From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #60 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Sunday, January 30 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 060 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: WTRF first listen [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: NJC: Cliqueish JMDL, [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: AGREE W/ KAKKI ["Mark T. Domyancich" ] Re: The buck starts here NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: WTRF first listen [MGVal@aol.com] Re: cliqueish? (NJC) [Michael Paz ] Re: first impressions [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: TI (was cliqueish?) [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Paz Fest NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Re: WTRF first listen ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: WTRF first listen [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Paz Fest NJC ["Mark or Travis" ] The VG8 thread, little JC ["Chuck EIsenhardt" ] re: WTRF ["Jerome Gonzales" ] Re: broad brush [Siresorrow@aol.com] NJC Nice is good; honest is better [dsk ] New sub seeks Joni VIDEOS [SoulQuest7@aol.com] Re: TI's sound [dsk ] WTRF first listen ["rick novosel" ] Re: Paz Fest NJC [Michael Paz ] Re: TI's sound [catman ] Re: WTRF first listen [catman ] Re: NJC Me'shell, year-end NJC [michael w yarbrough ] Re: cliqueish? [luvart@snet.net] hi there [Bounced Message ] Re: cliqueish? [Maggie McNally ] Off to tropic shores (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re : Top Five Joni (at a tangent)(NJC?) [Jason Maloney ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:11:15 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: WTRF first listen Emily said: << 3. why are the lyrics so (oh god i'm nervous to say this) bad? there are more empty references to "love" on this record than i can count -- staying away from easy "love" lyrics has always been what i cherished about our never-easy JM...yikes!>> Not sure that *bad* is the best choice of an adjective, Emily...My feel for this record has always been that after the Mingus and Shadows & Light complexities, she sought out (for commercial reasons and to re-ground herself) a "return-to-basics" pop & rock record. She covers Unchained Melody and You're so Square, and tosses in her own songs that are simple & easier to digest than say, God Must be a Boogie Man or A Wolf that Lives in Lindsay. <<4. two words: lionel richie?>> Like I said, she was making an effort to return to the commercial markets - since Lionel was selling about a million copies of "Can't Slow Down" every day, he was a logical choice, although since Joni usually flips the bird to commerce, it IS a little tough to take (You Dream Flat Tires btw is one of my faves off of the record, I love the imagery of the title alone). And of course the irony is that while the once platinum Ritchie is now musically extinct, Joni is still going strong! << 5. am i the only one reading some dirty double entendres into the lyrics for "wild things"? :) probably.>> Nope..."He came, she smiled, she thought she had him tamed but he was just as wild"...what else could it mean but using sexuality to manipulate another? This of course means that maybe some of the words are trickier than you give them credit for being....;~) << 7. what does "personal direction: elliot roberts" mean? (in the liner notes). personally, my direction would have been: joni, try writing another draft!>> He was her manager, I assumed it means that and nothing more... << bottom line: ain't it cool that joni cares so little about "being cool" and is so willing to be UNCOOL in this album, that has as one of its anthems an admonition to "be cool"...>> Sounds like you're talking yourself into appreciating it Emily. And, like you say, it WAS a risk in context of her prior output, trading off the state-of-the-art jazz musicians she was playing with to the band she uses here... << worried that my first "oh yuck, joni" response will oust me from the jmdl cool pool -- not that i was ever in it -- :) >> Not that such a pool exists, or that I'm a part of it, but I think you're "in the swim" of things as opposed to "skating on thin ice"! :~) Thanks for your post; WTRF is one of faves and doesn't get the attention it deserves in the pantheon I think. Bob NP: Tuck & Patti, "Adventures In Paradise" Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:15:59 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC: Cliqueish JMDL, In a message dated 1/30/00 10:05:20 AM US Central Standard Time, jlamadoo@one.net writes: << There is a small number of folks who have posting disease. Then there are some who post infrequently (like me) but who love the List dearly. >> The only *posting disease* I'm aware of is that some people send THE SAME post over & over & over....;~) Bob, poster boy for posting disease ;~D NP: Tuck & Patti, "All This Love" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:20:44 -0600 From: "Mark T. Domyancich" Subject: Re: AGREE W/ KAKKI At 5:20 PM -0600 1/29/00, dave fairall / beth miller wrote: >For those who >have heard DJRD for the first time in recent years, try going back and >listening to the popular music of the late 70s and then play DJRD and >you >may get some idea of just how out there it was at the time. This is interesting. I listened to DJRD for the first time in the spring of 98. It was recommded to me by someone that it is sort of the sequel to Hejira. I put it on and was really striked by how it wasn't the electric sound. The album does have a very seventies feel to it. The drums on Cotton Avenue, that wah-wah sound on DJRD, etc. Whatever way you look at it, Joni has always stayed true to her music. NP-the roof getting shoveled, Phish-Maze Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net http://home.revealed.net/Harpua ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:24:48 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: The buck starts here NJC In a message dated 1/30/00 10:38:16 AM US Central Standard Time, michaelpaz@worldnet.att.net writes: << SO DOES THIS MEAN "OUR" DATE IS OFF???? >> Yes, but I'm sure you won't have any problems finding willing subs...just remember, with us married guys, discretion is the key!! ;~) Changing the subject (quickly), I made a couple of Jonifest Sampler discs last night for my friend Dan, and revisited the Labor Day magic all over again...so much wonderful music, and such a great vibe. Bryan, Marian, Chuck, Terry, Wally K, Catgirl, even marcel's "absentee ballot" songs, what a wonderful collection! