From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #52 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Friday, January 28 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 052 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- NJC ...BUT Genius Content ["Russell Bowden" ] Re: Joni's voice [catman ] Re: OOOPs! (NJC) [catman ] Re: BSN [catman ] Re: "Singer's Songs" -- why Joan will be just fine. [catman ] Re: NJC: Re: Audience Participation [catman ] Re: NJC BSN [catman ] Re: NJC BSN [catman ] Re: NJC BSN ["Kakki" ] Alan's ooops! (NJC) ["Alan Lorimer" ] NO SMOKING ... SC ... NJC [Louis Lynch ] Bel Air Hotel (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] Beaten into Submission ["Russell Bowden" ] Fav. Live Album & Dylan [john low ] RE: BSN [Louis Lynch ] RE: BSN ["Eric Taylor" ] Fwd: Dear Wally ["David Greenspoon" ] Apologies!!! [john low ] RE: BSN (NJC) [Louis Lynch ] Be Bop Deluxe NJC [john low ] broad brush NJC [Roman ] Re: live albums (njc) [Jason Maloney ] Re: Joni Songwriting ["rick novosel" ] Re: Bagpipes and visits (NJC) ["Alan Lorimer" ] RE: Bagpipes and Visits (NJC) [Brian Gross ] Re: BSN [catman ] NJC: No grammar police? ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Saskatoon exhibit news: current and future ["Pitassi, Mary" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #51 [Bounced Message ] Re: Bagpipes and visits (NJC) [Jason Maloney ] Links to web sites (NJC) ["Alan Lorimer" ] Re: NO SMOKING ... SC ... NJC [luvart@snet.net] Re: BSN ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Be Bop Deluxe NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: NJC BSN [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: BSN ["Mark or Travis" ] In Defense of Ella Fitz (NJC) [Joseph Palis ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:48:55 PST From: "Russell Bowden" Subject: NJC ...BUT Genius Content Hey Gang, Today is W A Mozart's 245th birthday and I just wanted to share that with all. Another genius who had a small core of supporters, and was dismissed by the general public in his lifetime. The musical powers of his time recognized his awesome talent and mostly did their best to stifle him. The public found his too dense on just one or two hearings, and went for the more palatable "hits" released by the hacks. Two centuries later; his chief rival, Antonio Salieri, the Michael Jackson of his day, is remembered only as a 2nd rate composer whose jealously and machinations with the big producers kept Mozart from ever being a huge success during his 35 years. Thanks for reading. HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MOZART!!! Love, Russ The light, creation's mind, was everywhere, and all things owned its power. Charles Dickens ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:59:15 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Joni's voice > > > I really disagree Colin. I know her range is not what it was, but I was > never too keen on the high pitched ornamentation that she used to go in > for anyway. > > Her voice has so much character to it now (it's the smoking I'm sure). > It's not the pure, pretty thing that it used to be, it scratches and > pops like her guitar playing, but that's why I love it so much. And > there's no doubt about her pitching - she's always spot on. As I have said many times before, I prefer Joni's voice on DED, NRH, TI and TTT and HOSL than her earlier work. But even in her earlier work, I just can't 'hear' her singing songs such as Carly or Judy G did. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:00:14 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: OOOPs! (NJC) > He won't make that mistake again :-) I had assumed(like I did with harper Lou) that Lyndsay was a 'she'. But of course it is a unisex name.... > > > Alan Lorimer > Hawley Beach > Tasmania > > np: by the light of the black and charcoaled Moon ;-) - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:59:51 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: BSN I don't agree here at all! I love DED NRH and TI, i think they are amongst her best work. Along with HOSL. I guess these, with STAS are my faves. TTT has grown on me too. There are quite a few tracks on NRH such as Slouching, CL, The Windfall, that are just superb. And on TI Job's Sad Song is outstanding, along with SK, ML, and the title track. From DED TTGS and TF are brilliant. All these albums have tracks I don't like but not HOSL or STAS-I like all of them. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:59:21 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: "Singer's Songs" -- why Joan will be just fine. Don Rowe wrote: > Catman, and others, have worried about Joni being able > to handle "singer's songs" on BSN. I think this > betrays an underlying misunderstanding about what that > term actually means. Well it obviously mean something different to you than it does to me. To me a singersd song is something that needs to be sung by a person with a good voice. Like the partner of Niel tennant inThe Pet Shop Boys, who said he had told Neil NOT to record 'somewhere' from WSS because it was a singer's song and in his opion Neil can't song like that. He was right!However, I merely said I was dreading it cos in my imagination, I can't hear it. Hopefully the cd will prove me wrong. > I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:59:45 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: