, but I hope it's moved on over time to something a lot more enlightened. Strangely enough, some of the most "English"-seeming individuals used to be those white anglo-saxons with colonial backgrounds who were born in India , Kenya, South Africa or other outposts of what was the "British Empire". David Mascall ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:58:02 EST From: Dmascall@aol.com Subject: Late posts (NJC) Apologies to anyone who receives a very late email from me or response to a now-dead thread - I've just discovered a cache of unsent mail David Mascall ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 00:01:29 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) > Fundamentalist Christians who single out the few anti-homosexual quotes > in the Bible to justify their relentless persecution of gays should read Their condemantion of homsexuals has nothing whatever to do with what the Bible says. That is an excuse and a convenient back up for thier own bigotry. if they weren't bigots in the first place they would not accept what a book says. Also, the passages referred to are out of context and even mistranslations.the story f sodom and Gomorrah is a good example. It makes it very clear that the crowd waiting out side are HETEROSEXUAL, otherwise why would be afther the DAUGHTERS? The reason for caloling for them to turf the man out so they'may know him' is actually so that these heterosexual men could rape him which was common practice in those days. it had nothing to do with homsexuaity but with humilation-this is what they did to prisoners of war-they raped to them to humilaiate them and show them they had been beaten. Furthermore, it was a very strong feeling that men should not in anyway be considered feminin as females wwere second class. Another reason why homsexuals were judged because in their ignorance they thought of this as female behaviour. Also, the thing paul spoke against and others was the practice of homosexaul prostiutuion in the temples becuase of it's relationship tp paganism. But don't bother trying to tell a fundie that! They won't believe you and they don't care anyway. they would find something else to back up their prejudice. Like we eat children and that we are trying to take over the world and destroy family life. (we don't need to do that even if we wanted to-they do a great job all on their own!) Apart from which. anyone with a brain that can see that homesexuality harms no one, is not immoral and couldn't posdsibly harm God in anyway shape or form. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 00:02:58 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) > (try saying that quickly) an this:I am not a pheasant plucker I'm the pheasnat plucker's mate I am only plucking pheasants cos the pheasant plucker's late > > > Brian, back to my corner without needing to be told > > np: Grace in Gravity - The Story (Jonatha and Jennifer, good stuff!) > > ===== > "No paper thin walls, no folks above > No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" > > yeah, right > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 00:04:48 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Hejira vs DJRD > > > [ Recent experiences, I hear you say? Just that I was putting > a subwoofer in the car to add a bit of bass reinforcement, > and a few friends commented that they don't really notice > bass in music. I was ready to call them heathens on the spot, > but y'know, live and let live. I guess they'd notice it if > it were gone, but it's probably the case that they don't > really listen closely to what's going on "down there". > Oh, I dunno. ] I like bass but not up so much it thumps thumps thumps.TI is very bassy. > > > --Chris - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 19:08:40 EST From: Dmascall@aol.com Subject: Re: Wales (NJC) I take back not a single thrum - despite the delights of the instrument. "Harping on" is pretty appropriate to Wales - ever heard of a Welsh musical genre known as "Penillion" - which involves almost interminable songs with a harpist's accompaniment? It's one of my older brother's personal visions of hell. I could of course have "Grouched on" but that's shifting the ground a little. Perhaps I'll just zither on in an unassuming way. David Mascall ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 19:35:28 -0600 From: dave fairall / beth miller Subject: (no subject) Right on Kevin..... Your comments about Shadows and Light are enlightening, encourage me to focus more on Joni's lyrics. As a musician, often I'm preoccupied w/ the music. thanks DF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:46:48 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: viscous lists (NJC) Tube said (to me) >Cheeky blighter! Tube, This just proves how *viscous* we can be on this list sometimes ;-) Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Tasmania ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 20:09:16 -0500 From: LL Subject: RE: re: "Political correctness," etc. At 02:03 PM 2/3/00 -0600, Pitassi, Mary wrote: >I wrote, and LL responded: > >That, too! But you were speaking about language, and so it was that >particular motivation of mine that I emphasized in my reply. It is a very >strong one. 8<-------------------------------------------------------------->8 >Well, the possibilities I suggested were written to be taken *somewhat* >tongue-in-cheek: maybe I didn't make that quite clear enough. And far be >it from me to suggest that *this* group is comprised of a bunch of lemmings! ACK!! I *never* said that!! I don't even slyly imply it with a wink and a nudge! >;-) But I do think that the view that something called "PC" exists and is >out to destroy language and clear thought (if not the decency of Western >civilization) is one that's been replicated in quite a few magazines and >newspapers, whichever ones you may happen to read. And yes, I think people >tend to respond to views with which they are familiar. Hmm. Pardon my saying so, but "destroy" is such a strong word and seems a bit extreme. My objection is the manipulation of language (by anyone, regardless of their politics) in labelling that to *me* signifies a dismissal of some true issues in favor of "cleaning up" people's consciences. While my friend will say I am quite right about PC not making the problem go away, yet it does ensure that the problem is constrained within the bounds of civil society while it is being addressed, that is, under the assumption that all human beings are civil. It's been my observation that bigots are not reasonable people and I have found, personally, that it is futile to reason with the unreasonable. The attitude is one of self-entitlement, and by using popular terms, i.e. "Newspeak," (read 1984 by George Orwell?) we are really only kidding ourselves that we