From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #69 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, February 3 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 069 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- re: Hartman and Lush Life NJC [Robert Holliston ] Re: live albums (njc) ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: most depressing song (NJC) ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Be Bop Deluxe NJC ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: soda NJC ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: thoughts on Alternate Blue [Deb Messling ] Wally- [jw1327@rcn.com] Big Yellow Taxi [Paul Scott ] Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #67 [w evans ] shortlife [Roman ] Don & Farrah NJC [Roman ] Re: Lush Life gender NJC [waytoblu@mindspring.com] Re: Covers That Resonate With The Music/DJRD [pyramus ] Re: viscous lists (NJC) [catman ] Re: British? (was Re: WTRF...) (NJC) [catman ] Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #67NJC [catman ] Re: "Political correctness," etc. (NJC) [Jason Maloney ] Re: Guess which cd I got???? What do you think? [Susan McNamara ] Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Big Yellow Taxi [Susan McNamara ] Re: most depressing song (NJC) [Jerry Notaro ] Re: alternate blue (njc) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Farrah (njc) [evian ] Re: Big Yellow Taxi [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: alternate blue (njc) [Brian Gross ] Re: Don & Farrah NJC ["Reuben Bell" ] Re: Biography - now definitely NJC ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Hejira vs DJRD ["Catherine McKay" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 00:44:31 -0800 From: Robert Holliston Subject: re: Hartman and Lush Life NJC Yes! I second Mark and Victor - the Johnny Hartman/John Coltrane rendition of Lush Life is a real treasure - in fact so is the whole album. It only has 6 songs on it, but they're all wonderful (another personal favorite is My One and Only Love). I just finished reading David Hajdu's bio of Strayhorn which is called, appropriately, Lush Life. He was the wind beneath Ellington's wings :-) Cheers, Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:59:45 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: live albums (njc) Evian wrote: >Counting down until the Feb. 28th release of the Bridget >Jones Diary sequel... pre-order now, peoples! I'M BACK!!! Just when you thought it was safe to read your email, Helen returns from the deepest, darkest wilds of Northland, NZ! Spent a week or two at the beach reading countless books (I think 20+), playing endless games of Pokemon Monopoly (guess what my niece and nephew got for Xmas!), and card games. Nothing like 10 days at the beach with no TV, and no radio reception, for improving the mind, not to mention the conversation skills! By the way, TTT sounds wonderful at low volume in a tent late at night, when the only other sound is the surf crashing on the beach.... So now that I've cleared my 2200+ emails - yes, you read that correctly, next time I'm going to unsub from everything! - I can start jumping in on all these two-week old threads! Actually I just wanted to mention that I read "The Edge of Reason" (the Bridget Jones sequel) at the beach, and laughed even harder than I did reading the first one! Absolutely a "must-read", particularly the magic mushroom incident in Bali....! Now brace yourself, there could be a lot of mail coming up.... Helen P.S. Evian - rant all you want about Stevie, especially Silver Springs. How they decided to leave that off Rumours, I'll never know! _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 23:06:29 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: most depressing song (NJC) The most depressing song I ever heard is one which only about 10-20 people in the world have heard. When I was about 19, my best friends boyfriend (Pat) was a bass player in a local band. One night we were at the pub, and Pat's brother Rossy was with us. We'd all had a few too many, but when Rossy got up to leave, none of us thought to stop him from driving - the naivete (or stupidness) of youth. Pat came back to our place for the night, and the next morning got the call to go and identify Rossy's body at the hospital, as he'd driven off the road and been killed - a nightmare of a morning, that I'll never forget! Anyway, that day, the lead guitarist in his band wrote the following song, which they recorded the next day (God knows how Pat could play - maybe he found it cathartic): The years will roll on by And I'll... oh, I'll live my life But time will not change This empty place, you've left behind And the years will roll on by The years, they'll roll on by When I'm old and I've lived my life Part of it will have been for you My children will be yours, my wife, your wife My life will be mine to share with you And the years will roll on by The years, they'll roll on by The years will roll on by But nothing will change the way I feel I'll move on but you'll still be on my mind You are my brother, you are my brother And the years will roll on by The years, they'll roll on by I still can't read these lyrics or listen to the song, without the tears starting. There's nothing like being personally involved in a song to hit you emotionally. Maybe that's Joni's secret too. Helen _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 23:09:57 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Be Bop Deluxe NJC John wrote: >Their base player, Charlie Tumahai, played in a number of Australian >bands in the late 1960s and early 1970s before going to England and >joining Be Bop Deluxe. He returned to his birthplace, New Zealand, in >1985 and joined the great Kiwi rock/reggae band Herbs as base player >and lead singer. Tragically, he died of a heart attack on 21 December >1995 while working as a volunteer at the Auckland District Court >assisting young Maori defendants and their families. Herbs was a great band. I think