From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #68 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, February 3 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 068 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- NJC Re: Joni Mention on "Who Wants to be a Millionaire?" [SCJoniGuy@aol.c] (no subject) [dave fairall / beth miller ] Re: HOSL [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Vertically challenged (NJC) ["Alan Lorimer" ] Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: "Political correctness," etc. (NJC) [David Wright ] Re: NJC Full Circle ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: Wales (NJC) [some millers ] thoughts on Alternate Blue [CarltonCT@aol.com] Re: viscous lists (NJC) [Roman ] Lush Life gender NJC [Roman ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 22:10:07 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: Joni Mention on "Who Wants to be a Millionaire?" In a message dated 2/2/00 7:45:44 PM US Central Standard Time, WirlyPearl@aol.com writes: << Did anyone else see it? >> No Pearl, but I DID see Dylan on Dharma & Greg last night...that was pretty funny! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 22:54:28 -0600 From: dave fairall / beth miller Subject: (no subject) To Catman's comments: >From someone who knows nothing of the technicalities fo music-I cannnot hear any similarity at all between Hejira and DJRD. They sound completely different. Lyrically they are too. hejira is by far the better album, at least to my ears. i seem to recall it written on this list that Joni just threw DJRD together cos she had an obligation to fill. it certainly is a strange album. My favourite tracks being Talk To Me, The Tenth World and Dreamland. Paprika Plains is incredibly boring to my ears. I don't think it takes a musical ear necessarily to appreciate the incredible textures and marvelous musical colors the individual players on DJRT exhibit. Wayne Shorter and Joni on Jehrico for instance, the composition itself, and Jaco throughout, consistently create special moments...not often found on a studio recording. I agree that Paprika Plains is somewhat tiresome, but the album is nothing if not unpredictable, which I think adds to it's charm. Give it another listen...... DF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:51:35 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: HOSL In a message dated 2/2/2000 9:26:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, wrodgers@blast.net writes: << HOSL is one of my favorite albums period. I hear in it the obvious theme of disillusionment with the false gods of suburbanites, but more important for me it really hits home with the bittersweet melancholy of getting older. With In France They Kiss On Main Street I feel all the joy of young love and Sweet Bird just nails middle age with the line "Out on some borderline, some mark of in-between, I laid down golden in time and woke up vanishing." That's what I get out of it anyway. Walter >> You know Walter, I never looked at HOSL that way befor but I see it. Especially in Sweetbird when she says.... all these vain promises on beauty jars, somewhere with your wings on time you must be laughing, Behind our eyes, calendars of our lives, circled with compromise, Sweetbird of time and change you must be laughing. To me this all sounds like getting old (which happens to be right where I am out right now) and dealing with the lines that were not there befor and thinking back to al the things we wanted to do but never took the time to do them...time certainly flies...... Catgirl NP Sweetbird ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:35:30 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: Vertically challenged (NJC) Will someone please tell me that "vertically challenged" is not a serious term. I thought it was a joke! Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Tasmania ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 00:54:39 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: I really shouldn't start this but ... (njc) In a message dated 2/2/2000 6:35:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: << After all, we are constantly and given a chance to correct it, we do!So i don't think anyone thinks you are a mean old daddy relalted to Ms Bryant. But you did write what you wrote, making assumtpions about and excluding millions. >> Well I htink I like to say something here. First off I was quite surprised that Farrah would need a biography on her but truthfully her poster sold literally thousands of copies. Someone was buying them. I remember that poster and I never even owned it. It was a big deal back then because she you could see her nipple thru her bathing suit. THAT made it all the more reason youths (whoever they may be) bought that poster. HER face was EVERYWHERE!!! I remember ALL the girls wanting Farrah Fawcette HAIR!! So I guess there are TWO reasons for doing her bio her *do* and her *don't*!! LOL!! