From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #55 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Friday, January 28 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 055 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: the chosen fewNJC [catman ] Re: "Singer's Songs" -- why Joan will be just fine [Susan McNamara ] FW: the chosen few(NJC) ["Ross, Les" ] Re: Trouble with The Tiger [catman ] Re: the chosen few (md) [MDESTE1@aol.com] RE: broad brush NJC [Louis Lynch ] Re: Trouble with The Tiger [Susan McNamara ] Re: Trouble with The Tiger (NJC) [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: NO SMOKING ... SC ... NJC [Bounced Message ] Prince, diFranco and Joni (SJC) [Bounced Message ] Re: broad brush NJC [Martin Giles ] Trippy music (Absolutely NJC) [Martin Giles ] NJC: Gordon Lightfoot [Chilihead2@aol.com] she moves in mysterious ways [jan gyn ] Re: the chosen few [dsk ] Re: BSN comments (NJC) ["Alan Lorimer" ] Get TIME MAGAZINE for possible Joni Review [mann@chicagonet.net] Re: Trippy music (Absolutely NJC) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] another coat of gesso NJC [Roman ] MBL NJC [Roman ] BSN Comments take 2 (NJC) ["Alan Lorimer" ] RE: broad brush NJC [David Wright ] Re: broad brush NJC [Siresorrow@aol.com] NJC: In defense of Tube [Chilihead2@aol.com] All this art talk ... (NJC) [Don Rowe ] Re: Trippy music (Absolutely NJC) [Scott and Jody ] re: Lady In Satin (NJC) [Bounced Message ] Re: Trouble with The Tiger ["Alan Lorimer" ] Re: most depressing song NJC [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Cost of Housing - NJC [AzeemAK@aol.com] NEW TO DIGEST [dave fairall / beth miller ] Re: the chosen few(NJC) [waytoblu@mindspring.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:18:07 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: the chosen fewNJC > > > I think you're probably making the common mistake that there's something > noble about art - There isn't. It's just recreation. It can communicate > an idea, embellish and add relief to the drudgery or functionality of an > everyday object or service, or, like wine, gladden the heart of man for > a season. Art is a blessing, not a right. We've been provided with > enough beauty in nature without really NEEDING to create anymore. Whilst I sort of agree with you( I think a lot of people are far too up themselves when it comes to art and take it far too seriously and some make it obscene by paying millions for a painting or even earning millions for a song), I do think art, especially music, is extrememly important. It ADDS beauty to our lives and also gives people an outlet for their spirit.creation is a good thing if it adds to life and doesn't take away. But people have to relaise that not all creations will enrich all people. A person not appreciating a piece of work does not mean there is anyhting wrong with the person. Just that thay have a different mind. > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:21:24 -0500 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: "Singer's Songs" -- why Joan will be just fine >Actually, for me Joni has *always* used her voice as an instrument right from >the beginning, both figuratively and literally, as in her exquisite, >spine-tingling, soul-shivering "flute" solo on I Don't Know Where I Stand. > >-Fred Yes, of course you are right. I was thinking of her jazz stuff as pushups for the standards album. I also get chills from her angelic choir on Rainy Night House. ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:35:18 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: NO SMOKING ... SC ... NJC Vince and all, Thank you all for your supportive words about my nonsmoking efforts. As soon as this swirling miasma of human destruction, despair and decay passes, I'm sure things will return to just plain miserable. I've found that the nicotine patches really work -- they reduce homicidal urges by at least 60%. But it's so hard to keep the damned things lit! Withdrawingly, Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:08:27 -0000 From: "Ross, Les" Subject: FW: the chosen few(NJC) I'm coming to this string a little late but I have to take considerable exception to Roman's observation / comment. I further think that something in his text actually exposes its flaw. Apart from not understanding the remark "Art is a blessing, not a right", I mean yes, art is a blessing and no it is not a 'right', whatever the intention of the word 'right' is in this context. My view is this, as products of nature we are invested with a creativity which is manifest in the ways of which we are all aware, Music, Art, Literature etc. Therefore our creativity is by extension 'natural' and as appreciable as 'nature' as Roman defines it. It is certainly not somehow inferior to 'nature'. To paraphrase Catman, the ability to appreciate the product of this creativity is in the gift of the beholder and is not subject, in my view, to the 'assessment' of others. And no I am not just talking about the act of creativity but the product of creativity. Looking at Roman's text again, I am still confounded that it is a view to be adopted. Still, maybe now I'm being unreasonable. Les (London) >From: catman >Sent: 28 January 2000 16:18 >To: Roman >Subject: Re: the chosen fewNJC > > > I think you're probably making the common mistake that there's something > noble about art - There isn't. It's just recreation. It can communicate > an idea, embellish and add relief to the drudgery or functionality of an > everyday object or service, or, like wine, gladden the heart of man for > a season. Art is a blessing, not a right. We've been provided with > enough beauty in nature without really NEEDING to create anymore. >Whilst I sort of agree with you( I think a lot of people are far too up themselves when it comes to art and take it far too >seriously and some make it obscene by paying millions for a painting or even earning millions for a song), I do think art, >especially music, is extrememly important. It ADDS beauty to our lives and also gives people an outlet for their >spirit.creation is a good thing if it adds to life and doesn't take away. But people have to relaise that not all creations >will enrich all people. A person not appreciating a piece of work does not mean there is anyhting wrong with the person. Just >that thay have a different mind. > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:38:34 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Trouble with The Tiger > > > I can't help but think that Joni's experimentation with the VG-8 produced a > different dynamic in the production of these songs. Is this VG8 thing why TTT sounds so odd and all the tracks sound similar? I listened to TTT this afternoon and I noticed this for the first time-that they all sound similar. The tracks also sound as if they are echoing(NO it is not my hifi). There is also this twanging sound going thru most tracks.What is a VG8? A synth of some sort? