From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #59 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Sunday, January 30 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 059 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- NJC: In defense of Chili [Kate Tarasenko ] TI (was cliqueish?) [dsk ] Re: Lyrics and Music (was Re: VG8 Sound) [FredNow@aol.com] Re: MBL NJC [Joseph Palis ] re: Lady In Satin (NJC) [Joseph Palis ] Re: MBL NJC [Joseph Palis ] Re: What's In A NameNJC [catman ] [Fwd: What's In A Name NJC] [catman ] Re: MBL NJC [catman ] Re: MBL NJC [Joseph Palis ] Good Morning! Have some coffee (NJC) [mann@chicagonet.net] Re: NJC: In defense of Chili [dsk ] Wag, wag, wag. [Richard Rice ] Re: cliqueish? which one next? ["Matthew Hall" ] Tube/Roman NJC [Roman ] recreation again NJC [Roman ] Fiona NJC [Emily Kirk Gray ] NJC: malteds and sodas and shakes (Oh my!) ["Chuck EIsenhardt" ] Re: NJC: malteds and sodas and shakes (Oh my!) [catman ] NJC: Cliqueish JMDL, ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] JM Companion [Emily Kirk Gray ] Re: VG-8 Info [Michael Paz ] Re: NJC: In defense of Chili [Kate Tarasenko ] VG-8 Patches etc. [Michael Paz ] Re: VG-8 Info [Michael Paz ] Re: The buck starts here NJC [Michael Paz ] Re: synth , VG-8, recording questions [Michael Paz Subject: NJC: In defense of Chili Hi, Debra, and the other folks who chimed in in defense of Tube: I'm coming to the aid of my friend Chili, one of the kindest and most gentle souls I've ever met -- and that goes for Mrs. Chili, too. I only mention this because I think I understand his intent in writing his gentle admonishment (as opposed to "scolding") regarding some of the fever-pitched responses to Tube's recent rant/s. I found Chili's post very clear-headed and respectful, and not at all chilling to any debate, uncomfortable or otherwise. Although I agree with Debra about 99.9% of the time, I don't think Chili's request was out of line or out of keeping with the current circumstances -- and here I'm talking about Wally. I don't mean to be morbid but, I, too, found it unseemly and unfortunate to watch tempers flare when I, for one, am fighting the sadness I feel about Wally's leaving us -- Wally is one of the main reasons we're all here, so I DO see the connection and the irony of the near mud-slinging that's lately been going on. More importantly, I don't see that Chili is throwing out the baby with the bath water -- in fact, here's what he wrote: "...[W]hile you may agree or disagree in whole in or in part with what [Tube] said, he did not write it as a personal attack on anyone on this list. He raised some interesting ideas. Why can't we just discuss them without attacking him personally? Instead of becoming ugly, this could be fun and we all might learn something..." When some posts tread close to mean-spiritedness or name-calling, as some were, I think it's a good thing for listers out on the sidelines to flag the play, as it were, and say Let's play nice. Why not? Things don't have to erupt into an all-out flame war for anyone to exercise the right to express a worry or observation that people might be disrespecting each other, and that we should rein it in a little. I don't equate "playing nice" with not or never engaging in healthy debate or dealing with issues that some might find uncomfortable, and I didn't read that Chili thought so, either. Yes -- this, too, shall pass, but just as we should be tolerant of some folks' emotional, borderline or baiting rants, I think we need to be tolerant of the gentler spirits here. So, time-in, and let's play nice out there!^) And Debra, as one ex-smoker to another, I feel your pain, sistah, so hang in there! Long walks and long naps... Kate in CO ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 03:46:00 -0500 From: dsk Subject: TI (was cliqueish?) Matthew Hall wrote: > and... apart from TI, which album would you recommend next? Hi Matthew, I'd suggest you save TI for later and first get For the Roses or Night Ride Home (my current favorite) or, Joni's debut album, Song to a Seagull. Lots of people on the list love TI so I'm going to get verbally pummeled and told to listen, listen, listen to it again, but regardless of that, I have to say Joni's voice on TI is SOOOO depressing I can't stand listening to it. When I first heard it I didn't know about her separation from Larry and health problems or anything she was going through, and I remember thinking Oh Joni, what has happened? It sounded so different from NRH. It was like the "down, down, down" in Cold Blue Steel and Blue Fire, but she was never coming out of the hole again. OK, I'll admit I haven't listened to it many times, but I REALLY don't want to. (I think this is one of those 20-year projects.) Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 04:26:44 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Lyrics and Music (was Re: VG8 Sound) David Wright wrote: >>Also, I have never thought the major/minor shifts in the melody >>worked on Fiddle and the Drum. Well, we're firmly in "agree to disagree" territory here ... I think those major/minor shifts work like a mo'fo'. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:32:30 +0800 (JST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Re: MBL NJC I did. That was a great movie that says more about our attitude towards miscegenation and same-sex relationship. Daniel Day-Lewis was perfect as usual, but it was the Indian (?) actor who gave a more heartfelt performance. And yes, it was directed by one of my favorite directors: Stephen Frears (who should be knighted if only on the basis of having directed the perfect film DANGEROUS LIAISONS). Joseph (also a fan of John Sayles, Whit Stillman, Mike Leigh, and Woody Allen) On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Roman wrote: > > BTW Did anybody see 'My Beautiful Launderette'? > > tube > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:41:15 +0800 (JST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: re: Lady In Satin (NJC) I too liked LADY IN SATIN despite (or maybe because) of Billie's vocal imperfections. I got started with Billie on her `30s date with Teddy Wilson and did not get her outputs chronologically. But when I listened to her LAST RECORDINGS album (which was 3 months before she died) I got goose bumps listening to that broken, fragile and fantastic voice. When I got LADY IN SATIN later, it was