From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #70 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, February 3 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 070 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: re: "Political correctness" (NJC) ["Pitassi, Mary" ] Big Yellow Taxi [Steve Dulson ] Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) ["Catherine McKay" ] I really Shouldn't start this...(njc) [evian ] Re: viscous lists (NJC) [jan gyn ] CSNY (NJC) [zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny)] RE: I really Shouldn't start this...(njc) [Louis Lynch ] Re: mailing lists (njc) ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: thoughts on Alternate Blue ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: live albums (njc) ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Juno Award Nominees (now NJC) [Steve Dulson ] Re: thoughts on Alternate Blue NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] tribute album [Betsy Boyle ] Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Big Yellow Taxi ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: WTRF - Henley to Joni on Ritchie (NJC) [catman ] Re: thoughts on Alternate Blue [David Wright ] Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) ["Neil E. Orts" ] RE: re: "Political correctness" (NJC) ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: thoughts on Alternate Blue NJC ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) ["Catherine McKay" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:51:53 -0600 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: RE: re: "Political correctness" (NJC) LLDeMerle writes: "Hm, well, I'm no conservative, but do know of blind folks who think it's a ridiculous hoot to be referred to as "sightless," among other things, and someone I know has a grandma who bristles at the term "Native American," and hisses, "I'm an *Indian,* for God's sake!" There's no accounting for tastes, it seems. :)" But how often does this really happen? In a related view, I wrote, and you responded: ">Where your thought and my thought meet, I'm afraid, is my suspicion that >even a term like "physically challenged" is not used by the left nearly as >much as those who take glee in pillorying "political correctness" would have >us believe it is. Perhaps however, it also may be an individual view." I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "an individual view." If you mean it's my opinion, it certainly is, but, for what that's worth, it's one that I know is shared by at least some others. What I've been trying to say is that, just as over-enthusiastic exemplars of tendencies that have been labeled "PC," like that government official you mentioned, may obscure hard realities by glossing over them, so some conservatives use the term "PC" and the thoughts and actions that it supposedly encompasses to discredit the political opposition and perhaps avoid having to solve real problems. Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 16:13:40 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: WTRF - Henley to Joni on Ritchie (NJC) > >As for negro, does it not come from negra, the Spanish word for black? It is the Spanish word for black. It's probably not so much the meaning of the word in translation, as the nuances that are added throughtout time, as people say the word with a sneer, or use a pejorative adjective along with it. This changes the meaning of a word and, when you're dealing with people who for a long time were treated at best as second-class citizens, that kind of thing does happen. If people are yanked from their homes, separated from their families, stuffed into overcrowded filthy ships to go to some completely unknown country entirely against their will, to be bought and sold to other people; are whipped for insubordination or even not for doing anything wrong, but just because some spoiled brat slave-owner is in a bad mood and wants to take it out on someone; and then they are referred to by their skin colour and not their own name, and so on, there's a lot of nasty baggage that goes along with "just a name". Sometimes it's not the word itself, but the tone of voice, or the history of the use of that word that hurts more than the actual name. I know it's not the same but, for example, if some old person calls me "dear", or someone I like calls me that, no problem. If I'm a waitress in the local pub, and some drunken lech smacks me on the ass and says "Bring me another beer, dear", it's a whole 'nother thing. (Oops, I called Don "dear" in a previous post - I meant it in the nicest possible way, Don!) (Anyway, wasn't Farrah Fawcett really a GUY? ;] Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 16:23:35 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Biography - NJC- NJC-NJC - now it's FFFFFarrrrrrah >Farah is no longer the girl from CA. No. She proved she can act both on >stage and in film. I know, but I have a hard time taking her seriously, just the same. Is it the hair? The TEETH? I dunno... Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 16:30:32 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Juno Award Nominees Steve notes: >The nominees for Juno Awards (Canada's Grammies) were announced today. >Most interesting to us: > >Best Pop Adult: Joni Mitchell - "Taming The Tiger" Interesting how it takes an American to tell a Canadian that! In typical "short-version-of-the-news-on-the-radio", the only ones that were mentioned in this morning's news story were Alanis Morissette and the usual crowd who are always nominated for 4-5 awards apiece. They didn't even mention Joni's name (the bastards!) Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:32:27 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Big Yellow Taxi Paul Scott wrote: >I'm making a series about protest songs for BBC World Service. I'm including >Big Yellow Taxi as an environmental song. Does anyone know of articles or >information that explains Joni's inspiration for this song The first verse, as SueMac mentioned, came from a trip to Hawaii. The second, I am convinced, was inspired by a Richard Serra installation at the Pasadena Art Museum (admission $1.50 at the time), consisting of several giant tree trunks. > does anyone know who the last paragraph is referring to and >its meaning in relation to the rest of the song? I'm sure "my old man" that the BYT took away is the same "my old man" referred to in the song of that title, ie. Graham Nash. It relates to the rest of the song because it's another case of not knowing what you have until it's gone. PS. I liked the Farrah poster, too. :) ######################################################### Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ (Website under construction!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 16:36:07 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) I know who Anita Bryant is (all those guldarn OJ commercials they used to show up here on TV, before she opened her mouth once too often about the "evils" of gay-ness and got canned, for which we are eternally grateful). But WHO is John Rocker? (I honestly don't know.) Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:31:24 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Biography - NJC- NJC-NJC - now it's FFFFFarrrrrrah - --- Catherine McKay wrote, in response to catman: > > >Farah is no longer the girl from CA. Actually Farrah is a fellow Texan by birth ... a white, female, heterosexual Texan -- by all the best indications I have. ;-) Don Rowe ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:40:00 -0000 From: Paul Scott Subject: big yellow taxi Hello - thanks for the responses so far, they're very useful, didn't know about the musem and stuff - I thought that the last verse was about her old man, but didn't know it was Graham Nash Paul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 10:43:07 -0600 From: evian Subject: I really Shouldn't start this...(njc) Helen took us down memory lane with: > The posters I remember having were The Osmonds (including Donny, Marie and a > chubby pre-pubescent Jimmy), Saturday Night Fever (with John Travolta in the > classic pose in the middle, surrounded by lots of stills from the movie, and > a poster of the current All Black rugby team, which toured South Africa! > Oh, and Abba, in white jumpsuits, in front of the helicopter (it came free > with the Arrival album - a big selling point)! > > Helen, I swear we are somehow separated at birth twins. I had this butt-ugly Donny and Marie thing on my wall (no Jimmy though -- I always hated that little puke). I had the ABBA thing too, and the BeeGees famous one, where Barry is in the middle. And then, of course, there was the Valerie Bertinelli Shrine in the one corner of my room -- I was going to marry her, but then when she married that Van Halen dude, I sent her a card (I kid you not, I was 10 years old and thought she'd actually reply). I also had this really ugly poster of Meatloaf, but my mother threw it out, and I also had to throw out the Cheryl Tiegs after my sister vandalized it with booger drawings (she did it to my fave Val posters too). I used to buy all the teen mags like every week, so I would rotate pictures frequently. Then, when I was a teenager during the 80's, my walls had huge transformations. My magazine buying changed and no longer included the Teen Beat ilk, but I still found posters to hang. I had a wall devoted to Cyndi Lauper, a wall devoted to Madonna, a big Stevie poster that I admit was actually kinda hideous, a HUGE Tina Turner Private Dancer poster, a Kool and the Gang one that was too ugly to mention, and, I can't believe I am admitting this, Samantha Fox. This was about grade 8 to 10. Then, I got rid of all of those and devoted my room to the Cure, a Severed Heads/Skinny Puppy Tour Poster I spend waaay too much money on, a Eurythmics Touch album taped to my door, and a montage above my bed, which I had to tear down because they actually started to creep me out. btw, Kate was THE Angel -- and Bosley, OMG, I swear, David Doyle's voice just made my skin crawl, it was so freaky and annoying I get the heebee-jeebies just thinking about it! Evian (Yes, I am doing work... not my fault if I keep having to minimize WORD because my Homer Simpson wav keeps yelling "The Mail is Here!") np: Buckingham Nicks -- "Races are Run" for the zillionth time today ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 08:46:42 -0800 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: viscous lists (NJC) At 12:55 PM 2/3/00 +0000, you wrote: >I am confused about this spelling of viscous. This spelling sounds like >vis-kus which is something else. Should this be viscious? I don't think i >have actually seen the word written down before. Last week I had a viscious couscous. - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:50:20 -0800 (PST) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: CSNY (NJC) Hi gang! I didn't go to the CSNY show in Portland last night but wanted to relay a cute little tidbit the guys at KINK were talking about. Yesterday was Graham's birthday. It seems unbeknownst to Graham, Nash's wife (Sue?) bought birthday party hats for everyone in the audience and when the guys came out, they turned up the house lights, so as Graham saw a sea of party hats, everyone sang "Happy Birthday" to him. How adorable!! ;-) Penny :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Grace dies when it becomes us verses them......Philip Yancey ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:52:41 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: I really Shouldn't start this...