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:14:51 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: the chosen few (md) In a message dated 1/28/2000 4:42:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, ramnix@pronet.it writes: << I think you're probably making the common mistake that there's something noble about art - There isn't. It's just recreation. >> This statement HAS to be a designed simply to get everyone raging in debate. But it cant be serious. I direct ol' tube to the Sistene Chapel in the city he lives in and knowing the history of just that one room and the history of the works therein defy him to consider what created all that art to be "just recreation". Cave paintings by ancient humans were everything from religion to magic to a desire to acquire immortality. Recreation???? I could go on for days expanding on that one idea but suffice it to say that the premise for the above statement is the equivalent of the King in 'Amadeus' stating to Mozart that the only thing wrong with his spectacular works just heard was that "they had too many notes". This does explain one thing and that is the answer to the question "How can some bands be absolutely horrible and still maker records"> The answer is that "There are some people out there whjo like their music" Now we know who that might be. And for what reason. Its all just recreation so what difference does it make. cheers marcel. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:21:05 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: broad brush NJC Oh, Roman, this could get ugly. But it won't. Because, I about half agree with you, too. I was just standing up for peasant music. It has something to do with my being a mere peasant, I'm sure. Except I must argue with your one comment, >Yeah but you don't see Joni sucking up to classical patrons or >government arts grants to fund her in the production of minority >appeal music. She doesn't need to because her work is cheaply >mass distributed to us proles. Sorry, but at $35 for the boxed BSN set, Joni's work is NOT cheaply distributed. That amount would feed some families for a month, you know. We have to realize that technology has changed things tremendously. No, Joni did not get grants to finance her music. The commercial music business allowed her to succeed without patronage. But, back then, with her gift, she could have been the darling soprano of the court crowd. You are right, some of the finest music was reserved for the rich then, because resources were limited. And the peasants had to be satisfied with all that lousy Irish folk music. However, I love Beethoven. He's my absolute favorite composer. And he rocked. Like Joni Mitchell, he stood all the conventions on their ears. And he didn't have a lot of expensive patronage like some others -- in fact, he was a rebel, a fiery genius who spit in the face of convention and propriety. He made it because he was undisputably a great talent, and a master at the piano. In fact, he enraged patrons and was thrown out of some of the best houses because of his annoying habit of splitting pianos in half. Before the soundboards were metal-reinforced, pianos were delicate and fairly light. Ludwig would play the piano with such force, the soundboard would break in half. And, as far as I am concerned, he is the first real master of improvisation. So back off Beethoven, buster, or you'll have to face the judgment of the moon and stars. Yes, Roman, I do play harp, but only for the RIGHT people. Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:45:03 -0500 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Trouble with The Tiger The Roland VG-8 is a synthesizer that allows Joni to store all her tunings on a hard drive so the strings of her guitar are always tuned the same but by programming the synthesizer she can make it sound like it's in one of her 60 odd tunings (this saves her a lot of time by not having to re-tune all the time). Another feature of the VG-8 is there are different "colors" or sound textures that can be programmed. For example, the Harlem in Havana "color" is called Crystal. There is also a "color" called Acoustic Guitar but no matter how you program the VG-8 it will always have an electronic sound to it. Are there any VG-8 players out there who would like to elaborate? I've never had the privilege of playing one. Sue At 5:38 PM +0000 1/28/00, catman wrote: >> >> >> I can't help but think that Joni's experimentation with the VG-8 produced a >> different dynamic in the production of these songs. > >Is this VG8 thing why TTT sounds so odd and all the tracks sound similar? I >listened to TTT this afternoon and I noticed this for the first time-that they >all sound similar. The tracks also sound as if they are echoing(NO it is >not my >hifi). There is also this twanging sound going thru most tracks.What is a >VG8? A >synth of some sort? ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:28:13 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Trouble with The Tiger (NJC) Colin asks: << What is a VG8? >> It's a popular vegetable juice made by Campbell's soup. "I should of had a VG8" as Emily Latilla used to say "never mind" Jimmy (sorry Sue, I couldn't resist) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:29:49 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: NO SMOKING ... SC ... NJC Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:01:30 -0600 From: Scott and Jody Hi Harper Lou! > I've found that the nicotine patches really work -- they reduce homicidal > urges by at least 60%. > > But it's so hard to keep the damned things lit! > > LOL! I was just about to write you when you posted. DON'T even think about having a smoke right now!! I quit for 2 mos. and right around Christmas thought , "I'll just have one". Unlike Pat, that first one didn't taste like shit, nor did the second or third. Probably, my taste buds were shot from so many years of smoking, that I couldn't distinguish between good or bad. At any rate, Don't Do It, it's sooo much harder the second time around. Now I have to look forward to all that pain and misery all over again :~( Pat wrote: and by the way Pat - Congratulations to you! > so there comes a time where you are quite miserable because you can't really > go back because you have gone to far, but you can't relieve the itch because > you have not gone far enough. and that is where you are. > I did go back and could kick myself! The cravings will become less and less with each day and you'll find the intensity will decrease as well. You just don't want to go back to square one again - Believe me!! It'll be interesting to see if my marriage can withstand round two ;~D When did you quit? Just take deep breaths when you get the urge and think about the tobacco companies - that always worked as a temporary fix for me. Of course it also helps to have friends that are supportive! You are probably thinking, well this is great advice from someone who went back to smoking. Everyone is different and perhaps I'm just weaker and more self- indulgent than you and Pat. Keep thinking that someday you'll be free! jody ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:09:51 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Prince, diFranco and Joni (SJC) From: "intagliata.m" Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:47:44 -0300 I read the following recently on the Village Voice site (http://www.villagevoice.com). It was part of a review of both Prince's and Ani diFranco's new albums. The reviewer was talking about the similarities between both musicians, and then he/she wrote: "Of course the former "slave" of contractual hoo-ha respects the undisputed poster girl (with no poster) for indie labeldom. But it's deeper than that. They also share both a sense of ultraperfectionism and a self-defeatingly-vs.-self-perpetuatingly prolific recording history. Oh, and they both dig Joni Mitchell. Ani obviously idolizes her, and the Artist at one point wrote a song for her, which she declined; he settled on namechecking her in "Ballad of Dorothy Parker" and covering "A Case of You" instead. True story. Now he offers an acoustic-ish nod to Ms. Mitchell on a way-too-short Rave number entitled "Tangerine," a sonic expression of color that's reminiscent of Joni's "Blue." " I thought it might interest some of you. If it doesn't at all, I apologize. If anyone would like to read the whole article it's called THE ARTISTS FORMERLY KNOWN AS EACH OTHER (ALMOST). Mariana in Argentina ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:17:53 +0000 From: Martin Giles Subject: Re: broad brush NJC I was thinking about what Fred was saying a couple of day ago, when he demolished all the output of the famous composers from three centuries. I think that a lot of these composers, while accepting the money given to them by their rich benefactors, were then just getting on and writing the music that they wanted to write. One of my favourite classical pieces is JS Bach's 'Musikalisches Opfer' and the story goes that he had been summmoned to the court of whoever it was on the local throne at the time, (pardon my weak grasp of history). On arrival, the king, who was an amateur composer himself, gave Bach a simple theme of his own devising, and commanded him to improvise variations of it. Bach's response was to perform the most wonderful series of canons and fugues, playing annything up to six parts at once. (So the story goes). Whereapon the king told him to go and write down everything that he improvised to formalise and record it for posterity. Now, I know Bach was a genuis, but I can't imagine even he could have remembered note for note what he had played, and he probably went home and wrote (still using the 'royal' theme) something to please himself. Certainly the 'ricercar' from the suite of peices is one of the most gorgeous bits of music that I have ever heard. If he was pleasing royalty at the time, he's pleasing this pleb now! atb, Martin. Just outside London. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:45:28 +0000 From: Martin Giles Subject: Trippy music (Absolutely NJC) Thanks for your post Steve. The idea of the penny whistle making the zither ring in sympathy really sounds great to me. More and more, as I get long in the tooth, it's the unusual that appeals to me. There is SO MUCH music out there that I would never be able to find on the radio (not in dear old blighty anyway), and it really deserves to be heard. Steve Dulson said.. > One of the features of the annual Folk Alliance conferences are > the late night showcases, which kick off about 11 pm, after the > official FA activities are over. Last year, in Albuquerque, it > was about 1:45 am Sunday, and I wanted to catch one more showcase > before going to bed. We were leaving for Santa Fe in the morning. > I went to a room where Bob Franke (a great s/ser and human being) > was playing and he knocked my socks off with a set of his killingly > insightful songs. > > As I sat, recovering, Andrew Cronshaw, an English musician, came in > and started to set up. Looks intriguing, I thought, guess I can > stay up for a few more minutes. Well. This guy played 30 minutes > of Finnish wedding music, on amplified zither, that was the most > haunting thing I've ever heard. At one point he picked up a > pennywhistle, and played it, with the zither on his lab. The > strings of the zither began vibrating in harmony with the notes > he was playing. It was incredible. Bob came over and sat next to > me, and at one point we just turned and looked at each other, > awestruck. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:29:13 EST From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: NJC: Gordon Lightfoot Hi, I am sure there are more than two Gordon Lightfoot fans on this list (besides Heather and me). Here is the url to his upcoming 2000 tour http://www3.pei.sympatico.ca/wfrancis/lightfoot/2000.htm - -Chili ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:33:51 -0800 From: jan gyn Subject: she moves in mysterious ways On one of the X file lists people're rewriting JM songs with X File content ("raised on conspiracy'", "Help Me (scully's falling)", etc.. Man do people have free time or what... - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:05:22 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: the chosen few Tube in Rome wrote: > I'm an artist too, and whenever I sell a piece of work, I know that > there's now plenty of rich suckers out there who can afford to buy the > kind of crap I produce. I'm glad to be able to milk back a bit of wealth > from the pompous assholes. When I score a sale off a richman, it's more > than just a sale, it's a blow struck for the common man - I'm getting > something back that his ancestors stole from the peasants hundreds of > years ago. If I can do it with art, so much the better, 'cos producing > art ain't like REAL work now, is it! So your work as an artist is all about "getting over" on someone? With this hostile, derisive attitude I'm surprised you sell anything, since transactions are often quite personal. I can't take this post seriously enough to respond to the specifics, although I appreciate the interesting and more-patient-than-I-am responses so far. I go between getting annoyed and almost laughing out loud at the pseudo-Marxist ranting. It all boils down to "life is unfair." Well, always has been, always will be, there's no new news in stating that. Now if some of this anger gets into your art, well, that would be interesting since it would be more honestly you than the "crap" you say you're making now. Until then, it's all just surface stuff. All in my opinion, of course. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 07:42:42 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: BSN comments (NJC) Catman, I've actually done you with a grave misservice with these comments. They were not meant to be a direct attack on you personally, but they do accurately represent what often goes on. A good example of this is your comment, which you repeated many times that "I don't think Joni will be able to sing these songs" Despite repeating this quote many times, people were convinced that you were saying that Joni couldn't sing any more or even that you actually said outright that she couldn't sing! Even when people read your words correctly, they still read a completely different meaning to that intended! Sorry for pissing you off, that certainly wasn't the intention of my post. Neither was it to stiffle what has been an interesting thread on BSN. Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Van Diemens Land ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:57:30 -0600 From: mann@chicagonet.net Subject: Get TIME MAGAZINE for possible Joni Review TIME magazine may have a review of Joni's new release in February. Didn't TTT even have an ad in TIME when it first came out? I believe it did. If you like to collect printed articles now's a good time to do this offer. Get 4 Free Trial Issues of TIME magazine. If you like it you can get 26 more issues (for a total of 30) at 99 cents a week. If not, just return your bill marked "cancel" and keep the 4 issues FREE without paying a cent! Call toll-free for 4 FREE trial issue of TIME 1-800-442-6566 **Seen in PEOPLE magazine February 7, 2000 issue** Just remember to return your bill marked 'CANCEL' after you receive the 4 free issues if you do not want to pay anything. Can I sneak in another duffle bag sweeps here? Win another duffle bag in round two of the Pennzoil sweeps. If you're interested........do this fast before they run out. Call toll-free: 1-800-566-1600 Stock Number is: 3653 You'll need to give our your name, address, phone & age. Question 1 #2 Question 2 #4 Question 3 #4 This is a Pennzoil Sweepstakes. You will be registering to win a trip to the NCAA final four. Answer the trivia questions correctly and you INSTANTLY win a DUFFLE BAG, t-shirt & a pin. Read all the rules here: http://www.pennzoil.com/prdsmktg/products/offers/ncaahalf_promo.htm 24 trips will be given away. Laura ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:04:41 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Trippy music (Absolutely NJC) Martin said: <> One of the things I like about Tom Waits' music, besdies his lyrical genius, is the fact that he actively seeks out obsolete instruments and incorporates them into his music...I'll be listening to his stuff and wondering "what is making THAT sound?" and find out he's playing a harmonium or some other unique music-making tool... Bob NP: A Case of You (Blue) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:33:01 +0100 From: Roman Subject: another coat of gesso NJC Alan Lorimer wrote: >One of the main problems is just communication itself. It's actually >quite >hard to accurately represent ideas in your head with written words. Yes this is something I think about a lot. emailing can get real frosty - - When I'm putting together a big idea I've just had, it comes out like a diatribe, when what I'd have really preferred was to hammer it out point by point over a few beers down at the bar with y'all. I'm not good at conversation, and I can think clearer when just left on my own to write, but I know it comes out likes it's carved in stone, and that's not always a good thing. These email forums are fantastic, and, as I wrote to Wally the other day, the net is bringing down barriers of misunderstanding all over the world - people who would never meet or perhaps never even wish to meet are now meeting on the net to discuss common passions. But it's still no substitute for face-to-face rapping - Just the fact that you can't hear the inflection and phrasing in someone's voice is one major obstacle to a more perfect understanding. So, Terry, (who wrote): >You are kidding, right? I am sickened by what