From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #54 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Friday, January 28 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 054 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: BSN NJC ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: "Singer's Songs" -- why Joan will be just fine [FredNow@aol.com] Re: broad brush NJC [Marian ] If Joni can't sing, the pope's not catholic. [Richard Rice ] Re: BSN [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Trouble With The Tiger (was Re: BSN) [FredNow@aol.com] Re: NJC BSN [catman ] Re: BSN NJC [catman ] Re: BSN NJC [catman ] Re: BSN comments (NJC) ["Alan Lorimer" ] joni's voice [Deb Messling ] the chosen few [Roman ] Re: broad brush NJC [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: the chosen few (NJC) [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: BSN NJC ["Mark or Travis" ] On needing Mozart like a fish needs a bicycle [Chilihead2@aol.com] RE: broad brush NJC [Louis Lynch ] Re: NO SMOKING ... SC ... NJC [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: Bagpipes and Visits (NJC) [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: Boden CD (NJC) [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: Trouble With The Tiger (was Re: BSN) [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: BSN (Billie Holiday) NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: BSN comments (NJC) [catman ] Re: joni's voice [catman ] Re: Trouble with The Tiger [Susan McNamara ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:51:15 -0800 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: BSN NJC Catman admits: << I don't like Jazz. You know, like Bob and others, i do wish you would not put words in my mouth(or my emails)!!! No where have I said I do not like Joni's voice. if I didn't like her voice, i wouldn't have all her albums!I said that I cannot imagine her being able to sing 'singers' songs. That is NOT the equivalent of saying I don't like her voice. >> Sorry for being so blunt, Catman! I am certainly no expert of jazz myself. But how can you deny that you repeatedly post that Joni can't sing anymore? Perhaps I misinterpret your constant critique of PWWAM. Perhaps you haven't heard it in stereo. Perhaps you prefer studio recordings played on a good sound system. I sincerely don't mean to flame. I just love Joni SO MUCH (particularly her recent work) that I am guilty of saying some pretty stupid things in her defense. You obviously adore Joni, Catman. & I can't wait to hear you eat crow come Feb. 8th! I reserved my copy of the *special* BSN today. Just PLEASE don't tell me you're waiting until late-March.... E.T. __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 03:27:40 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: "Singer's Songs" -- why Joan will be just fine Susan McNamara wrote: >>I feel Joni's singing started taking on this instrumental quality >>around the time of Mingus (could be earlier with some stuff on >>Hissing of Summer Lawns) Actually, for me Joni has *always* used her voice as an instrument right from the beginning, both figuratively and literally, as in her exquisite, spine-tingling, soul-shivering "flute" solo on I Don't Know Where I Stand. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:39:14 +0100 From: Marian Subject: Re: broad brush NJC Tube wrote: > And that's why I have a problem with the older > classical music - It's what it's stuffed with. > I'm not mad at the composers - I'm mad at the > world they lived in. The composers accepted > commissions and payment for their work in the > knowledge that their work could only be transmitted > through highly limited channels to only a priveleged > elite. You make this sound like it was some sort of failing on their part! I bet most pre-Marx composers didn't even think about this aspect. In any case, I'm sure it has always been true that artists, musicians, writers, unless independently wealthy, are grateful to have a market for the products of their inspiration. The freedom to create (which is a product of being able to market the creations) is a blessing which even artists in our times do not enjoy. I would draw the line at creating for the sake of furthering oppressive governments/dictators. Not all composers created solely for the wealthy. It is true that Bach was employed by the church, but his masterpieces were available to the churchgoers, not all of whom were well-to-do. Music history is not my strong point, but I am sure there were other composers in a similar situation. And thank the universe for J.S. Bach !!!! If you never listen to any other pre-20th century composer, listen to him! It would have been a terrible tragedy had he not had the means to create as much as he did. > This is in marked contrast to writers of the > period, who since the invention of the printing press > knew that their work could be not just transmitted, but > actually DISTRIBUTED to a much wider audience. > Part of the zeal of a writer is in knowing he can share > his creation with a potentially universal audience. > Music however could not be distributed in society > until the invention of radio and recording equipment. > Pre-1850 composers seriously weren't expecting > anybody but the rich to ever hear their compositions. How can you know for sure that any of the pre-1850 composers didn't wish to share their creations with all of humanity? Just because it wasn't physically possible, doesn't mean that the desire for universal communication was not there. Of all artistic mediums, music probably has the most potential for universal communication, even without words. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:54:12 -0500 From: Richard Rice Subject: If Joni can't sing, the pope's not catholic. Hi all, I am so impressed by my self restraint. I have managed to listen to the LACE interviews AND pass over the prequels to the BSN cd. I am saving my ears for the real deal. I want the whole experience to open up magically. BSN will definitely get some exposure with me, as I play her music in all the art classes I teach. Mostly the kids grumble and scratch their heads, but I refuse to relent. They simply do not get the big picture so I happy try to help them along as best I can. I always tell them, "This class is not a democracy, but a benevolent dictatorship..." I will have a captive audience when BSN is released. As for Joni not being able to 'sing', the thought is hardly worth a response, so I won't. The only talents Joni lacks, as so well put by one reviewer, is the 'gift for writing dumb pop songs.' Beyond that, she is a brilliant talent and one of the great artists of all time, certainly one of the greatest of this century. She can do it all, and all of it with amazing craftsmanship, creativity and originality. And I say this not as some mindless slobbering fanboy. I can be very critical of her. Sometimes I am embarassed for her when she forgets a verse, drifts in tempo or wails a note or two rather than sing them. She has done those things on occasion. In truth, these flubs only make me smile. Thank god she's human! I was beginning to think Mulder and Scully would have to do an episode or two about her! Can't you just see running up to her when she did the black face thing for DWRD and pulling on her face, only to find underneath it all, she's a little green alien in blonde drag with a brain equivalent to three Mac G4s? So she butchered the Mingus material in her first live take. The woman has done more beautiful art in a month than most of the world could do in twenty years put together. She has overcome every weak point in her music. But I have digressed from the reason I originally meant to post: regarding her writing. I don't think Joni has missed a beat at all in the craft of her writing. It is as sharp, perceptive, discriptive, insightful, and as richly layered as ever. What has changed, and this change goes with every album done, is her life experience. The songs grow out of life. If her earlier work resonates more with you, it is because the life issues she is responding to, resonate more with you as well. It's very possible that the world may not care one hoot that she is happy to have found her lost family. It may touch fewer people, lack the 'importance' of her ealier triumphs, but that doesn't make it any less viable for her to write about it. The concerns of a sixty year old woman may not have as much worth to us as those of a thirty year old woman. We are going to find out whether or not that's true, I hope. (Praying for new material.) Given her track record, my money is on Joan making it definitely worth my while to stay tuned. John. (Not a green man with the brain power of 3 G4's and regretting that there are meaningful possiblities in the subject of life experience generating themes, generating songs, but my brain is too lacking to think of them...) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 04:08:42 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: BSN Alan Larson wrote: >>> In my canon, her first nine studio albums assure > her place as >>one of the bona fide geniuses of all time. > > -Fred >>I agree totally Fred. I think her coming out with these songs now >>shows us that even she regrets to some degree her change in song >>writing genre. She loves those old songs more than she has let on, >>but just didn't want it to seem like she was "leaning" on her early >>successes. IMHO She HAS grown as an artist, and that's a good thing. >>And who knows? Maybe she will yet write another BSN or Circle Game >>or Urge for Going. Blasphemers unite... for better or worse... >>sorry! Eeesshh! It's not my usual habit to disagree with those who ostensibly agree with me, and no offense, but I feel I can't "unite" with what you write here, Alan. You say you agree with me but it's with something I didn't intend! In no way do I think that Joni recording standards indicates any regrets on her part about her recent songwriting, nor do I think she should have any, despite my disappointment with same. She has proudly followed her drummer, so to speak, for better or for worse, and rightly so. All I can hope, for my own sake, is that she finds her musical song gift again and writes new melodies as inspired as the older ones. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:07:11 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: Trouble with The Tiger Jason says: >Why does it seem to me that so many of the >tracks sound remarkably alike, if not in melody >or subject matter, then ambience or tone? I think Jason has really hit the nail on the head here. There is a "sameness" to the tracks on TTT. This is the first album where Joni relies solely on the VG8. While the VG8 is an amazing instrument, it just doesn't have the depth or feeling of an acoustic guitar. As Susan McNamara said earlier in the year "Although the VG8 made her decide not to retire from performing, her acoustic work on NRH and TI are breathtaking." Tracks such as "Turbulent Indigo" and "Slouching Towards Bethlehem" are excellent examples of what we are missing out on here. Even though I would hesitate to recommend TTT(blasphemy, I know), "Harlem In Havana" and "Love Puts On A New Face" are still among my favourite Joni tracks ever. Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Tasmania ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 04:39:12 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: BSN Louis Lynch wrote: >>Joni Mitchell has produced some of the wittiest and eloquently >>complex lyrics I've ever heard, with some of the greatest images, >>"summer colored skin," "sittin' on my groceries," "slick black >>cellophane," "red sun... rolling over a grey sky." CaTGirl627@aol.com wrote: >>Although I am not CRAZY over TTT, TI was AMAZING!! Alright you >>guys,,,have you forgotten this incredible record?!?! Each song is >>deep and tell such a picturesque story. Don Rowe wrote: >>Joni Mitchell took conventional lyric writing into uncharted waters >>from her first release, and then pushed the envelope as far as even >>she could go -- and nobody's come within fifteen light years of her >>since. "Eric Taylor" wrote: >>Harper Lou admits: <<....I don't think Taming the Tiger contains Joni's best writing. In fact, "Face Lift" and "Stay in Touch" sound sort of rambling to me, not nearly as well crafted as most of her other songs, which are poetic masterpieces. >> >>Critics called Hejira's vocals & lyrics *rambling* when it was >>released. 