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:24:21 EST From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: WTRF first listen In a message dated 1/30/00 8:00:27 AM Pacific Standard Time, ekg200@is5.nyu.edu writes: << NP: "love" from WTRF (loving the sound of her voice, but oh lord if i wanted lyrics like these--despite their being copped from the bible or wordsworth or lewis carroll--i'd turn on the girly guile music!) >> There is a line in the biblical and Joni version of this song that always hits me very hard: "and when I became a woman, I put away childish things. And began to see, through a glass darkly." I think that so neatly sums up the very common problem of intimacy that so many people have. Think about it, as a kid, if you feel good about something, you usually jumped in and continued with the feeling good stuff. You wanted to be with your buddy and that was that. As adults, people often worry about exposing their own private cores, worry about how to share, what to share, what the sharing means, keeping score, getting hurt and on and on and on. They've lost that childish clarity. I can see where it could be schmaltzy, but if you really think about the lyrics in terms of how it relates to intimacy, it's really quite profound. MG np: Linda Ronstadt: Get Closer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:32:52 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: cliqueish? (NJC) CaTGirl627@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 1/29/2000 3:15:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, > jim50@hall7068.freeserve.co.uk writes: > > << Why does no one ever respond to my posts? > > I have introduced myself before, but despite your obvious love for Joni, I > find this mailing list somewhat 'clique-ish' > > Matthew > >> > NO clique here that I know of...what was that you wanted us or whoever to > respond to? > Inquiring Cats wanna know..... > Catgirl Hello Matthew- Sorry it took a slap in the face to get a rise out of me, but to tell you the truth I do not read all of the digests. I do not have the time. I have my specific interests on the list and tend to be mostly centered around recordings, concerts, and of course my friends. Which reminds me, Marian where the heck are you???? I have sent you a couple of emails but they have come back. Anyways, welcome to the list Matthew! Why don't you give us some of your background? Are you a musician? Do you know about JoniFest2000 in New Orleans the weekend of May 26??? Michael P.S. I do find the list to be a little cliquish in a way, but it would be hard to be close and intimate with 600+ people. I just found out that my old friend Paula in Milton, Florida is on the list and I still have never seen her post. She's one of those people who likes to watch! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:19:13 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: first impressions In a message dated 1/30/2000 12:58:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, wrodgers@blast.net writes: << I have found that over the years, other albums of Joni's have done sort of the same thing... different paths, different strings and ended in different places, but wove their way into me just the same. I think alot of it has to do with finding the real essence of what emotion joni was trying to express, and feel it the way she did. For me, it just takes time. Walter >> I feel the same way about some of her music. Sopme of it takes a few listens to to really *get it* whereas others just hit you straight on and just one listen is all it takes. I know DED was a big let down for me. I thought *what the HELL is she doing?* Now I have a greater appreciation of it. Now TI was an automatic mind blower. With the first note I said...she is back better then ever. Now keep in mind these are just my opinions..others may vary... ;o) Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:26:49 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: TI (was cliqueish?) In a message dated 1/30/2000 3:43:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, dsk11@bellatlantic.net writes: << Lots of people on the list love TI so I'm going to get verbally pummeled and told to listen, listen, listen to it again, but regardless of that, I have to say Joni's voice on TI is SOOOO depressing I can't stand listening to it. >> Not to sound MEAN but I think Joni writes her best (like alot of muscians do) when she is depressed or sad. That CD took me from the first note on Sunny Sunday to the last boom on Sire of Sorrow. I tend to be a malencholy type of person but I do like music that is happy and upbeat (ei Francis Dunnery). He is a GREAT writer and I love his music. I could dance all day to his stuff. Anyway getting back to Joan, maybe I like that cd alot for it was one of the first cd's with the correct tunings in the songbook so I learned to paly alot of the them and got alot more connected to the songs. Either way it is in my top 5 and will probably always be. Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:51:07 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Paz Fest NJC For those who remember the album Volunteers, do you recall that on the back of the album, designed like a newspaper, is the headline "Paz Chin-In Huge Success" and the story is of the 1st annual Paz Chin-In in Paz, South Dakota. The story tellls us that all the top bands arrived, played, and did "outstanding sets." Not sure what it means, actually, but it is a good sign for the Paz organized Joni event in May, yes? (the Rev) Vince PS: The article also includes the following: "Juff Gleento completely dazzled everyone by appearing on stage wearing glittering, sequined, and pearl-inlayed orange rinds!" Who here is going as Juff? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:42:32 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: WTRF first listen > Not sure that *bad* is the best choice of an adjective, Emily...My feel for > this record has always been that after the Mingus and Shadows & Light > complexities, she sought out (for commercial reasons and to re-ground > herself) a "return-to-basics" pop & rock record. > > Sounds like you're talking yourself into appreciating it Emily. And, like you > say, it WAS a risk in context of her prior output, trading off the > state-of-the-art jazz musicians she was playing with to the band she uses > here... I agree with some of what you're saying here, Bob, but I still don't see WTRF entirely as a 'return to basics' pop record, calculated to woo back a straying audience. I can still hear the jazz influence all over this record. 'Ladies Man', 'Moon at the Window' & 'Be Cool' in particular. She was already dabbling in covers of old rock & roll/pop songs in the 'Shadows & Light' sets with the inclusion of 'Why Do Fools Fall in Love'. WTRF also has the beginnings of the electronic edge that she would dive fully into on her next record 'Dog Eat Dog'. My feeling is that you can always hear some small element of everything Joni has done before in each new record. She may go in new directions but she always builds on what she already knows & incorporates that knowledge into her latest project. I think WTRF is a transition between the jazz influenced phase that peaked at 'Mingus' and the electronic sound of DED & CMIARS. It's not my favorite but I don't think it's 'girlie guile' full of goofy love anthems either. Lyrically, she's starting to pare down & be a bit looser, especially compared with the verbosity of Hejira & DRJD. But I don't think there is anything banal in these songs. As for Lionel Ritchie, well, Joni does occasionally like to duet, usually with a male voice and Ritchie was one of the flavors of the month at that time. And as far as being another voice or 'instrument' to use in the ensemble, he wasn't bad. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:09:20 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: WTRF first listen My complete and total first reaction to WTRF when I first heard it was: "She sure was in love with someone when she recorded this!" (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:01:21 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Paz Fest NJC > For those who remember the album Volunteers, do you recall that on the > back of the album, designed like a newspaper, is the headline "Paz > Chin-In Huge Success" and the story is of the 1st annual Paz Chin-In in > Paz, South Dakota. The story tellls us that all the top bands arrived, > played, and did "outstanding sets." > The Ho, The Ked & The Roland Stoves. And don't forget Mo Edison who 'introduced a new musical instrument; a large guitar-like apparatus with six three-foot-thick cables strung across a fifty-five-foot-long replica of the Golden Gate Bridge called a "Mandoleen"; and promptly blacked out South Dakota and five adjoining states for seventeen minutes by attempting to play "Lady of Spain" with feed back!' Paz, do you think that one could be hooked up to the VG8? I love the Airplane's off-the-wall humor. The 'Bark' album originally came wrapped in a facsimile of a brown paper grocery bag with JA on it in the style of the A&P grocery store logo. I wonder if Ian Anderson or somebody with Jethro Tull had seen the 'Volunteers' cover before coming up with the idea for 'Thick As A Brick'. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:03:50 -0500 From: "Chuck EIsenhardt" Subject: The VG8 thread, little JC I love Michael's music the most. And his sexual prowess (duet's, trios, small ensembles, and once, an entire community orchestra)) is of course undeniable. I'm a little out to jury as to whether to call the VG8 a guitar synth or not. The VG8 discussion list lapses in and out of calling it a synth. Roland does insist on marketing it as a 'guitar system' and a 'modeler'. This doesn't change the fact that the underlying technology looks to me like a guitar synthesizer, albeit one that's purpose-built to model a wide variety of pickups, guitars, and amplifier combinations thru a combination of technologies, probably to include some waveform sampling and different digital synthesis techniques along with digital effects. I take Michael's point that it's a different animal than the Roland guitar synth's of yore. By the same token, most of the digital keyboards you see today, and for some time now, also can't be accurately called synthesizers. A few retro instruments have hit the market, but most of what you see like the Korg and Roland 'synth's' utilize a whole combination of sound modeling techniques - outright sampling, wave form sampling, FM synthesis and all kinds of proprietary synthesis technologies, as well as digital sequencing, which is actually multitrack recording. It might be another conceit, but some manufacturer are calling these thing's 'workstations'. For a time I played bass in a trio behind Roger Powell (later of Utopia) and he was playing SYNTEHSIZER's...an ARP 2600 with all the patchcords, an ARP Odyssey (the first polyphonic synth - two notes at a time!) as well as Rhodes. That was wild! We played Pork-pie Hat! The all-important scale and tuning features: If these last follow the model of keyboard 'systems' that I'm familiar with, then the patch information and the scaling/tuning are totally independent. In other words, choosing to play in a different scale does not limit other program options to layer patches, add effects, and so on. Metheny btw used the earlier Roland guitar synths and now also uses the VG8. (For the longest time I thought this was just 'bad' keyboard playing!) My .02 on Joni's using it: it's striking and unmistakable...it takes about two notes of any song on TTT coming over the radio to identify it. Nobody else sounds like this! But tricked up as it is, it sounds...um...like it's under glass or something. Not flat exactly, but so polished and smooth. Maybe devoid of the harshness that may