you wrote. >Why would you produce art that you consider to be crap? If I produced a piece >that I hated, believe me..I would shelf it in a minute. No way would I offer >it for anyone to purchase. My art is a reflection of ME. And if comes out >like shit, then another coat of gesso goes right over that sucker. My work is crap because it is. If I could do it better I would. I suppose it's getting better with practice. I don't agonize too much over how it might reflect on me though. Interestingly though, I find that in the past, I've given away more of my creations than sold them. Every time I painted or produced something for someone as a gift, people would say "hey that's terrific - you should do more of those and sell them". But you know you can't duplicate something that you put your heart into as a gift for someone. So it's only the crap stuff that I actually sell. I don't mind parting with the crap see? The good stuff usually only gets produced when I have a recipient in mind, someone special who's gonna wind up receiving it as a gift. But you sound as if you have more confidence in your own work than I do in mine. That's nice. >Second, it really really disturbs me to see people "punish" others for the >sins of their grandfathers and greatgrandfathers. Hey, they don't feel punished - At my low, low prices (I have a special on this week) they think they're getting a bargain. And they probably are. I'm not a very savvy businessman. Any soda-jerk could walk all over me. >Thirdly, though this list is the most openminded one I've ever been on, there >is still one last prejudice that seems perfectly ok to accept: prejudice >against people with money. >When I'm not at work, I spend many many hours working with non-profit orgs, for no pay, helping people who >are in need, hoping this will also teach my children that life isn't about taking taking taking. >It makes me uneasy to realize how many people hate me for my good fortune. I've just left a blank space there for you to ruminate over what you've just said. I've responded privately to the rest, to keep the list a bit cleaner of my NJC - this is dragging on now, but mail me privately if anyone wants to chat some more on this. >You found a jazz bagpipe player? >Oh, please, do tell! I didn't think they existed! Here in Italy, there's a bloke called 'Herve' who's just (literally) blown onto the scene. I'm out of touch of course so maybe he's already known well in England or the States. Anyway, he's got an album out that's been massive here this Christmas - he plays bagpipes with a kind of gaelic/flamenco fusion sound. The track that gets most of the airplay sounds like it's got a Kate Bush sample running underneath it all somewhere, something like 'Cloudbusting'. Anyway, it's not bad, but it's wickedly commercial and pretty gimmicky really. Enya fans might like it. But the man's certainly a serious piper - definitely worth a spin if y'leek the peeps leddie tube. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:33:03 +0100 From: Roman Subject: MBL NJC BTW Did anybody see 'My Beautiful Launderette'? tube ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:21:47 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: BSN Comments take 2 (NJC) As my post was intended to be more of a commentary of how people had been interpreting Catman's comments, not the other way around. I've rewritten it by just removing the personal references. To me it would be pretty boring if everyone did have the same opinion on things. Not many people seem brave enough to put forward views that are contrary to main stream thinking here, but when someone does it actually gets people really thinking. One of the main problems is just communication itself. It's actually quite hard to accurately represent ideas in your head with written words. Harder still to derive someone's meaning from their written words, especially when people anticipate in advance what they think you are saying! The problems arise when we start arguing. People only listen (or read) what the other person has to say to give yourself ammunition for their own barrages! Another thing to remember is that getting along together is not natural, it's something we've all got to learn. We've got a whole group of different people here, it's hard enough for two people to get along together. I live by myself, and I often piss myself off! Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Van Diemans Land ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:52:33 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: RE: broad brush NJC Hello all, This is long but just some scattered thoughts (I'm in a bit of a hurry today) about the subject. I'm going to leap to Tube's defense, somewhat. I think it is necessary to realize that Beethoven's music (and other composers from that era) was produced directly by the aristocratic system. Their music assumes knowledge of classical music theory, which was a part of the aristocratic education of the time (more so than it is today) -- they were literally written for an audience with that knowledge. This does not mean you need to know anything about music theory to appreciate Beethoven just as fully (if perhaps differently) than someone who does know about it, and of course we should be glad that Beethoven's music is finally accessible to many classes of people where it was not before -- not because they particularly need to know about it, as far as I'm concerned, but because they have the right to have the same opportunities to know about it as Beethoven's patrons did. But it *is* inseparable, in my opinion, from the music itself. The romantic "noble suffering lonely artist" archetype (the Beethoven/Van Gogh type), stated in classic form in "Judgment of the Moon and Stars," is also directly left over from this aristocratic patronage system. Harper Lou wrote: > You completely overlook the fact that the poor people played music, too. > It was called folk music, and it was everywhere. Never in history was > music reserved for a certain class of people. [snip] Tube was addressing a specific type of music, classical music, which he argues *was* reserved for a certain class of people. But I agree it is important not