(njc) It's funny to see what you all had hanging on your bedroom walls. I didn't have any posters. I had an 8 x 10 publicity photo of Joni Mitchell, in a frame. And a reprint of an Aubrey Beardsley work, in a frame. And a copy of Picasso's "Tragedy," in a frame. And an oil pastel drawing I did from a concert photo I took of David Bowie, in a frame. I can't believe people actually put bare-naked POSTERS on their walls without frames! How gauche! But, then, after all, I AM a harpist. Starting to feel cocky after kicking the smoking habit, (That's right, you've seen bitchy and cocky. Stay tuned for self-righteous and condescending!) Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:58:38 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: viscous lists (NJC) Jan wrote: Last week I had a viscious couscous. But were you conscious about the vicious couscous, or were you viscous? (The harpist formerly known as harper lou) & @@@@@@@ /||||||# \||||||# \|||||# \||||# \|||# \||# \|# === ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 16:57:46 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: mailing lists (njc) Oh, no. The dreaded "me too" bug has just bitten me - forgive me but I just have to respond! Evian posted: >The Joni list was the first one I joined, and at first, I was >intimidated >as all hell. I kept thinking "I'm going to reply to the >whole digest, and >they will curse me" and "they all know each other >and I have no clue of >these in-jokes" and "What the hell do these >abbreviations mean" and "WTF >is a guitar tab and/or a VG-8" and "so->and-so just sent me a rude email to >remember to use njc, and I am >sure they are reporting me to my isp and I >will be punished somehow" >and every other insecure thing you could think >of. Thank God I >stuck it out and got to know so many of you. Evian, like you, I was intimidated when I first signed on. I did sign on about a year ago, then I unsubscribed because I thought pretty much the same things you did - they all know each other; I don't know what they're talking about; and so on. And I really hate short forms of things - I can never remember what they stand for. Everytime I see CMIARS, my brain says "Wha'?" but eventually it clicks in. To this day, there are some that I still don't get, but i'm too lazy to bother looking them up. The second time I signed up (a few months ago? 6 months or so ago?) I just thought, "What the hell..." and I responded almost right away. I was getting the digest at the time, and I had a really hard time figuring out who wrote what, and sometimes the response to an email gets in there before the original email itself (happens with the individual posts too, so I guess it's all related to how quickly things move from one place to another in cyberspace) and I'd get really confused. So I changed to the individual posts which is daunting, especially if you go away for a few days (yikes! 500 emails in my inbox!) But, I'm glad I stuck it out. I've never been on another list - I did subscribe to the Ricki Lee Jones one for a day or two, but unsubbed - I got the same impression. People weren't necessarily rude, but the jmdl seems to have a lot more class or something. If I make a faux pas of some kind (like inadvertantly recopying the entire text of an email when I really only want to respond to a small part of it), people may point it out, but they do it fairly gently, no name-calling. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 16:59:42 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: thoughts on Alternate Blue Clark says: >I was listening to Alternate Blue tonight and would theorize that >the >reason Good Samaritan didn't make it in is because it sounds >very much >like This Flight Tonight... Help me, someone - what is Alternate Blue? Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 17:03:27 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: live albums (njc) Welcome back, Helen! >By the way, TTT sounds wonderful at low volume in a tent late at >night, >when the only other sound is the surf crashing on the >beach.... That's it - I'm heading for the beach. Never mind that it may be covered in snow and ice. I'm getting the sound of "Tiger Bones" playing in my head with the sound of waves pounding - I need to hear this in real life! Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:07:22 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Re: Juno Award Nominees (now NJC) Catherine wrote: >Interesting how it takes an American to tell a Canadian that! Who ya callin' a 'Murricun? Even though I've lived here for mumbledy-mumble years, I'm still a Brit. Well, English. Well, my passport is now an EU compliant one, instead of the neat, gold-embossed hardcover books British passports USED to be. Don't get me started on INS (US Immigration and Naturalization Service) stories! ######################################################### Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ (Website under construction!