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 01:38:53 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: Re: "Political correctness," etc. (NJC) Jason Maloney wrote: > In effect, Henley was merely saying "you thought a black singer could do > the song/vocal better than me?", wherein black is not a slur, rather a > reference to a difference in style/sound between himself and a singer > such as Ritchie? That seems very unconvincing to me. Joni said that Lionel Richie sounded better in the key the song was in, but what would Lionel Richie's blackness have to do with that? Black singers don't all sound the same, or sing in a single register or style, so I don't see how "black" can describe the difference between two singers' voices enough to be at all meaningful. (And this context doesn't exactly explain the choice of the word "negro" either.) Why use the racial classification unless the reference is to being replaced not by a *different* singer, but by a *black* singer? > You are now addressing a wider picture, which is obviously perfectly > valid and connected to this thread, but in a case of two individuals > with an established rapport between them having a conversation alone, I > would say that it is the two of them who would in that particular case > determine the nature, and humour (or otherwise) of what was said. Yes, but this once-private conversation was subsequently printed publicly, or else we wouldn't be having this discussion. One of my thoughts throughout this thread is that Henley, even and perhaps *especially* if the exchange took place in an acceptable context (if there is one), must have been mortified to see Joni repeating this story in print -- i.e., putting the remarks another, very different context -- and if Joni felt the remarks took place in an acceptable context, didn't she realize that it wouldn't exactly translate? - --David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 00:53:47 -0600 From: evian Subject: mailing lists (njc) Oh God, the EBTG list sounds horrid. You should check out the Stevie Nicks newsgroup -- the biggest bunch of freaky, hate-filled, semi-stalkers I have ever seen. They seriously gave me the willies, and this one person, who was truly nuts and was at war with the whole bunch of them, would even email Stevie's fan-letter-answering-lady and "tattle" on these other people in the newsgroup -- it was so creepy, I subscribed to it for quite a while just because the bizarreness was fascinating. I have never really had much luck with other mailing lists. The Joni list was the first one I joined, and at first, I was intimidated as all hell. I kept thinking "I'm going to reply to the whole digest, and they will curse me" and "they all know each other and I have no clue of these in-jokes" and "What the hell do these abbreviations mean" and "WTF is a guitar tab and/or a VG-8" and "so-and-so just sent me a rude email to remember to use njc, and I am sure they are reporting me to my isp and I will be punished somehow" and every other insecure thing you could think of. Thank God I stuck it out and got to know so many of you. This list is such a great place, and I love the dynamics of it -- where else could I post compulsively in a row topics such as "Help, my cat is in heat, what the hell do I do to shut her up", or "DED is the best thing since sliced bread, but WTRF don't turn me on like a radio" or "PC language is either good or bad (depending on my mood)", or "I've got this huge thing for Stevie Nicks, but don't mistake me for one of her creepy newsgroup fanatical followers" or "Courtney Love turns me on, should I seek treatment?" or "You've got to read this book, it'll make you pee yourself" or "Let's debate who we think Joni wrote this song about" and even "My preferred choice of underwear is..." This is truly a unique list. Even when we don't always see eye to eye or get along, it's still a safe, comforting, lively place. I've given a few other lists a try, but haven't stayed long. The people are either too rude, or the list is too restricted, or if you say anything against the artist in question, you might as well be burned at the stake. Also, I finally read the parodies of the songs on the JMDL site, and I would prefer to spend my time reading posts by this hillarious bunch than sit and read drivel by a bunch of creepy Stevie fans any day! Anyway, I've rambled on since I just got back from computer training in Regina for my new job, where they have the ONLY Starbucks in Saskatchewan, so I've consumed enough caffeine today to choke a horse. Evian p.s. Got an email when I got home telling me that Indigo shipped my JM Companion... please please please let it get here by Friday!