they've pretty much gone their separate ways since Charlie's death, but they were very popular (still are actually). They were heavily involved in the whole "nuclear-free Pacific" movement as well. There's one song that Charlie sings called "Sensitive To A Smile" which I absolutely love (Catgirl - you must have heard it by now!) which was probably their biggest hit here. Helen _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 23:12:40 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: soda NJC tube wrote: >Thanks for all the soda jerk info. There is no British equivalent at >all, and as far as I know, there never has been. I was always envious of >kids in American books and films who were obviously consuming such >delightful things at the soda fountain. You just brought back a wonderful memory of "Kendall's", a cafe/restaurant in Whangarei (where I grew up) which had one of the only remaining true soda fountains left in NZ. It's since been pulled down, but I used to love going in there after going to the movies! Helen _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 23:19:09 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) Bob wrote: >But seriously, since we're on the topic...I was too cheap to shell for the >classic Farrah poster, so I had a Time Magazine cover on my wall - it >featured all 3 of Charlie's Angel's and I liked Kate Jackson the best >anyway... That's funny, so did I..... We used to play "Charlie's Angels" when we were kids. My friend Andrea was always Jaclyn Smith, and I was always Kate Jackson. We used to force her little brother to play, and he was always Bosley. I guess we could have made him be Farrah, he did have blonde hair..... The posters I remember having were The Osmonds (including Donny, Marie and a chubby pre-pubescent Jimmy), Saturday Night Fever (with John Travolta in the classic pose in the middle, surrounded by lots of stills from the movie, and a poster of the current All Black rugby team, which toured South Africa! Oh, and Abba, in white jumpsuits, in front of the helicopter (it came free with the Arrival album - a big selling point)! Helen _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 23:30:52 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Joni's recording method There's been recent discussions about Joni's tuning and writing methods, but I'm curious about her recording methods, ie. does she play guitar and sing at the same time, or lay down the guitar first, then sing, or what? Does anyone know? I've always pictured her recording with the guitar at the same time, especially since a lot of her songs don't follow conventional rhyming patterns, you know, fitting 73 syllables into a 4/4 beat! Likewise with the piano. I can't imagine her playing the piano for "Blue" or "The Last Time I Saw Richard" then singing over the top of it - the performances are too "raw" (hopefully you know what I mean by that)! Anyone have any answers/thoughts/ideas? Or has this been done to death in the past, and I've just missed it! Helen _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 06:42:20 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: thoughts on Alternate Blue Where did you get Alternate Blue? Has that been treed? Does Alternate Blue have the original version of All I Want, or is it the version we're all familiar with? At 02:09 AM 2/3/00 EST, you wrote: >I was listening to Alternate Blue tonight > Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ I love cats. They give the home a heartbeat. - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 07:18:06 -0400 From: jw1327@rcn.com Subject: Wally- No recent word on the list...does anyone have any new information on Wally? James ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:30:04 -0000 From: Paul Scott Subject: Big Yellow Taxi Hello, I'm making a series about protest songs for BBC World Service. I'm including Big Yellow Taxi as an environmental song. Does anyone know of articles or information that explains Joni's inspiration for this song (each programme tries to include a clip from the singer/songwriter about why they wrote the song) and also, does anyone know who the last paragraph is referring to and its meaning in relation to the rest of the song? I've recorded a discussion group who talk about the song and they have their own opinions, but it would be great if I could find out a more definite answer. Thanks for any help that you may be able to give. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:35:18 -0500 (EST) From: w evans Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #67 > But since it was brought up, what did the gay men here put on their walls > when they were teenagers? I don't ask that in any sort of judgemental way, > I'm just curious...I suppose they couldn't put beefcake male posters up > unless they had outed to their parents, which is a minority I'm guessing. (My > sister didn't out to my parents until she was in her thirties). > Or maybe they did - I don't know, that's why I'm asking...so you see Don > Rocker-Bryant, you have opened up an interesting topic. > > Bob > Nope, wasn't out.... so I put up Beatles album covers on my walls. :o) Never tipped off the folks, but it was quite nice. It's too bad that the new Paul single for "No Other Baby" wasn't out at the time, cuz it's got a full-color (colorized) poster of Paul at about 15 playing his guitar. (I may have it framed anyways :o) BTW, I just realized that this entire digest #67, except for one post about HOSL, was entirely NJC. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:17:40 +0100 From: Roman Subject: shortlife > but after getting to my 40's, I've found my philosophical base > shift from "Life is weird and I can't figure it out" to "life is short > and love is precious." yep, that's a great line. I second that emotion alrighty. tube ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 13:35:04 +0100 From: Roman Subject: Don & Farrah NJC Farrah Fawcett was considered a world-class babe by everyone I knew here in England as well, but I always thought she was kind of weird looking, too American, almost alien, like a dragon fly. But Jaclyn Smith was another matter. At my school reunion last year, shortly after his arrival, one of my dearest old friends, a hip, modern, open-minded, forthright and charming fellow, addressed the assembled company thus: "statistically, one in 20 people are gay, so I just want to know which one of us it is" He said this not as a redneck's challenge, but in good faith. Nobody came forward. There were a few absentees that night, and perhaps they were the gay classmates who decided they didn't want to ever return to the bleak homophobic provincial setting of their youth, not even for one night. But I cite this example to simply support Don - In my schooldays we also assumed everyone in our little world was straight, and though that world was a tiny one in a rural backwater, I think that assumption was justified. Don's sin (if any) was one of omission, though I think it would do little to raise standards of literature if every sentence was written to include a politically correct listing of all the people and things that the sentence was NOT about. Don didn't write much about what Sri Lankan fishermen were hanging on their bedroom walls back in 1976 either, but that didn't diminish the force of his argument to see a TV biog of Farrah Fawcett go into production. Don was writing about HIS world, HIS experience of adolescence, and it was undisputably a very common one. Don asserts (albeit with tongue in cheek) Fawcett's value as public-interest biographical material in the well justified belief that he was far from alone in his schoolboy fantasies concerning this actress. The assumption or promotion of Farrah Fawcett's cultural value as a de rigueur male heterosexual pin-up icon is no less or no more valid than the assumption or promotion of Jodie Foster's value as a gay icon, (not discouraged but not encouraged either by Foster herself). What, I think, really upset Don was the second poster's inference that Don's teenage world was probably intolerent or non-inclusive of black people as well as gay people: >Of course you mean an entire generation of *heterosexual* male >adolescents, don't you Don? (Probably mostly white, too, huh?) This slur was probably unintentional, but it does somewhat appear as a desire to publicly tar Don as not just a possible 'gay-basher' but a possible 'nigger-basher' as well, a criticism so far removed from the spirit of Don's original posting about Farrah Fawcett, as to be ridiculous. Don was right to come back with guns blazing in self-defence. tube. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:52:36 -0500 From: waytoblu@mindspring.com Subject: Re: Lush Life gender NJC >Gender enters the song at the beginning of 'verse' two "All the men I >knew had sad and sullen faces." the correct lyrics read..."The girls I knew had sad and sullen grey faces, with distingue traces" I don't think gender is an issue in this song as the identity of the singer remains a mystery...it could easily be a man or a woman. That particular line is just an image in the song which I think only works the way it was written-"girls with sad and sullen grey faces." I don't think of this song as a gay song or a straight song and see nothing to indicate it as such...its just a song about longing and resignation to disappointment and dissillusionment. I've never liked it when singers have changed the lyrics of a song in order to suit a particular gender. John Prine wrote "Angel From Montgomery" from a female perspective which seems to work fine. Victor http://www.mindspring.com/~waytoblu/Tangled.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:46:32 +0000 From: pyramus Subject: Re: Covers That Resonate With The Music/DJRD Bob wrote: The colors on the cover, the blue and the rust, are they considered opposite colors? I mean from a color spectrum standpoint, would the simple contrast of those two colors represent the duality of the record? ======= Absolutely Bob. The juxtaposition of colours and shades (and ideas) permeates through much of Joni's work it seems to me. Just off the top of my head.. Colour - ------ "Red is angry, green is jealous." "Miami sky red as meat...and green sea air" "Pawn shops glitter like gold tooth caps...in the grey decay.." Shade - ----- "...all the house lights left up bright...I'm gonna blow this damn candle out..." "When forests rise to block the light...I'll challenge them with flashes from a brighter time.." All of Shadows and Light of course. These are a painters lyrics, and for me personally are the most fascinating part of Joni's work. The 'duality' of her work is undoubted. I saw a video clip of an interview with Joni where she was anxious to point out that she didn't write purely from a woman's point of view but tried to see both sides (now?) of an argument. I always think of Joni's lyrics as little word paintings where you can look in and see yourself but also see through to bits of Joni as well. Like looking .."in the mirrors of a modern bank..." and back out through "...the windows of a hotel room." Kevin. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:48:28 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc)(md) There were three posters that moved with me to virtually every one of the dorm 15 rooms and apartments that I lived in during my "poster" phase. (1) An incredible picture of the most beautiful woman ever in the world Sophia Loren. Simple picture really with her in a turtleneck sweater with that incredible face. Big smile. What a babe. You can have Farrah. (2) The actual poster from the final Beatle concert at Candlestick park that my sister got for me from the shoe store she worked in. (3) a full page ad from Billboard magazine which is a Union Jack and in simple script at the bottom :"There will always be The WHo". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:55:02 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: (no subject) > Give it another listen...... I listen to it on a regular basis and still skip the tracks i don't like' > > > DF - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:55:57 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: viscous lists (NJC) I am confused about this spelling of viscous. This spelling sounds like vis-kus which is something else. Should this be viscious? I don't think i have actually seen the word written down before. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:55:44 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: British? (was Re: WTRF...) (NJC) > doesn't > that seem to deny (for instance) Indian, Pakistani, and Caribbean > immigrants in Britain a cultural identity? Many of these immigrants are 3rd and 4th generation. > > > --David - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:55:37 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) > > > But seriously, since we're on the topic...I was too cheap to shell for the > classic Farrah poster, so I had a Time Magazine cover on my wall - it > featured all 3 of Charlie's Angel's and I liked Kate Jackson the best > anyway... I always thought kate was the most attractive. her face had charcter as well as beauty. > > > But since it was brought up, what did the gay men here put on their walls > when they were teenagers? I had Carly's album covers all over the walls!If I had been able to have a man up there, i have no idea who i would have had. i know I fancied Lee Majors when i was about 16. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:55:48 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: WTRF - Henley to Joni on Ritchie (NJC) David Wright wrote: > Alan Lorimer wrote: > > > > Political correctness is a scary concept in itself. Isn't what you believe > > in your heart more important than what you say? > > Doesn't what you say express what's in your heart? Not necessarily. Perhaps a lack of knowledge or language makes it difficult to express what is in one's heart. Older people in partricular, who are used to old fashioned words like queer or negro may use them and not be racist or homophobic in the least. I don't think everyone who uses 'incorrect' language is a bigot.I too agree with Mary Pitassis's thoughts on this subject. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:55:30 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: "Political correctness," etc. (NJC) > > > Once again, as someone very much on the *outside* of society, marginalised and > having to fight for my vaildity among both the medical profession and society at > large (just to get money each week to live on), I believe I have a viewpoint > that is as relevant as any of the more widely-known minorities and other types > people suffering some kind of adversity. I don't like making this point too > often, but sometimes I get the impression that I fall into a minority that > doesn't quite have the same profile when it comes to discrimination and those > who are oppressed or up against it. That is in no way a dismissal or > belittlement of ANY minority of any kind. I thinkt his has much to with invisability. my disability is not apprent. I imagine yours is not cos you stay in a lot.I am waiting to find out later today if my penison is being taken away. They garee I am not employable but that is not something they consider when deciding these things. I have recieved my pension since I was 18 years old. I am now 41. Okay, i am fortunate, I live with John and he erans good money. But the loss of this will cost me 520 pounds a month.(inc rent and tax relief). I will then be totally dependant upon john. okay, so that is what happens to many married people-but we are not and legally are not recognized as a couple. so this is unfair. > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:55:40 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: WTRF - Henley to Joni on Ritchie (NJC) Jason Maloney wrote: > catman wrote: > > > Nationality has never formed part of my identity, so i fail to understand why people get > > so passionate it. > > Perhaps the difference is that you spent many years travelling and living abroad, and > therefore as aresult you maybe have no *defining* sense of place, at least in context of > *who* you feel you are? I can understand that, it makes logical sense to me. Of course > nationality doesn't have to be something that defines anyone. But in a descriptive context, > that's what *being* British would suggest to me...that you were born in one of the four home > nations. These days I don't think it has any deeper definition than that. If all you've known > is one particular country, culture and lifestyle, then it does shape you in some way. How > much, if anything, depends on the individual. Yes I think you are correct. I think being born and raised in one place would make a great difference to the way you viwed the world. I don't have a 'home', just where ever I happen to live in the present. I tend to think of Austarlia as home becuase I became a teen there and lived there the longest i lived anywhere. > > > > As for British culture, I am not sure what you mean by it. I for one > > would be glad to see the back of discrimiantion, the class system, the superior attitude, > > the whingeing, the lack of passion, the repression/suppression of self, the inability to > > get things done. > > Me too! As far as I can make out, all these are no nearer becoming a thing of the past. I > wish they were. To me, you've just described New Labour exactly.... New Labour is a Tory party under a different name. I just found out that my firends have to pay £2000 pound a year for their daughter to go to Uni. They receive £140 per week disability pension!!!! (I don't think the pound sign shows up on email, god knows why, but these sums are pounds). > > > > that doesn't happen-except in the heads of those racists who like to give out this > > propaganda i.e the right wing press and the yobs who can;t get offf there arse and do > > somthing for themselves. > > I was referring to the more recent - and mostly illegal - immigrants who take advantage of > the system in various ways. By coincidence there was a prog this morning about this very subject. those illegal immigrants are housed in 'prisons' and deported. Thos that aren't are the same as any other immigrant. Also, many do come from 'european' countries or ex russian staes. I feel we do have a responsibilty-especially as we interferred in the first place. But if you go back over time, we not only took from India and Africa from from these countries too. The Empire stretched a long way. Apart from that, i think we could show compassion to peoples no matter where they are from. Our lives might be difficult but not by comparison. It seems we agree generally. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 13:02:11 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Don & Farrah NJC > the gay > classmates who decided they didn't want to ever return to the bleak > homophobic provincial setting of their youth, Read this and then this: > assumed everyone in our little world was straight, and though that world > was a tiny one in a rural backwater, I think that assumption was > justified. if it is true that that assumption was made, then the first is hardly likely to be true! > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 13:03:37 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #67NJC > > > BTW, I just realized that this entire digest #67, except for one post > about HOSL, was entirely NJC. Just like this post :-) - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:32:11 +0000 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: "Political correctness," etc. (NJC) David, You're probably right about the unconvincing nature of any such scenario, but my theory was a rhetorical question mostly, just taking the situation and seeing if there might be another angle...all my comments were followed by "?"s, and the sentence you quote would have read better if I'd put "was Henley.....?", rather than "Henley was.....?". I agree with you that the subsequent appearance in print of what was surely a private exchange could have mortified Henley, regardless on the original context, and yes.....one wonders about the wisdom of Joni making such a remark public knowledge when it was likely to translate poorly taken out of its intial context. Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:28:00 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: HOSL Catgirl said: <> Synchronicity...this morning while continuing in the JM Companion (almost done, dammit) I read the wonderful essay about 'Joni's Aviary', great takes on "Seagull", "Sweet Bird", "Amelia", and "Beat of Black Wings"...the writer not only analyzes the lyrics but also how the music and the chord shapes empasize what the song is saying. Even for someone who can't relate much to the technical music analysis, it was fascinating reading...again, highly recommended! ***** After that it'll be "Long Time Gone" about David Crosby. Bob NP: "Black Crow" (S&L version...smokin!!!!!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 00:24:58 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: Lush Life gender NJC Tube said: >Can anyone make suggestions or lists of well-known songs that >are written to be either definitely male, female, gay or genderless? Great idea for a thread :-) An example which is genderless is "Me and Bobby McGee". Bobby can refer to either a Male or a Female as can the singer. Just mentioning this because I've got a great Janis Joplin version of this song, a solo acoustic version. Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Tasmania ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:29:48 -0500 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Guess which cd I got???? What do you think? > >What the heck IS that line she says? It's printed on the liner as "your >notches, liberation doll". Is that what she's saying and if so, what the >heck does it mean? > I can't remember where I heard her say it: some article or interview, but the line is "Your notches, liberation doll" and Joni says the notches refer to the wine glasses in the previous line: A room full of glasses Your notches liberation doll So the man is basically saying "you call me a drunk, but those dead men are yours!!" Take care, Sue ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 00:36:28 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: viscous lists (NJC) Catman said >I am confused about this spelling of viscous. This spelling sounds like >vis-kus which is something else. Should this be viscious? I don't think i >have actually seen the word written down before. It depends what you mean. Viscous basically means "thick", which may describe some of the members of these lists ;-) But what we really meant was *vicious* :-) So what am I doing up at this time on a Friday morning? ...There's no rest for the politically incorrect ;-) Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Van Diemans Land ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 08:43:46 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) > > > But since it was brought up, what did the gay men here put on their walls > > when they were teenagers? I had Streisand pictures everywhere. Especially the poster of her in the short leopard coat. I loved that. Jerry np: Deep Forest - Made In Japan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 08:09:28 -0600 From: evian Subject: alternate blue (njc) Clark wrote: > I was listening to Alternate Blue tonight > Ummm.... What is Alternate Blue????????????? Evian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:05:36 -0500 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Big Yellow Taxi Hi Paul: If I were you, I would do a search on the JMDL articles page. http://www.jmdl.com/articles/ I know there was an interview with Joni where she said she was inspired to write Big Yellow Taxi when she checked into a fancy hotel in Hawaii and when she looked out her window all she could see of the beauty of the island was a big