From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #58 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Sunday, January 30 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 058 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: recreationNJC [catman ] Re: cliqueish? [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: VG8 Sound [catman ] Re: broad brush [FredNow@aol.com] Re: cliqueish?NJC [catman ] Re: VG8 Sound [FredNow@aol.com] AGREE W/ KAKKI [dave fairall / beth miller ] Re: Prince, diFranco and Joni (SJC) [Bounced Message ] Re: cliqueish?NJC [Randy Remote ] Re: cliqueish? NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: broad brush NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: cliqueish? NJC [ZZScotty@aol.com] Re: Prince, diFranco and Joni NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: VG-8 Info ["Kakki" ] Re: broad brush [FredNow@aol.com] Re: BSN (Billie Holiday) NJC ["Mark or Travis" ] WHEN IS THE BOX SET COMING OUT? [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: NJC Fiona Apple NJC ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: bitterness NJC & In defence of Tube ["Alan Lorimer" ] TTT Rediscovered [Scott Price ] Re: NJC: In defense of Tube [waytoblu@mindspring.com] Re: bitterness NJC & In defence of Tube (md) [MDESTE1@aol.com] What's In A NameNJC [catman ] Re: Prince, diFranco and Joni (SJC) [catman ] Re: Prince, diFranco and Joni NJC ["Matthew Hall" ] JM Realvideos [Deb Messling ] Re: bitterness NJC & In defence of Tube (md) ["Alan Lorimer" ] first impressions [Walter R Rodgers III ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:40:08 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: recreationNJC > MGVAL wrote: > > I've listened at great lengths to one of my close friends go on and on about > being detached and codependency. A lot of us codependants get hung on this issue and confuse it. I heard one such say at a meeting years ago that she felt proud of herself because she had passed her very elderly neighbour(carrying shopping)in her car in the dark and raining and she had not stopped to offer her a lift!!!! Totally off the point I think! yes we can get stuck in never being able to say no, in care taking, in enableing etc but that does not mean that in order to quit doing these unhealthy things we stop being human. For myselff, I say no when i need to say no. i take care when i need to. Most of the time i enjoy helping out. I gain more from it than the helpee. Whatever we do to/for another we do to/for ourselves. In the long run, no act is unselfish. > It's an issue that is real enough to blur > and confuse the "no person is an island" point that Colin made. My girlfriend > worries herself sick about "needing" someone and I find that sad. Yes, I know just what you mean. people then get so caught up in the problem that they become even more self obsessed, more like the person they do not want to be! Once self worth grows tho everything else falls into place. > > > I believe that one huge reason for us in this life is to love and to fulfill > our needs and to constantly reach out; again and again and again. I believe > that true spiritual growth is to not be a channel for love as much to > recognize that need and keep your heart open for opportunities to love. And > to not miss out on those opportunities. Too true MG, right on the button. we are here to be happy, to LIVE and in so doing we will automatically help others and be there for them and pass our happiness on. Only people who are not happy really, lash out and hurt others. > > > MG - Saturday chore procrastination - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:40:37 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: cliqueish? In a message dated 1/29/2000 3:15:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, jim50@hall7068.freeserve.co.uk writes: << Why does no one ever respond to my posts? I have introduced myself before, but despite your obvious love for Joni, I find this mailing list somewhat 'clique-ish' Matthew >> NO clique here that I know of...what was that you wanted us or whoever to respond to? Inquiring Cats wanna know..... Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:44:54 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: VG8 Sound Mark or Travis wrote: > At 04:37 AM 1/29/00 EST, Fred wrote: > > > >People keep lauding her lyrics, which is fine, but, c'mon ... where > are the > > >*tunes*?! > > > > > >-Fred Fred! That is more or less what i think. I don't consider Joni a tune person. None of her later work, to me, has a tune, at least not in the sense that I mean. Oh dear, this is hard to explain, but songs like The Circle Game have a definate tune(most of Carly's songs do). BUT that doesn't detract from her for me. It depends on my mood. if I want to be ulifted and have a sing along I listent to Carly. if I want to mellow out and be insular I listen to Joni. Strangely, I find joni relaxing. If I want to just sit back, kick my shoes off, and unwind, it is Joni i put on because her music doesn't over stimulate me. > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:52:41 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: broad brush In a message dated 1/29/00 7:14:22 AM, you wrote: >see...its not the shit....its the fan ... like I said. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:57:15 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: cliqueish?NJC Matthew Hall wrote: > Why does no one ever respond to my posts? > > I have introduced myself before, but despite your obvious love for Joni, I > find this mailing list somewhat 'clique-ish' Hi Matthew-i understand how you feel. On a different list i was in the same position. But I rejoined and used a girls name and I got loads of responses!!! But I digress...I got you email just addressed to me too. To be honest, i haven't noticed a mail from you before. Howver, in my experience this list is not cliquish. sometimes posts get ignored for whatever reason. A while ago I started to transcribe a long interview with joni out of one of the UK broadsheets. After i had sent three long emails and had about another 4 to go, i quit! I was royally pissed off. Why? Becuase not one person even acknowledged those mails. So I stopped mid interview and to this day no one has ever commented on it. And I am still here and still get repsonses! ( if you want loads of responses, try writing something like ' I don't like such and such a song that Joni wrote!!!) Anyway, the point is welcome to this wondeful list and sorry that you feel excluded. Jump in again and introduce yourself. I gather you in the UK? bw colin > > > Matthew - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:58:25 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: VG8 Sound Deb Messling wrote: >>I don't want to dismiss or invalidate your opinions, Fred, but is it >>at all possible you haven't given the later albums a fair listen? >>Because to me, TTT is especially melodic, even though I'm wavering >>on the VG8. Remember that "a fair listen" to a Joni CD may >>constitute more than the average listens, because the beauty of the >>songs takes time to emerge. That goes for her early albums, too, at >>least for me. When I got her first album as a Christmas present in >>1969, I remember that my first impressions were that the tunesgs >>were BORING! Can you believe it? Luckily I was persistent even as a >>young teen, and by January I loved them. For me, the thing about great melodies is that they are always beautiful and memorable the very first time I hear them. Believe me, I've given TTT more than a fair chance, and it's not just TTT, it's almost every song on every studio album since DJRD ... Joni's melodic genius somehow dissipated. It makes me sad. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:20:43 -0600 From: dave fairall / beth miller Subject: AGREE W/ KAKKI That is exactly what happened to me with DJRD. That album when it came out in 1977 truly sounded like really weird shit to me. I played it "repeatedly" trying to get it and feeling bereft that it did not grab me like most of the albums that preceeded it. Back then I thought Silky Veils of Ardor was the only "real" song on the album and I sort of appreciated Paprika Plains because I thought it was so trippy, but overall it was just way out there to me. As for the DJRD lyrics, we all love them now that we've pored over and parsed them and become so familiar with them, but taken straight up, many of them are downright loopy. For those who have heard DJRD for the first time in recent years, try going back and listening to the popular music of the late 70s and then play DJRD and you may get some idea of just how out there it was at the time. However, 20 some years later I put it second to FTR for it's brilliance and beauty. That's why I need to wait awhile before I will really feel ready to assess it in comparison to the rest of her work. Kakki I agree that the first tunes on DJRD are incredible, especially years later. Talk to me , Jerhico, etc...... brilliant. I also think that some tunes on TTT are equally wonderful, like Man from Mars, the emotional range is killer, really touching. DF ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:32:54 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: Prince, diFranco and Joni (SJC) From: "lpeakes" Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 06:03:10 -0500 A friend of a friend of mine "went out" ( ahem! ) with Larry Klein this summer, so I sent my friend the recent post about Klein & Krall. When I saw my friend again, I mentioned the post came from the JMDL - I didn't rave about JM or anything (I think we were both in a rush, so I didn't have time - I'll add it wouldn't have taken me too long to start the rhapsody, but, as I say, we were hurried.) Last week, she had an Ani tape in her car's cassette player - and was just gushing. We didn't listen to the tape, 'cause we were gabbing, so I still haven't heard DiFranco. I think we even have one of her CDs here at the house, and I haven't listened! From her PR, and from my burnout as a pop/rock/alternative radio host (I'm in Public Radio now - seems to be the right fit) I made the assumption that Ani's long on rugged attitude and talk and short on melody and voice. I dismiss a lot of stuff right off the bat, though - I'll give the CD a try. I do sometimes miss being in the loop on the music scene - interesting how focus shifts - there's SO much to choose from that anyone with an appetite for variety can't stay allied and be satisfied, too. I am making a mental note to share my enthusiasm for Joni Mitchell's work with my friend as soon as I see her again! "Everything comes and goes.........." (Down to You) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:42:54 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: cliqueish?NJC Matthew Hall wrote: > > Why does no one ever respond to my posts? > > I have introduced myself before, but despite your obvious love for Joni, I > find this mailing list somewhat 'clique-ish' > > Matthew Sometimes there is a hot topic taking peoples attention, sometimes the volume is outrageous, sometimes (it happens to all of us) you make a statement which no one feels the need to elaborate on. Anyway, welcome to the list, and if you want to talk about Joni (or landscapes, or Bergman's nordic blues) you've come to the right place. Randy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:53:14 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: cliqueish? NJC