a kick listening to her during rehearsals. This famously tragic woman changing keys and trying vocal styles and talking in that rasp made me love her more. Joseph (thinks SONGS FOR DISTINGUE LOVERS is Billie's best) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:51:37 +0800 (JST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Re: MBL NJC > > I loved the movie, for many reasons. Daniel Day Lewis (his first movie, > I think) I thought that it was Daniel Day Lewis first film, until I saw GANDHI which was released in 1982 and I saw him with probably just over a minute screen time as a street thug. Later, my cineaste friends told me that Daniel's first film is a cameo in a 1971 film with Glenda Jackson called SUNDAY, BLOODY SUNDAY. Which was also an incendiary film not only of the first man-to-man screen kiss between Murray Head and Peter Finch. Joseph (thinks DDL's best film is still THE UNBEARABLE LIGHTNESS OF BEING) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:12:27 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: What's In A NameNJC > > > Come on, admit where you saw it! > Graham Norton! > That is such a coolprogramme, very rude too. yes! I was shocked that that woman was Miss Michael Learned-she looked so different. I expected a really old lady. To discover she was only 31 when she did The Waltons was a surprise to say the least. > > > Matthew - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:16:43 +0000 From: catman Subject: [Fwd: What's In A Name NJC] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------62B57E04D99B010208816F7A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." - --------------62B57E04D99B010208816F7A Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk id 949203564:20:27963:3; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 03:39:24 GMT Received: from tobago.pathwaynet.com ([216.46.203.46]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa2108278; 30 Jan 2000 3:38 GMT Received: from p206-83.gv.pathwaynet.com ([216.46.206.83] helo=pathwaynet.com) by tobago.pathwaynet.com with esmtp (Exim 3.02 #1) id 12ElBJ-0007tE-00 for catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 22:37:46 -0500 Message-ID: <3893B3BC.ACB81D4C@pathwaynet.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 22:45:08 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Reply-To: revrvl@pathwaynet.com Organization: American Apostolic Catholic Church X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: catman Subject: Re: What's In A Name NJC References: <3893944F.566784E5@ethericcats.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-PATHWAY: SMTP FROM TOBAGO catman wrote: > According to a tv prog, the following are real places: > > Dildo in Newfoundland Can(Pack your bags MG) > Climax in Colarado > Intercourse In Pennsylvania > Wet Beaver Creek in Arizona(Lets not go there) > Bastard in Norway > Arsoli in Italy > Turdo in Romania Don't know about Colorado, but Climax, Michigan is about 80 miles south of me. Nirvana is a bit to the north and west, about 45 miles. Hell is straight east about 60 miles. Paradise is a bit further, maybe 250 miles north., but not far from Christmas. As far as that goes, Oakland is in Michigan (not CA), Wyoming is in Michigan, not in, er, Wyoming, Atlanta is in Michigan not GA, Pompeii is here, not in Italy, and actually only about 20 miles from here (and pronounced Pomp-pee-I). Sorry to say that Paris does not exist anymore, having been annexed into Grand Rapids. Thus it is now hard to be free there. ... and Bob in SC, the REAL Greenville is where I live, in Michigan. You would expect that to be true, Bob, that the real Greenville would be here in the midst of all these cool places... (the Rev) Vince, Greenville resident, who when he says go to Hell, means another town in Michigan. - --------------62B57E04D99B010208816F7A-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:20:19 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: MBL NJC > > > miscegenation have never seen this word before. What does it mean? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 18:17:31 +0800 (JST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Re: MBL NJC marriage of two very distinct cultures. anthropologists use it more. On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, catman wrote: > > > > > > miscegenation > > have never seen this word before. What does it mean? > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 04:45:21 -0600 From: mann@chicagonet.net Subject: Good Morning! Have some coffee (NJC) Free Starbucks http://www.breakfastblend.com/check.cgi Free Coffee from The Caffe' Florian http://www.macro.net/Florian/sendme.htm Don't forget to take your vitamins! http://www.healthmall.com/win.html FREE bottle (100 capsules) of vitamin E 400 iu for filling out survey.(Will also be entered into a monthly contest to win a FREE one-year supply of vitamins and herbs). Laura ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 06:13:21 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: NJC: In defense of Chili Kate Tarasenko wrote: > Hi, Debra, and the other folks who chimed in in defense of Tube: > I'm coming to the aid of my friend Chili, one of the kindest and most > gentle souls I've ever met I've no doubt about that at all. I wasn't addressing or attacking Chili's personality, I was responding to what he'd written. It may have been gently stated, but basically his post told people they were behaving badly and they should stop doing that. In my viewpoint, people were responding to what Tube had posted. I think people have a right to do that. No one was telling Tube to stop posting or that he should write another way or called him any names at all. Describing the way a person is coming across emotionally, at a particular time, is not the same as reducing that person to one negative trait, which is what name-calling is all about. No one did that to Tube. Plus, I think it's up to Tube to let people know if he's offended. It sounds like I'm all heated up about this. I'm not. I'm just trying to very clearly explain myself -- not easy. It comes down, I guess, to different perceptions. What to me is a passionate discussion is, or comes too close for comfort to being, a near-mud-slinging mean-spirited fight to other people. (But how could I have learned about the different views of music and art history if that's all the discussion was?) > ... I, too, found