come from a the edge of a pick hitting on a wound string...the sounds are cooked up in a laboratory and they do not allow for the subtleties and dynamism that can be conjured from an acoustic instrument. Yet? The Kurzweil 2000 series keyboards were the best-sounding acoustic grand sim I ever heard, yet each note was a discreet done-deal. The intermodulation, or the effect of strings in a box vibrating, being effected by the other strings in that box also vibrating, or even unstruck yet adding a simpathetic overtone, was missing. On problem with it (or difference) is that it's never slightly out-of-tune. To me, some of the charm in the sound of layered acoustic instruments lies in the slight imperfections among the tunings. Or the individual mark of a particular person's ear applied to the tuning. Or drift. Thinking 'Ladies of the Canyon', for example... Without looking, who can name the eight vegetables in V-8 juice? ChuckE ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:22:06 PST From: "Jerome Gonzales" Subject: re: WTRF Emily... Same feelings are held here. 'Chinese Cafe' is worth the price of admission. It's a shame it didn't close the set so that I'd have been more compelled to listen to it all the way through more often. Of course, the musicality of the album and Joni's singing do draw me in. And, as I've said about the album before, Joni's low points are higher than most artists' peaks. Of course, this album hs it's defenders. They've no doubt got great reasons for loving it. I personally don't and for all of the same reasons as you. I personally think DED and CMIAR were lyrical "rebounds"-even if they weren't completely succesful experiments (don't get me wrong-CMIAR is among my Joni top 5). Oh, and regarding this: >>4. two words: lionel richie? I've been wondering about this. Could someone fill in on whether or not this was after he left The Commodores. I'll let it slide if it was. (Also, the word Commodore has a Billie Holiday connection and we know how Joni loves Billie....) >>6. a very postmodern (and purposely ugly?) painting for >>the cover -- the "wild things" are only running fast and >>free on the TV screen, not in "real life." Nver looked at the cover in this perspective. Interesting that you'd point that out-the fictional is where wild things run fast. Hmmm.... OK, enough naive 22 year old heresy! Later, Jerome ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:35:05 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: broad brush In a message dated 1/29/00 6:15:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, FredNow@aol.com writes: << I think Siresorrow was referencing my quote in the JMDL Gallery: "It's not the shit, it's the fan," as in, "when the shit hits the fan." In other words, shit, in and of itself, is not that big a deal, everyone has some, it's when it hits the fan that it really becomes a problem. And the reason he referenced it is that a rant against certain composers was mistakenly attributed to me ... through a series of quoted and re-quoted quotes, the shit hit the fan and got really messy. >> thats exactly how my mind operated through that thread. not sure if that is good or bad, but it is the way it is. pat ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:52:34 -0500 From: dsk Subject: NJC Nice is good; honest is better Hi Kate, I'm paying attention to everything you've written and as always you make a lot of sense to me. In this case, we see things differently. Not a problem, for me at least. I think it's good to occasionally hash things out, and hope anyone tending toward annoyance by it has just ignored it all. There's nothing wrong with being nice, except when it gets in the way of being honest and being allowed to express one's feelings and thoughts, especially when a person feels passionately about something. I want to hear people honestly express what they think and how they feel, even if it's done kind of sloppily or it makes me feel uneasy in response. (Being insulting or deliberately hurtful and claiming it's "just being honest" is not what I'm talking about; in fact that's abuse, not honesty, and it's very rare on this list.) It may be more tolerable for some (most?) people, but I don't think it's at all "nice" to tell anyone else how they should behave. If you tell me how you feel about what I'm doing if it offends you, I'll try to change my ways. If you just give me a speech about how I SHOULD behave, there are going to be some disagreeable feelings produced, no matter how gently that speech is given. (I'm speaking generally here, not giving you a challenge, Kate. :-) This is all "in a perfect world" thinking of course; in reality communicating with other people, especially 600 at one time, is not so clearly defined and, as we see often here, can be a rather bumpy road (which to me is one of the things that makes it interesting). 'Nuf said on this subject, from me anyway. I'm going back to thinking about Joni... Take care, Debra Shea Kate in wintry Colorado asks: > What the hell's the matter with being nice? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:12:30 EST From: SoulQuest7@aol.com Subject: New sub seeks Joni VIDEOS If anyone knows of any good quality compilations of early Joni TV performances, pleases email me off-list with info. I've seen a couple of clip excerpts which has really wetted my appetite! My email is SoulQuest7@aol.com. I consider "Blue" to be the peak of the singer-songwriter genre. I'm not a "starry-eyed fanatic" as it said in the introduction to the list, but only because I reserve that for Jon Anderson of YES!! Here's my AOL profile which will tell more than you will ever want to know about me, but hey, it gets you lots of instant messages when you fill it to the brim with keywords!! === Nick Member Name: Nick Kokoshis. Music: Shakti, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Jon Anderson & YES, Kula Shaker, Annie Haslam & Renaissance, psychedelia, Joni Mitchell Location: Rockville, MD (by D.C.) Also love: INDIA, San Francisco, Provincetown MA, Madison WI. Influences: Mystics, Gandhi, Chaitanya, Matthew Fox, Bayard Rustin, Jay B. McDaniel, Andrew Harvey, Ma Jaya