From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #57 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Saturday, January 29 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 057 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: NJC: In defense of Tube [dsk ] $35 BSN ["Alan Lorimer" ] Re: BSN (Billie Holiday) NJC ["Mark or Travis" ] synth , VG-8, recording questions [CarltonCT@aol.com] Re: Trouble With The Tiger (was Re: BSN) ["Kakki" ] Re: VG8 Sound [FredNow@aol.com] Re: she moves in mysterious waysNJC [catman ] Re: NJC: In defense of Tube [catman ] Re: VG-8 Info NJC [MGVal@aol.com] Re: broad brush [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: VG8 Sound [Deb Messling ] joni dream: really NJC- just prattle [Wolfebite@aol.com] Garland NJC [Roman ] The Lone Ranger [Roman ] personal transactions NJC [Roman ] Soda jerks [Roman ] recreation [Roman ] Oscar Wilde [Roman ] bitterness NJC [Roman ] "Clouds" is underrated! [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: The buck starts here NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: NJC Fiona Apple NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: VG-8 Info NJC - box set request [luvart@snet.net] Re: Soda jerks NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: recreation [luvart@snet.net] Re: recreationNJC [catman ] Re: The buck starts here NJC [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: recreationNJC [MGVal@aol.com] Re: VG8 Sound ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #56 [SMC1254@aol.com] Re: VG-8 Info [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: NJC Fiona Apple NJC [Randy Remote ] Re: Trouble With The Tiger (was Re: BSN) [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: synth , VG-8, recording questions [Randy Remote ] Re: Soda jerks NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Re: VG8 Sound [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Trouble With The 10th World [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Lyrics and Music (was Re: VG8 Sound) [David Wright Subject: Re: NJC: In defense of Tube Chilihead2@aol.com wrote: > I mean do we need to be name calling in here when Wally's saying good-bye to > us? This reproach doesn't make any sense to me at all. I've read all the posts and, unless I've missed something or didn't get some messages, I can't see where anyone has called Roman/Tube ANYTHING. People are responding to what Tube's written and, since his posts have been emotional rants, he's going to get some emotional responses. It's an energetic conversation, so... what's your reason for this "let's play nice" request? Name calling isn't happening and tying your scolding of posters to Wally is downright offensive. And in general, not just in reponse to this particular message from Chili: This kind of complaint really annoys me. A discussion is barely started, there's some disagreement, and some people right away are doing the "let's play nice" routine. What does that mean, anyway? Never disagree? Never be a little uncomfortable with whatever's happening? Well, that seems unnatural to me, and, hey, it passes. Crabby me, you'd think I'd just quit smoking or something. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 19:32:42 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: $35 BSN Catgirl said >Go to Barnes and Noble.com, they have it for $44.95 then type in >password to get $10.00 off. That make it $34.99-whoo-hoo! >Password code is CTENOFF >Catgirl ps you can only use this code ONCE! If you've already used CTENOFF, I have 9 more $10 off $40 order coupons from Barnes & Noble listed on my web site :-) http://jonimitchell.freeservers.com/ Alan Lorimer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 00:39:20 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: BSN (Billie Holiday) NJC Is there a particular book about her life story that you could > recommend? > Thanks again for sharing. > > Jimmy Donald Clarke's 'Wishing on the Moon' is pretty good as a biography. There is a beautiful book by Robert O'Meally that has many wonderful photographs and is more about Billie's evolution as an artist than an actual biography. Both authors had the immense boon of being able to access material collected by Linda Kuehl. Kuehl had planned to write her own bio of Lady Day and did extensive field work, interviewing scores of people who knew her. She even found people who knew Billie as a young girl in Baltimore who were instrumental in dispelling some of the myths that Lady created about her childhood. Unfortunately, Kuehl died before she could write her book. I actually found O'Meally's email address and wrote him. He was very gracious in responding to me. He said he got to listen to Kuehl's taped interviews and it was crucial to him in writing his book. It helped him determine the 'true voices' among the many that Kuehl interviewed. Clarke wasn't able to actually hear the tapes but was allowed access to the transcripts of these interviews. There is also a book by John Chilton called 'Billie's Blues' that was written before Linda Kuehl did her research. It has a lot of gaps and is kind of sketchy but, as I remember, is reliable as far as it goes. And for what it's worth, 'Lady Sings the Blues' is very entertaining & will give you an idea of what Billie was like. It's written in first person & William Dufty claims it was taken almost entirely from various interviews with Billie. It does seem to be a good indicator of what it might have been like to listen to Lady talk. Unfortunately, in this book anyway, she doesn't seem to have cared much whether what she said was true or not as long as it made a good story and sold lots of books. Mark in Seattle np: Lambert Hendricks & Ross - Fiesta in Blue ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 04:02:56 EST From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: synth , VG-8, recording questions Hey Michael and other guitarists - So, what should a fledgling guitarist buy? What's a good, reasonably priced electric guitar? Are some of them more suited to using with a VG-8 or a synthesizer? What's a good, reasonably priced portable amp? And regardless of whether the VG-8 