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 01:51:16 -0800 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: NJC Full Circle Patrick wrote: << hey eric, i think you owe that smartass chuck an apology. he wrote: <<< I always thought she was singing *you're not just liberation doll*! *Notches* brings to mind bedposts.... >>> No, Patrick, Chuck was quoting me above. I'm the smartass who interpreted notches as bedposts. So I quess I owe myself an apology? E.T. NP: Hissing Demo CD Bonus Track Cherokee Louise (WOW what a powerful rendition!) __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 02:03:46 -0500 (EST) From: some millers Subject: Re: Wales (NJC) Winfried- I'm in total agreement with you about the beauty and surprising degree of accessibility present in Wales, though most of my experience was in the vicinity of the Brecon Beacons national park (staying in a very old stone home in Talgarth, complete with an 11th century castle tower on the grounds), with several side trips into the outlying area. I was there for a fortnight in 1988 with my brother and sister (who is also wheelchair dependant), and in a bit of synchronicity was just reviewing some slides from that trip about a week ago. I was looking forward to checking-out your trip-diary website, but when I used the link you provided below, I think I got some sort of message indicating there was a problem finding the site (though my understanding of the german language is virtually non-existent). Buenas noches- paul s.bethlehem, ny >Despite the hilly terrain, N.Wales proved to be surprisingly >wheelchair-accessible, too. I had no problems getting around. >See the North Wales page in my digital trip-diary >http://www.stud.uni-goettingen.de/~whuehn/Northwales.htm >(might look slightly offset on larger monitors) > >This place is Europe at its best IMO. Lots of green pastures to walk by, >and you're bound to constantly have your eyes on the land and the sky >as well! > >Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 02:09:56 EST From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: thoughts on Alternate Blue I was listening to Alternate Blue tonight and would theorize that the reason Good Samaritan didn't make it in is because it sounds very much like This Flight Tonight, one of those songs that means a lot to me, and I'm sure a lot of others, who have ever flown somewhere following a breakup. But the chords of the two songs are so similar, I believe the tuning is the same with the bass string so slack that it buzzes at the end of both songs. I also think that part of what makes BLUE Joni's ground breaking masterpiece is that the songs were arranged like STAS, C&S and HEJIRA where there seems to be an emotional and/or chronological order, something like an unwritten novel. Alternate Blue is kind of like CLOUDS, a typical collection of songs which aren't related, don't segue into each other. It reminds me of reading that Joni got upset when she heard the cassette version of C&S and discovered they had reordered the songs. - - Clark np: Moby ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 16:27:12 +0100 From: Roman Subject: Re: viscous lists (NJC) Alan Lorimer wrote: Tube said: > > Yeah, I tried a Doors list for a week or two once - They had me for > breakfast. I probably deserved it - you guys are too patient with me! Alan said: > You mean you joined a list where people took you seriously??? Cheeky blighter! tube ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 16:23:51 +0100 From: Roman Subject: Lush Life gender NJC Yes I can see now how it's not necessarily just a woman's song - it would make a lot of sense as a gay song. I've been influenced by only ever hearing women sing it. I've never heard a man sing it. It's sort of a loser's song. A victim's song. An alcoholic's song - A lush's song. Gender enters the song at the beginning of 'verse' two "All the men I knew had sad and sullen faces." You could replace 'men' with 'girls' and have a straight guy's song I suppose, or the singer could just be talking generally about drinking buddies on the barfly circuit, in which case the gender wouldn't matter too much. Read BUtterfield 8 for a flavour of this. Can anyone make suggestions or lists of well-known songs that are written to be either definitely male, female, gay or genderless? Speaking of Kate Bush, she frequently writes songs from a male perspective, as if it were a man singing - 'There goes a tenner, 'Pull out the Pin' for starters. "Just as we hit the green, I'd never been so happy to be alive" (Vietnam soldier) But then there's also vibrantly feminine stuff like 'Babooshka', 'Wedding List' and 'Get Outta my House' I am the concierge, chez moi honey Won't let you in for love no money my home, my house are barred and bolted and I.... won't let you in. WOW! Well, it's not strictly feminine I guess, and you could also put a gay slant on it if you really had to. tube (obviously you wont catch me quoting Joni lyrics on the Joni List - anything but,it seems ;-)) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #68 **************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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