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:17:14 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: thoughts on Alternate Blue NJC <> A toilet bowl cleaner...:~D ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:17:08 -0500 From: Betsy Boyle Subject: tribute album Hi all, does anyone know if the Joni tribute album has come out yet? If so, what's the name? Thanks, Betsy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 17:17:11 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) Bob wrote: >I had a Time Magazine cover on my wall - it featured all 3 of >Charlie's >Angel's and I liked Kate Jackson the best anyway... And Helen responded: >That's funny, so did I..... I'll admit, so did I. Not that I actually watched Charlie's Angels - was it because I was too old? I dunno but I never even wanted to watch it. I don't think anyone in my house watched it, so there may have been something better on another channel. I wasn't into TV in any big way in my teens. i preferred to lock myself in my room and play my guitar. However, I always liked Kate Jackson. She seemed more "real" than the others. Not conventionally "pretty" in the usual overdone beauty-queen kind of way, but she was cute, and she seemed friendly and intelligent. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:19:07 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Biography - NJC- NJC-NJC - now it's FFFFFarrrrrrah <> Catherine, check out "The Apostle" with a brilliant Robert Duvall & Farrah. She's great, the film is astounding! Bob NP: Tom Petty, "Refugee" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 17:23:51 +0000 From: M.D.Quinn@shu.ac.uk (Mike QUINN\(CMS\)) Subject: Laurel (age 5) sings Joni From Mike Quinn: Greetings everyone, I have just joined JMDL and wanted to share this with you all. I take my five year old daughter Laurel to school every morning and we often sing together as we cross the school fields. On Monday we did our rendition of BSN (at least verse one and the chorus). When we arrived at school Laurel continued singing BSN in a lovely voice and caught the attention of her teacher who exclaimed "That's beautiful! I know some of the words to that song too, you must sing it to the class" Later that day, after their morning milk break, Laurel sang BSN to the rest of the class. Could this be one of the youngest public performances of a Joni song? My next challenge is to find another Joni song for her to sing (I'm always singing Joni songs around the house, well I try anyway). Possible choices: Night in the City: Too difficult? Song for Sharon: Great song, too many words for a 5 year old? DJRD: Would that make me Don Juan ? Man from Mars: Our cat went missing... TTT:....it came back. Circle Game: Good for out of tune voices, so we can all join in. Let me know if you have any better choices. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:38:24 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Laurel (age 5) sings Joni Mike said: <> Hiya Mike! and Welcome... <> Like you say, probably easier to figure the ones she SHOULDN'T sing. "Smokin" is nice and short but probably not something you want to encourage her to sing! :~) Seriously, I'd shoot for Big Yellow Taxi... Bob NP: Tome Petty, "Don't Do Me Like That" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 17:42:19 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: BSN and Fielding (njc) Evian writes: >Imagine, BSN and a new Fielding book in the same month! Of course, >with >the pathetic rate that cdnow ships things to Canada, BSN will >be in the >bargain-bin before it ever arrives... Has anyone in Canada, or outside the US, ever had things shipped to them from CDNow using the express delivery service? If so, do you think it might be worth the extra $12 or so (that's US dollars) to get it here sooner? If I have to wait a week, I might as well wait 2-4 weeks and save myself a few bucks. Has anyone ever used this service? Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 17:47:39 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Big Yellow Taxi Philip says, of BYT (oh cripes, an acronym!): >It's a welcome change lately to hear Joni blasting though the >house instead of Robbie Williams. This must be admit-my-ignorance/confessional day. I've seen the name Robbie Williams mentioned before. Who he? Qu'est-ce qu'un Robbie Williams? Is he someone my kids would likely know about? What is/are his big hit(s)? Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 17:48:55 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: WTRF - Henley to Joni on Ritchie (NJC) Catherine McKay wrote: > > > >As for negro, does it not come from negra, the Spanish word for black? > > It is the Spanish word for black. It's probably not so much the meaning of > the word in translation, i understand that, I was just wondering if that is where the word came from. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 17:51:16 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) Anita produced a lovely bumper sticker: Kill A Queer For Christ. Catherine McKay wrote: > I know who Anita Bryant is (all those guldarn OJ commercials they used to > show up here on TV, before she opened her mouth once too often about the > "evils" of gay-ness and got canned, for which we are eternally grateful). > But WHO is John Rocker? (I honestly don't know.) > > Catherine (in Toronto) > cateri@hotmail.com > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 17:50:16 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Biography - NJC- NJC-NJC - now it's FFFFFarrrrrrah Don Rowe wrote: > --- Catherine McKay wrote, in > response to catman: > > > > >Farah is no longer the girl from CA. > > Actually Farrah is a fellow Texan by birth ... a > white, female, heterosexual Texan -- by all the best > indications I have. ;-) Now I just knew