is a synth or a modeler, does it have the capacities of a synthesizer? Do you have to buy both? Does anyone know what synth Pat Metheny uses to get all those incredible sounds? What can anyone tell us about how Joni records her songs? Recording my own songs lately, they are being recorded in fragments which are pieced back together. As an example, the intro is recorded first, followed by the first 8 bars of the verse. If the next bars of the Chorus are the same, it's just copied by the computer until you get to the bridge. In her oldest albums, does anyone know if Joni ever "spliced" together the same guitar parts? One disadvantage of this method is that you can't throw in a half a bar, or take meaningful pauses unless they are accurately counted out, much less go for some meter defying syncopations. I would say Joni probably never recorded this way unless it was on DED under the watchful eye of Thomas Dolby. Thanking you in advance, Clark NP: Pet Shop Boys, NIGHTLIFE ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 01:20:49 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Trouble With The Tiger (was Re: BSN) Fred wrote in answer to this question: > >>Why does it seem to me that so many of the > tracks [on TTT] sound remarkably > >>alike, if not in melody or subject matter, then > ambience or tone? > > Partly because they *are* very alike, but mostly because they just aren't > very inspired, musically speaking; in their note and chord choices ... the > melodies, the songs ... are just not that good or memorable. As opposed to > those on For The Roses, which is, musically speaking, everything that Taming > The Tiger is not. I'm very much on the same page as you with respect to Joni's early songs and For The Roses, but don't feel I can't quite sum up TTT adequately yet. While the VG-8-ized album does not grab me like her earlier works, when I heard some of the songs pre-release done on guitar and piano, they *did* grab me like in the old days. I'm thinking here of the original piano version of Man From Mars, and the early acoustic versions of Love Puts on A New Face and, to a lesser degree, Love Cries (early CCOL) and Facelift. There is something very layered, beautiful and memorable in these earlier renditions that is somehow lost, IMO, in the VG-8 conversion. (I feel the same way about the pared down renditions of the songs on the early HOSL demos, which immediately grabbed me more than listening to 25 years of the HOSL album proper.) Where the use of the VG-8 works and shines best to my ears is in Harlem in Havana, Lead Balloon and possibly Taming The Tiger, and those seem to be the songs which were originally composed using the VG-8. Here's a theory - maybe some of the full glory of her music originally composed on acoustic guitar and piano was a bit lost in the "translation" to VG-8 because it was still a pretty new tool for Joni and she might not have fully considered what may get lost in that translation? Could it be like any other kind of translation where some of the the original substance inevitably gets lost? I suspend much of my judgment for TTT for now because I get this nagging feeling that in another 10 or 20 years or so, it's all going to become perfectly clear to me and suddenly sound like one of the most brilliant works she has ever done. That is exactly what happened to me with DJRD. That album when it came out in 1977 truly sounded like really weird shit to me. I played it "repeatedly" trying to get it and feeling bereft that it did not grab me like most of the albums that preceeded it. Back then I thought Silky Veils of Ardor was the only "real" song on the album and I sort of appreciated Paprika Plains because I thought it was so trippy, but overall it was just way out there to me. As for the DJRD lyrics, we all love them now that we've pored over and parsed them and become so familiar with them, but taken straight up, many of them are downright loopy. For those who have heard DJRD for the first time in recent years, try going back and listening to the popular music of the late 70s and then play DJRD and you may get some idea of just how out there it was at the time. However, 20 some years later I put it second to FTR for it's brilliance and beauty. That's why I need to wait awhile before I will really feel ready to assess it in comparison to the rest of her work. Kakki NP: Joni - Here's To You ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 04:37:36 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: VG8 Sound "Eric Taylor" wrote: >I admit it took me dozens of listens to get >into TTT but now I consider it among her top five albums. I love the crisp >bell-like tone of her VG8. Her silky voice compliments the sound to a tee. >Joni's lyrics are as wonderful & more down to earth than ever! Harlem In >Havana, Love Puts On A New Face, Stay In Touch & Face Lift are as lyrically >brilliant as anything she has ever composed IMO. But where are the *melodies* that stick to your ribs, like (just to name a few) All I Want, Michael From Mountains, Help Me, Refuge Of The Road, I Don't Know Where I Stand, Both Sides Now, Amelia, A Case Of You, Little Green, My Old Man, Conversation, Banquet, Cold Blue Steel, Free Man In Paris, Dawntreader ... I could go on and on and on and on ... This is the woman who wrote some of the most brilliant and *memorable* melodies with chords (and even without on The Fiddle And The Drum) of all time, and, yes, we can all agree to disagree, but can you honestly say that the melodies on TTT are anywhere near the quality of the list above? Not even close! People keep lauding her lyrics, which is fine, but, c'mon ... where are the *tunes*?! - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:47:46 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: she moves in mysterious waysNJC > > > MG - modest author of "You Turn Me On, I'm A Vibrator" Mary Grace, I was wondering about you not writing to the list much and here you with a bang! LOL! - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:55:19 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: VG-8 Info > P.S. You know you you might try ringing up a music stor over there in > jolly