In a message dated 1/29/00 2:14:49 PM US Central Standard Time, jim50@hall7068.freeserve.co.uk writes: << Why does no one ever respond to my posts? I have introduced myself before, but despite your obvious love for Joni, I find this mailing list somewhat 'clique-ish' >> Matthew, believe me, a clique is what this group is definitely NOT. We are a bunch of folks who are diverse in EVERY way, yet maintain respect and interest in each other by virtue of our shared love of Joni. That being said, welcome to the list, if I have not already done so - I try and throw a "welcome" out there if someone introduces themselves. If I neglected that in your case, I apologize... The list is a funny thing. Rest assured that LOTS of people read everything you say here. If you make a statement like "Joni is one of the most bestest composers ever and her work has moved me for years", it probably won't spark much discussion because most of us feel the same way. If you ask a question, generally it gets a quick answer. For instance, earlier today, a total stranger/lurker who didn't even identify themselves asked about The Hissing Demos. Before I could respond, Stephen had stepped up to the plate and helped this person out. No clique there. In my opinion, you haven't posted enough to establish an identity. Tell us more about yourself, and chime in on a thread whenever you can and feel moved to do so. And don't feel hurt if you don't get a "great post!" or "Right on!" that often. Do you really want the clutter in your e-mail box? I've been here about two years now and I've never seen anybody pushed out by a gang or ignored, even though all of us probably feel like we're communicating in a vaccuum sometimes. Also, if you're on the digest as opposed to the list, it makes it trickier to take part in the faster-paced threads. So consider switching to the list if you're currently in digest mode. Hang in there, Matthew, you're among friends. Bob NP: Joni, "My Best to You", (loving the warmth of TTT on this cold, rainy South Carolina day, and grateful it ain't SNOW!) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:56:51 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: broad brush NJC In a message dated 1/29/00 3:55:16 PM US Central Standard Time, FredNow@aol.com writes: << see...its not the shit....its the fan ... like I said. >> Okay, I admit it, I must be an idiot, because I haven't a clue what this means. I know what shit is, and I know what a fan is, but what does this mean in the context of any discussion topic? Also, it should get an NJC I would think, although Joni sings "love takes so much SHIT" and "stone cold Grace behind her FAN", I don't think either of these lyrics are being referenced. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:56:48 EST From: ZZScotty@aol.com Subject: Re: cliqueish? NJC Hello Matthew. I am fairly new to this list (four months), and have posted only a few times. I agree that the list can seem cliqueish at times. However, I attribute some of this to the fact that, obviously, many of the frequent posters have been here a long time, and know each other. However, I was warmly greeted by a few people when I first came on. I looked back at the posts you sent in December and this month. In December, you asked for someone to write a profile on Joni, particularly for those who aren't familiar with her. This was a worthy request, and I hope that someone volunteers. I personally do not feel qualified to take on such a project. When BSN comes out, I imagine we will see gobs of reviews, and I would be surprised if anyone here would refuse you permission to reprint them. Please hang in there. I think that this Discussion List has much to promise. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:59:40 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Prince, diFranco and Joni NJC Lisa wrote: << I made the assumption that Ani's long on rugged attitude and talk and short on melody and voice. I dismiss a lot of stuff right off the bat, though - I'll give the CD a try. >> "To the Teeth" is the first Ani I've picked up because I always felt the same way, but it is a wonderful record. And hey, if you don't like it, she'll put out another one in a couple of months! :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:56:37 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: VG-8 Info Pat wrote: >one question i have. when you play through alternate tuning patches, are the multiple sound options >limited? in other words, are there more sound features available in standard tuning patches? if the >answere is no, then i would think Joni likes her ttt sound, and to a degree, much of the ti sound as >well. i think it sounds sort of like a pipe organ. i like it, but what i think i missed the most on ttt was > the mixture of sounds. This ties in with something I've been ruminating about that maybe Michael Paz can answer. How many of the "patches" were available to Joni when she first started using the VG-8? It sounds like currently there are endless sounds available, but perhaps it was limited in the beginning. I wonder what TTT would have sounded like if Joni had used a greater variety of "patches" in the songs. Maybe it would not have all "sounded so much alike." It sounds like she is basically using the same patch throughout, except for in Harlem in Havana and Lead Balloon - those songs are the two that stand out as "different" to me in the album. > harlem was the best for that. after that, it seems monochrome to me..verses >say...hejira or c&s. >>(harlem also reminds me of cotton avenue)pat In another case of synchro, not ten minutes ago I was running down some Joni songs in my head and I mentally "dialed in" Harlem but the lyrics to Cotton Avenue started playing, I