20 years later Hejira is hailed as Joni's masterpiece. >>*We're burning brightly / Clinging like fire to fuel / I'm grinning >>like a fool* is as great as anything Joni has penned. Another line >>I love from TTT: *Every disc / A poker chip / Every song / Just a >>one-night stand / Formula music / Girlie guile! / Genuine junkfood / >> For juveniles!* "Mark or Travis" wrote: >>And to me the songs you mention here are mere primers compared to >>what she has done on her last 3 albums. I could cite examples. I've >>done that before but it wouldn't change anybody's mind. But I can't >>resist at least one lyrical example: >>He said 'I wish you were with me here The leaves are electric They >>burn on the river bank Countless, heatless flames' I said 'Well >>send me some pictures then And I'll paint pyrotechnic Explosions of >>your Autumn Til we meet again.... >>I don't think she could have written something like that even 20 >>years ago. Certainly not when she started. It doesn't get any better >>than that. Quite awhile back I wrote that, for me, songs are more about the music than the lyrics. Forgive me for repeating much of it here, but it's pertinent to the subject at hand. To be sure, the marriage of profound lyrics with profound music is a miracle (and one that Joni has performed as often as anyone), but the music has to say everything the lyrics say ... and much more. Many cite the maturation of Joni's lyrics through the years, away from the more frilly beginnings, and I can see that growth. However, even with her frilliest lyric, the music was deeply mature and profound, almost preternaturally so, and expressed so much more than what the lyric may have failed to deliver. Most of the responses to my recent post about early Joni vs. later Joni, as quoted above, cite her lyrics, with which I've never had a quarrel. I think for many folks what a song is "about" is its lyrics, the music comes second. Sometimes (but not always) this is because while we all use words in speaking and writing, our foremost language, it necessitates a more musically educated palette to "speak" and understand the language of music, which is to be expected. For me, then, what a song is about is its music, for if we take the music away we have (only) poetry, but if we take the lyrics away we still have music, and in a good song, musically speaking, the meaning is still there. While Joni's lyrical gift has remained intact, I sadly feel that her musical gift has not. Her melodies and chordal movement do not seem nearly as inspired, inventive, or memorable as they once were. I can, for instance, easily recall almost any melodic passage from her first nine studio albums, even if I haven't heard it in months or years. On the other hand, I can hardly remember a single melody from her recent work, nor do very many of them move me when I listen. I'm sorry, I know to many this really is heretical, but I assure you that I consider Joni's early work to be as musically profound as any music I've ever heard, and that is really saying a lot. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 04:39:31 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Trouble With The Tiger (was Re: BSN) Jason Maloney wrote: >>I don't know what it is about TTT that makes it difficult to love in >>anywhere near the same way as just about any other Joni studio album >>I have heard (which is all of them bar FTR and Mingus). Jason ... do I read this correctly? You've *never* hear For The Roses?! Man, get thee to a tune-ery, toute suite! One of Joni's very best, on every level, and when forced up against the gun I choose it as my single deserted island Joni album. >>Why does it seem to me that so many of the tracks [on TTT] sound remarkably >>alike, if not in melody or subject matter, then ambience or tone? Partly because they *are* very alike, but mostly because they just aren't very inspired, musically speaking; in their note and chord choices ... the melodies, the songs ... are just not that good or memorable. As opposed to those on For The Roses, which is, musically speaking, everything that Taming The Tiger is not. (Sorry once again for any possible offense ... none intended). - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:19:56 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC BSN In all the time I have been here I have never figured out the tape tree thing, and after the video fiasco, I didn't dare ask. Occasionally people ahve sent me tapes. As for PWWAM, I have it but couldn't force myself to sit and listen to it all! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:39:28 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: BSN NJC Eric Taylor wrote: > Catman admits: > > << I don't like Jazz. You know, like Bob and others, i do wish you would not > put words in my mouth(or my emails)!!! No where have I said I do not like > Joni's voice. if I didn't like her voice, i wouldn't have all her albums!I > said that I cannot imagine her being able to sing 'singers' songs. That is > NOT the equivalent of saying I don't like her voice. >> > > Sorry for being so blunt, Catman! I am certainly no expert of jazz > myself. > But how can you deny that you repeatedly post that Joni can't sing > anymore? easily! One or two posts do not constitue repeatedly! Anyway, I have my opinion and in my opinion her voice is not what I call a singing voice. Others have different interpretations of what that means. As already stated, her voice really suits her work. > Perhaps I misinterpret your constant critique of PWWAM. Eric, you enjoy exaggerating. > Perhaps you > haven't heard it in stereo. I have heard it. Once and disliked it. It made me cringe with embarassment. Now maybe you don't like that and don't react that way. fine. we all differ in our tastes and reactions. > Perhaps you prefer studio recordings played on a > good sound system. > I sincerely don't mean to flame. I just love Joni SO MUCH (particularly > her recent work) that I am guilty of saying some pretty stupid things in her > defense. > You