old England and ask them if they have a Roland VG-8 in stock and > go over and see one in person and perhaps take it on a test drive. and look a fool!!! I wouldn't have clue how to test drive it! Can't play anything except with myself. - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:01:57 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC: In defense of Tube > This > kind of complaint really annoys me. A discussion is barely started, there's some > disagreement, and some people right away are doing the "let's play nice" > routine. What does that mean, anyway? Never disagree? Never be a little > uncomfortable with whatever's happening? Well, that seems unnatural to me, and, > hey, it passes. I agree with you debra. although I do not like to see people put down or name called. Like whoever it was that described Roman as bitter and other adjectives from various people. I can't see why we can't disagree without resorting to denigrating the person we disagree with.In the end, just on that mail from Roamn, no one is qualified to describe him as bitter or anything else. It may seem a minor thing but I feel it is not minor at all-it is one reason why things can get out of hand. bw colin > > > Crabby me, you'd think I'd just quit smoking or something. > > Debra Shea - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 07:36:29 EST From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: VG-8 Info NJC In a message dated 1/28/00 8:48:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: << Michael's work on the VG8 was SO wonderful, he inspired me to perform at Jonifest 2000 in New Orleans. His set at Ashara's was INCREDIBLE!! >> This is very true. When I got the JoniFest box set, Paz's tunes were the first thing that I went for in lieu of going through the songs in order or alphabetically or color code. IMO, Joni's singing on "Love Puts On A New Face," had a matter-of-fact spin to it. Meaning that as the male character in the song is lamenting that it "makes me feel helpless when you get this way," she comes back with a "that's-the-way-the-cookie-crumbles" "everyday love puts on a new face." Paz's rendition was plaintive and melancholy and twisted a hot poker into the memories of loves I had that struggled through similar situations. He is incredible. MG ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:14:22 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: broad brush In a message dated 1/28/00 11:13:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, FredNow@aol.com writes: << Whoa, Nellie! It wasn't me, it was Roman! I defended all those composers. Dude, please be careful wading through the quotes of quoted quotes. -Fred >> see...its not the shit....its the fan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:01:32 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: VG8 Sound I don't want to dismiss or invalidate your opinions, Fred, but is it at all possible you haven't given the later albums a fair listen? Because to me, TTT is especially melodic, even though I'm wavering on the VG8. Remember that "a fair listen" to a Joni CD may constitute more than the average listens, because the beauty of the songs takes time to emerge. That goes for her early albums, too, at least for me. When I got her first album as a Christmas present in 1969, I remember that my first impressions were that the tunesgs were BORING! Can you believe it? Luckily I was persistent even as a young teen, and by January I loved them. At 04:37 AM 1/29/00 EST, you wrote: >People keep lauding her lyrics, which is fine, but, c'mon ... where are the >*tunes*?! > >-Fred Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ I love cats. They give the home a heartbeat. - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:20:24 EST From: Wolfebite@aol.com Subject: joni dream: really NJC- just prattle hey all i had a dream that i was watching a car commercial and the upcoming version of BSN was playing in the background. i don't watch t.v. i haven't heard anything from the new album so it was odd. but the song- in my dream- was absolutely gorgeous. doug thinking now it would be fun if someone were able to compile all the various joni dreams that people have posted... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:30:46 +0100 From: Roman Subject: Garland NJC Eric Taylor wrote >I've been blasting *Judy Garland At Carnegie Hall* for the past hour & >am reduced to a quivering blob of teary goosebumps! Gee ZEUS that woman >could SING! YES she was great! I like the warm, velvety quality in her voice as well as when she's not belting. tube. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:41:03 +0100 From: Roman Subject: The Lone Ranger DW wrote: >I'm going to leap to Tube's defense, somewhat. I think it is >necessary to realize that Beethoven's music (and other composers from >that era) was produced directly by the aristocratic system. Wow, who was that masked man? I was gonna ask him to stay to dinner... tube ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:48:01 +0100 From: Roman Subject: personal transactions NJC Debra wrote: >So your work as an artist is all about "getting over" on someone? With >this hostile, derisive attitude I'm surprised you sell anything, since >transactions are often quite personal. Oh absolutely Debra, I just can't do the face-to-face stuff at all - The clients soon wise up from my body-language that I'm probably not on the right planet. That's why mrs tube does the actual selling for me. tube. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:34:35 +0100 From: Roman Subject: Soda jerks Funny this - As 'jerk' generally means, well, 'jerk' - (nurd, prat, insignificant little person) in America, I'd often wondered why these hard -working concoctors amd purveyors of fine refreshments were called thus. In my standard Windows 95 Word (or is it Publisher?) clip-art folder, there's picture of a soda-jerk called 'soda-jerk', and as I supposed that Microsoft was a company that strived to be politically correct, I concluded that it must be okay to call a soda jerk a soda jerk. But if I have offended, I apologise. Can someone please explain the origins of the phrase to this Englishman? tube ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:22:02 +0100 From: Roman Subject: recreation Vince wrote: >People should be in relationships because it enhances their life in some >way. No one should be needy of another person; that is not healthy, I >think IMHO. So my sister is happily married now because she loves the >guy, not because being his wife defines her life. To answer a number of people who have come back to me on my "art is just recreation" statement, what Vince says above about "needyness" sort of sums up the idea I'm trying to get across about art. Life would be dull and boring without art, sure, but we could hack it okay. It's not always healthy to need other people or things that badly to define our existence. We're a lot tougher than we think we are. tube ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:26:44 +0100 From: Roman Subject: Oscar Wilde Les wrote: >That song reminds me of the immortal line of Oscar Wilde's about the >death of Nancy in "Oliver Twist", which I may be paraphrasing slightly: >"It would take a heart of stone to read about it and not laugh" I finally saw 'Wilde' the other night on video, with Stephen Fry in the title role, who I adore as being one of the funniest men alive. I was however hugely dissapointed in the film, as very little of the above-sampled tremendous wit of Oscar Wilde was used in the movie. Fry was damned good in the part, but his comic talents as a master of British sarcastic wit were almost totally unused. What remained was a treatment differing little from previous screen biogs of Wilde, a depressing downhill ride into his demise in near obscurity, and barely a joke in sight to relieve us on the way. tube. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:14:54 +0100 From: Roman Subject: bitterness NJC Subject: Re: the chosen few(NJC) tube wrote: >I think you're probably making the common mistake that there's something >noble about art - There isn't. It's just recreation. It can communicate >an idea, embellish and add relief to the drudgery or functionality of an >everyday object or service, or, like wine, gladden the heart of man for >a season. Art is a blessing, not a right. We've been provided with >enough beauty in nature without really NEEDING to create anymore. waytoblu responded: >I'm sorry but I really do not understand what you are so bitter about. >Also, I don't think you understood what I was saying. Whether art should >be considered noble or not is the furthest thing from my mind. >I really don't know how to respond to anything based on simple >bitterness. >If this is really your attitude about art I >suggest you read "The Quest of Iranon" by H.P.Lovecraft. I'll try it if I can find a copy. >By all means, you have a >right to be bitter for whatever reasons but I would suggest that you >speak >for yourself and not artists as a whole. Well, I think I was being bitter about the early aristocrats keeping the best art for themselves, in fact generally being ultra-conservative of their wealth, for as long as they possibly could, at the expense of the workers who produced the capital. In this regard I'm not bitter towards the actual artists themselves, or any other artist before or since, except in the sense that, for me, something of the work the 17th and 18th century composers produced must surely reflect something of the tastes and ethics of the elite audience to which they pandered. I could be wrong, but that's the way I just FEEL about it, although it's been difficult for me to put this feeling into words. People these days are pretty quick to come down hard on the fascist artists of 20s and 30s Germany, pronouncing their idealist pastoral scenes and healthy, fecund, ruddy-cheeked nudes as only pandering to the politically blighted aesthetics of Adolf Hitler, and that their canvases should all be burnt along with Mein Kampf. That's the way people FEEL about these artists who appeared to work happily on, with the blessing of the powers that be, during twenty years of an oppressive domestic regime. I'm simply extending that idea to the way I FEEL about the music produced by classical composers who worked happily on during two hundred years of oppressive domestic regimes, during which you were usually discriminated against, not for being Jewish, or gay, or Tzigane, but simply for being born poor. And I hope that you or I or our children never have to live in such a world again. If we did, I think we would find ourselves feeling sickened at the sight and sound of our 'rulers' enjoying a musical concert whilst proclaiming themselves as being sensitive aesthetes and patrons of the finer things in life. Grasp that and you have the root of the matter. tube ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:02:44 EST From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: "Clouds" is underrated! I saw a pole,in the JMDL where "Clouds" is rated her worst album.and in the biography of Joni,it sais that Joni considers it her artistic nadir.I find this very hard to understand.I think Clouds is excellent."Both Sides now","chelsea morning","I don't know where I stand","I think I understand","Roses Blue"...all great songs.I think "Clouds" is just as good or better then LOTC. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:24:03 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: The buck starts here NJC In a message dated 1/28/00 11:19:54 PM US Central Standard Time, michaelpaz@worldnet.att.net writes: << I have a couple of duets and threesomes planned. >> Michael, I'm really just interested in your music...you can keep the details of your sex life to yourself. :~D Bob NP: Nick Drake, "Way to Blue" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:36:16 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Fiona Apple NJC In a message dated 1/29/00 1:07:25 AM US Central Standard Time, AzeemAK@aol.com writes: << This is the early front-runner for album of the year. If you haven't heard her, listen out for a truly singular talent. >> Thanks for the tip, Azeem. In a leetle bit of synchronicity, I took my son to the barber shop, and was surprised to see a Spin magazine. I read the article on the 20 Top