I should have written out Charlie's Angels and not CA!!! > > > Don Rowe > > ===== > "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 17:54:47 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Big Yellow Taxi Catherine McKay wrote: > Philip says, of BYT (oh cripes, an acronym!): > >It's a welcome change lately to hear Joni blasting though the > >house instead of Robbie Williams. Well I might not want him blasting thru my house but he could blast in my bed anytime. He's a filthy looking devil. > > > This must be admit-my-ignorance/confessional day. I've seen the name Robbie > Williams mentioned before. Who he? Qu'est-ce qu'un Robbie Williams? Is he > someone my kids would likely know about? What is/are his big hit(s)? > > Catherine (in Toronto) > cateri@hotmail.com > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:55:27 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: Re: thoughts on Alternate Blue On Thu, 3 Feb 2000 CarltonCT@aol.com wrote: > It reminds me of reading that Joni got upset when she heard the cassette > version of C&S and discovered they had reordered the songs. Yes! I have one of those reordered cassettes. "Just Like This Train" is moved from after "Down to You" on side 2 to after "Free Man in Paris" on side 1. - --David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:00:28 -0500 From: "Neil E. Orts" Subject: Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) Catman wrote: >> But since it was brought up, what did the gay men here put on their walls >> when they were teenagers? > >If I had been able to have a man up >there, i have no idea who i would have had. i know I fancied Lee Majors when i >was about 16. Well, I did have a Six Million Dollar Man poster up! A couple of Super-Hero posters. If I'd had it, I probably would have put up Lynda Carter as Wonder Woman. (I was and still am a comics nut.) I remember a Star Trek: The Motion Picture poster up and being fascinated by . . . oh shoot, lost his name. The guy who played the new captain. I'm sure someone will name him almost immediately. He's a looker, to be sure. Farrah's poster was pretty much forbidden in my small town. I recall a guy who had gotten his hands on a copy and carried it around too show his buds. It was so wrinkled and worn by the end of the day, I doubt you could still make out her nipple. Of course, I never understood the furor. Wouldn't for several more years. - -Neil prefers Major's nipples ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Neil E. Orts * Director/Student Services * Office of Graduate Studies * It's easy to hang onto a sinking ship University of Texas Austin * The hard part's letting go. Main 101 -- 512/232-3626 * neo@mail.utexas.edu * -Jeff Talmadge fax: 512/475-8851 * ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 13:03:47 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Big Yellow Taxi - now NJC Catherine McKay wrote: > Philip says, of BYT (oh cripes, an acronym!): > >It's a welcome change lately to hear Joni blasting though the > >house instead of Robbie Williams. > > This must be admit-my-ignorance/confessional day. I've seen the name Robbie > Williams mentioned before. Who he? Qu'est-ce qu'un Robbie Williams? Is he > someone my kids would likely know about? What is/are his big hit(s)? This may be more than you want to know. Jerry Robbie Williams Biography During his time as a member of the phenomenally successful UK boy band Take That, Robbie Williams was always something of an outsider, fighting with the management and resenting the excessively pre-packaged nature of the enterprise. It surprised few when he left the band, following a string of disputes, in the summer of 1995 to pursue a solo career which, after a few false starts, saw Robbie grow to be possibly the UK's most prominent media figure. He took his time in his solo venture and spent most of 1995 hanging out with the likes of Noel Gallagher and Goldie. As he explained during an infamous interview with Michael Parkinson, he left his mother's house one Christmas telling her, "I'm going out", and he didn't get back until the next year. It was a long year of heavy partying, drinking and drugs. Robbie put on considerable weight and his exploits and girth were both chronicled with equal fascination by the gossip columns - ironically paving the way for the mammoth media profile that he was to enjoy (?) at the end of the decade. Robbie's debut solo release was a cover of George Michael's 'Freedom '90'. Released late in 1996, it failed to impress the critics but reached number 1. His second single, 1997's 'Old Before I Die', was more openly welcomed, living up to his earlier promise that his solo material would be influenced by Brit pop. He released his first solo album, 'Life Thru a Lens', in 1997. Two major factors combined to send Robbie's career into orbit, the anthemic appeal of the single 'Angels' which remains an airplay favourite to this day and the singer's performance at the Glastonbury festival in 1995 which confirmed his status a true entertainer in the classic style. With the release of his second album, the suggestively titled 'I've Been Expecting You' in 1998, and the singles 'Millennium', 'No Regrets' and 'Strong', Robbie's stature just continues to grow. The press are no less interested in his private life, particularly his 'on, 'off' relationship with 24-year-old All Saints singer Nicole Appleton which now finally looks to have been laid to rest. In the 1998 Brit Awards, 'Angels' won best single and Robbie walked away with a record 6 awards, winning Best Male Artist, Best Video ('Millennium') and Best Single ('Angels'). Most