BSN Eric Taylor wrote: > Catman opined: > > << I am dreading this release really. I just can't imagine Joni being able > to sing these songs. I don't see Joni as a singer, rather as a songwriter at > which she excels. maybe years ago she could sing but judging my TTT and > PWWAM she can't anymore. Not that it matters. The last time she sang and > sounded like she could was on WTRF, IMO. To me certainly on NRH TI and TTT > her voice really suits the work. I just can't imagine her singing singers > songs. >> > > I removed NJC from the subject line because this is definitely JC IMO. > Catman has shared this sorry sentiment before & I can't disagree more! Tha's alright but I am not sorry for my opinion! > Like most great singers Joni's voice has become richer & subtler over > the years. When I listen to Judy or Barbra Judy and Barb get mentioned a lotin this relation. Beats me as to why. i don't like either voice. Weedy. > or Joni in their early years the > pure perfection of the singing can actually get on my nerves after a while. > Especially Barbra! I have friends who can't tolerate Joni's early soprano > but get into her later works. To me Joni's voice sounds best on Turbulent > Indigo (Last Chance Lost in particular No this is the one song I really dislike on TI. It grates on me. i always skip it. > ). The silky edge & feeling phrasing > of her recent vocals surpasses Billie Holliday's entire career! & if Comes > Love from PWWAM is any indication, BSN will be up there with Barbra's > Broadway, Carly's Torch & Judy's Carnegie Hall comeback. It just occurred to me you meant garland and not Collins. I like garland's voice. > Since you also don't like Mingus, Catman, perhaps it's not Joni's voice > that you don't like. I suspect you just don't have an ear for great jazz. I don't like Jazz. You know, like Bob and others, i do wish you would not put words in my mouth(or my emails)!!! No where have I said I do not like Joni's voice. if I didn't like her voice, i wouldn't have all her albums!I said that I cannot imagine her being able to sing 'singers' songs. That is NOT the equivalent of saying I don't like her voice. I happen to rteally like a woman named Amanda Lear who sounds like a mannish Dietrich but I still like her voice. > ;~* > E.T. > NP: Last Chance Lost > P.S. As this was playing my partner June stuck her head in the door & > said: *Now those are the songs of her's I like.* BTW, June considers Joni's > pre-Hejira albums *country music.* > > __________________________________________ > NetZero - Defenders of the Free World > Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at > http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:01:04 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC: Re: Audience Participation Here people have taken to going to see The Sound Of Music all dressed up and participating. Like they did with The Rocky Horror Picture Show. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:00:38 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: BSN > > > Hearing Catman say he doesn't like Joni's singing (fie!) Dorothy Rowe says that most trouble in the world is down to people interpreting what they see.I repost what iw rote. Nowhere did I say i did not like Joni's voice. I am dreading this release really. I just can't imagine Joni being able to sing these songs. I don't see Joni as a singer, rather as a songwriter at which she excels. maybe years ago she could sing but judging my TTT and PWWAM she can't anymore. Not that it matters. The last time she sang and sounded like she could was on WTRF, IMO. To me certainly on NRH TI and TTT her voice really suits the work. I just can't imagine her singing singers songs. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:00:43 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC BSN SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/26/00 6:48:54 PM US Central Standard Time, > catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: > > << I just > can't imagine her singing singers songs. >> > > Colin, not that I'm gonna try and change your "set-in-stone" I don't have set in stone opinions! > opinion ;~), but > if you haven't heard her already recorded standards (Summertime, Stormy > Weather, Comes Love) Since the cd isn't out yet, I haven't heard them. > you are doing yourself a great disservice. When she's > not having to focus on communicating her own lyrical imagery, the lady can > flat out sing! > > Maybe if and when you get BSN you can imagine her tackling this material. I ALWAYS buy Joni-I even bought Mingus twice (cos I lost one)and I don't like it!!! > > > Bob > > NP: Aimee Mann, "Driving Sideways" - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:01:11 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC BSN > > > Just you wait, Catman, I think you are going to be very surprised. ;-) Oh dear, have you sent the JMDL Hit Squad after me? > > > Kakki - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:12:18 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: NJC BSN colin, briefly emerging from the bomb shelter, asked: > Oh dear, have you sent the JMDL Hit Squad after me? Twasn't me!! But I still promise that you will be so surprised by the new Joni album - really, really. I don't know what happened, and am not sure it can be completely explained, but her voice is going to amaze you. Maybe she visited that Hawaiian Kahuna with the magical powers again. ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:59:38 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Alan's ooops! (NJC) To: alorimer@tassie.net.au From: webmaster@san.rr.com Re: 220,000 volt shock Dear Sir, I'm afraid we will have to direct this charge back to your account as we don't electrocute girls ;-) Webmaster ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:23:05 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: NO SMOKING ... SC ... NJC Dear List, For the safety of all persons living within a 10 mile radius of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, I insist that all posts with references to Joni's smoking, cigarettes, keyloids, empty, try another, habit, etc., be marked clearly with an "SC" for Smoking Content. Those Non-Joni-Content people on the list may think it's aggravating to have to read an occasional post that doesn't contain a direct reference to Joni Mitchell's artistry. Poor creatures, they, having to scroll and delete and tire their little fingers and strain their puny little eyes on words they don't want to read (For crying out loud, as if they never received spam before!) Trust me, that's a drop in the bucket compared to what my neighbors may have to deal with if one of your posts sets off another nicotine-frenzied craving. Sure, they say exercise when you get an urge. So I chase after a city bus, break the door off, physically throw all the passengers and the driver off, then uproot every one of those ugly seats and toss it out the window. But does the exercise help? NOOOOO! I still want to smoke! Then there was the incident in the company lunch room today. Well, it could have happened -- if she landed just right, the office manager COULD have cut off her own head while trying to peel a grapefruit. OK, so I lost it a little and sliced her head off with a plastic butter knife. But I had a good reason: she BREATHED in my direction. Anyway, point is, I'm having a bit of trouble controlling myself here of late, and the cravings to smoke are less frequent but much more intense. So for God's sake, quit it with the "smoky voice" this and the "American Spirits" that, before more heads start to roll. Just put SC in the message line and nobody will get hurt. Understand? I know where you live, Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:33:52 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Bel Air Hotel (NJC) > All of them seemed slightly perturbed when they learned it was the Joni >group, and not them, who got to hang out with Van at the Bel Air Hotel after >the UCLA shows. It was like "Why didn't *we* think of that?!" Hehehehehe....and we were THERE! That was SO cool! Great review, Kakki! ######################################################### Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ (Website under construction!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:37:28 PST From: "Russell Bowden" Subject: Beaten into Submission Gang, After reading the many posts regarding S&L, and what a boob (my words) I am for not having it...I will take the plunge.. I wish I had the opportunity to view it first, but being TV and VCR-less won't allow THAT anytime soon. Next CD purchase, for sure. Now I want it really bad! Love, Russ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:43:28 +1000 From: john low Subject: Fav. Live Album & Dylan My favourite 'live' album is "Bob Dylan Live 1966: the 'Royal Albert Hall' Concert (The Bootleg Series Vol.4)". I've long taken the view that appreciating Bob Dylan is something akin to experiencing a revelation. There are some who get it and others who don't. If the Dylan 'doubters' are not convinced by this album they never will be. No use sending them to the corner, Les. It just won't work! :-) John (in Sydney). __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://start.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:45:51 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: BSN Catman, Sorry if you thought I misquoted you. Actually, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. In your post, you said "I just can't imagine Joni being able to sing these songs. I don't see Joni as a singer, rather as a songwriter at which she excels." Regardless of what Dorothy Rowe says about misinterpretation, in the music business, when you say someone is "not a singer," it means that you don't like to hear the person sing. To me, your comment that she's UNABLE (see below) to sing is a stronger put-down than saying you don't like her voice. For example, I would choose having simultaneous enemas and root canals over having to listen to an entire Gloria Estefan recording -- I just don't like the sound of her voice. But she is ABLE to sing. And, in her maturing years, Joni is ABLE to sing -- better than ever, in fact. She's all that, and a free dessert sundae. I know of a few people who don't particularly care for Joni's stylization. But her voice is beautiful, her pitch is excellent, and her articulation unmatched in popular music today. Better to say you don't like Joni's voice of late than to say she can't sing. She's made it to the top of the modern music heap, singing all the way. So, she IS indeed able to sing. And, as a professional singer, I think she's qualified to take a crack at "singer's songs." I love her take on "Comes Love." It's absolutely the best I've ever heard. All discussion aside, Catman, I hope you are totally thrilled by the new album -- and that it will be the most pleasant of surprises for you. Harper Lou Nowhere did I say i did not like Joni's voice. I am dreading this release really. I just can't imagine Joni being able to sing these songs. I don't see Joni as a singer, rather as a songwriter at which she excels. maybe years ago she could sing but judging my TTT and PWWAM she can't anymore. Not that it matters. The last time she sang and sounded like she could was on WTRF, IMO. To me certainly on NRH TI and TTT her voice really suits the work. I just can't imagine her singing singers songs. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:39:45 -0800 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: RE: BSN Harper Lou admits: <<....I don't think Taming the Tiger contains Joni's best writing. In fact, "Face Lift" and "Stay in Touch" sound sort of rambling to me, not nearly as well crafted as most of her other songs, which are poetic masterpieces. >> Critics called Hejira's vocals & lyrics *rambling* when it was released. 20 years later Hejira is hailed as Joni's masterpiece. *We're burning brightly / Clinging like fire to fuel / I'm grinning like a fool* is as great as anything Joni has penned. Another line I love from TTT: *Every disc / A poker chip / Every song / Just a one-night stand / Formula music / Girlie guile! / Genuine junkfood / For juveniles!* HOW TRUE (& creatively stated) of today's top 40! E.T. __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:47:53 PST From: "David Greenspoon" Subject: Fwd: Dear Wally I just thought i'd share with the group the E-mail I sent to Wally: Dear Wally, Although I never got to know you at all, I felt I did through the articles you wrote in the "Word from Wally". I was obvioulsy very saddened by the article you wrote on the 25th. Not just because you won't be running JM.com but more importantly to here the treatments aren't working. I can't begin to describe how your website changed my life. The site you created changed me from a casual Joni fancier to a hard core Joni Lover. So I would like to take this moment to thank you Wally, for bringing Joni into my thought life in ways I couldn't before imagine. I hope and pray that you get better Wally. Forever Yours David ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:53:26 +1000 From: john low Subject: Apologies!!! My first post for a while and I go and make a boo boo! My sincere apologies to Joni-onlys for not attaching NJC to "Fav. Album & Dylan". Fortunately it was a brief post so I won't have wasted too much of your time. Cheers, John (in Sydney). __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://start.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:02:11 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: BSN (NJC) OK, Eric, OK. I'll take back my comment about the "rambling" on Taming the Tiger. Maybe I'm just not used to the new form she was using. But, I still don't think Taming the Tiger is the "greatest thing she ever penned." Oh my, what about the truly superb writing on "Cotton Avenue" and "Blue" and "Cherokee Louise" and "Urge for Going"? Change it to I PREFER some of her earlier imagery and I think that she has written some real masterpieces in the past. Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:09:5 +1000 From: john low Subject: Be Bop Deluxe NJC A little while ago Bob M. mentioned Be Bop Deluxe in his 'live' album choices. Their base player, Charlie Tumahai, played in a number of Australian bands in the late 1960s and early 1970s before going to England and joining Be Bop Deluxe. He returned to his birthplace, New Zealand, in 1985 and joined the great Kiwi rock/reggae band Herbs as base player and lead singer. Tragically, he died of a heart attack on 21 December 1995 while working as a volunteer at the Auckland District Court assisting young Maori defendants and their families. Charlie Tumahai had a great, soulful singing voice, described by one critic as "majestic" and "brimming with passion and strength of purpose". As a singer he played second fiddle to Bill Nelson in Be Bop Deluxe but his voice is heard to great effect on a number of early Australian recordings and on the albums released by Herbs since 1985. Needless to say, I am a great fan! I just thought Bob (and any others who remember Be Bop Deluxe) might be interested in this. John (in Sydney). __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://start.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:38:04 +0100 From: Roman Subject: broad brush NJC Fred wrote: >Roman, you're making your point with too broad a brush: >It's true that the rich, royalty, and the church *paid for* a lot of >classical music but that doesn't in any way mean that that's who the >music >was written for. >You can't listen to the achingly beautiful 2nd movement of Beethoven's >7th >symphony and tell me that it was written for rich people, or that it >doesn't express some of the most profound human longing ever encoded into >music. What about Beethoven's iconoclastic late string quartets? >Frankly, to dismiss the entire era of Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, >Beethoven, >Mendelssohn, Brahms, Chopin, Schubert, Schumann, etc. in this manner is >dangerously indiscriminate. Thanks Fred, you are right. I know I'm taking an extremist position. I am aware of some inherent hypocrisy