Sati Bhagavati, hippy hippies, Greenpeace, human rights org Birthdate: 2-12-57 Sex: Male Marital Status: Hubby: Rev. Ken South (UCC) Hobbies: Ahimsa & nonviolent religions; New Age; Jainism; gay & lesbian rights; vegetarian; Music: Beatles, Incredible String Band, Donovan, Meg Christian, Laura Nyro, Dougie MacLean, Phranc, Daevid Allen & Gong, Moody Blues, Phil Ochs, Romanovsky and Phillips Computers: Degree: B.A. in World Religions, American University, D.C. Path: Yoga of Love, Chanting, Meditation, liberal & green politics Occupation: Interests: engaged Buddhism, liberal Christianity & Judaism; Job: Professional student; Health Food business Personal Quote: If I'm not at home, accepting what I cannot change, I'm probably out, changing what I cannot accept. -Ashleigh Brilliant. The highest ideals of morality and ethics go hand in hand with the highest metaphysical and scientific conceptions. -Vivekananda ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:19:24 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: TI's sound CaTGirl627@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/30/2000 3:43:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, > dsk11@bellatlantic.net writes: > << > ...I have to > say Joni's voice on TI is SOOOO depressing I can't stand listening to it. >> > > Not to sound MEAN but I think Joni writes her best (like alot of muscians do) > when she is depressed or sad. That CD took me from the first note on Sunny > Sunday to the last boom on Sire of Sorrow. > ....Anyway getting back to Joan, maybe I like that cd alot for it was one of > the > first cd's with the correct tunings in the songbook so I learned to paly alot > of the them and got alot more connected to the songs. Either way it is in > my top 5 and will probably always be. Hi Catgirl, I can appreciate how much you and many others on the list love TI, which is why I don't want to completely dismiss it. It's not the songs themselves (I really like listening to the Magdalene Laundries on the Tears of Stone album) and I can certainly relate to melancholy and introspection. But on TI Joni herself sounds so depressed, it's downright painful to listen to. But no one else has ever mentioned this. Makes me wonder if my CD player is going at a slightly slower speed (it is 10 years old, maybe it's time for a new one? or at least needs the timing checked?). But then I play other things and they sound OK. And Joni's lower voice on TTT sounds great to me, so I don't think it's just the lower voice that disturbs me. Does anyone else think Joni sounds extremely depressed on TI or am I completely off the wall here? Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:34:58 -0800 From: "rick novosel" Subject: WTRF first listen Hey Emily, (the Rev) Vince hit it on the head: > My complete and total first reaction to WTRF when I first heard it was: > "She sure was in love with someone when she recorded this!" Exactly! I don't know about the CD cover but the vinyl version has a Joni painting of her being cuddly with Larry Klein. Mark chimes in: >I don't think it's 'girlie guile' full of goofy love anthems either. Right again. Emily, listen to the album again and try to see it as a picture of a woman entering a new and exhilarating relationship, one that, this time, feels like a real "grown-up" love, a "solid love". "Chinese Cafe/Unchained Melody" is the realization that we all get, that time has indeed passed, everything changes, but maybe one thing is constant, and that's the beauty and glory of love. "WTRF" is the start of the relationship, the skittish wild animal being lulled into "eating out of her hand". The rest of the album charts the give and take of carving out a relationship until the glorious shout of "Yes I do-I love you": Hey, I am in love and I like it, the world is perfect, I love you. Then comes "Love", a more thoughful take on the meaning of love after the exuberance of "Underneath the Streetlight". Yes, I am older now and I realize that there are things you have to do to keep love and things I will never understand about love but it's worth everything it takes to keep it. Needless to say WTRF is one of my faves. As I've said before, I relate to music more on a feeling level than a musically-analytical level and WTRF strikes a deep emotional chord inside me. I hope this very unusual attempt on my part to analyze a Joni recording will inspire you to listen again with new ears. All good things Rick PS I love the cover ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:40:37 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Paz Fest NJC Mark or Travis wrote: > > > For those who remember the album Volunteers, do you recall that on > the > > back of the album, designed like a newspaper, is the headline "Paz > > Chin-In Huge Success" and the story is of the 1st annual Paz Chin-In > in > > Paz, South Dakota. The story tellls us that all the top bands > arrived, > > played, and did "outstanding sets." > > > > The Ho, The Ked & The Roland Stoves. And don't forget Mo Edison who > 'introduced a new musical instrument; a large guitar-like apparatus > with six three-foot-thick cables strung across a fifty-five-foot-long > replica of the Golden Gate Bridge called a "Mandoleen"; and promptly > blacked out South Dakota and five adjoining states for seventeen > minutes by attempting to play "Lady of Spain" with feed back!' > > Paz, do you think that one could be hooked up to the VG8? > > I love the Airplane's off-the-wall humor. The 'Bark' album originally > came wrapped in a facsimile of a brown paper grocery bag with JA on it > in the style of the A&P grocery store logo. > > I wonder if Ian Anderson or somebody with Jethro Tull had seen the > 'Volunteers' cover before coming up with the idea for 'Thick As A > Brick'. > > Mark in Seattle Wow Mark that's a great story. I don't think there is a model for the Mandoleen, but if we start one of those internet petitions maybe Roland will come up with an update for the chip. I was a big Airplane and Starship fan. I still listen to Blows Against the Empire pretty often. I had a friend in college that had an amazing collection of Airplane stuff. He also