records of '99, and Fiona was #10. I plan on picking it up next payday... I'm also really digging the Flaming Lip's "Soft Bulletin" which was also a '99 record that I'm just now picking up on. Michael Y's lurk mode makes it tough for me to keep up with what's out there on the edge...:~) Michael, why was MeShell's brilliant "Bitter" ignored across the board in everyone's "best of" lists? Bob NP: Doobie Brother's "Jesus Is Just Alright" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:54:08 -0500 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: VG-8 Info NJC - box set request At 07:36 AM 1/29/00 EST, MGVal@aol.com wrote: > >This is very true. When I got the JoniFest box set, Paz's tunes were the >first thing that I went for in lieu of going through the songs in order or >alphabetically or color code. > I have a request that I hope someone will help me with. I've been out of the JMDL loop for a while..... Would someone be so kind as to tell me how to get a copy of the JoniFest box set? I'd really love a copy since I was there to hear all those wonderfully talented JMDLer's! Thanks in advance... Heather ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:59:27 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Soda jerks NJC In a message dated 1/29/00 9:26:38 AM US Central Standard Time, ramnix@pronet.it writes: << Can someone please explain the origins of the phrase to this Englishman? >> Firstly Tube-ster, don't forget your NJC'c...Joni's got nuttin' "jerky" about her! :~) Secondly, I always assumed that the phrase "soda jerk" was based on the fact that all the soda fountains were on tap like in a bar, and the guy had to "jerk" the tap to pour a soda. It's never been a derogatory expression as far as I know... PS: It's good to see you pop back up here, pal. You are a very intelligent writer. Bob NP: Joni, "Dr. Junk The Dentist Man" from Gerdes '67 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:11:21 -0500 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: recreation At 02:22 PM 1/29/00 +0100, Roman wrote: >To answer a number of people who have come back to me on my "art is just >recreation" statement, what Vince says above about "needyness" sort of >sums up the idea I'm trying to get across about art. > >Life would be dull and boring without art, sure, but we could hack it >okay. It's not always healthy to need other people or things that badly >to define our existence. We're a lot tougher than we think we are. > You've said a mouthful here, Tube. Isn't a large part of who we are part of what goes on around us? My family (and some friends) understand my passion for art and science. Does it define my existence? In part it does ...... it fulfills my appreciation for life. Does that make me weak? I think my family would tell you different. They keep saying that I'm the toughest person they know! I don't know about that! ;-) Heather "remember - a heart is not judged by how much you love but by how much you are loved by others" - the wizard from oz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:10:32 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: recreationNJC I think peole do need to create. It is part of being human. So if someone expresses themselves thru music or painting or writing or whatever, it is a need, one that would be painful to live without, because a vital aprt of that person would be missing. And a life lived without is not a complete life. therfore to create must be a need. As for people needing people-we all do. It has become fashionable for certain therapy and 12 step junkies to dismiss being needy as being somehow unhealthy. Nonsense. No man/woman is an island. We all have needs that can only be met by other people. For affection, for love, for physical contact, for sexual contact, for conversation etc. No matter how good a person's self esteem is or their self love, they will still need these things. To believe otherwise is a help to those who for whatever reasons have not been able to sustain a healthy relationship. Also those people who are 'needy' in that they need self esteem and self worth and self love etc need other people to give it to them or show them how. In good relationships, both parties grow thru it, so what may start of as one or both needing the other in order to feel good about themselves changes into people who are whole within themselves but still choose to carry on in the relationship because a real truthful love has developed between them. Often people fall 'in love' with someone and soon fall out of it when the going gets tough. Perhaps that is right. Perhaps they missed out on a great opportunity for growth. The lofty spiritual idea of being detached, having no needs, being just a channel for love is fine-as long as you are not at present a mortal human being with the needs being a human being brings with it! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:16:31 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: The buck starts here NJC In a message dated 1/29/2000 10:27:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: << << I have a couple of duets and threesomes planned. >> Michael, I'm really just interested in your music...you can keep the details of your sex life to yourself. :~D >> you are sooo funny Robert..this make up for the Dylan blast and you may now officially come out of the corner! Catgirl list moderator of the other list.... :o) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:20:14 EST From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: recreationNJC In a message dated 1/29/00 9:12:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: << The lofty spiritual idea of being detached, having no needs, being just a channel for love is fine-as long as you are not at present a mortal human being with the needs being a human being brings with it! >> I think that this is an excellent point, Colin. I've listened at great lengths to one of my close friends go on and on about being detached and codependency. It's an issue that is real enough to blur and confuse the "no person is an island" point that Colin made. My girlfriend worries herself sick about "needing" someone and I find that