obviously adore Joni, Catman. & I can't wait to hear you eat crow > come Feb. 8th! Eat crow? Since I haven't said it will be awful, I won't have to. I merely said i can't imagine it. > I reserved my copy of the *special* BSN today. Just PLEASE don't tell me > you're waiting until late-March.... I will be waiting until it is released here, of course. As for ordering from the USA, I am not made of money nor so desperate. Have a nice day and don't have apoplexy at the thought of my heresy! > E.T. > > __________________________________________ > NetZero - Defenders of the Free World > Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at > http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:49:51 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: BSN NJC If it makes you feel better: as you know I am a huge fan of carly the only person i listen to as much(if not more!) than Joni. Now carly brought an album out called Film Noir in 97(?). I listened to it about 4 times and not since. It did nothing for me. Whereas after several listens TTT grew on me. Oh and just so you know it isn't just singers I don't love properly, my other half has written and had published 4 or more books. I read a few pages of one of them and that is it!!! Not for me. Doesn't mean they are bad( I wouldn't know) but that they bore me rigid. (they are non fiction) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:12:11 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: BSN comments (NJC) Catman, To me it would be pretty boring if everyone did have the same opinion on things. Not many people seem brave enough to put forward views that are contrary to main stream thinking here, but when someone does it actually gets people really thinking. One of the main problems is just communication itself. It's actually quite hard to accurately represent ideas in your head with written words. Harder still to derive someone's meaning from their written words, especially when you anticipate in advance what you think they are saying! The problems arise when we start arguing. You only listen (or read) what the other person has to say to give yourself ammunition for your own barrages! Another thing to remember is that getting along together is not natural, it's something we've all got to learn. We've got a whole group of different people here, it's hard enough for two people to get along together. I live by myself, and I often piss myself off! ps: For CHRISTS SAKE just calm down and remember your quotes to the BSN digest: "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Tasmania ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 06:37:41 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: joni's voice I think Joni's voice is more than ready for the songs she's covering on the new album. It's true that a combination of age and smoking has made her voice less supple, and that's occasionally frustrating when a short, breathy approach doesn't suit the music (and her voice comes and goes in that regard: strong and supple at Woodstock; less satisfactor IMO on the PWWAM video). BUT (and I guess this is a "me too") she throws so much heart into this new singing. I've heard her in years past critized as "chilly;" well it's pretty warm in here, pal! So womanly and sexy and emotional. BTW, if the pillories her for her "lost voice" I hope they are not the same critics who've been lionizing Tony Bennett. I saw him live last summer and his voice was as age-worn as Joni's, but with none of the artistry or warmth, IMVHO. Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ I love cats. They give the home a heartbeat. - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:15:00 +0100 From: Roman Subject: the chosen few tube wrote: >But classical music CDs I can easily get along without, with no physical >side-effects. And two hundred years ago, I'd have HAD to get along >without it. So that's why I can just shove it. waytoblu responded: >This does not make any sense to me at all. I know there are people today >who live on the street and do not own cd players and cannot buy Joni >Mitchell cd's but that's not going to stop me from listening to Joni or >any other artist for that matter. I think it is >extremely presumptious to >attribute the source of inspiration to composers who lived 200 years ago. >And don't you think that Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, whoever would have >wanted everyone, regardless of there >social caste, to hear their music. >I know I do. >As a musician and songwriter, I write songs for myself though they are >inspired in a major way by people I have come to know and love, stories I >have read, experiences I have lived through...Simply though, I write >because I have to, because I don't know how >else to live and I have an >innate desire for everybody to hear my songs because I love them and I am >driven to >write, sing, perform. >If I was rich and had a lot of money, I could build my own studio or buy >hours of recording time and sit for days and record all my songs (of >which I have over a hundred) but instead, I >work 40 hours a week, >struggle to make ends meet, and promote my music when I can and keep >hoping that >someday or somewhere, someone who does have some >money/clout/power will take an interest in what I am >doing and maybe I >will be able to realize my dreams and create something >that is beautiful >that will be around >long after I am gone. >You see, nothing is any different now than it was 200 years ago. Money >is >power...why do you think so much crap is on the radio and television and >so much good music is left unknown >and unheard. To have this >attitude...to me it seems just as bad as the people whom you hold in such >contempt. If >you really don't like classical music then don't listen to >it. But if you like any music, go listen to it now and love it >because >music withstands and perseveres through all times and cannot be and >should not be kept in a box for only a chosen few. I think you're probably making the common mistake that there's something noble about art - There isn't. It's just recreation. It can communicate an idea, embellish and add relief to the