are taking real social action. These words are not actions. They can pacify those of us who wish it, but they do not change people's hearts. My friend tells me that she agrees PC can be a real pain when you're trying to express yourself and among friends it probably isn't necessary - but for a society to be, and remain, civil, there must be some means of controlling behavior. We aren't controlling anyone's behavior and there is no real way to do that. We think we are pricking the consciences of unethical people with words and changing their attitudes? Specific examples of cultural and societal abuses can be found in classical literature...someone here mentioned _To Kill A Mockingbird_, add _Tarzan_ and _Huckelberry Finn_ . Specifically, HF has been targeted here in the United States for removal from some schools. We really don't want to go back to the days when the white/male culture had complete domination and everything else was dismissed quite openly as inferior, no, but the truth is that white male domination is still the order of the day for the most part. A shameful case is the one of indigenous people. "Native Americans" say that no one here cares at all about them and they are quite right. Our society ignores them and hope they and their land claims will go away. But we *are* among friends here ... right? Has civility been mentioned as a JMDL criteria? Still, there's nothing wrong with "live and let live" as a general guide for living...all have that right. I simply don't agree that PC language is effecting the kind of social change that is needed. And no, I am not a Republican. L lyric@usadatanet.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:11:20 -0500 (EST) From: neo@mail.utexas.edu (Neil E. Orts) Subject: RE: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) At 03:51 PM 2/3/00 -0800, Brian Gross wrote: >Harper Lou wrote: >> Excuse me, Neil, but I think "nipple" is the word we're not allowed to say >> on this list. >> >> I keep seeing all these references to the n--- word, so I'm sure it's >> against list policy. >> >> Please try to keep it PC in the future, there, bud! okay. from now on, I only say "tits." >np: Grace in Gravity - The Story (Jonatha and Jennifer, good stuff!) ooh! I have become such a Jonatha fan. It's all because of the JMDL, too. A couple of years ago, I bought Plumb on the recommendation of some JMDLer (I don't recall who). I listened to it off and on for about a year, never really "getting" it. Then all of a sudden I couldn't turn it off. And I like Ten Cent Wings even better. I don't have her complete discography, yet, but I'm working on it. - -Neil hasn't been on topic since he came back + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + neo@mail.utexas.edu + + + + + + + + + + Neil Ellis Orts Austin, TX 512-372-8082 When we think it's over + + + + + + + + + + + + Baby we find new things to be afraid of -Sarah Masen + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:15:11 -0800 (PST) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Re: BSN Shipping Now Catherine exclaimed! <> That prompted me to check the status of my order from Reprise that was put in early the first day they were taking orders. Status: on back order. "#&#$@" was my initial thought, but then it dawned on me, this is great news for Joni! ;-) And then Catherine also shared: <> I admire your discipline and am thrilled it's on it's way for you!!! Thanks for helping prime the rest of us. ;-) Penny :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Grace dies when it becomes us verses them......Philip Yancey ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:40:19 EST From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: BSN Shipping Now In a message dated 2/3/00 5:33:51 PM Pacific Standard Time, zapuppy2@webtv.net writes: << That prompted me to check the status of my order from Reprise that was put in early the first day they were taking orders. Status: on back order. "#&#$@" was my initial thought, but then it dawned on me, this is great news for Joni! ;-) >> The backorder doesn't mean that she's sold out, it simpy means that they are waiting for the official street date of 02/08/00. At Valley, our stock on hand is about 2,500 pieces. When Joni CDs come out, I always get the promotional stuff from our Marketing Department. What I find very disconcerting is that as of this Monday, we do not have any Joni promos for the BSN limited edition. I find it interesting that Joni has so much artistic control over the entire package from the concept to the music to the packaging and what appears to be nada over the marketing strategy. My company is the main supplier to places like CDNow, Amazon.com and various Indie record stores. They get their Joni from us as well as marketing incentives and promotional items. So far, we have not hawked it in our weekly "streetdate" beyond mention of its upcoming release. No posters, no advertising budget. Nothing. Boggles my mind. MG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:50:34 -0500 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: "Political correctness," etc. (NJC) this conversation has been interesting, but i really don't want to partipate. you can mostly guess where i stand. and i love harper lou on this list, though i'm not with him on this one. but this: >People who insist on being politically >correct are covering up their own tendency toward prejudice, and they're >just making guidelines so they don't risk exposing their own prejudice to >others. > is really wrong. i've had to edit this paragraph for cusswords many times. wrong wrong wrong; lou, a horribly wrong thing to say. when it was discovered that susan smith had drowned her own children, newt gingrich said 'this is what 25 years of liberalism has brought us'. any of us who differed with him on the role of government, on policies, on anything else, no matter how thoughtfully; he called us baby-killers. it was a shameful moment of political rhetoric, my personal nominee for the worst of the last 40 years. lou has suggested that all of us who defend any part of the pc concept are bigots. trying to hide. i'm sorry to say this lou, but it's almost as shameful. i prefer to aim for some sort of politically correct speech because i know personally how words can hurt, and i prefer to avoid hurting people. i'm proud of that; i think it's a fine motivation. harper lou has accused me of being a bigot. he's accused all of us who are careful about the use of words are doing it because we're bigots. lou, i think you owe me a huge apology and a retraction. i have no tendency toward prejudice. patrick jfp - queen latifah - lush life ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #71 **************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. 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