sad. I believe that one huge reason for us in this life is to love and to fulfill our needs and to constantly reach out; again and again and again. I believe that true spiritual growth is to not be a channel for love as much to recognize that need and keep your heart open for opportunities to love. And to not miss out on those opportunities. MG - Saturday chore procrastination ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:37:32 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: VG8 Sound At 04:37 AM 1/29/00 EST, Fred wrote: > >People keep lauding her lyrics, which is fine, but, c'mon ... where are the > >*tunes*?! > > > >-Fred and then Deb wrote: > I don't want to dismiss or invalidate your opinions, Fred, but is it at all > possible you haven't given the later albums a fair listen? Because to me, > TTT is especially melodic, even though I'm wavering on the VG8. Remember > that "a fair listen" to a Joni CD may constitute more than the average > listens, because the beauty of the songs takes time to emerge. and then Mark writes: I'm with Deb on this one. I understood your point about the melodies, Fred. My quoting from 'Love Puts On a New Face' was more in response to a comment somebody had made about Joni's lyrics not being as good as they used to be. Fred, you have expressed your feelings about Joni's melodies & chords before and since you are a musician and I am not, I have to respect your opinions on this matter. I would respect them even if you weren't a musician but it does lend them a bit more credence. However, I still disagree with you. I think that Joni's early songs, the first 3 albums especially, have melodies that, stylistically, are a perfect match for her lyrical style at that time. That is, they are more complicated & ornamented and, in some cases, just a tad overwrought. I do agree that on some of Joni's songs that have a lot of verses with a lot of words, the melodies did have a tendency to flatten out a bit. To me, Hejira is the worst offender on that score. I feel that she achieved a near perfect union of words & music on 'Court & Spark' with 'Blue' & 'For the Roses' running a close second. The lyrics began to take the spotlight & melody took to the back seat a bit on HOSL & Hejira and to a lesser degree, DJRD. Production began to take center stage with WTRF although it has some gorgeous melodies - 'Ladies Man', 'Moon at the Window', 'Love'. It completely takes the spotlight on DED, overshadowing some of the melodies (but all to good purpose for the overall theme of the record, imo) and then eases off a bit with CMIARS where we have some lovely tunes - 'My Secret Place', 'The Tea Leaf Prophecy', 'Snakes & Ladders', 'The Beat of Black Wings'. Night Ride Home & Turbulent Indigo came back full circle to placing the emphasis on the songs themselves rather than the production & the results were stunning. Not only do these records show incredible growth in her lyrical ability, they also show the same sort of paring down in the melodies and to me it only makes the whole much better than what she did in the 70's. And Taming the Tiger? It's there, Kakki, you're right. I love that record, loved it from the very first listen and played it over & over when I first got it, soaking up every word & note. I also loved the live version of 'Facelift' and I do think the GOMH version of 'Man From Mars' captures something that the TTT version misses. However, Joni was creating an entire cd's worth of music with a distinct sound. An acoustic 'Facelift' or a piano version of 'MFM' would have sounded out of synch with the rest of TTT & compromised its integrity, imo. And to our acoustic guitar fanatics, I respectfully submit that there is so much more to Joni's music than just the guitar. If that's all you're listening for (and I'm not implying that this is what anyone is really doing) then you're missing out on a *lot*. Geez, I've been windy lately! Time for a time out! Mark in Seattle ps: I also agree with Deb's comment about the relative familiarity of the early stuff as opposed to, say Joni's last 3 albums. Some of us have lived with those early records for about 30 years. Of course they're familiar and like old friends to us. Joni's always been progressive with her music and sometimes it's hard to get into her latest innovations. Give these records another 20 years, Fred! Then you'll have those melodies firmly locked in your brain cells! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:43:02 EST From: SMC1254@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #56 What are the Hissing Demo's? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:01:10 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: VG-8 Info In a message dated 1/28/00 11:31:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, michaelpaz@worldnet.att.net writes: << My thought are, this is the way she wants it to sound right now and when she decides to change it she does. >> i've been thinking this same thing. one question i have. when you play through alternate tuning patches, are the multiple sound options limited? in other words, are there more sound features available in standard tuning patches? if the answere is no, then i would think Joni likes her ttt sound, and to a degree, much of the ti sound as well. i think it sounds sort of like a pipe organ. i like it, but what i think i missed the most on ttt was the mixture of sounds. harlem was the best for that. after that, it seems monochrome to me..verses say...hejira or c&s. (harlem also reminds me of cotton avenue)pat ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:03:05 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: NJC Fiona Apple NJC SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Thanks for the tip, Azeem. In a leetle bit of synchronicity, I took my son to > the barber shop, and was surprised to see a Spin magazine. I read the article > on the 20 Top records of '99, and Fiona was #10. I plan on picking it up next > payday... I'll do them one better..."Pawn" was the BEST record of '99... absolutely brilliant. RR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:07:44 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Trouble