drudgery or functionality of an everyday object or service, or, like wine, gladden the heart of man for a season. Art is a blessing, not a right. We've been provided with enough beauty in nature without really NEEDING to create anymore. Try reading Chapter 8 of Madame Bovary to get something of the flavour of all this. Here's a dame who's clearly out of the loop - she never gets to hear fine music, because she's just two clicks below the necessary social level. And she's a doctor's wife for crying out loud! Hey if even she is excluded from the finer things in life, think how much less the farm labourer's are gonna ever see or hear of high art! But they all got by, somehow. Do you think God would create a world that depended on everyone having free access to good art and music for their happiness? No I don't think so. But Emma Bovary had her mind blown at the ball - she let her apparent lack of an interesting life filled with beautiful things and people get to her, and it doomed her to a life of disillusionment. I'm an artist too, and whenever I sell a piece of work, I know that there's now plenty of rich suckers out there who can afford to buy the kind of crap I produce. I'm glad to be able to milk back a bit of wealth from the pompous assholes. When I score a sale off a richman, it's more than just a sale, it's a blow struck for the common man - I'm getting something back that his ancestors stole from the peasants hundreds of years ago. If I can do it with art, so much the better, 'cos producing art ain't like REAL work now, is it! It's like the Indian guy's father said about Thatcherism in 'My Beautiful Laundrette' - 'Don't feel guilty about making money - You've got to be able to milk the system'. ie, those foul colonial Brits shafted the Indians up the ass for two hundred years - But now in the 1980's the Indians and Pakistanis are in England, trading almost as equals, so they can milk back some of that wealth. And more power to 'em I say! You see, there's nothing noble about the art business. I'm in it for money, so that I can feed my family. But I don't think my work is important enough to need to be seen by a universal audience, although it's tempting to think that way - But it's only art, man! It's human dross. What comes out of a man defiles him. Art's nothing to be proud of. We mustn't make the mistake of thinking we're doing anybody a public service by being artists. It's just a recreation industry - - There's rules and there's dues to be paid. - Joni got mad at the 'audience' on the Isle of Wight, because they thought they deserved a free-festival, a re-run of Woodstock. But she had to tell'em - (paraphrased Joni-thoughts)"look guys, if you think I'm worth it, then you shouldn't begrudge paying for your ticket to hear me." Joni knows it's just business. Heck, Kristofferson was also so disgusted with the mob, he just walked off and left them to it. But Joni and Kris are looking at the situation from the point of view of 1970. They know the audience can afford to pay. But Beethoven and Mozart - Do you think they lost any sleep over the fact that they'd been lucky enough to find a niche market for their talents, when the rest of the working class were often near starving and totally and actively excluded from their audience because of the political beliefs of the people who were paying for the music to be composed and performed? Well do you think they lost any sleep over it? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. Would I have lost any sleep over it? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. Would you have lost any sleep over it? I don't know. Would any of us sleep well in our German hotel room, lying on a comfortable mattress stuffed with the hair of exterminated Jews? Would we let it spoil our holiday? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not... But you need to think about these things. Like I already said, I'm not directly mad at the composers - I'm mad at the world they lived in. Mozart & Co milked the system. If we want to be kind to them, then lets say that they too were striking a blow for the common man. But all the same I'd just as soon see that whole long period in history buried and forgotten, so whenever I hear music from that era, it starts me thinking about how sickeningly unjust a world it was. I don't like to be reminded of it. And because I personally don't have any illusions about art being noble or sacred for it's own sake, then I can afford to take the Draconian and Philistine stance of flushing Mozart's work down the can along with his patrons. I know there's a strand of historical interpretation that popularly flows in some quarters of the United States that looks back on old Europe as some kind of happy, jolly bohemian place, full of fine music and art and altruistic, cultivated lords and ladies, especially during the wonderful Renaissance, although still largely peopled by stupid, lazy, communistic types who just couldn't get their act together until the Industrial Revolution came along. But the Industrial Revolution was a new golden age of enterprise and self-enabling betterment for those who would work - The poor farmers were suddenly freed from the land, were able to find steady-paying work in the new factories and so raise their standard of living and station in life, and everyone lived happily ever after. Listen this is such a load of crap - I know it still gets taught in American schools because sometimes I cruise the websites of US grade schools and I read the reports the kids are writing. (and being given top marks for it!) Paul Simon sings (on 'Kodachrome', I think it is) "When I look back at all the crap I learned in high-school" Listen, old Europe was a sewer. The Industrial Revolution has eventually borne some sweet fruit, and we're all benefiting from that today - Like the democratisation of music and the arts for instance, which I've already discussed - Nearly anyone can have a Niiiiiiiiiiiii-kon camera now. And that's good. Cargo-worship is a thing of the past, Polynesians are using mobiles now. But the Industrial Revolution was a long and very painful process, and it didn't have anything to do with the altruism