fat parking lot. So the line "they paved paradise and put up a parking lot..." was the line that started the song going. Good luck with your series! Take care, Sue >Hello, > >I'm making a series about protest songs for BBC World Service. I'm including >Big Yellow Taxi as an environmental song. Does anyone know of articles or >information that explains Joni's inspiration for this song (each programme >tries to include a clip from the singer/songwriter about why they wrote the >song) and also, does anyone know who the last paragraph is referring to and >its meaning in relation to the rest of the song? I've recorded a discussion >group who talk about the song and they have their own opinions, but it would >be great if I could find out a more definite answer. > >Thanks for any help that you may be able to give. > >Paul ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:08:51 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: most depressing song (NJC) To hark back to this thread, one I had forgotten but heard last week in the film Boys Don't Cry was Codeine (sung Co-dine.) Buffy St. Marie sang the version I knew, but this was done by a male group. Heartbreaking song, heartbreaking movie. Jerry np: Betty Buckley - Broadway ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:18:06 -0500 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) I saw Farrah Fawcette (aka Leaky)on the Howard Stern show a while back. She seemed as though she was drugged up. What's happening to her? Heather At 12:54 AM 2/3/00 EST, CaTGirl627@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 2/2/2000 6:35:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, >catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: > ><< After all, we are constantly and given a chance to correct it, we do!So i >don't think anyone > thinks you are a mean old daddy relalted to Ms Bryant. But you did write >what you wrote, making assumtpions about and excluding millions. >> > >Well I htink I like to say something here. First off I was quite surprised >that Farrah would need a biography on her but truthfully her poster sold >literally thousands of copies. Someone was buying them. I remember that >poster and I never even owned it. It was a big deal back then because she >you could see her nipple thru her bathing suit. THAT made it all the more >reason youths (whoever they may be) bought that poster. HER face was >EVERYWHERE!!! >I remember ALL the girls wanting Farrah Fawcette HAIR!! So I guess there are >TWO reasons for doing her bio her *do* and her *don't*!! >LOL!! >Catgirl > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 08:24:59 -0600 From: evian Subject: BSN and Fielding (njc) Helen wrote: > Actually I just wanted to mention that I read "The Edge of Reason" (the > Bridget Jones sequel) at the beach, and laughed even harder than I did > reading the first one! Absolutely a "must-read", particularly the magic > mushroom incident in Bali....! > > Oh, I can't wait! Mushrooms in Bali?? LOLOL, I can just imagine! I'm counting down the days until it is released here... Imagine, BSN and a new Fielding book in the same month! Of course, with the pathetic rate that cdnow ships things to Canada, BSN will be in the bargain-bin before it ever arrives, and I just *know* that I am going to get some email from Chapters saying "Dear Valued Customer, We are sorry, but your order for the Fielding book is now on back-order even though you have pre-ordered because we know you are a compulsive shopper on our site and we realize that we can push you around and you will keep coming back, so we'll ship it in May, or whenever the hell we feel damn good and ready". And to make matters worse, I just started my annual winter diet. I'm like a chipmunk -- I gain 25lbs like clock-work every fall/winter, then I catch a good look at myself in the mirror every February and say "If I saw you sitting on a beach, I'd laugh my ass off" and then the next 3 months are spent dieting and trying to look graceful and not out of breath on a treadmill. This year, I think I'm going to join the gym with the sauna and hot tub and spend 5 mins on the treadmill and 55 mins. soaking and sweating in the sauna -- It's something that Bridget Jones would be able to rationalize, so it's good enough for me! Glad you're back, Helen! Evian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:26:43 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: alternate blue (njc) <> AB is the original concept of Blue...all the songs are the same, except for the absence of "Richard" and the addition of "Hunter" & "Urge For Going". Plus the songs are ordered differently...don't have it in front of me, so I can't recall the exact sequencing... The versions of "This Flight Tonight", "Carey", etc. are the same versions that made it the Blue we all know & love. As always, I'll be glad to make a CD or cassette copy of AB for whoever wants one, just let me know...the friar's been taking a breather of late since the Master herself is about to burst forth with new songs. But I've got more stuff brewing... Bob NP: Coyote from S&L ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 08:33:33 -0600 From: evian Subject: Farrah (njc) LOL, like I said in my post last night, what other list would let me post compulsively in a row.....(I am trying to get some thesis work done today and trying to prepare something to teach tonight, and it's not even 9 a.m. and I am ready to say screw it and do anything BUT this crap, so the list is functioning as my crutch of procrastination... Thank you, you beautiful people!). Anyway, since the talk is on Farrah (who, even though I saw her reappearance on Letterman when she was more *normal*, she still freaks the hell out of me.... it's like she's spent the past decade sniffing glue or something), I just had ask if anyone remembered the infamous Farrah Shampoo?? Remember, her big ole head was on the bottle? My Dad has never bounced back from the fact that they took it off the market! If only I had kept a bottle of it, I could have made a fortune on ebay. Evian (Gonna go surf the web for half an hour.... this other crap can wait!