swear to you!! Kakki NP: Joni - Lead Balloon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:11:32 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: broad brush In a message dated 1/29/00 4:56:51 PM, SCJoniGuy wrote: ><< see...its not the shit....its the fan > > ... like I said. >> > >Okay, I admit it, I must be an idiot, because I haven't a clue what this means. >I know what shit is, and I know what a fan is, but what does this mean in the >context of any discussion topic? I think Siresorrow was referencing my quote in the JMDL Gallery: "It's not the shit, it's the fan," as in, "when the shit hits the fan." In other words, shit, in and of itself, is not that big a deal, everyone has some, it's when it hits the fan that it really becomes a problem. And the reason he referenced it is that a rant against certain composers was mistakenly attributed to me ... through a series of quoted and re-quoted quotes, the shit hit the fan and got really messy. And Joni was in there somewhere, hence, the JC. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:07:42 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: BSN (Billie Holiday) NJC > There is a beautiful book by Robert O'Meally that has many wonderful > photographs and is more about Billie's evolution as an artist than an > actual biography. I realized I'd forgotten to include the name of O'Meally's book. It is called 'Lady Day, The Many Faces of Billie Holiday'. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 19:27:38 EST From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: WHEN IS THE BOX SET COMING OUT? There are so many box sets out there,some of them of artist far less deserving of the boxed set treatment then Joni.Are there any plans for a Joni Mitchell box set in the recent future,and if not,why on earth not??? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:29:15 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: NJC Fiona Apple NJC > > Michael Y's lurk mode makes it tough for me to keep up with what's out there > on the edge...:~) > Michael, why was MeShell's brilliant "Bitter" ignored across the board in > everyone's "best of" lists? > > Bob > Although I like 'Bitter', I don't share your high opinion of it, Bob. MeShell has a gorgeous voice and she sure knows how to use it. But I find some of the material on this record lacking & the production to be a tad on the pretentious/overly dramatic side. She has some nice thoughts & phrases tucked away in there but repeating some of them 10 or 15 times without much of any variation in the delivery is just plain overkill, as far as I'm concerned. Still I think MeShell is a talent to be reckoned with. That voice is killer. And she sure puts her heart & soul into what she does. I saw 'Plantation Lullabies' today at Circuit City and almost picked it up. Michael, can you tell me a bit about that record? I did find the HDCD 'Miles of Aisles' for $12.99 and 'Bette of Roses' for $9.98. Snatched both of those up right quick! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:36:15 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: bitterness NJC & In defence of Tube *warning* I might be putting my foot in my mouth again with this post :-) After to replying to a few previous posts, Tube states: "Well, I think I was being bitter about the early aristocrats keeping the best art for themselves.... and goes on to explain his ideas about Music and Art in a way that leads it self open to some great discussion. All these ideas were expressed in his early posts on this subject, but the way those posts were written did not promote the discussion they should have done. The fact that they were written in an angry and emotional way promoted some angry emotional repsonses. Debra Shea and Catman were in a minority when they could see past this and wondered why people weren't discussing the issues that he had raised. I also think that the format of a discussion list is a contributor to conversations going off the rails. It's easier to get a face to face discussion back on track when several exchanges can occur in a minute and you can more easily explain what you mean than in this format when people, on average, are replying to messages posted 12 hours ago. Tube has great ideas especially when he puts them in a form where we can either agree or totally disagree with the ideas without having to attack the person behind the ideas. I'm not saying that we shouldn't get angry or emotional, but let's direct that anger and emotion towards ideas and not people and keep the threads alive :-) It is very sad though when we forget to discuss ideas and instead launch into personal attacks :-( ps If you haven't already done so, go back and re-read Tubes posts and consider the *ideas* behind them. Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Van Diemans Land ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:59:20 +1000 From: john low Subject: Re: VG-8 Info Bob M. wrote about Michael Paz's performances at the Jonifest: "Those of you who have heard it know what I'm talking about..." Bob sent me a CD with a selection of the performances from Ashara's and I have been listening to it over Christmas and the New Year. Michael is represented on this 'sampler' with a number of songs and I heartily endorse what Bob has said. The warm intimacy of his voice is deeply moving. His versions of "Love Puts On A New Face", "Song For Sharon" and "Hejira" are just marvellous. And, Michael, I don't want any payment for saying this! :-) I sent a copy of this sampler to Ange (she expressed her sentiments about it recently) and would be happy to make a cassette copy for any Australian jmdlers who would like to hear how much talent there is on this list. There is, as critics sometimes say, not a bad track on it! Email me privately if you are interested in this - or in a copy of the Los Angeles radio interview made available to us by Kakki & Co. The transcript of the latter has been posted to the list, I know, but you don't get the Joni laughter!!! John (in Sydney). __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://start.