With The Tiger (was Re: BSN) In a message dated 1/29/2000 4:27:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << For those who have heard DJRD for the first time in recent years, try going back and listening to the popular music of the late 70s and then play DJRD and you may get some idea of just how out there it was at the time. However, 20 some years later I put it second to FTR for it's brilliance and beauty. That's why I need to wait awhile before I will really feel ready to assess it in comparison to the rest of her work. Kakki >> Wow Kakki, Great post. I found myself shaking my head in agreement the whole time. When DJRD came out I was 15. I had a hard time listening to the whole double lp. When the 10th world came on came on I turned it off. I loved side 4. That was the only side I listened to for years. Now I love all of it but still am working on the 10th World. I need to let the primative part of me let go and wrap myself around that tune! DJRD is in my top five..so things are always changing. Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:34:39 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: synth , VG-8, recording questions CarltonCT@aol.com wrote: > > Hey Michael and other guitarists - > So, what should a fledgling guitarist buy? > What's a good, reasonably priced electric guitar? Are some of them more suited to using with a VG-8 or a synthesizer? I have had the Roland G-1 guitar synth for several years, and I almost never use it. I have been recording alot, and have not once used it on one of my songs. The reason? Well, whenI was playing with it in the showroom it could do so much, but it seems like using it with other instruments, it just ends up sounding cheesy, and, well, fake, like a $69 Casio organ. I have not hooked it up as a controller for my other (sample-based) synth keyboard. So, while I would love to get my hands on a VG-8, I'm kinda gun-shy at this point, and get more satisfaction musically from using an electric guitar and altering/torturing the sound to suit my purposes. Your question about a guitar suited for synth...Make sure the neck has no buzzes in it because these trick the pickup into false triggering. This is harder than it sounds because most electrics have a little fret buzz, which is not usually a problem, and is an acceptable compromise when going for a real low action. Guitar synths require a 'hex pickup', which is really six separate pickups, one for each string, and allows you to assign a different sound to each string! Your D string could be a sax, your A a bass, etc.. You can install a hex pickup on any solid body guitar-I put one on a Les Paul (don't worry, it's not vintage). Fender makes the "Roland-ready" model stratocaster with the hex pickup built in. If I were looking for a setup, I would look into one of those. You can get them for under $500 from Musicians Friend. Since I don't have experience with the VG-8, I don't know whether it uses the same hex pickup, or whether it does the same things as the Roland type synths. > What's a good, reasonably priced portable amp? For electric guitar I would look for a used one. A little Fender, Crate. It totally depends on what you're doing with it. Do you play blues-you need a nice creamy-smooth distortion; grunge? something you can make sound nasty; jazz, you want something with clarity, etc, etc...Also, if you are using a synth, remember that it is reproducing sounds with full bandwidth, and a regular guitar amp/speaker is only designed to produce frequencies up to say, below 10k. You would need something like a keyboard amp (not cheap), or you could just plug it into the mixing board of the PA. Also synths have stereo output (but of course you can run them mono, too). RR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:03:24 EST From: SMEBD@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #56 In a message dated 01/29/2000 12:53:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, SMC1254@aol.com writes: << What are the Hissing Demo's? >> The "Hissing Demo's" are the demo tapes that Joni made of the songs that eventually were put on the album HOSL (and Dreamland which ended up on DJRD). Most of the songs are done acoustically on guitar or piano--the songs are "bared down" versions of the final products. They are insightful to hear, in that it lets one get a glimpse of Joni's creative mind/process. If you are interested in getting a copy, E-mail me privately, and I'll be glad to work out either a "trade" or an "exchange" of blank and postage. Stephen Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:29:10 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Walk down Memory Lane in search of Michaels heart Newsmax: Dateline San Francisco: Here in the City by the Bay we have determined that Michaels heart has taken refuge in the hottest Cajun restaraunt in North Beach. Police have cordoned off the street keeping masssive supportive crowds at bay. As you can see helicopters circling overhead are preventing its escape to a neighboring salsa bar and garlic specialty house. Michaels heart has, through an interpreter, indicated it would not be willing to come out until it received and consumed its fourth martini and rack of shrimp. Meanwhile the heart has been entertaining the hostages with songs played on a VG-8. More news on this developing story ay 11. This is Marcel Deste reporting for CNN. back to you Bob. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:59:46 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: BSN - the song I was listening to a tape of Joni singing "Both Sides Now" from her '98 tour. (thanks to Bobby M.) It was from her concert in Atlanta which was the final stop on the tour (and her birthday). She ended her set with BSN which I think was the only time she sang it on the tour. I imagine the way in which she sang "BSN" will be similar to how it will be done on the upcoming release (sans orchestra). If this is the case, we will be in for a fantastic treat. She slows "BSN" down quite a bit, and with her voice being lower and more expressive, it takes on an even more of a romantic style. I just can't wait to hear it with the orchestra added. In fact I might be able to listen to this song by some lounge singer at the next wedding I attend if they perform it in this new manner. Signing off in 3 more hours, Will miss you folks ! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:16:50 -0000 From: "Matthew Hall" Subject: Re: cliqueish? Why does no one ever respond to my posts? I have introduced myself before, but despite your obvious love for Joni, I find this mailing list somewhat 'clique-ish' Matthew ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:38:31 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Soda jerks NJC SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > I always assumed that the phrase "soda jerk" was based on the fact > that all the soda fountains were on tap like in a bar, and the guy had to > "jerk" the tap to pour a soda. It's never been a derogatory expression as far > as I know... > Yeppers. The flavors are pumped into a glass and then the glass at an angle is placed touching the carbonated water tap and then the top of the tap is jerked forward. The trick is to know exactly how long that jerk should be, to get enough water for mixing without overflowing or underfilling. The better that one can handle/control the jerk on the tap the more flamboyant one could be. In making a soda (ice cream, flavor, carbonated water topped with whipped creme) one has to be careful not to jerk the water stream onto the ice cream but run it down the side of the glass under the ice cream. "Soda jerk" never was a derogatory expression although the jokes were always stale. There are very few soda fountains left in this country, alas. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:38:05 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: VG8 Sound In a message dated 1/29/00 11:40:26 AM US Central Standard Time, mark.travis@gte.net writes: << Give these records another 20 years, Fred! Then you'll have those melodies firmly locked in your brain cells! >> While this is true, the litmus test of melody in my mind is whether or not I can sing the song without hearing the music, and upon singing it accapella, listen to the melodic lines I'm singing and judge the melody on that. In so doing, I can testify that TTT is extremely melodic to my ear, with the exception of "No Apologies" and "Lead Balloon" which have pretty banal melodies. But, keep in mind, Joni was not out to write melodies here, but rather to create musical texture. I would agree that Hejira is not a strong *melody* album, but that fact does not detract from it in any way! I think the familiarity thing also comes into play. I think we instantly expect to love the new ones the same way we love our old, old friends, and that just doesn't happen. I can honestly say that I like TTT more now that I've savored it for a year and a half! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:40:32 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Trouble With The 10th World In a message dated 1/29/00 1:13:47 PM US Central Standard Time, CaTGirl627@aol.com writes: << Now I love all of it but still am working on the 10th World. >> 10th World either needs to be halved in length, or needs some additional color added to it. Boring, the old man is snoring... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:59:07 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: Lyrics and Music (was Re: VG8 Sound) Fred wrote: > Many cite the maturation of Joni's lyrics through the years, away from > the more frilly beginnings, and I can see that growth. However, even > with her frilliest lyric, the music was deeply mature and profound [snip] Mark later wrote: > I think that Joni's early songs, the first 3 albums especially, have > melodies that, stylistically, are a perfect match for her lyrical > style at that time. That is, they are more complicated & ornamented > and, in some cases, just a tad overwrought. I completely agree, Mark. I think her musical development has mirrored her lyrical development from the very beginning -- that's part of what makes her the artist she is to me. I think her early melodies and chords are beautiful but somewhat contrived ("frilly"), without the natural flow (musical *and* lyrical) she would achieve later. To me, one of the distinctive musical habits that clearly reflects the frilly lyrics of her early (first two or three) albums is her downward chromatic parallel chord progressions (I'm not sure if this description is clear, but you can see what I mean on the guitar transcriptions on jmdl.com, where the chord shapes go 888888-777777-666666 and such) -- for example, on Marcie, Michael From Mountains, Morning Morgantown (maybe it's an "M" thing?), and -- the worst offender! -- Songs to Aging Children Come. These chord progressions grate on my nerves. I think that they, like some of the lyrics they accompany, are stilted and kind of laboriously "fanciful." I think this is something she stripped from her musical writing style just like she has described stripping the frills and ornaments from her lyric writing and her album cover art. Also, I have never thought the major/minor shifts in the melody worked on Fiddle and the Drum. This is all a matter of personal taste, of course. This is not to say that I don't think there is some brilliant music that I love on the early albums. I Had A King and The Dawntreader, for instance. - --David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:17:47 EST From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: cliqueish? In a message dated 1/29/2000 3:15:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, jim50@hall7068.freeserve.co.uk writes: << Why does no one ever respond to my posts? I have introduced myself before, but despite your obvious love for Joni, I find this mailing list somewhat 'clique-ish' >> Welcome, Matthew! I'm sorry- I didn't see you introduce yourself. Sometimes I have to skip over mail because of the heavy volume. How did you come to love Joni? For some of us, she's been with us most of our lives. For others, she's a new flame. Tell us about yourself. Terry ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #57 **************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?