it unseemly and unfortunate to watch tempers flare when I, for > one, am fighting the sadness I feel about Wally's leaving us -- Wally is one of > the main reasons we're all here, so I DO see the connection and the irony of the > near mud-slinging that's lately been going on. Well, don't at all fight it. I also have Wally on my mind much of the time now, and am very sad and praying over and over that he's feeling peaceful. My heart, along with Michael's and many others', is in San Francisco. But that has nothing to do with people passionately expressing themselves on this list. And no matter what's happening elsewhere, nasty name-calling (which IMO was not happening in the current thread) is never an appropriate or effective way to communicate. Making use of Wally's sickness to "guilt" people into behaving another way (when they weren't doing anything wrong in the first place) really rubbed me the wrong way. > And Debra, as one ex-smoker to another, I feel your pain, sistah, so > hang in there! Long walks and long naps... Thanks for the concern, but I was just trying to make fun of my annoyedness (is there such a word?) in my earlier post and tie it into a current thread. I quit smoking about 6 years ago and, yeah, it's torture. But it's great to not get bronchitis for months every winter, to be able to take a deep breath, to not live in a yellow-walled place, and to know my green beans are done just by being able to smell them. Ahhh! So, to anyone suffering through it now, I too say just hang in... Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 05:57:17 -0500 From: Richard Rice Subject: Wag, wag, wag. Wooooahhhh. Usually weekends are quiet around this list, but man, tongues have certainly been wagging the last few days!!! Very interesting threads going on here. Must be the pre BSN euphori a kicking into gear, I guess. In regards to Joni's melodies, complaints being waged here are complaints she has heard for YEARS. It's surprising to hear them from so many in the jmdl flock. It's the sort of thing I would expect from the general public. I would have thought we would all be used it by now. Part of what makes Joni's melodies less 'melodic' is that she has gone through some major transitions in the way she writes a song and in the harmonies she hears. While her 'weird' chords coughed up some unusal chordal and melodic movements in the early years, the sounds of the times leaned heavily to a traditional form of harmony: simpler colors, simpler movements and brighter in key. Her harmony has always made her an odd bird, but the melodic line did not drift too far afield in those days, floating over the notes in that 'folksy' 'country' sing song sort of way, popular to the times. The melodic line staying above the melodic movement without much counter movement at all. Some of it was even borrowed from the Mama Cass and Crosby crowd. The fact that Joan brought into this mix, new chords, new movements, and peculiar arrangements was part of her charm. You knew the moment you heard her that you were listening to a unique, creative and totally individual voice. One of the things I admire about her, that shows her true genius as an artist, is her ability to see possibilities where no one else does. The fact that she went into open tunings to begin with was she heard chords in her head that simply could not be produced in standard tuning. Or at least not without difficulty. I would love to have sat with her back then and listen to her hum a melodic line she knew was there, but couldn't yet find on the guitar. Her harmonic sense was always 'out there.' As Joni began to crave more and more contrapunctal movent in her music, her vocal line and the harmonies under them began to move in different directions. That alone, for most of the buying public is too much musical depth to handle. Secondly, she began to 'flatten' the melodic line to serve the poetry. One of her great gifts as a song writer is her ability to make the melody sound so natural to the words. So well in fact, the songs practically feel spoken rather than sung. There is rarely a moment were the voicing in her songs feels false or forced. This is one of the highest marks of a song writer, I feel. And it's a talent she has in spades. As she has mentioned, she changed the way she wrote songs, writing them around a standard melody no one has heard (save her), so the inflections can be made more natural by raising or lowering a note. In this way you would need to write out extra lead sheets for her songs, since the melody does not repeat itself from verse to verse. When she does this, she flattens out the melodic line to a degree. Certainly Hejira is the most radiant and successful use of this technique. The great irony is most people see this as a loss of melody, where Joni perceives it as offering more! Today, I think much of what we consider 'melodic' exists more in her arrangements than in the melody itself. Personally, I prefer to hear the complexity of the contrapunctnal movement between the musicians married with a 'flatter' evolving lyric line, than to hear the earlier work where the harmonies sing song under the melodic flow of the vocals. I would put money that Joni feels the same way. I do concede a 'sameness' to the sound track of TTT. But some of this is due to the fact that the tunings are pretty damn similar from song to song. Some of it is because Joni herself plays so many of the parts. (Bass, guitar, piano, etc.) Can't blame that on the VG8. And yet every song sparkles with just the perfect mix of the artists performing and the exquisite layering of tones by Joni. My fave musical moment is the layering of piano synthesizer hitting a sustained crystal high just before the lines, "Oh, love takes so much courage, Love takes so much shit." Every hair on my neck stands on end when that bit of magic washes over the song. Praise heaven, the stars, and the folks at Roland. If not for them, tongues would not be wagging about any of this. Peace. John. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:34:47 -0000 From: "Matthew Hall" Subject: Re: cliqueish? which one next? Thanks for your suggestions everyone. There was an overwhelming response for 'FTR' which I was a little surprised by. The title track is one of my favourites off the 'misses' collection, so I reckon that I will get that one next. 