went off on all the variations like Hot Tuna and Papa John Creach solo stuff. BTW I think I will have to stop off in Paz South Dakota on my way to or from Saskatoon. Evian-consider your self forewarned Paz, Louisiana ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:37:44 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: TI's sound > > > Does anyone else think Joni sounds extremely depressed on TI or am I completely > off the wall here? You are not off the wall, or maybe you are since I am in agreement with you-sort of. I love TI yes she does sound royally pissed off but in a very angry way, a simmering rage type of way. Although I can understand why someone would think she sounds depressed, she sounds much more angry than anhything else to me. She is really espression her rage and this is not a hppy thing but I don't think it is depressed as depression is not associated with venting one's rage, as Joni is doing here. > > > Debra Shea - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:39:37 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: WTRF first listen > > My complete and total first reaction to WTRF when I first heard it was: > > "She sure was in love with someone when she recorded this!" It sticks out a mile. Reminds of first listening to Spy back in 79(Carly) and knew right a way that Carly and James had had it. > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:54:45 -0600 (CST) From: michael w yarbrough Subject: Re: NJC Me'shell, year-end NJC Mark asked about _Plantation Lullabies_. It's my fave Me'Shell record. It's VERY different from _Bitter_. Extremely funky with more overt hip-hop influence. It's not hip-hop in the purest sense of the word, but someone unacquainted with the genre would probably classify it there. Her bass playing, which is more breathtakingly brilliant than her vocals, is front and center. The lyrical content is primarily focused on race issues and varies from playful to despondent to angry. There are nonetheless some killer "love" songs, colored with themes of not-quite-sanity (stalking, etc.) and urban loneliness. I LOVE this album more than almost any other and highly recommend it, especially because one can almost always find it for less than US$12. The funny-as-shit quasi-hit "If That's Your Boyfriend (He Wasn't Last Night)" is included. I love _Bitter_ as well, and certain parts of it are the most mature work she's done. It is fairly uneven by her very high standards, however. I also think it's deceptively simple, so easy to write off. I think it's not been on many year-end best-of lists for many complex reasons, chief among which are: tendency of music press to forget non-hip-hop records by black artists (where was Cassandra's _Travelling Miles_ on these lists?), the fact that the record was neither a commercial hit nor a debut, so it has less of an "impact" in press minds, and its complete lack of connection to any major musical trend over the past year. Most of the albums I saw highly lauded on year-end lists had some sort of "story" that made them stand out: Rage Against the Machine "finally" making an album worthy of their greatness (not to mention their status as pioneers of the rap-rock style that dominated a certain sector of the music biz); Trent Reznor "coming back" after a tortuous recording, re-recording process (not to mention his status as a pioner of the electronic-dominated rock style that dominated a different sector of the music scene); Basement Jaxx and Everything But the Girl "reviving" house (which dominated yet another sector of the music scene); Prince Paul producing two great albums in one year, etc etc etc The biggest surprise absence for me has been The Roots, whose album received a lot of hype AND justified acclaim, but was nowhere to be found on most major lists. I'm holding out for the Village Voice Pazz and Jop poll, which tends to even out the above tendencies because of the wide net it casts. I'm sure Me'Shell will crop up there. My best of '99 albums, in rough order: Cassandra Wilson, _Travelling Miles_; The Roots, _Things Fall Apart_; Me'Shell NdegeOcello, _Bitter_; Basement Jaxx, _Remedy_; Mary J. Blige, _Mary_; Sleater-Kinney, _Hot Rock_; Fiona Apple, _When the Pawn_; Beck, _Midnite Vultures_; TLC, _Fan Mail_ and the new Slick Rick whose title escapes me. This excludes a lot of albums I know are good but haven't listened to a lot yet, especially Everything But the Girl, Mos Def, David Bowie, Rage, Alex Gopher, etc. On the whole, however, I think '99 was cursed with a glut of really good albums and no really great one. - --Michael, off to study for another ten weeks before posting again - ----------------------------------------------------------------- "If I owned Texas and hell, I'd rent out Texas and live in hell." - --Gen. P.H. Sheridan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 18:37:24 -0500 From: Maggie McNally Subject: Re: The buck starts here Michael, Bob and all, I have to jump in with an "I second that emotion" here. Unfortunately, I missed nearly all of Paz's set at Jonifest due to duty calling, but I have had the recent good fortune to be in possession of the Jonifest box set and I LOVE listening to Michael's voice and guitar work. There are others (happily, too numerous to mention) who keep me working throughout the day with their versions of Joni's music from that wonderful weekend too. So, first, a great big thanks to Bob for getting the cds to me. Second, thank you to all the musicians who played their hearts out in Topsfield. Makes me think I have to find my way to New Orleans. Maggie At 11:21 PM 1/28/00 -0600, Michael Paz wrote: >SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: >> >> In a message dated 1/28/00 10:31:23 PM US Central Standard Time, >> michaelpaz@worldnet.att.net writes: >> >> << my programming >> aims at getting close to the sound of her guitar on the original >> recording. >> >> >> Michael's work on the VG8 was SO wonderful, he inspired me to perform at >> Jonifest 2000 in New Orleans. His set at Ashara's was INCREDIBLE!! I was >> bawling like a baby and couldn't even look at another JMDL'er, I was so >> moved. Those of you who have