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:08:22 -0800 From: Scott Price Subject: TTT Rediscovered On the eve of "Taming The Tiger's" supplantation as the most recently-released Joni album, I have been spending even more time with this colorful project. Over the years I have regularly played Joni's "current" album, along with a mix of older stuff. It's like, if I have the slightest hesitation about *which* Joni to play, I'll automatically reach for the "new" one. Sometimes the latest album gets to be two or three or four years old before the next one comes along, but that just adds to the anticipation of each new project. :-) So, before the "Both Sides Now" CD monopolizes my stereo, I've been working TTT into my playlists a lot. For me, TTT falls into the "improves with age" category. What is it about her work that continues to offer inspiration and wonderment time and again? The cliche answer may be "ahead of its time," but it's a good answer...in this case, the right answer. If I had to pick one significant new insight gleaned during this latest round of listening to the album, it would be my newly-found appreciation for the VG-8. While I couldn't criticize her for switching to this setup because of its ease of storing tunings, at times I really longed for the acoustic guitar sounds. I had felt that the electric guitar was a *substitute* for the acoustic, used only because it's easier to play and keep in tune, and as such, was accepted...on some songs even preferred...but lacked the backbone and the soul of the familiar acoustic. But I have come to look at the VG-8, and TTT, in a new light. Kind of like gazing across a broad vista. Instead of honing in on the "sameness" of the VG-8, I've incorporated its sonics in with the whole package. I agree with Fred that the melodies are nowhere near as memorable as they were in the first several albums...but I don't think it has been Joni's purpose of late to write catchy tunes...melodies that stick in your head...rather she has progressed beyond simply creating songs to painting pictures with music and giving the audience a dramatic presentation, leaving them with a whole different outlook. I can't believe I'll ever be humming "Harlem in Havana" to myself, but the *images* conjured up during that song are as vivid and powerful as anything she's ever done. I don't go away from a TTT session being as impressed upon with the structure (and genius) of the chords and melodies as I may be with the earlier Joni, but the lasting feeling is as strong as ever, due to the overall production and presentation. The emotive licks from Wayne Shorter, the delicious rhythms of Brian Blade, and the far-out synthy layers of keyboards and guitar all blend together with her voice to put up an ever-changing set of images like the carnival (Harlem), achingly missing a friend (Man From Mars), wistfully longing for a lover (Love Puts on a New Face), the ruthless soldiers (No Apologies), the unabashed hope (Stay in Touch, My Best To You) and on and on. These songs are not so much an accumulation of tracks as they are a homogeneously crafted series of images. Kind of like a play instead of a collection of vignettes, or a saga instead of a compilation of poems. They do not evoke for me the label "great song" so much as "great picture!" Along with the paintings in the CD liner, Joni offers an artistic experience that is lasting and emotional, with the most prevalent theme being "contentment." Not so much the seeker of truth and writer of confession as before, we are not able to project ourselves into the songs as much as we did earlier, but that's not the objective. What she's giving us now is the opportunity to look at the big picture. She's older and wiser, and I believe happier for having been able to sort out a lot of things in her life. This perhaps puts into perspective why she's not trying to utilize more discernable melodies or catchy hooks--they're not compatible with her art at this time. Additionally, she has taken a more minimalist approach to her lyrics which requires an adjustment on the part of the listener who is perhaps expecting more verbosity. And finally, I think it's easier for the listener to powerfully relate to the music when it's "down." When faced with melancholy, whether our own or the artist's, we more readily "connect" with the music because it offers comfort. Taming the Tiger is less about angst and more about acceptance of one's place in the world. One of my favorite Joni quotes is (paraphrasing) "never mind what the song does for me...what does it do for YOU?" And I've found that by letting the music simply happen...that is, not singling out the melody lines or the chordal movements or the synthy sonics, but becoming adrift in the waves...a new appreciation is achieved...a new awareness, a new set of pictures...a new way of enjoying the music. And that is why I believe it's ahead of its time. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:35:35 -0500 From: waytoblu@mindspring.com Subject: Re: NJC: In defense of Tube Debra wrote: >This reproach doesn't make any sense to me at all. I've read all the posts and, >unless I've missed something or didn't get some messages, I can't see where >anyone has called Roman/Tube ANYTHING. People are responding to what Tube's >written and, since his posts have been emotional rants, he's going to get some >emotional responses. It's an energetic conversation, so... what's your reason >for this "let's play nice" request? Name calling isn't happening and tying your >scolding of posters to Wally is downright offensive. Thank you Debra, I couldn't have said that any better. I don't believe anyone has called anybody any names. I enjoy being able to use this list as a forum sometimes to discuss things. When things that I believe in very strongly are challenged, I am going to respond as should anyone. I don't think that anyone bears anybody else any ill will. Anything I write has been very carefully considered and comes from very, very, strong beliefs and values. The objective, I hope, is to come to a clearer understanding of where everybody is coming from. Express what you feel and be honest. I admire Tube for sharing his beliefs and feelings. I think we merely seek to understand each other better which is what music is all about, isn't it? Victor http://www.mindpring.com/~waytoblu/Tangled.htm NP:Dylan "Gotta Serve Somebody" > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:28:03 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: bitterness NJC & In defence of Tube (md) In a message dated 00-01-29 19:47:26 EST, alorimer@tassie.net.au writes: << "Well, I think I was being bitter about the early aristocrats keeping the best art for themselves.... >> To my knowledge all the churches in Rome were open to the "public". Berninis art alone is priceless and breathtaking. Botticellis. Tintorettos hanging everywhere. St.Peters basilica. Chartres. Nantes. I dont believe that Michaelangelos 'David' was kept from the public. The Duomo in Florence. Berninis fountains were in the middle of the Piazza Navona. The Haggia Sophia in Istanbull. The best art in the Reinassance was all religious and open to the public at all times so Tubes all wet. Totally all wet about the "elite only" nonsense. Mozart wrote several operas for the masses and as is told in the movie Amadeus there were operatic performances going on for the masses all the time. The problem with his thinking is that hes ignorant of art history or maybe hes just throwing out a buch of nonsense just to get the conversation going. I think hes hanging out at too many Communist coffee houses and Cafes. marcel. still not taking the Tube-atola serious. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 01:30:55 +0000 From: catman Subject: What's In A NameNJC According to a tv prog, the following are real places: Dildo in Newfoundland Can(Pack your bags MG) Climax in Colarado Intercourse In Pennsylvania Wet Beaver Creek in Arizona(Lets not go there) Bastard in Norway Arsoli in Italy Turdo in Romania - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 01:33:16 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Prince, diFranco and Joni (SJC) > > > Last week, she had an Ani tape in her car's cassette player - and was > just gushing. We didn't listen to the tape, 'cause we were gabbing, so I > still haven't heard DiFranco. I think we even have one of her CDs here at > the house, and I haven't listened! From her PR, and from my burnout as a > pop/rock/alternative radio host (I'm in Public Radio now - seems to be the > right fit) I made the assumption that Ani's long on rugged attitude and talk > and short on melody and voice. This is just my opinion: I bough an ani cd cos of all the talk of her here. Well i was shocked. i have never heard anything so awful(cept maybe the Sex Pistols). > I dismiss a lot of stuff right off the bat, > though - I'll give the CD a try. I do sometimes miss being in the loop on > the music scene - interesting how focus shifts - there's SO much to choose > from that anyone with an appetite for variety can't stay allied and be > satisfied, too. > > I am making a mental note to share my enthusiasm for Joni Mitchell's > work with my friend as soon as I see her again! > > "Everything comes and goes.........." > (Down to You) - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 01:46:54 -0000 From: "Matthew Hall" Subject: Re: cliqueish? Hello everybody, Thanks for all of your replies, I didn't mean to come across aggressive with my post, I just wanted to provoke some sort of response, which I suppose it did; everyone has been really nice. Of course I didn't expect everyone to fall at my feet when I first introduced myself, but I realise now that this is a very busy list, so obviously you can't respond to everything. Anyway, now I've got your attention...lol This is my intoduction. I am 18 years old, I live in the UK, not that far from Liverpool. I will be going to study at Liverpool University this September. As for Joni, I first got into her music last summer when I bought 'Blue'. I'd heard about her mostly through Tori Amos (she's my number one I have to say), who's cover of 'A Case Of You' I completely loved - it's still one of my favourite Joni songs. The Joni albums I own are: Blue Court and Spark Hejira Hits Misses Taming The Tiger The hits and misses collections are fantastic as an introduction to Joni's work. I normally think buying a 'hits' collection is a bit of a cop out as opposed to buying a proper album, but it really did amaze me. I actually prefer 'misses' 'cause that seems to have more of her '90s work on it. I've read what you've all said about TTT and I really like it. When I first got it (just a couple of weeks ago) it didn't move me whatsoever - I liked it really only because it was Joni, but that was also the reason why I gave it more time. I don't know much about the VG8 at all, but I think the album is really warm and it suits her voice now. The album's still pretty intense but of course it's different from before; after 30 years there's no point taking steps back. It also has a couple of my fave Joni tracks on it: 'Harlem In Havana' and 'The Crazy Cries Of Love' I have to say I do prefer her 'Blue' and 'Court and Spark', probably because I identify with them a bit more, but I'm also looking forward to getting 'Turbulent Indigo' next. Even though, in the store near me, it's more expensive than all of the others. That's all I have to say for now, thanks for reading if you made it this far. Oh and when is 'Both Sides Now' out in the UK? Matthew and... apart from TI, which album would you recommend next? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 01:59:50 -0000 From: "Matthew Hall" Subject: Re: Prince, diFranco and Joni NJC To The Teeth is an amazing record. So funky, but really raw too. I got a copy free from Susan at Righteous Babe, because I was reviewing it for the fanzine. If you want to read it: - --------------------------------------- to the teeth Ani Difranco Righteous Babe Records Like These? Bob Dylan 'Blood On the Tracks' Beth Orton 'Central Reservation' Alanis Morissette 'Supposed Former Infatuation Junkie' Sinead O'Connor 'I Do Not Want What I Haven't Got' Then give this one a try Ani Difranco is a pioneer. 29 years old and with a prolific output of 13 albums since 1990, she has sold more than 2.5 million records. As the CEO of her own 'Righteous Babe' record label, she earns more money per unit sold than any other artist does. She is fierce. She is funny. She is a "stompy-booted, butch folk-singer chick," She is this. She is that. She is a lot of things to an ever-increasing number of people, but the 'folk-singer' part describes her best; that's what she is. 'To The Teeth' is the record that will end her decade. A decade that, unsurprisingly, started in 1990 with the release of her eponymous debut album. 13 albums later, it would be a worry if she hadn't moved on, but 'To The Teeth' signals a significant change in the recording process for Ani, by establishing a studio in her own home. Subsequently, the album sounds funky - with a capital F U N K and Y. Collaborations with Maceo Parker (the legendary James Brown sideman) and The Artist Formerly Known as Prince add further flava; Parker appears on three tracks including the standout 'Swing' (also featuring a rap from Corey Parker), which blends hip hop, jazz, folk and whatever else you care for in a six minute roller coaster ride, driven by a classic Difranco lyric: 'Are you weary as water/in a faucet left dripping/ with an incessant sadness/like a sad record skipping.'. It's worth noting though, that despite the formidable guitar playing (she also plays bass, drums, piano, organ, even banjo at stages throughout the album) and the input of the guest musicians, it is Difranco's voice which so consistently proves to be the most engaging instrument. This is especially true on penultimate track 'Providence' as she goes from whisper to a scream in a second. The Artist also lends his vocals to this one, a song in which Ani laments relationships lost and chances missed. The sense of melancholy here would make any other track that followed it seem insignificant by comparison, but the closing 'I Know This Bar' manages to pull out the stops further: 'I know this bar/with a jukebox full of medicine', it is indeed a tonic. The opening, title track is another gem, where she denounces America's gun laws: 'the sun is setting on the century/and we are armed to the teeth'. At seven minutes, the casual listener may find the song too long, but this is by no means a 'casual' album anyway, and the sad thing is, she could have gone on for even longer. Having said that, there is a playfulness to this album that has arisen through a much more relaxed studio environment and also Ani's increasing confidence as a bandleader and producer. The album is quite long at just under 72 minutes, but Difranco doesn't waste a moment of our time. In fact, she manages to remind us, that amidst all the talk of million dollar deals, majors vs. independents, stompy boots, feminism, green hair etc. that she is a folk singer. A brilliant folk singer, and for that, she is a maverick in the truest sense of the word. Matthew Hall - --------------------------------------- David Lahm also sent me a copy of 'Jazz takes on Joni' which I reviewed. See ya Matthew ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 02:09:52 -0000 From: "Matthew Hall" Subject: Re: What's In A NameNJC > According to a tv prog, the following are real places: > > Dildo in Newfoundland Can(Pack your bags MG) > Climax in Colarado > Intercourse In Pennsylvania > Wet Beaver Creek in Arizona(Lets not go there) > Bastard in Norway > Arsoli in Italy > Turdo in Romania Come on, admit where you saw it! Graham Norton! That is such a coolprogramme, very rude too. Matthew ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:27:36 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: JM Realvideos For those who don't own the tape, there are Joni Mitchell RealVideos available at http://www.criticalpoint.com/jmframes.htm Songs features are Two Grey Rooms, Lakota, Night Ride Home, The Beat of Black Wings, and Come in from the Cold. Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ I love cats. They give the home a heartbeat. - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:14:55 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: bitterness NJC & In defence of Tube (md) Marcel said >I think hes hanging out at too many Communist coffee >houses and Cafes.... still not taking the Tube-atola serious. The whole point of my post was that people weren't replying to (Comrade) Tube's views on Art, but to the emotionally charged nature of his original tirades. His latest posts have been written in a way that allows people such as yourself to express a completely opposite viewpoint on the same issues with the emphasis being on the issues and not the individual. We don't have to go over the top and be nice to each other all the time, or be "politically correct" all the time, but a good discussion on Art or Music should stay focused on the issues, not the personalities. It's fine to poke a bit of fun at people, but not to crucify them for their views. Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Tasmania which has been voted "Best Temperate Island In the World" by readers of Conde Naste Traveler :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 22:03:21 EST From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: origin of "Jerk" Tube asks about the word "jerk" which has nothing to do with soda jerks. The derogatory term "jerk" in American English is a short, more polite version of "jerk-off", something we used to call each other in junior high. The British equivalent would be "wanker". When I hear the word "jerk" any more, it seems kind of quaint to me. Like the words "neat" or "nifty" or "a-hole". - - Clark np: Martha Wash ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 22:14:44 -0500 From: waytoblu@mindspring.com Subject: Joni Mitchell live 3-7-83 I was rummaging through a bag of tapes and I found a maxell tape with live Joni on it that was apparently broadcast on some Spanish radio station since at the beginning of the tape some man is speaking really fast in Spanish. The first two songs are Both Sides Now and Free Man in Paris. Does anybody know which concert this is? The date is 3/7/83. Victor http://www.mindspring.com/~waytoblu/Tangled.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 22:29:33 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: cliqueish? In a message dated 1/29/00 7:59:32 PM US Central Standard Time, jim50@hall7068.freeserve.co.uk writes: << The Joni albums I own are: Blue Court and Spark Hejira Hits Misses Taming The Tiger and... apart from TI, which album would you recommend next? >> Thanks for the info, Matthew...I would definitely say that For The Roses should be your next buy if you like that Blue/Court & Spark stuff the best. Many folks put it at the top of their list as their favorite Joni. But you'll get a couple different recommendations I'm sure...at least I hope you do! ;~D Bob NP: Otis Clay, "Wild Horses" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 22:36:54 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: WHEN IS THE BOX SET COMING OUT? In a message dated 1/29/00 6:30:29 PM US Central Standard Time, Relayer211@aol.com writes: << Are there any plans for a Joni Mitchell box set in the recent future,and if not,why on earth not??? >> Joni considers "Hits & Misses" to be her box set...hopefully she'll consent to letting the proper archivist go through the files and release a rarities box with some more demos, alternative takes, rare live material, etc. That's what I'm looking for... But I'm sure she has no interest in sifting through her old stuff to put such a package together so maybe we'll never see such a thing. Next time I see her I'm gonna try and convince her to put ME in charge of the project! :~) Bob NP: Clarence 'Gatemouth' Brown: "Ventilator Blues" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 22:39:42 EST From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Re: cliqueish? In a message dated 1/29/00 10:32:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: << I would definitely say that For The Roses should be your next buy if you like that Blue/Court & Spark stuff the best. Many folks put it at the top of their list as their favorite Joni. >> I think "FTR" is one of Joni's best.The songs are so deep and profound."Banquet","Cold blue steel and sweet fire","lesson in survival" ect... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 00:16:07 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: CD e-stores Hello JMDLers, As we approach the release date for the deLuxe edition of Both Sides Now, here's a reminder. You can help JMDL & buy CDs at the same time! http://www.cdnow.com/from=sr-159240 http://cdu2.cduniverse.com/asp/cdu_main.asp?frm=lk_jmdl Each of these e-stores will refund 5% of sales made from these links to offset the cost of operating the Joni Mitchell Discussion List. Please consider using them as a way to thank Les for all that he has done for the JM Internet community. In fact, if you bookmark these URLs, it will all happen automatically. As the song says, "More fulfilling -and less frustrating." All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu in Highland Heights, Kentucky, a suburb of Cincinnati, Ohio, USA. ** All earthly comfort to Wally.** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 00:59:34 -0500 From: Walter R Rodgers III Subject: first impressions I have to agree with those of you who find that Joni's music unfolds over time. A case in point for me was HOSL. It was the 3rd or 4th album of Joni's I listened to about 15 years ago and at first it was sort of a let down. After Blue, C&S and LOTC, it just didn't seem to fit the mold I had formed in my head... or didn't stroke the same strings. But slowly I opened up to it and today I would usually put it at the top of the list. That process of letting an album like HOSL weave it's way into me is for me pure pleasure. I have found that over the years, other albums of Joni's have done sort of the same thing... different paths, different strings and ended in different places, but wove their way into me just the same. I think alot of it has to do with finding the real essence of what emotion joni was trying to express, and feel it the way she did. For me, it just takes time. Walter ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #58 **************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?