'Night Ride Home' was another popular one, which I've always been pretty enthusiastic about because I love 'come in from the cold' and 'passion play' so much. So I might get that one after FTR. I'm not really well up on her 80s stuff at the moment; 'Shadows and Light' and 'Wild Things Run Fast' is a complete blind spot. I have to say, at the moment 'Mingus' intrigues me the least, but I am really interested in DJRD just from what I've heard you all say about it. thanks again Matthew and if you're interested, these are the people I listen to most: Tori Amos, Bjork, PJ Harvey, Kate Bush, Madonna, John Lennon, Sinead O'Connor, Alanis Morissette, Patti Smith, Nirvana, REM, Beth Orton, Sheryl Crow, Hole, Ani Difranco, Morcheeba, Macy Gray, and Joni of course. Seeya ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:30:15 +0100 From: Roman Subject: What have we all got in common? (JC at last!) I know many of you are hardened Joni fans who have all her albums. I however have only three, and there's probably others of us who also don't have her entire catalogue. Some people may have half a dozen titles that are completely different from someone else's half a dozen titles. But some album collections might intersect (y'know, like Venn diagrams of sets) I thought it might be interesting to see (by means of some kind of survey) if there is any one particular Joni album that ALL or nearly all of us happen to actually possess. The Venn diagram of all the sets of people's Joni collections showing an intersection at just one album. This might then be regarded as the definitive Joni album in some sense? Mathematically speaking, would this turn out to be Joni's biggest selling album, (as published by Billboard charts or somesuch), or might our list-survey amongst JMDLers come up with a completely different result, if you see what I mean? Maybe you've already done such a survey though, I and I missed it. If so, forget the idea. tube ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:54:01 +0100 From: Roman Subject: Tube/Roman NJC First of all I apologise for causing confusion over my email handle - I really ought to get myself sorted out on this - I'm hoping to get a domain sometime next month, so that will probably help me to standardise things. For the time being, tube and roman are the same person. To save yourselves a few keystrokes, just make it tube. Secondly - Alan - I obviously appreciate you rushing to my defence. That was nice of you, but don't feel you have to do this, because as the others will tell you, I'm not a major player/poster on this list, and you needn't worry about me too much - I only have three or four old Joni tapes (Make no mistake though, she's the grapes alright, and I dig her). Most of the time I just lurk - sometimes I don't even read the list for weeks, (just use it to check my mail-server is still functioning ;-)) but every six months or so (when I'm feeling chatty) I drop in and share my views on something that's caught my eye on the list. I'm also a disgusting name-dropper! It IS a great list though, full of gentle people with flowers in their hair. Someone once posted that they joined a Stevie Nicks mailing list for a while once, expecting it to be similar to this one. But apparantly everyone there was calling each other 'shithead' and 'motherfucker', which is some kind of proof that Joni Mitchell, unlike Stevie Nicks is clearly some kind of force for good in this world, and this list comprised of her fans and other interested parties is a valuable and fairly unique oasis of peace, love and understanding on the web. Sometimes I do get a bit naughty and say things that I know will rock the boat, but I usually end up absorbing and learning at least as much from this forum as I put into it, and that's the way it should be I think. tube ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:51:03 +0100 From: Roman Subject: recreation again NJC catman wrote: > > I think people do need to create. It is part of being human. So if >someone > expresses themselves thru music or painting or writing or whatever, it >is a > need, one that would be painful to live without, because a vital aprt of >that > person would be missing. And a life lived without is not a complete >life. > therfore to create must be a need. > > As for people needing people-we all do. It has become fashionable for >certain > therapy and 12 step junkies to dismiss being needy as being somehow >unhealthy. > Nonsense. No man/woman is an island. We all have needs that can only be >met by > other people, etc... Heather's comments were valid, but they put a slant on the meaning of my post that I hadn't actually put there myself, and now people are running away with the idea that somewhere I've said that people who need people are weak, and that positive-thinking antisocial loners will one day rule the earth as being the only ones tough enough to survive and worthy of inheriting the planet from the weedy needies. I never said that, and I never meant it to sound like that. I'm married and can't imagine life without my wife, and since moving to Italy, my problem with learning the language has also meant that my circle of real friends who I could actually share a deeply profound or emotional thought with has been reduced to practically zero. I don't have the language skills to put, or hear the subtle nuances of tone and vocabulary in conversation that we take for granted we can use when we're rapping with friends in the same language. So, yes, I need people. And art and music offers great relief to the spirit and the flesh, if not the soul. I'm not disagreeing wholly with what Heather or you have said; What I WAS saying, was suggesting to people that they look again at what Vince wrote about some relationships being too clingy, and apply that to what I was saying about the assumed human 'need' for art and music. They're luxuries, just like hot running water and ŪTurtle Wax, but we CAN get along without them. What I was cautioning against, (and I think Vince was too) was DEPENDENCE on a particular human being, hobby, or possession. That can make us weak, spoiled and brattish, and perhaps actually restrict us maturing into a more personally fulfilled and useful member of society, (and, for those listmembers who may believe in a 'Higher Power', letting go of the the things we think we need for our personal fulfillment can often liberate us to accept new challenges and be spiritually guided through a life we wouldn't have dared or