heard it know what I'm talking about...Joni >> herself says that she loves to hear a male voice sing her songs, and Paz is >> one of the best!! >> >> Bob >> >> Bob > >Bob I can't find your snail mail address where I can send you your check >for shameless promotion of another lister. Thanks for the kind comments. >I have not been playing much lately, but plan to start rehearsing my set >and figuring out what I am going to play this year. I have a couple of >duets and threesomes planned. > >Michael > > Maggie McNally ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 18:42:44 -0500 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: cliqueish? Hello Matthew! I recommend 'For The Roses' as your next Joni purchase. That was the album that made me fall in love with Joni's music. Matthew ... if you ever get the chance try to meet up with JMDLer's in your area. It's such a unique experience to speak with folks who share the same intensity for Joni's music. Maybe we can lure you to the US for one of Ashara's festivals! Heather At 01:46 AM 1/30/00 -0000, Matthew Hall wrote: >Hello everybody, >Thanks for all of your replies, I didn't mean to come across aggressive with >my post, I just wanted to provoke some sort of response, which I suppose it >did; everyone has been really nice. Of course I didn't expect everyone to >fall at my feet when I first introduced myself, but I realise now that this >is a very busy list, so obviously you can't respond to everything. > >Anyway, now I've got your attention...lol > >This is my intoduction. >I am 18 years old, I live in the UK, not that far from Liverpool. I will be >going to study at Liverpool University this September. >As for Joni, I first got into her music last summer when I bought 'Blue'. >I'd heard about her mostly through Tori Amos (she's my number one I have to >say), who's cover of 'A Case Of You' I completely loved - it's still one of >my favourite Joni songs. The Joni albums I own are: >Blue >Court and Spark >Hejira >Hits >Misses >Taming The Tiger > >The hits and misses collections are fantastic as an introduction to Joni's >work. >I normally think buying a 'hits' collection is a bit of a cop out as opposed >to buying a proper album, but it really did amaze me. I actually prefer >'misses' 'cause that seems to have more of her '90s work on it. > >I've read what you've all said about TTT and I really like it. When I first >got it (just a couple of weeks ago) it didn't move me whatsoever - I liked >it really only because it was Joni, but that was also the reason why I gave >it more time. I don't know much about the VG8 at all, but I think the album >is really warm and it suits her voice now. The album's still pretty intense >but of course it's different from before; after 30 years there's no point >taking steps back. >It also has a couple of my fave Joni tracks on it: 'Harlem In Havana' and >'The Crazy Cries Of Love' > >I have to say I do prefer her 'Blue' and 'Court and Spark', probably because >I identify with them a bit more, but I'm also looking forward to getting >'Turbulent Indigo' next. Even though, in the store near me, it's more >expensive than all of the others. > >That's all I have to say for now, >thanks for reading if you made it this far. > >Oh and when is 'Both Sides Now' out in the UK? > >Matthew > >and... apart from TI, which album would you recommend next? > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:57:45 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: hi there From: "paul tyrer" Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:56:41 -0000 Hi Matthew Thought I'd reply (ego-maniac as I am) as I went to Liverpool University too - it was good, I enjoyed it once I'd crept out of my room (a v. shy 18 then) and went on to have a wonderful time there. hope you do too. As for which Joni album to recommend next, hmm a difficult one. If you love Blue and C&S, I'd go for one of the easy to love early ones. Ladies of the Canyon is v. friendly on the ear - it's got quite a few cuts from Hits you'll recognize and lots of lovely melancholy songs. Some people rave on about For the Roses, and though it's got some great tracks on it, it's not my fave. I love the Hissing of Summer Lawns, but I know some people find it difficult... And of course the first album is fantastic... Of Joni's later work, Night Ride Home is really super-accessible, but Turbulent Indigo broods and hangs around so much that once it hits you (and it took a while) you never quite stop playing it. At least, *I* still play it! whereas I don't much play Nightridehome (radio-friendly and lovely though it is). Confused?? Wait till you get everyone else's replies... bye for now Paul xx PS Hi again to listers who remember me from last year. Making a return appearance as I'm in work-avoidance mode. Hope you're all OK. Px ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 19:00:31 -0500 From: Maggie McNally Subject: Re: cliqueish? Matthew, > The Joni albums I own are: >Blue >Court and Spark >Hejira >Hits >Misses >Taming The Tiger > >The hits and misses collections are fantastic as an introduction to Joni's >work. >I normally think buying a 'hits' collection is a bit of a cop out as opposed >to buying a proper album, but it really did amaze me. I actually prefer >'misses' 'cause that seems to have more of her '90s work on it. > >... >and... apart from TI, which album would you recommend next? > You have done quite well considering your recent introduction! It is always interesting to me to see what route people take in their journey of discovering Joni's catalogue. I had the good fortune to start with Ladies of the Canyon a very long time ago (like, when it was new ;-D). Yet, I am a little envious of the discoveries you have yet to make. Like, For the Roses. And, Hissing of Summer Lawns. And, Don Juan's Reckless Daughter. Try those, for starters. I can honestly say that there are no discs I would pass over...just some are more easily entered and I have found more immediately rewarding than others. Maggie Maggie McNally ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:06:36 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Off to tropic