of the upper classes. As my quote from the MP Dr Philimore yesterday shows, the factory owners would have been happy to just lock all us workers up in the dark factory and throw away the key. True, the Luddites and Saboteurs of the late 1700s, along with (much later) the Russian revolutionaries who killed the Romanoff family and trashed the art and beauty of the old imperialist regime (before the 'new bosses' [see The Who 'Won't get fooled again'] told them not to - better to sequester this stuff (along with the good vodka) and sell it later when times got hard, or if Stalin needed the cash for a new house), or the austere Maoist Communists of China, or even, dare I say, the Islamic fundamentalist mobs who overturned the Shah of Iran and put a hyperascetic murderous killjoy tyrant like the Ayatollah in power instead; All these were, in the long run, only hurting themselves, acting out of ignorant misinformed prejudices, and ultimately impoverishing their own cultural life, foolishly closing their minds to a more gentle, more beautiful, richer way of life - But see, that's the Philistinery that breeds in a climate of poverty and oppression. These 'crimes' against art and culture are crimes of passion. And if you can't understand that, or why I can trash Beethoven without batting an eyelid, then you need to read some more history, and not the jingoistic capitalistic crap they still serve up as history in American grade schools. I think that most of tbe JMDL is aleady better educated than that, which is why I enjoy opening up and sharing my heart with you all once in a while. Jonipeople understand, or at least try to. Thanks for your patience - it's not easy putting gut feelings into words, but, after prompting, I think I've finally got all of this one off my chest at last. Something just pushed my button, is all. tube.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:11:00 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: broad brush NJC In a message dated 1/28/2000 12:40:18 AM Pacific Standard Time, m.russell@iaea.org writes: << And that's why I have a problem with the older classical music - It's what it's stuffed with. >> Is this statement real??? This is a real life exhibition of that line in the old Steve Martin movie where the guy with his date in the restaraunt screams at the waiter, "Waiter why did you dare to bring me this OLD wine, bring me the NEW wine and bring me back those melted cheeze appetizers you talked me out of". One shouldnt criticize what is apparently beyond ones comprehension. There is a reason that something in music is truly LOVED by millions of people over a hundred years after it is written. Just because you dont get it doesnt change that fact certainly. <<>> Now heres a classic statement if there ever was one. Actually the Pleistocene period positively infuriates me myself. Those ratty old woooly mammoths soiling the landscape and those dastardly Pterodactyls snatching the unsuspecting from their root hunting. zounds. Mi dispiace per qualche divertimento. ciao. marcel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:25:43 EST From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: the chosen few (NJC) In a message dated 1/28/2000 7:42:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, ramnix@pronet.it writes: << I'm an artist too, and whenever I sell a piece of work, I know that there's now plenty of rich suckers out there who can afford to buy the kind of crap I produce. I'm glad to be able to milk back a bit of wealth from the pompous assholes. When I score a sale off a richman, it's more than just a sale, it's a blow struck for the common man - I'm getting something back that his ancestors stole from the peasants hundreds of years ago. If I can do it with art, so much the better, 'cos producing art ain't like REAL work now, is it! >> You are kidding, right? I am sickened by what you wrote. Couple of points- Why would you produce art that you consider to be crap? If I produced a piece that I hated, believe me..I would shelf it in a minute. No way would I offer it for anyone to purchase. My art is a reflection of ME. And if comes out like shit, then another coat of gesso goes right over that sucker. Second, it really really disturbs me to see people "punish" others for the sins of their grandfathers and greatgrandfathers. I never even knew mine- so why the hell should I be punished for their actions, whatever they might have been? This kind of thinkig really frightens me. Thirdly, though this list is the most openminded one I've ever been on, there is still one last prejudice that seems perfectly ok to accept: prejudice against people with money. I am fortunate in that my husband is in medicine and we can now afford nice things. Our kids have nice clothes, we have a nice home, nice cars, etc. It was a very long road getting there, but I won't bore you with the hardships we had in order for my husband to get where he is. It makes me uneasy to realize how many people hate me for my good fortune. I send my kids to humanistic schools so they will not get caught up in the prejudices of this world. I teach them equality and respect for all people. When I'm not at work, I spend many many hours working with non-profit orgs, for no pay, helping people who are in need, hoping this will also teach my children that life isn't about taking taking taking. The tone of your letter is so angry, it makes me pretty sad. Terry P.S. If I were sleeping on a bed stuffed with Jewish hair, then yes..it certainly would ruin my holiday. Sheesh. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 06:35:24 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: BSN NJC > E.T. > NP: Lady In Satin > Well everyone has a right to their personal likes & dislikes. Thank you for not taking too much offense at my rather snippy post. I still say that 'Lady in Satin' is *NOT* the record anyone should buy as an introduction to Billie. If you can find 'The Commodore Recordings', try that one. Those cuts were recorded in 1939 and 1944 and they are breathtaking. Her voice was in a lot better shape. If you already have this one & you still don't like Billie, well, that's life I guess. I'm more than willing to send you a tape if you're interested. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:38:37 EST From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: On needing Mozart like a fish needs a bicycle Dear Tube et al, "You've got to shake your fists at lightning ...you've got to roar like forest fire"-JM While I find your recent posts refreshingly acerbic and witty, I think you're forgetting something important. There are always musically inclined people born into every level of the social atmosphere. People who will bang two coconuts together and make a symphony to make your heart sing. The Africans brought over as slaves to the Americas, clung to their beautiful rhythms which evolved into the sophisticated music we call jazz, rock, gospel, calypso, reggae, the blues, etc. My ancestors (ignorant native American killing bastards though they were) brought instruments from Europe and made music during the long winter months. And of course, there are always people with the gift of song. People who sang in the fields while burdened down to breaking. These innate musical talents have nothing to do with the socio-economics of the thing. The peasants always had their music and will always. They MAY have needed Mozart like a fish needs a bicycle, but they still needed and did have music. - -Chili PS. I did go to an American public high school (and in the states that means public) and I was lucky enough to have some wonderful teachers in spite of all the race riots, gangs, killings, etc., and yes there was some crap, but it's my job to sort out the crap from the useful. History is just "his" story unless you were there and is as malleable as lead. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 06:42:38 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: broad brush NJC Roman, According to your theory, the Beethovens played for the very rich while the lowly peasants groveled in pain and despair without any music at all. Sorry, but you are dead wrong. You completely overlook the fact that the poor people played music, too. It was called folk music, and it was everywhere. Never in history was music reserved for a certain class of people. And never in history did music lack distribution. And never in history did the ruling classes try to monopolize music. Ever since the first human found a resonance in the first drum, music has been part of life. It grew in ancient temples, on battlegrounds, in ploughfields. It was everywhere. The rich did enjoy their music, and their musicians were well paid and well-appointed. But music lived in and came from the masses as well. Study any Mozart, Beethoven, or even the more modern Tchaikovsky, and you will find that they borrowed folk dances and musical themes from peasant songs. Those "Gyspy Dances" from Beethoven are authentic, you know. The royal courts may have enjoyed finer musical tapestries, but music was woven in the common cloth as well. It's no different today. The wealthy patrons still keep the classical musicians afloat. And the masses still have their "folk" music (now in radio and CD form, of course). And there are still very rich musicians and very poor musicians. Even our dear Joni Mitchell enjoys the privilege for which you condemn Beethoven. Not every musician can afford a VG8 and a home recording studio and several months without having to do anything but work on music (instead of plodding away at a day job). Joni is now one of the musical elite, just like the composers who could afford pianos in those days. Also, the rich and the poor weren't as separated as the world you describe. People were much more close physically in the older cities -- no car windows to separate them. The peasants coming from the fields used the same gates as the royalty. And I'm sure Mozart or Beethoven spent an evening or two around a bonfire, drinking grog, enjoying a show from a group of traveling minstrels. For you to discount some of the finest composers in history, simply because they enjoyed privilege and patronage is to slap the muse in her face. Modern rock musicians are paid incredible sums of money, and it's obvious that they work a lot less at their craft -- rock music is kids' stuff compared to some of the complex romantic works. Music is probably a little more prevalent and less special now. Because of reproduction equipment, it's everywhere, all the time, in elevators and grocery stores, etc. So, forget about proletarian political theory and listen to some Beethoven. Just listen. It's full of emotion, and life, and energy -- that's what music is all about, and always has been about. Regards, Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:47:36 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: NO SMOKING ... SC ... NJC In a message dated 1/27/00 4:30:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, Louis.Lynch@wonderware.com writes: << Anyway, point is, I'm having a bit of trouble controlling myself here of late, and the cravings to smoke are less frequent but much more intense. >> i quit smoking in 1981. i smoked marlboro lights and marlboro regulars for 7 years, pack and a half a day. the people i was living with forced me to try and quit. after three weeks, i became quite distressed about it. a visitor came to the house and he had some winstons. a close match to the boro reds. i stole three from his pack and went out into the woods for a walk. lit the first one and found out that it tasted like shit, since it had been three weeks since i had smoked. so there comes a time where you are quite miserable because you can't really go back because you have gone to far, but you can't relieve the itch because you have not gone far enough. and that is where you are. i will tell you what i did. i went back to the house and put on some sweats and went for a run. i weighed 260 pounds at the time and i think i shook the whole neighborhood with each step...boom booom booom booom. but, i could breath because it had been three weeks of clean living. with in one year, i weighed 180 and i have hovered within 20 pounds of that since. every four or five years, i smoke a cig with friends, usually after drinking a lot, and go to bed. wake up with a shitty taste in my mouth and go out and run. i don't miss it at all anymore. don't give up. do something different in its place. run, bike, swim, something physical. pat ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:55:53 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Bagpipes and Visits (NJC) In a message dated 1/27/00 6:27:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, BrianGross@rocketmail.com writes: << "Why are bagpipists always walking when they play?" They're trying to get away from the noise !! >> lol......we have these guys who parade every month or so through town playing bagpipes...and now i undersand why. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:02:41 EST From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: Boden CD (NJC) Non-smoking, maniacal Harper Lou wrote: << You found a jazz bagpipe player? Oh, please, do tell! I didn't think they existed! >> LOL! The name David Lahm gave me was Rufus Harley. I ordered his CD Bagpipe Blues for my son. I'll let you know what I think. Hugs, Ashara www.photon.net/lightnet ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:04:20 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Trouble With The Tiger (was Re: BSN) In a message dated 1/27/00 6:42:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, jason.maloney@virgin.net writes: << but TTT doesn't seem to have the impact on me that I sense it could (or should) have. >> i listen to joni stuff every week, spaced between other music. i work alone and have a three cd changer stereo. sometimes i put in blue and play it with natalie merchant and maybe clapton or m'shell and run all three of them for a week at a time. maybe even three times in a day, five straight days. i do the same with hejira, ti, c&s, hits, misses, ftr, etc. i never do it with ttt. i don't think about it much. it just does not hold my attention. i play it once every four or five months. but i can't do it for days straight. pat ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:32:25 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: BSN (Billie Holiday) NJC I've been playing my 2 Billie Holiday CD's this week in anticipation of the BSN release. I know Joni won't be sounding anything like Billie, but I just wanted to kinda get in the mood since "You're my Thrill" and "Stormy Weather" are on the Billie CD's I have. My first exposure to Billie was in high school when Diana Ross portrayed Billie in "Lady Sings The Blues." (I still like that soundtrack.) My question (and Mark you probably have the most "Billie" knowledge on the list) is how accurate was the movie as to the life of Billie Holiday? Thanks, Jimmy (one more day til vacation YEAH!!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:58:08 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: BSN comments (NJC) > > > The problems arise when we start arguing. You only listen (or read) what the > other person has to say to give yourself ammunition for your own barrages! > > Another thing to remember is that getting along together is not natural, > it's something we've all got to learn. We've got a whole group of different > people here, it's hard enough for two people to get along together. I live > by myself, and I often piss myself off! > > ps: For CHRISTS SAKE just calm down and it is so much better not to make assumptions Alan, nor to tell someone else how they are feeling. i have no need to calm down as I am not uptight at all about the BSN thread. Again, if that is how you chose to interpret what i wrote, I can't help that.Personally, I find the whole thing rather amusing, especially when one is quoted as saying something one didn't! The only mail that came close to annoying me, I'm afraid to say, was this one! Why is it that people cannot banter wiothout others either getting personal, or someone telling us all how to behave and what we really mean by what we write? Oh, and if anyone is in doubt, I would make it very very clear if I was 'pissed' and my flames would be very obvious too!!! I wouldn't pussyfoot about! > and remember your quotes to the BSN > digest: > > "It is better to be hated for what you are > than to be loved for what you are not." > > Alan Lorimer > Hawley Beach > Tasmania - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:06:34 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: joni's voice > she throws so much heart into this new > singing. I've heard her in years past critized as "chilly;" It is surprising anyone would call her chilly! Her voice on NRH and TI IS emotion. Just goes to show how different people are. The one thing I would never agree with is that Joni lacks emotion in the use of her voice. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:13:38 -0500 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Trouble with The Tiger >Tracks such as "Turbulent Indigo" and "Slouching Towards Bethlehem" are >excellent examples of what we are missing out on here. > >Even though I would hesitate to recommend TTT(blasphemy, I know), "Harlem In >Havana" and "Love Puts On A New Face" are still among my favourite Joni >tracks ever. I can't help but think that Joni's experimentation with the VG-8 produced a different dynamic in the production of these songs. When Joni introduced songs like Love's Cries (the original title of Crazy Cries of Love) and Facelift before the Vg-8 I loved them instantly but I was not as crazy about the TTT versions (the danger of tape trees!). Harlem in Havana was written specifically for the VG-8 and I think it works beautifully (with the help of the brilliant Brian Blade). Maybe this is because I became loyal to the acoustic versions or maybe something subtle was lost when translated into the VG-8 language. I don't know, but just as with Dog Eat Dog, the more I listen the more I like. It's Joni!! I don't like to rate which album means more to me. Eliminating one would diminish the whole (for my ears anyway! but I'm a fanatic). Take care, Sue NP: Man from Mars (boo hoo!) ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #54 **************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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