even thought of plotting out for ourselves.) A slavish infatuation with another person, or a prolific immersion in the labour or the love of art is just the sort of thing that can get in the way of us getting a glimpse of that more fulfilled life that God may offer. Of course, some will say that religion is also an obsession for the needy, a crutch. Well, like Dylan sang 'You're gonna have to serve somebody'. Make your choice. Me? - I'm the original priest with the pornographic watch. I well know that longing to create, to luxuriously backstroke through the boogie while the California sun beats down on my naked, muse-caressed body. But it's just recreation, or a means of putting bread on the table. I don't think that beauty is truth, or art. Marcel wrote: >To my knowledge all the churches in Rome were open to the "public". >Berninis art alone is priceless and breathtaking. Botticellis. >Tintorettos hanging everywhere. St.Peters basilica. Chartres. Nantes. The >best art in the Reinassance was all religious and open to the public Firstly, I started this thread on the subject of music specifically, not necessarily visual art, which is a wider field I don't want to get lost in at this time. Besides, I think that music is a more seductive medium than the visual arts, as there can actually be a physical response to music within us. Yes, the paintings, sculptures and buildings were easier to get to see, but a lot of the art your citing above was the equivalent of billboard advertising - for the church. Big-scale, over the top imagery calculated to appeal to and convince the loyalty and belief of the uneducated, illiterate poor, who were discouraged from actually reading the bible themselves because if they did, they might put their own militant slant of interpretation on it and start setting up their own churches instead, independent of the ruling mother church/government. It was just a laser-show Marcel. A good one though, I admit, but 30,000 Waldenses and Albigenses died because they didn't dig the laser-show. >The problem with his thinking is that he's ignorant of art history. Yes, I'll admit to that. I'm neither scholar nor connoisseur, and I do overgeneralise so I'm happy to stand corrected of any of my bubbles that can be burst by medium-hard to hard evidence or reliable historical record. >I think he's hanging out at too many Communist coffee houses and cafes. Actually the problem's more likely to be that I'm not hanging out enough at ANY cafes! I know, I should get my nose out of my books and get out more... perhaps start stirring up more of a NEED for people in myself :-) tube ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:26:26 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Kirk Gray Subject: Fiona NJC hi all fiona apple's "pawn" has been only a close second to aimee mann's "magnolia" in my stereo (that's a ranking only based on my "non-joni" music of course...) for recent air play at radio station chez emily. i loved her first album, but considered it a bit over-the-top with all the growling, blues voice stuff. i guess i was a snob, and thought, who is this 19 year old? but i really dig "pawn" -- although some of the lyrics near the pretentious "i'm a smart girl using a lot of words" stage, the music is really layered and complex and i thought the production especially was excellent. just my two cents -- sorry for the "me, too" sort of post... also, if anyone keeps up with this sort of thing (i'm sort of a gossip junkie), fiona and p.t. anderson are RATHER IRRITATING with their need to be in love all over the place... wow, does that sound bitter or what!? - -- emily NP: "Be Cool," WTRF ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:41:12 -0500 From: "Chuck EIsenhardt" Subject: NJC: malteds and sodas and shakes (Oh my!) It's interesting that the soda fountain may have no parallel in the UK? It's sad that the Mom and Pop drug store/soda fountain has mostly gone the way of the dodo. I know of one or two up in Maine...a place called the Gingerbread House up in Oquossoc , between Rangeley and Mooselookmeguntic Lakes) preserves an old fountain installation, but the restaurant itself has been made over into an upscale eatery you'd expect to find in Tahoe or someplace! Too bad. The key thing I recall about the taps were that they had two positions, forward and back. In making a soda (basically some flavored syrup and carbonated water, possibly with some milk and/or malt powder) one started with the syrup (pumped out of a well set into the fountain) and then at the water tap, pushed back on the handle and a high pressure jet of water shot into the glass, mixing with the syrup and perhaps other ingredients, creating a froth. Then as you proceeded to fill up the glass, you pulled (jerked?) the handle forward and a low pressure flow of water ensued, enabling you to finish filling the glass without decorating the whole vicinity. This process also created a delicious sound, and the soda-jerk, far from being a target of scorn, was a pretty dashing dude. My older sisters both worked at the fountain of a classic Main Street drugstore. Earlier in the century, the convergence of the drug store and the soda fountain was due to the fact that most of the drinks were thought to be medicinal - phosphates (phosphric acid!) and powders and so on mixed with carbonated water. The syrup was to mask the taste of the phosphate. One of my first summer jobs was 'soda jerking' in a dairy bar/lunchroom called Lincoln Dairy. It's signature feature was 'real whipped cream' as opposed to whatever that stuff is that comes out of a can. I used to hand whisk 5 gallon batches of whipped cream. (I just wanted to establish my creds, here) I was SHOCKED when I moved to Boston to find that regionally, a 'milk shake' contained no ice cream, just syrup, milk and carbonated water. If you want ice cream in your shake around here you ask for a 'frappe'. Some places will understand an order for a 'western' as a double-thick, two scoop frappe. Or, at least, Elsie's Lunch in Harvard Square once did. A regionally pervasive chain called Friendly's introduced a weird thick-thick frappe called an 'Awful-awful' which was pretty much like a MacDonald's milk shake - pre-mixed, pretty awful, indeed, and impossible to drink thru the straw. A 'black and white' is whipped chocolate syrup, milk and vanilla ice cream. In the mid-west, a 'black cow' (as opposed to a black