shores (NJC) Within the next 24-48 hours (whenever we can get out on de plane) I will be leaving for a primitive coral atoll in the central Pacific and trading my posting disease for the amoebic variety (hopefully NOT!) Not sure when I will be returning but I wanted to say I'll be missing you all and thinking of the great party here on Feb. 8th with the special BSN release. Also will be missing (boohoohoo) the Paz in L.A./NAMM next weekend and exhort Steve, Ken, Clark and the gang to party hearty in my absence. I should be back by the time Catgirl makes landfall in L.A. so we can pick it up then ;-) To keep some connection to civilization, I will be taking along the JM Companion and Bill Graham Presents books. (at least I'll finally get some good reading done in quiet isolation!) Adios and aloha for now - Love, Kakki NP: Missing You - David Wilcox ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 00:46:58 +0000 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re : Top Five Joni (at a tangent)(NJC?) I've rather hijacked the subject line, as a way of mentioning a new section on my website.... ;o) The link is that *MY* top 5 Joni are all among the Top Albums Of All-Time chart featured in the music section. Now, the list is nothing more than what I personally consider the finest recordings I've heard, and I'm sure many of my choices will have you questioning my sanity...but then, you know I'm heir to the throne of King Music Slut ;-) Anyhow, Hejira comes in highest of Joni's albums...at No.8, with NRH next at 22, DED at 33, CMIARS at 42, and TI at 57. At present, I have only done up to No.72, but HOSL will be included between #73 and #100. Although that must sound like heresy to some of you, to even make the final cut of 100 I have to really adore the album. So many truly wonderful albums had to be omitted..... In a bid to make the section visually pleasing yet simple, I've included full-colour scans of all the album artwork for each title, plus full track-listings (with my own favourite tracks highlighted). BTW, I will be checking out FTR forthwith, as it seems to be highly regarded by so many of you! And, in time, it may become Joni album #7 to feature in my Top 100. I will be continually updating the list. Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:11:10 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: NJC: malteds and sodas and shakes (Oh my!) - --- Chuck wrote: > It's sad that the Mom and Pop drug store/soda fountain has mostly gone the > way of the dodo. I know of one or two up in Maine...a place called the > Gingerbread House up in Oquossoc , between Rangeley and Mooselookmeguntic > Lakes) preserves an old fountain installation, but the restaurant itself has > been made over into an upscale eatery you'd expect to find in Tahoe or > someplace! Too bad. There is a working soda fountain as part of the exhibits in "The World of Coke", next to Underground in downtown Atlanta, with a resident Jerk doing demonstrations > I was SHOCKED when I moved to Boston to find that regionally, a 'milk shake' > contained no ice cream, just syrup, milk and carbonated water. If you want > ice cream in your shake around here you ask for a 'frappe'. Some places will > understand an order for a 'western' as a double-thick, two scoop frappe. > Or, at least, Elsie's Lunch in Harvard Square once did. > A regionally pervasive chain called Friendly's introduced a weird thick-thick > frappe called an 'Awful-awful' which was pretty much like a MacDonald's milk > shake - pre-mixed, pretty awful indeed, and impossible to drink thru the straw. Friendly's shake is called a "Fribble" and, imho, is only a notch better than the MickeyD frozen slop-in-a-cup. Brian, laughing to myself at the fluorescent "flying nuns" just standing there on stage during Phil Collins' stupidbowl halftime show ===== "No paper thin walls, no folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 01:54:39 +0000 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Tube/Roman NJC Hi Tube/Roman, Roman wrote: > It IS a great list though, full of gentle people with flowers in their > hair. Someone once posted that they joined a Stevie Nicks mailing list > for a while once, expecting it to be similar to this one. But apparantly > everyone there was calling each other 'shithead' and 'motherfucker', > which is some kind of proof that Joni Mitchell, unlike Stevie Nicks is > clearly some kind of force for good in this world, and this list > comprised of her fans and other interested parties is a valuable and > fairly unique oasis of peace, love and understanding on the web. > > Sometimes I do get a bit naughty and say things that I know will rock > the boat, but I usually end up absorbing and learning at least as much > from this forum as I put into it, and that's the way it should be I > think. Well, suggesting Stevie Nicks is not a force of good in the world could certainly be construed as asking for a reaction! ;o) Seriously, I've been following the threads that have resulted from your intial posting(s) with interest. While it's fair to say some of your points and general tone maybe struck a slightly discordant note with some folks at first, it doesn't hurt to engage in some provocative discussion, if it it's done so in a civilised manner. I can't say I necessarily agreed with much (if any) of what you wrote, but as has been said already, it was presented in an intelligent manner. My own opinions are beside the point, and not my reason for writing anyway. With regard to artists and their websites/mailing lists, I don't think you can really judge their character/integrity/worth by such things, unless of course they have a very hands-on role in them. No artist can be entirely responsible for the people who like their work. I think that would be entering into very dubious and complex territory. For instance, the Everything But the Girl mailing list throws up a lot of very confrontational and abusive postees, yet the band themseves are inherently decent and inteligent people. Best wishes, Jason. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #60 **************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?