recently, Robbie has been concentrating his attentions on cracking the US market with 'The Ego Has Landed', a US only album made up of the best from the first two albums being promoted in the states. Appearances on The Late Show with David Letterman and at the MTV Awards have helped Robbie enjoy some success, but he must have been disappointed with the failure of 'Millennium' to make the US billboard 100. Consolation came in the form of two prestigious Ivor Novello Awards where Robbie and co-writer Guy Chambers were rewarded for their songwriting skills. The visibly moved star told the assembled crowd: "I'm really, really overwhelmed.." Robbie has been famously outspoken about his former Take That bandmates and those involved in the management of the band. In his most recent and harshest outburst to date, he told a German magazine: "The band had the creativity of mentally unstable morons and was spawned by Satan. The manager Nigel Martin-Smith really mucked me up emotionally. He managed me and manipulated me from when I was 16. It was the devil's pact - he gave you fame and riches, you gave him your soul and 25 per cent of the takings." Recent performances at a secret gig in Watford and at Dunlin's Slane castle have proved that Robbie has lost none of his capacity to enetertain. The world awaits his next move... James Poletti ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:10:06 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: "Political correctness," etc. (NJC) WAR!!!! Wars, Catherine? Who said anything about wars? I was just spouting off on the PC issue, honest. And, although I assumed I would be accused of talking out the wrong orifice, I didn't expect "wars." What a treat! It's like getting sprinkles on your ice cream cone for free! What will it be, Babe? Sly British Insults at Thirty Paces Sexually Discriminating Slurs from Behind Barbed Wire (Strawberry) Blonde Jokes vs. Wymyn Jokes The Battle of Caustic Witticisms Or should we just segue straight to the Jerry Springer show and hit each other with chairs? You name it! Battle! Following an age-old Bardic custom of killing your enemies then singing about it... Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:14:37 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) Excuse me, Neil, but I think "nipple" is the word we're not allowed to say on this list. I keep seeing all these references to the n--- word, so I'm sure it's against list policy. Please try to keep it PC in the future, there, bud! Harper Lou Farrah's poster was pretty much forbidden in my small town. I recall a guy who had gotten his hands on a copy and carried it around too show his buds. It was so wrinkled and worn by the end of the day, I doubt you could still make out her nipple. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 13:18:54 -0500 From: LL Subject: RE: re: "Political correctness" (NJC) At 09:51 AM 2/3/00 -0600, Pitassi, Mary wrote: >LLDeMerle writes: > >"Hm, well, I'm no conservative, but do know of blind folks who think it's a >ridiculous hoot to be referred to as "sightless," among other things, and >someone I know has a grandma who bristles at the term "Native American," >and hisses, "I'm an *Indian,* for God's sake!" There's no accounting for >tastes, it seems. :)" > >But how often does this really happen? I don't have official research on this. Perhaps you have better answers to this question than I do, however, as I said, this has been my experience. >I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "an individual view." A conclusion based on your own experience or observations. >If you mean >it's my opinion, it certainly is, but, for what that's worth, it's one that >I know is shared by at least some others. Not to nitpick, however, in recent discussion in a group of people from a variety of backgrounds and belief systems, there were more who leaned toward my opinion than not, however, this may be due to the subjects being a group of writers who have may have more sensitive views on the use of words and "language in general." ?? > What I've been trying to say is >that, just as over-enthusiastic exemplars of tendencies that have been >labeled "PC," like that government official you mentioned, may obscure hard >realities by glossing over them, so some conservatives use the term "PC" and >the thoughts and actions that it supposedly encompasses to discredit the >political opposition and perhaps avoid having to solve real problems. Naturally, there are over-the-top examples in any category, however, it is very difficult (personally) to generalize due to the nature of human beings in all of their variety. I'm admittedly poor at pigeon-holing folks...though I will say that some conservatives I know are socially active and caring people who put people ahead of politics. I don't know their views on PC, so there may well be contradictions in these cases, though uninvestigated. I guess you just can't stop folks from being individuals. :) lyric@usadatanet.