crow) is root beer and scoop of vanilla ice cream. And I won't even go near 'flavor-straws'... I hope all this info is helpful to the UK and other offshore folks should you ever visit. ChuckE ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:43:54 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: recreation again NJC > > > Heather's comments were valid, but they put a slant on the meaning of my > post that I hadn't actually put there myself, and now people are running > away with the idea that somewhere I've said that people who need people > are weak, and that positive-thinking antisocial loners will one day rule > the earth as being the only ones tough enough to survive and worthy of > inheriting the planet from the weedy needies. I never said that, and I > never meant it to sound like that. Hi tube-I was respondiong to what Heather wrote(and MG and Vince). It wasn't aimed at you. The only thing i connect with what you wrote is about the need to create which I think is a human need. but agree with you that to be single tracked and totally immersed in one thing or person is unhealthy. > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:51:11 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC: malteds and sodas and shakes (Oh my!) > > > I was SHOCKED when I moved to Boston to find that regionally, a 'milk shake' > > contained no ice cream, just syrup, milk and carbonated water. I am shocked to read this! Milk and carbonated water? How disgusting! My parents owned a Milk Bar in Australia. Milk shakes were milk, ice cream and malt and flavouring syrup. my fave was a caramel malted. Some milk, lots of icecream, like at least 3 big sccops and syrup and malt. here in the UK they don't know what a milk shake is-they think it's that goo produced by macdonalds. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:57:45 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Kirk Gray Subject: WTRF first listen hi gang i'm listening to "Wild Things Run Fast" for the first time! this and DED are the only two joni's i don't own...although i suppose it's down to one, now -- oh, wait, i don't own STAS yet either. anyway, i know you are all holding your breath(s) waiting for me "first listen" first thoughts. so here goes: 1. isn't this album going to be a "guilty pleasure" joni for me?...i've been nervous about filling in my blanks in the JM archive, which has meant CMIARS -- WTRF and DED. i had the early stuff and the later stuff (NRH,TI and TTT). anyway, by "guilty pleasure" i guess i mean a record that i can play to hear other, different joni music -- but nothing that i really crave or love or find is complex incredible music. also, NOT an album i'd point out to my non-joni-obsessed friends. 2. "chinese cafe" is worth the price of the whole album, especially the "unchained melody" which, if you think about it, is a melody even more unchained by joni's gorgeous melancholy rendering of it. 3. why are the lyrics so (oh god i'm nervous to say this) bad? there are more empty references to "love" on this record than i can count -- staying away from easy "love" lyrics has always been what i cherished about our never-easy JM...yikes! 4. two words: lionel richie? 5. am i the only one reading some dirty double entendres into the lyrics for "wild things"? :) probably. 6. a very postmodern (and purposely ugly?) painting for the cover -- the "wild things" are only running fast and free on the TV screen, not in "real life." 7. what does "personal direction: elliot roberts" mean? (in the liner notes). personally, my direction would have been: joni, try writing another draft! OK, OK, i'm waiting for all the "give it time" posts that i expect will be the response -- or feel free to ignore this random WTRF email. actually, i can't quite remember what the general take is (NOT that THIS group could have a coherent general take :) that's what i love about you guys :)) on WTRF. i guess so far i think that this record is part and parcel of joni's being (in my mind) an artist who experiments, takes risks (even in terms of venturing into the banal) and bottom line just doesn't really care what i think -- i mean, i'd like to think she cares what i think -- but i can't tell you how much i love her "don't like it? screw you" attitude. i NEED that in the artists i respect...much more than i need WTRF... bottom line: ain't it cool that joni cares so little about "being cool" and is so willing to be UNCOOL in this album, that has as one of its anthems an admonition to "be cool"... worried that my first "oh yuck, joni" response will oust me from the jmdl cool pool -- not that i was ever in it -- :) - -- emily NP: "love" from WTRF (loving the sound of her voice, but oh lord if i wanted lyrics like these--despite their being copped from the bible or wordsworth or lewis carroll--i'd turn on the girly guile music!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:02:44 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: NJC: Cliqueish JMDL, I just finished reading Digest #58 and it reads like Matthew finally got some responses!! Great! Welcome Matthew! Are you tired of people denying clique-ish-ness? You started a Clique Thread!! There is a small number of folks who have posting disease. Then there are some who post infrequently (like me) but who love the List dearly. Mark D. thought we were kinda a closed loop but he found out that there are lots of guitar players like himself "in the house". ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:06:35 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Kirk Gray Subject: JM Companion i just picked this up yesterday and i'm so excited to read through it! stacey, congratulations. i'm sorry about the misprint of the spelling of your name -- as someone who has logged countless hours doing freelance copyediting...i feel your pain! (and would definitely have caught the misspelling...:)) a final "fessing-up" thought: perry meisel (author of the review that shreds "hejira") is a friend and colleague of mine...he is a brilliant and kooky and risk-taking academic who loves music and who has agreed to disagree with me about joni mitchell! it's hard for me to read what he thinks about "hejira" but also easy for me to compartmentalize it because i know it's all coming from a specific (academic jargon-type) cultural theory he has... and hey, we're all allowed to be terribly wrong about things, right? ha ha. anyway, i find a lot of value in stacey's inclusion of pieces like this, because i love that joni provokes strong responses to either side of the extreme... or maybe i'm just saying that because i'm still feeling nervous about my not-so-hot-on-WTRF post earlier today...! - -- emily, spending a long lazy sunday morning writing lots of stuff to the JMDL and prepared to quit now so you folks can catch a break from my ramblings and also planning to go see "magnolia" exactly when the rest of the US is watching the dumb old superbowl! NP: the silence that comes after WTRF and before whatever i pick to play next... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:18:37 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: VG-8 Info john- Thanks to you for your beautiful unsolicited comments. It is so nice to know that "doggone it people like me" (sorry to Stuart Smalley). It is also so neat that I am being heard in Australia, a land where my number 1 son I dream of spending a bit of time. If my JoniFest2000 is a success here in New Orleans, I do believe I will have to take it on the road and after stopping by in San Fran to do a performance there and pick up my stranded heart, it will be off to the land down under. (now thats a helluva run on sentence). Peace Michael john low wrote: > > Bob M. wrote about Michael Paz's performances at the Jonifest: "Those > of you who have heard it know what I'm talking about..." > > Bob sent me a CD with a selection of the performances from Ashara's > and I have been listening to it over Christmas and the New Year. > Michael is represented on this 'sampler' with a number of songs and I > heartily endorse what Bob has said. The warm intimacy of his voice is > deeply moving. His versions of "Love Puts On A New Face", "Song For > Sharon" and "Hejira" are just marvellous. And, Michael, I don't want > any payment for saying this! :-) > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:36:08 +0000 From: Kate Tarasenko Subject: Re: NJC: In defense of Chili Hi, Debra -- With some spare minutes in my morning this wonderfully wintry Colorado day, I'd like to respond to your response, and forgive my nitpickiness. You responded: "...I wasn't addressing or attacking Chili's personality, I was responding to what he'd written." I know -- I said I was giving my opinion as to Chili's motives and intent for posting what he did. In doing so, I was describing (not defending) the character behind the moniker. You wrote: "...but basically his post told people they were behaving badly and they should stop doing that." And I defend his right to do so. I also happen to agree with his concerns, but my own tack was to sit back and see if things degenerated, or whether folks would shake off the heated language long enough to get the conversation back on track (which happened). And Chili wasn't the only person who posted his concerns, BTW. We may be a minority, but we have a right to our opinions, and a right to post them. (Goes without saying that you have a right to dissent and to be vocal about it.) And you said: "...I think it's up to Tube to let people know if he's offended." Something tells me that Tube is more than capable of defending himself, but it offends ME to watch other people behaving badly, or getting dangerously close to it. I think Chili was exercising his right to say as much. You wrote: "Making use of Wally's sickness to 'guilt' people into behaving another way (when they weren't doing anything wrong in the first place) really rubbed me the wrong way." Point taken. I also agree with your earlier point about perceptions, that one person's heated debate is another's nasty-rama. So you and Chili (and I) disagree as to the overall tenor of things. I think they changed for the better when Tube posted again -- things got back on track when he was called on certain points (and not too terribly nicely in many cases), and he expounded on them in subsequent posts. Things don't have to be EXACTLY name-calling for me to wince a little at what I read here from time to time -- we have a natural tendency to fill in the gaps and emotions behind the posts, and sometimes it's on track with the poster, and oftentimes not. But it is precisely these differing perceptions which are at the heart of why I (and perhaps, Chili, too) think that such verbal brawling is unseemly and disheartening in light of certain circumstances -- we obviously disagree, so I won't say more. And finally, you said: "...I was just trying to make fun of my annoyedness... I quit smoking about 6 years ago..." You're kidding me. (HUMOR! HUMOR!^) What the hell's the matter with being nice? Kate in CO ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:35:36 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: VG-8 Patches etc. > > Pat wrote: > > >one question i have. when you play through alternate tuning patches, are > the multiple sound options >limited? in other words, are there more sound > features available in standard tuning patches? if the >answere is no, then > i would think Joni likes her ttt sound, and to a degree, much of the ti > sound as >well. i think it sounds sort of like a pipe organ. i like it, > but what i think i missed the most on ttt was > > the mixture of sounds, Dear Pat- The sound options are programmable on every patch. You can have 64 "user patches" and 64 "preset" patches and 64 "memory card" patches on an optional ram card. The user patches internally is where you can store your own creations. The preset patches can be altered, but then to store or save them you have to do that in a "user" or "memory card" location. There are quite a few really pretty synth type sounds in the presets. Kakki wrote: > This ties in with something I've been ruminating about that maybe Michael > Paz can answer. How many of the "patches" were available to Joni when she > first started using the VG-8? It sounds like currently there are endless > sounds available, but perhaps it was limited in the beginning. I wonder > what TTT would have sounded like if Joni had used a greater variety of > "patches" in the songs. Maybe it would not have all "sounded so much > alike." It sounds like she is basically using the same patch throughout, > except for in Harlem in Havana and Lead Balloon - those songs are the two > that stand out as "different" to me in the album. Kakki, according to Gary she would have had as many as I posted above, but remember she just got