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:09:19 -0000 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Big Yellow Taxi - ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Scott > I'm making a series about protest songs for BBC World Service. I'm including > Big Yellow Taxi as an environmental song. The BBC World Service - now there's an example of the best of Britishness. But that's another topic. I recall from a concert that Big Yellow Taxi was written on a trip to Hawaii where she was appalled by the mass tourism and over developement of the place. Still I wouldn't mind going there, just to see how bad it is for myself. The little kids who play loud music in my house love the Big Yellow Taxi remixes. It's a welcome change lately to hear Joni blasting though the house instead of Robbie Williams. Whoever produced the remixes did a great job, I love the way he stretched Joni' s vocals to fit the beat. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 06:43:02 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: alternate blue (njc) Evian asked: > <> And BobM wrote: > AB is the original concept of Blue...all the songs are the same, except for > the absence of "Richard" and the addition of "Hunter" & "Urge For Going". > Plus the songs are ordered differently...don't have it in front of me, so I > can't recall the exact sequencing... > > The versions of "This Flight Tonight", "Carey", etc. are the same versions > that made it the Blue we all know & love. I'll jump in here to help out my buddy Bob: Blue - Original Coupling Reprise 2038 B Digitally Mastered Direct from the Magtec Reel Tape 1. Carey 2. Little Green 3. A Case Of You 4. Hunter 5. Blue 6. California 7. My Old Man 8. Urge For Going 9. This Flight Tonight 10. River From JMDL-Trading CD Tree#2 And I just want to say how truly wonderful a place the JMDL really is. Thank you, one and all, for making it like that. Later, Brian np: HOSL (to relisten to Don't Interrupt the Sorrow in light of SueMac's post) ===== "No paper thin walls, no folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 06:44:27 PST From: "Reuben Bell" Subject: Re: Don & Farrah NJC Don, I inferred from Michael's earlier post (quoted below) that he was kidding about the Farrah Fawcet thing, and I responded to that light-hearted jab. I don't think either of us intended to flame you. He, of course, can speak from himself, but I assumed from his smiley face that he was poking fun. No harm intended! :) Reuben >From: Roman >Don was writing about HIS world, HIS experience of adolescence, and it was >undisputably a very common one. >What, I think, really upset Don was the second poster's inference that >Don's teenage world was probably intolerent or non-inclusive of black >people as well as gay people: > >"Of course you mean an entire generation of *heterosexual* male >adolescents, don't you Don? (Probably mostly white, too, huh?" > >This slur was probably unintentional, but it does somewhat appear as a >desire to publicly tar Don as not just a possible 'gay-basher' ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:12:46 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Biography - now definitely NJC Farrah Fawcett??? > > >As a red-blooded American male child of the 70s, I've >gotta call a flag down on this one from Catherine. >Farrah -- rivalled only distantly by Stevie Nicks and >Ann and Nancy Wilson -- is single-handedly responsible >for imprisoning an entire generation of male >adolsecents in a fantasy world from which there was no >escape. And with what? A POSTER!! That rates a >Biography segment in my book ... and yes, I still HAVE >the poster. ;-) Of course you do, dear. If anyone were going to reply to my Farrah-dissing, I just KNEW it would be you. I wish I had bet on it... Darn. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:12:54 -0600 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: RE: "Political correctness," etc. (NJC) Jason writes: "Of course, but is asking ppl to *think before they speak* enforcing PC-ness? I can't quite see that link, not completely." Regarding the first sentence: no, I honestly don't think it is. And the notion of asking people to think before they speak as "enforcing PC-ness" assumes that there's something called "PC-ness" out there that is uniform and defined. One of my basic points is that I think that reports of the existence of "PC," like those of Mark Twain's death, have been greatly exaggerated! I don't really care what people say, as long as they think about it first. And I don't think that's asking too much in order to achieve a more civil society. You also write: "Thoughtfullness should be one of the basic decent practices in society, I wholeheartedly agree." We're in complete agreement there! Thanks for replying, Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:22:10 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: "Political correctness," etc. (NJC) Jumping into this one, I agree with you Jason. There is such a thing as a "black" singing voice. And I don't think it's racist to label it as such. For example, to me Barry White has that definitive "black baritone" sound. One of my friends, Robin Work, is a phenomenal jazz vocalist. And everyone who hears her CD swears she must be black. She's not, she just has a certain quality in her voice, reminiscent of some of the great female R&B vocalists. Funny this should come up. This past weekend, I had a gig at Baltimore Aquarium and afterwards, wound down at the Marriott bar, which has a neat old snookers table. I was invited to be a fourth on some games of doubles with three black guys, who used the term "niggah" toward each other. At one point, my partner handed me the cue and said, "Your turn, niggah." I let out an uncontrollable snicker, because no one ever called me that before. I'm an obvious Irishman, red hair and all. They laughed, and the one guy said, "That's a