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 18:18:56 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: RE: re: "Political correctness" (NJC) Mary writes: >What I've been trying to say is that, just as over-enthusiastic >exemplars >of tendencies that have been labeled "PC," like that >government official >you mentioned, may obscure hard realities by >glossing over them, so some >conservatives use the term "PC" and >the thoughts and actions that it supposedly encompasses to discredit >the >political opposition and perhaps avoid having to solve real >problems. Mary, you've raised a really interesting and good point. Oftentimes people can be dismissed by making fun of them, putting them down. If you laugh at the so-called "PC" labels, you are in effect trying to erase them. I work in a political environment and having worked here for 20 years or so as a nameless, faceless (and most important, neutral) bureaucrat, it's interesting to see buzz words come and go based on who's in charge. A few years ago, our provincial government was quite socialist and was handing out grants left, right and centre to various cultural groups in an effort to correct some of the inequities that exist in some of our systems because we expect everyone to be the same. So, a group that provides counselling to battered women might get a grant to deal with a specific ethnic group that didn't deal with things the same way a white anglo-saxon would - the grant might go to a group dealing just with that ethnic group, or to provide training and insight into how to be sensitive to the different cultures. When election time came, and a lot of voters were getting up-in-arms about taxes and government spending, one of the things the now-current ruling party did was to emphasize that they were no longer going to answer to "interest groups". While saying it in such a way as to suggest that the squeaky wheel shouldn't always get the grease, which is not necessarily a bad thing, they were also suggesting (underneath all that), that maybe minorities were getting too much. As such, this appealed to the bigots or perhaps not-so-much-bigots-as-frightened "white" people, and the current government, a very conservative, was voted in by a huge majority. Welfare payments were reduced and workfare programs were started. This isn't necessarily a bad thing - if you can provide training to people on welfare who are able and willing to work, but don't necessarily have the skills, it's actually a good thing. Unfortunately, there are many people who fell between the cracks, many of these single mothers who seem to be damned if they do work (because they need to wait for subsidized daycare) and damned if they don't work (because they don't make as much money and are viewed as lazy freeloaders). Amazing to me is the fact that people should need to consider "PC-ness" at all. If people were just courteous and did unto others as they would have done unto them, we wouldn't have the namecalling and the paranoia that some "foreigner" might take "my" job away and so on. Interestingly, in North America and Australia at least, most of us are immigrants, or children or grandchildren or immigrants. And yet, those who have been here longer than some others seem to think they have more rights than those who have been here less time. Maybe I'm expecting too much - most people, it seems, can't see beyond their own backyards, if even that far. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 18:24:28 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Juno Award Nominees (now NJC) > >Interesting how it takes an American to tell a Canadian that! > >Who ya callin' a 'Murricun? Even though I've lived here for >mumbledy-mumble years, I'm still a Brit. Well, English. Well, >my passport is now an EU compliant one, instead of the neat, >gold-embossed hardcover books British passports USED to be. Oops, a non-Canadian, then. We're always the last to hear! Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 18:25:22 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: thoughts on Alternate Blue NJC ><> > >A toilet bowl cleaner...:~D > LOL - Tres funnee. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 18:33:01 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Laurel (age 5) sings Joni Mike writes: >Greetings everyone, I have just joined JMDL and wanted to share this with >you >all. Welcome, Mike! >I take my five year old daughter Laurel to school every morning and we >often >sing together as we cross the school fields. On Monday we did our rendition >of >BSN (at least verse one and the chorus). When we arrived at school Laurel >continued singing BSN in a lovely voice and caught the attention of her >teacher >who exclaimed "That's beautiful! I know some of the words to that song >too, >you must sing it to the class" >Later that day, after their morning milk break, Laurel sang BSN to the rest >of >the class. >Could this be one of the youngest public performances of a Joni song? I'm amazed a 5-year-old would be able to sing a Joni song - you must be raising the kid right! >My next challenge is to find another Joni song for her to sing (I'm always >singing Joni songs around the house, well I try anyway). >Possible choices: >Night in the City: Too difficult? I think if she can sing BSN, she can handle "Night in the City" >Song for Sharon: Great song, too many words for a 5 year old? Definitely, and kind of depressing "A woman I knew just drowned herself..." >Circle Game: Good for out of tune voices, so we can all join in. The Circle Game would be good. When I was a kid and going to Sunday Mass, we had a folk mass - the guy who did the singing and guitar playing would often sing "The Circle Game" at mass. I'm not quite sure how he got away with it - my Dad was fond of pointing out that Christians would be more likely to view life as a spiral rather than a circle, however... Here's a few I think would be good for kids: Morning Morgantown, from LOTC Big Yellow Taxi (the ubiquitous) Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 18:36:01 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) Catman writes: >Anita produced a lovely bumper sticker: Kill A Queer For Christ. I hope that was just a reaaaaally sick joke on your part - I knew AB was evil but seriously... Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:43:42 -0600 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: RE: Re: "Politically correct" (NJC) LL, I wrote, and you replied: ">I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "an individual view." A conclusion based on your own experience or observations." But isn't this all any of us can do: conclude based on our own experience and observations? It seems to me that you were doing exactly the same thing by citing the examples of the Indian grandmother, etc. And, while there's safety and perhaps, validation in numbers, individual perceptions should be regarded as valid, as far as they go. You then replied to something else I wrote: ">If you mean >it's my opinion, it certainly is, but, for what that's worth, it's one that >I know is shared by at least some others. Not to nitpick, however, in recent discussion in a group of people from a variety of backgrounds and belief systems, there were more who leaned toward my opinion than not, however, this may be due to the subjects being a group of writers who have may have more sensitive views on the use of words and "language in general." ??" Hmm. . . if your math is right, there could be lots of reasons for that: more people of certain viewpoints on the list; all the died-in-the-wool PCers were busy during this thread; the fact that the view you express is one that's played up OVER and OVER again in the press, so people are familiar with it? However, and also not to nitpick, sensitivity to the use of words and 'language in general' would NOT necessarily lead one to agree with the particular views you espouse! As with anything else, it may; it may not. But I can tell you that my own deep respect for the nuances of language is precisely what caused me to jump into this debate in the first place, and to became so irritated with the overuse (misuse) of the term term "PC" to cover a multitude of ill-defined sins. Finally, you write, "I guess you just can't stop folks from being individuals. :)" No, you can't--even those who have been labeled "PC"! They just keep having their own darned thoughts, quite apart from what everyone else thinks they are (or should be) thinking. Cheers, Mary. P.S. I'd be happy to take this off-list, if everyone would be more than happy to move on to something else! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 14:15:22 -0500 From: LL Subject: RE: Re: "Politically correct" (NJC) At 12:43 PM 2/3/00 -0600, Pitassi, Mary wrote: >LL, > >I wrote, and you replied: > >">I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "an individual view." > > >A conclusion based on your own experience or observations." > >But isn't this all any of us can do: conclude based on our own experience >and observations? It seems to me that you were doing exactly the same thing >by citing the examples of the Indian grandmother, etc. And, while there's >safety and perhaps, validation in numbers, individual perceptions should be >regarded as valid, as far as they go. Exactly. >You then replied to something else I wrote: > >">If you mean > >it's my opinion, it certainly is, but, for what that's worth, it's one that > >I know is shared by at least some others. > > >Not to nitpick, however, in recent discussion in a group of people from a >variety of backgrounds and belief systems, there were more who leaned >toward my opinion than not, however, this may be due to the subjects being >a group of writers who have may have more sensitive views on the use of >words and "language in general." ??" > >Hmm. . . if your math is right, there could be lots of reasons for that: >more people of certain viewpoints on the list; all the died-in-the-wool >PCers were busy during this thread; the fact that the view you express is >one that's played up OVER and OVER again in the press, so people are >familiar with it? That's rather doubtful, since this group is fairly independent and most of them are also relatively irreverent of the press in light of some actually "being" the press, however, whether the view I express is one played over and over again in the press, remains for me, specifically, to be seen and may well depend on what papers one reads. In addition, not having expounded on or defended my views, there are likely qualifying statements that may lead you to determine that I may possibly be a reasonable person, even perhaps one of sound mind, rather than simply another "lemming" leaping along with a "pop-op." :) >However, and also not to nitpick, sensitivity to the use of words and >'language in general' would NOT necessarily lead one to agree with the >particular views you espouse! It was not my intent to persuade you to think that only my view was espoused. >As with anything else, it may; it may not. >But I can tell you that my own deep respect for the nuances of language is >precisely what caused me to jump into this debate in the first place, and to >became so irritated with the overuse (misuse) of the term term "PC" to cover >a multitude of ill-defined sins. I misunderstood, then, and apologize. I was under the impression that your objective was to dissuade bigotry, perceived or otherwise. >P.S. I'd be happy to take this off-list, if everyone would be more than >happy to move on to something else! If we are able to continue, I think you will see that we are not as opposed on this issue as you seem to think. lyric@usadatanet.net ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #70 **************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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