this thing and was SO excited about all that it could do, and she did it all with Gary the night before the show in her hotel room. As you know Joan is very particular about the sound of her music and is always very concerned about the different ranges of sound, like the bass on the low end, etc. As she was playing by herself at Jazz Fest, she tried to make everything bigger (and the VG-8 has that capability), but the front of house engineer had no clue of how to deal with that wall of sound coming out of 2 outputs on the VG. She was suppose to have the FOH engineer from Little Feats band, but he got mugged in the quarter and missed the gig. Had he been there, I think the over all sound of that performance would have been ALOT better. I think the major similarity to the sounds on TTT (that most of you are hearing) are the effects. And mainly the chorus effect. For a period Pat Metheny used this effect on everything and it sounded like it. Sting's guitar player Dominic Milano also overuses this effect. Hell I love it myownself, but it does get old. I would love the chance to work with Joni on a new album of her original stuff and be able to program her VG-8 and engineer the recording. I would also beg her to sit down at the piano again (so what that it's painted green). > > In another case of synchro, not ten minutes ago I was running down some Joni > songs in my head and I mentally "dialed in" Harlem but the lyrics to Cotton > Avenue started playing, I swear to you!! This is to freaky! Would you mind performing this for us at the concert May 28th? Love Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:38:24 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: VG-8 Info catman wrote: > > > P.S. You know you you might try ringing up a music stor over there in > > jolly old England and ask them if they have a Roland VG-8 in stock and > > go over and see one in person and perhaps take it on a test drive. > > and look a fool!!! I wouldn't have clue how to test drive it! Can't play > anything except with myself. Catman- This could be an interesting approach to playing the VG-8. I am sure there are some guitar players on the list from England. It could be a field trip and science experiment. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:39:39 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: The buck starts here NJC SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 1/28/00 11:19:54 PM US Central Standard Time, > michaelpaz@worldnet.att.net writes: > > << I have a couple of > duets and threesomes planned. >> > > Michael, I'm really just interested in your music...you can keep the details > of your sex life to yourself. :~D > > Bob SO DOES THIS MEAN "OUR" DATE IS OFF???? MICHAEL (now all hurt and dejected) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:58:29 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: synth , VG-8, recording questions CarltonCT@aol.com wrote: > > Hey Michael and other guitarists - Clark- Phew that's alot of questions! Lets see how I can do here. > So, what should a fledgling guitarist buy? > > What's a good, reasonably priced electric guitar? Are some of them more > suited to using with a VG-8 or a synthesizer? 1) A great guitarist like yourself can pick up a Fender Mexican Strat on the low end (under 300) a Roland Ready Fender Mexican Strat (around 450-this has the pick up {hence the Roland Ready title} already built into the thing) Then you can get a VG-8 at about $1,200. I heard Jonatha Brooke was selling one of hers used. When I come out there why don't you come with me to the NAMM show and we can look for gear for you? > What's a good, reasonably priced portable amp? 2) I like the little 30 watt Vox amps about $150. But you could also use headphones on the VG or plug into your stereo like at Kakki's that time. > And regardless of whether the VG-8 is a synth or a modeler, does it have the > capacities of a synthesizer? Do you have to buy both? Does anyone know what > synth Pat Metheny uses to get all those incredible sounds? 3) It DOES have some synth type sounds as well like on Harlem in Havana, Lead Balloon, etc. You DO NOT "HAVE" to buy both, but remember whoever has the most toys when we die WINS. Pat Metheny has used a Roland synth since they started making them. He used the GR-300 I think the longest. After he made so much money he didn't know what to do with it, he got the full blown Synclavier. I read many reviews about this sound during this time, when people said he spent a half a million dollars on a device to get his guitar to sound like a five dollar harmonica. The Synclavier was one of the first hard disk recorders as well. > What can anyone tell us about how Joni records her songs? Recording my own > songs lately, they are being recorded in fragments which are pieced back > together. As an example, the intro is recorded first, followed by the first > 8 bars of the verse. If the next bars of the Chorus are the same, it's just > copied by the computer until you get to the bridge. In her oldest albums, > does anyone know if Joni ever "spliced" together the same guitar parts? One > disadvantage of this method is that you can't throw in a half a bar, or take > meaningful pauses unless they are accurately counted out, much less go for > some meter defying syncopations. I would say Joni probably never recorded > this way unless it was on DED under the watchful eye of Thomas Dolby. Joni has always been at the forefront of recording technology. I am sure she experimented with what was available since the old days. I assume you are using some computer program to do your recording with your producer. You can just a bar or half a bar in if you want. Computer recording is amazing. I have a program that will allow me to throw on a loop (sample) on a recording that I already have done and time stretch it or what ever and sync it to my already recorded tracks. Alot of people like Daniel Lanois, Pierre Marchand, tons of the hip hop producers, etc all use loops to begin their recordings and add another element or colour to their ideas. Splicing bits together can be equally as creative and fun, just don't go so wild in the studio that you will not be able to duplicate your stuff on the road. Remember you could have a big gig in New Orleans in May! Peace Michael ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #59 **************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?