compliment, man." Anyway, my point is that I think political correctness is a crock. Words can mean so many different things, so it's senseless to develop this impossible network of "rules." People who insist on being politically correct are covering up their own tendency toward prejudice, and they're just making guidelines so they don't risk exposing their own prejudice to others. Honesty without judgment is never wrong. Short people are short. It's not a judgment, it's just a statement of fact. But, for some reason, the consensus is that you can't even recognize differences any more. Not all people are equal or the same, but the PC camp expects us to use words that deny our differences. It's just dishonest. For crying out loud, my friend Robin does sound like a black woman when she sings. And using the word "Negro" doesn't automatically make someone a racist! True, some words can be hurtful, but changing the words doesn't necessarily change the thought behind them. I know people who use the "proper" term "African-American" who are truly bigots. And I know homophobic people who use "alternative lifestyles" to describe gay people whom they truly detest. Obviously, since some black people call themselves "niggah" or gays use the word "faggot" freely, the prejudice is certainly not in the word itself. I can understand that my using the n--- word would be offensive to blacks because I'm Caucasian, so I would never use it. I avoid using words such as cripple, deaf and dumb, etc., because they sound bad to me. Likewise, I would never use the sexually neutral words like wymyn, because it seem absolutely ludicrous to me -- every "woman" I know is worthy of respect. Throughout history, the word woman has represented dignity, strength, ability, compassion, beauty, etc. Why change it? I think we should be happy to celebrate one another for our differences, as well as appreciate one another for our common bonds. The world does not need more spoonfed political correctness. It needs more people brave enough to think for themselves and caring enough to respect their fellow humans on their own. "Compelled by prescribed standards, all our own ideals we fight..." Tripping clumsily as he steps off the soapbox, Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:29:44 -0600 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: RE: "Vertically challenged" (NJC) Alan wrote: "Will someone please tell me that "vertically challenged" is not a serious term. I thought it was a joke!" Yeah, I think it *is* a joke, or certainly started out that way. My point is that I've seen, heard and read statements by certain self-described conservatives picking up this "joke" (and other terms like it), running with it, and using it to discredit the supposed thought of the "PC" left. Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:49:39 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Hejira vs DJRD >From someone who knows nothing of the technicalities fo music-I cannnot >hear any similarity at all between Hejira and DJRD. They sound completely >different. Lyrically they are too. hejira is by far the better album, at >least to my ears. >i seem to recall it written on this list that Joni just threw DJRD together >cos she had an obligation to fill. it certainly is a strange album. My >favourite tracks being Talk To Me, The Tenth World and Dreamland. Paprika >Plains is incredibly boring to my ears. For some reason, I never got DJRD when it came out. I only got it a few months ago and loved it right from the start. I agree that there are parts of it that don't seem to fit. The one that stands out as not really *belonging* (to me) is "Jericho". Funny thing because I believe Joni wrote "Jericho" quite a bit before DJRD came out. I've only seen her twice in concert and I think it was the first time I saw her (which would have been in 1972 or '73 when she played Massey Hall in Toronto in between the releases of "Blue" and "FTR".) I may be mistaken, but I thought she did sing it there. Or else maybe it was the next time I saw her (again in Toronto at the CNE stadium or something like that - it was outdoors) - this would have been post WTRF and pre-DED and yes, she had the *bad* perm at the time. Memory fails... To get to my point (yeesh, finally!) DJRD is certainly right now my most favouritest Joni album. I may get over it, but, for the most part, with a few exceptions (I don't care much for "Off Night Backstreet" either - I wonder if it's the presence of the evil Don Henley on it?) I really love it. Yes, I do like Paprika Plains, the whole darn thing, and I also like the Tenth World. Part of it is the way the music segues from one song to the next. I find that "Otis and Marlena", "The Tenth World" and "Dreamland" which, coincidentally, follow one another, work as a bit of a suite, or whatever the correct musical term might be. They *fit* together. It starts out with Otis and Marlena arriving in the Florida hotel, the unreality of this golden world compared to reality, continuing with "It's all a dream she has awake", then it ends with Joni's dreamy harmonies blending into "The Tenth World" which to me is a kind of hypnotic, trancelike dance (perhaps induced by drugs, or alcohol, or perhaps just by the music itself, the percussion and the voices weaving in and out), then segues into "Dreamland" which moves from Florida to a more remote tropical location and then back again to the plane heading back to Canada - it's like she's trying to shake herself out of the trance, but she's still mostly in Dreamland. Not to say that I don't like "Hejira" - I do, but I have to be in the right mood for it. And not to say that "DJRD" will continue to be my favourite. Probably not. I would be hardpressed to rate Joni's albums in any order of favourite-ness - the two that don't do much for me right now are "Ladies of the Canyon" and "Clouds" (or "Joni Mitchell"). That could change. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #69 **************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?