to confuse the terms "classical music" and "music." > And never in history did the ruling classes try to monopolize music. This is completely not true, and this (in my opinion) goes right to the heart of Tube's argument. They did and do try. They never succeed, of course. The classical music establishment has always taken a condescending, elitist view of traditional, folk, and popular musics. And they try to stamp it out, or else remake it (i.e., "improve" it) so it conforms to their classical music standards (which of course have nothing to do with the music they're remaking) -- they try to turn it into classical music. For an example of this process, check out "early music" recordings (e.g., Boston Camerata) of traditional music like shape-note tunes and Shaker hymns. As a student at the Oberlin Conservatory, too, I have some first-hand experience of how the institution views any *real* attempt to engage with folk/traditional music (despite all the lip service they pay to Copland, Beethoven, et al. ripping off folk tunes). Voice majors in the conservatory are *NOT ALLOWED* to sing in the Oberlin Slavic Folk Choir, nor in the Sacred Harp (shape-note) singing group (the idea, I suppose, being that the different types of singing required are "harmful to the voice"). At least one older professor here believes that jazz is not music (direct quote!). It happens in other ways, too, because of the larger oppression of cultures of which these folk/traditional musics are a part. How social institutions like the churches tried (not totally successfully, of course, but we'll never know the extent of their success) to stamp out the singing of the Child ballads and other secular tunes. How cultural assimilation programs of the British colonial government tried until relatively recently to kill off the Welsh, Irish, and Scottish Gaelic languages. (This happens everywhere with indigenous and minority cultures: France forbade the use of Breton, Spain of Basque, Norway of Sami, etc., usually not totally successfully, but still with noticeable impact.) That's going to radically alter the music of those cultures, because folk song and the language that it's in are so often inseparable, inextricable. And how drumming was forbidden among black slaves in America during that era because of the association of the drum with African traditional cultures. Of course, folk/traditional music is constantly dealing with these obstacles, surviving in spite of them or else being reborn in new forms. > Those "Gyspy Dances" from Beethoven are authentic, you know. WHAT??????? In what sense??? And might we ask if Beethoven's aristocratic patrons, admiring the "authenticity" of his "Gypsy" dances, would have extended their appreciation to having an actual Gypsy play them? I doubt it! I personally believe there's a specific process that happens to musical meaning when traditional tunes (or other forms of classical music, such Indian ragas, for that matter) are appropriated and put into a western art music context. Basically (very briefly) I think the classical establishment thinks they get a kind of "street cred" from this, but it's also an active attempt to kill the meaning that those tunes have in a traditional context. The classical music establishment pays lip service to traditional music by pointing out how various composers stole folk tunes to put in an orchestral context while, in my opinion, misstating or discounting the depth of its importance to those *very* few classical composers (Bartok, for one) who had a real knowledge of folk and traditional music. (In my opinion, Bartok would have been much more forthright about the relationship of his music to the traditional music he studied than would many of those who praise him for studying traditional music.) > So, forget about proletarian political theory and listen to some Beethoven. > Just listen. It's full of emotion, and life, and energy -- that's what > music is all about, and always has been about. OK, and if I added, "Forget about political theory and go listen to field recordings of Gaelic psalm singing from the Isle of Lewis, it's full of emotion, life and energy" (which it certainly is), would that make my point somewhat clearer? It's basically the same thing, but don't those two statements read in different ways? If somebody said they'd never listened to Beethoven, wouldn't we be shocked and horrified? -- while if they said they'd never heard Gaelic psalm singing, wouldn't we consider that perfectly understandable? (For one thing, there are about 13 million recordings of Beethoven available, and only one widely available one of Gaelic psalm singing. Doesn't that say something about a monopoly?) - --David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:53:39 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: broad brush NJC In a message dated 1/28/00 3:22:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, mlg@ukonline.co.uk writes: << I was thinking about what Fred was saying a couple of day ago, when he demolished all the output of the famous composers from three centuries. >> i dont think fred wrote that. i think that was tube and i think fred wrote: >Roman, you're making your point with too broad a brush: >It's true that the rich, royalty, and the church *paid for* a lot of >classical music but that doesn't in any way mean that that's who the >music >was written for. >You can't listen to the achingly beautiful 2nd movement of Beethoven's >7th >symphony and tell me that it was written for rich people, or that it >doesn't express some of the most profound human longing ever encoded into >music. What about Beethoven's iconoclastic late string quartets? >Frankly, to dismiss the entire era of Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, >Beethoven, >Mendelssohn, Brahms, Chopin, Schubert, Schumann, etc. in this manner is >dangerously indiscriminate. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:10:19 EST From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: NJC: In defense of Tube Dear Gentle JMDlers, I think if you look back & read carefully what Tube initially wrote, you will realize that while you may agree or disagree in whole in or in part with what he said, he did not write it as a personal attack on anyone on this list. He raised some interesting ideas. Why can't we just discuss them without attacking him personally? Instead of becoming ugly, this could be fun and we all might learn something. This is a very articulate and opinionated bunch but let's play nice. I mean do we need to be name calling in here when Wally's saying good-bye to us? Respectfully, - -Chili (who is happy to be able to recycle his favorite bumper sticker "Lick Bush" :-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:48:46 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: All this art talk ... (NJC) All this talk about art reminds me of one of the great Duck's Breath Home-made Radio Theatre spots, featuring the acerbic Mr. Ian Shoales: "So what is art? Art is a grant proposal ... let's say it's a 'times video meditation' or some other such trendy grant proposal double-talk. The foundation fires off a couple thou to the artist, who spends a weekend videotaping wax fruit set to a monotone voice-over in French -- then blows the rest on cheap red jug wine and arguing with his cronies about whether imagism is decadent or not." Don Rowe ;-) ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:17:51 -0600 From: Scott and Jody Subject: Re: Trippy music (Absolutely NJC) Bob wrote: > One of the things I like about Tom Waits' music, besdies his lyrical genius, is the fact that > he actively seeks out obsolete instruments and incorporates them into his music...I'll be > listening to his stuff and wondering "what is making THAT sound?" and find out he's playing a > harmonium or some other unique music-making tool... > > Tom Waits' favorite store is Ace Hardware...not counting Food Stores:~) I'd love to take a peek inside his garage! jody ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:33:19 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: see joni sing, see joni write.... From: "Jerome Gonzales" Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:34:49 -0800 Aside from the fact that this discussion has taken on an adversarial tone at certain points (we're all just very defensive of our Joni, I think), I really enjoy this discussion. So much that I'm going to throw my semi-lurking two cents in. I love Joni's current work beyond belief. I love her old stuff with indescribable passion. I think that comparing the earlier work with the later work, favorably or not is a moot point. It's always been my feeling that there are several distinct Joni Mitchells on the record shelf. At least on mine there is. As such, Joni (writer, producer, and singer) comparison between Joni and Joni isn't unequal, it's apples and oranges. Forgive this rather hackneyed (and somewhat unflattering) analogy: You can't compare a grape and a raisin. The grape is what it is. The raisin is what the grape became. But they are not the same and one is not better than another. And while you'll never make wine out of the raisin, you'll never get two scoops of grapes into a cereal box, either. (See-I told you it was a hackneyed analogy! And I don't know that anyone outside the U.S. will get the cheesy Raisin Bran reference...) So that's my say. Old Joni, New Joni-just give me Joni. Jerome ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:31:59 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: re: Lady In Satin (NJC) From: "Jerome Gonzales" Subject: re: Lady In Satin (NJC) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:45:57 -0800 Just to jump on an ongoing discussion....To say 'Lady In Satin' is not every Billie fan's cup of tea is an understatement. I love the album. In fact it is my favorite Billie album. But Mark (I think it was Mark-sorry if it wasn't) was right when he said it's not a good place to begin. Commodore is pretty much the consensus for that. But I think if you move into the work on Verve and then get Lady In Satin some time after that, it's a bit easier. Still, there's no denying that Billie was in bad shape during the making of this album. (The liner notes of my version tell of conducter Ray Ellis getting "water" out of Billie's pitcher only to discover she'd been downing pure gin!) She was on her last legs and this album details the pain she knew so much about. I guess my feeling on Billie is very similar to my feeling on Joni-there's room for it all and I want it all. There's no place to hide on 'Lady In Satin' and it shows. Every fleeting line of happiness and long-standing line of sadness is there for all too see. Even I, who love it, find it an uncomfortable listen from time to time. Naked emotion can overwhlem. If you don't like it, you're not alone and it's cool. This was more to let those who don't "get" why people like it in on one perspective. Discuss, discuss.... : ) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:05:27 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: Trouble with The Tiger Susan writes >Harlem in Havana was written specifically for the VG-8 and I think it works beautifully (with >the help of the brilliant Brian Blade) ... Yes, some tracks do work brilliantly with the VG-8, it's just that so much of Joni's early work was acoustically based that we do tend to miss that aspect of her work. Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Van Diemans Land ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:10:58 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: most depressing song NJC In a message dated 25/01/00 07:26:28 GMT Standard Time, ewwt@netzero.net writes: << It's GOT to be *Honey* by Bobby Goldsboro.... E.T. >> That song reminds me of the immortal line of Oscar Wilde's about the death of Nancy in "Oliver Twist", which I may be paraphrasing slightly: "It would take a heart of stone to read about it and not laugh" Azeem in London Just come back from seeing Onegin, very fine ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:11:05 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Cost of Housing - NJC In a message dated 25/01/00 14:33:56 GMT Standard Time, mlg@ukonline.co.uk writes: << Colin reveals a fact known only to well to myself.. > >You should try affording a house in the UK especially in London >where a > >one bed > >flat will cost $160, 000(USA). And Catherine comes clean.. > That actually sounds kind of reasonable to me! Whereupon Martin blurts out: << Catherine. Will you marry me?? >> And what springs to Azeem's strangely quote-conscious mind but an immortal exchange from Duck Soup, only slightly paraphrased (owing to failing memory): Rufus: Not that I care but what happened to your husband? Woman: He died two years ago Rufus: I bet he's just using that as an excuse Woman: He died in my arms, and I kissed him goodbye Rufus: So it was murder then. Will you marry me? Are you rich? Answer the second question first ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:38:26 -0600 From: dave fairall / beth miller Subject: NEW TO DIGEST I'm new to the Digest but a lifelong Joni fan. Saw her at Yasgur's farm, (Day in the Garden), and again at College Park Md. last year, (couldn't sit through Dylan after hearing Joni and her great band) and I'll never be the same.....truly magical. Ordered one of Sue McNamara's pics for my brother's Christmas gift last year, and it's proudly displayed on his wall. Thanks Sue. Persuing the various posts, I'd like to chime in to say that as a musician, I too think S+L is her greatest accomplishment, although the entire body of work is just amazing. In particular the work of Jaco, Brecker and Metheny is very special on that record, (a desert island album) and I'd love to see her collaborate with Michael and Pat again, (maybe even some kind of tribute to Jaco). I once read an interview w/ Robben Ford who was quoted as saying that of all the musicians he's worked with in the past, Joni is the one he would love to record with again.... that would also be way cool.....Robben may be the best blues guitarist on the planet. Thanks, Dave Fairall Baltimore MD ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:12:46 -0500 From: waytoblu@mindspring.com Subject: Re: the chosen few(NJC) tube writes: >I think you're probably making the common mistake that there's something >noble about art - There isn't. It's just recreation. It can communicate >an idea, embellish and add relief to the drudgery or functionality of an >everyday object or service, or, like wine, gladden the heart of man for >a season. Art is a blessing, not a right. We've been provided with >enough beauty in nature without really NEEDING to create anymore. > I'm sorry but I really do not understand what you are so bitter about. Also, I don't think you understood what I was saying. Whether art should be considered noble or not is the furthest thing from my mind. It has to do with passion and the urge to create something of beauty. You say you love the romantic music and yet I have found nothing romantic at all about anything you have said. Alot of your arguments are simply arbitrations and I really don't know how to respond to anything based on simple bitterness. Everybody's art exists in a vacuum but without it noone would be heard. Criticism exists so people can choose what they want to see, do, or hear but vindictiveness has no place. If this is really your attitude about art I suggest you read "The Quest of Iranon" by H.P.Lovecraft. I'm an artist too, and whenever I sell a piece of work, I know that >there's now plenty of rich suckers out there who can afford to buy the >kind of crap I produce. I'm glad to be able to milk back a bit of wealth >from the pompous assholes. When I score a sale off a richman, it's more >than just a sale, it's a blow struck for the common man - I'm getting >something back that his ancestors stole from the peasants hundreds of >years ago. If I can do it with art, so much the better, 'cos producing >art ain't like REAL work now, is it! Again, if this is your attitude about art then I am really sorry. If you consider your own work to be crap then there is something horribly wrong. I'm not in music for the money. It's not about money at all. Nick Drake wrote some of the most beautiful, haunting music ever written and yet he died almost completely unknown, severely depressed, perhaps believing he was a failure. Now, 25 years later, he is finally getting the recognition he deserves, which is long overdue, but great and incredible nonetheless. Recently, his song "Pink Moon" was used in a Volkswagon commercial. I think it's wonderful that he has developed this cult following. Sure, the music industry is a business. To promote his new album a couple of years ago, Johnny Cash distributed a postcard with a picture of him shooting a bird and saying "I want to thank country music radio and the Nashville music industry for all their support," which was none at all. I agree, there are pompous assholes but who cares. What does that have to do with anything about music? My friends and I used to go to classical performances wearing tyedye shirts and ripped jeans. It felt really good just to be myself and not be concerned with anyone else. Actually, we snuck into see Mozart's Requiem once. Mahler's 6th symphony is my favorite classical piece. But I don't see that your arguments have anything to do with music or art. > >. I'm in it for >money, so that I can feed my family. But I don't think my work is >important enough to need to be seen by a universal audience, >although it's tempting to think that way - But it's only art, man! It's >human dross. What comes out of a man defiles him. Art's nothing to be >proud of. We mustn't make the mistake of thinking we're doing anybody a >public service by being artists. It's just a recreation industry If that is really your belief, then again, you are no different than the people you are criticizing. I am damn proud of my art and you know, it's taken me almost ten years to be able to say that and not feel self conscious or weird. Art is all about vulnerability and you seem to be so riled up and so bitter that it seems one would have to wade through all this esoteric rhetoric to get anywhere near the person inside. By all means, you have a right to be bitter for whatever reasons but I would suggest that you speak for yourself and not artists as a whole. Victor http://www.mindspring.com/~waytoblu/Tangled.htm ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #55 **************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?