and danger in my sweepingly flushing three hundred years of music down the toilet just for the sake of political idealism. I felt I'd gone on for long enough in the first post, but I had wanted to mention that I'd be interested to hear some of the stuff (if any) that these mid-period classical composers kept for themselves. ('lost' works and rejected projects). But think about this : A few years ago, certain sources were recommending that American tourists visiting Germany stay clear of the cheaper hotels. Why? Because these cheaper hotels hadn't bought new furniture in a long time. Even though their rooms were beautifully furnished, and you could get a fabulous night's sleep in their beautiful old beds, because those old mattresses were so well made with real old-fashioned German craftsmanship, you might not sleep so well once you stopped to think what those comfortable old mattresses were stuffed with. And that's why I have a problem with the older classical music - It's what it's stuffed with. I'm not mad at the composers - I'm mad at the world they lived in. The composers accepted commissions and payment for their work in the knowledge that their work could only be transmitted through highly limited channels to only a priveleged elite. This is in marked contrast to writers of the period, who since the invention of the printing press knew that their work could be not just transmitted, but actually DISTRIBUTED to a much wider audience. Part of the zeal of a writer is in knowing he can share his creation with a potentially universal audience. Music however could not be distributed in society until the invention of radio and recording equipment. Pre-1850 composers seriously weren't expecting anybody but the rich to ever hear their compositions. In 1819, a certain Dr Philimore, British member of parliament, warned the House of Commons that 'radical' newspapers "inflame (working people's) passions and awaken their selfishness, contrasting their present condition with what they contend to be their future condition - a condition incompatible with human nature, and with those immutable laws which Providence has established for the regulation of civil society." That was the prevailing philosophy of the ruling classes. They didn't WANT you to have a share of the finer things in life Fred. That would have been just too, too "selfish" of you to want to sit in on a Beethoven recital. As radio and sound recording was unthinkable before its actual invention, the early classical composers may well have composed with profound human longing in their hearts, but they also knew damn well that their patrons were only too keen to ensure that the "immutable laws of Providence" would forever keep the low-born from elevating themselves to a position worthy of a seat in the concert-halls. It's the stuffing you see. The huge ratio of those who weren't hearing that beautiful music, compared to the infinitessimal few who were. The many who died while the few were having fun. Sure I'm hypocritical - I wear clothes that were made in third-world sweatshops. I drink instant coffee and eat fruit harvested by some arthritic old woman or seven year old child who's only getting paid 50 cents a day for their work. But I kind of need the clothes, and I'm sort of hooked on coffee, and fruit's good for me. But classical music CDs I can easily get along without, with no physical side-effects. And two hundred years agao, I'd have HAD to get along without it. So that's why I can just shove it. I ought to end the thread now, my Joni content is habitually low so I know I don't deserve this much NJC bandwith, but we can go to private mail if you like. Cheers, tube ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 22:50:50 +0000 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: live albums (njc) I just *knew* I'd forget at least one great Live album...and it turns out I forgot two! ;o) Evian, thanks for reminding me of Stop Making Sense. I can't believe that slipped my mind...I only bought the re-issued version (with extra tracks) a short while back, and listened to it then. Doh! Also, the Page & Plant : No Quarter....Unledded that has been mentioned. What a stonking album that is! It mixes live recordings with new studio-based material, but the effect is spellbinding and easily my favourite Plant/Page/Led Zep CD. Thank you for reminding me! :-) Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:00:35 -0800 From: "rick novosel" Subject: Re: Joni Songwriting Don wrote: > Okay heretics -- here's a word-UP: Joni Mitchell has > forgotten more about songwriting than you or I will > ever know. This was never in question, Don. I do appreciate the "craftsmanship" (Am I going to catch it for using that word?) of much of Joni"s latest work and would argue with anyone that her use of the language is almost unequalled in modern songwriting. And we all know she is fearless when it comes to doing whatever she feels like doing in the studio. But here's the but: Nothing comes close IMHO to the feelings she stirred inside me when she sang phrases like "I'll lock the vagrant winter out and bolt my wanderin' in" with her youthful and achingly beautiful soprano. As someone else posted, maybe it's the first exposure to Joni (or anyone) that will always be the most meaningful. I think what this all means is that I seem to be someone who appreciates music based more on my feelings than on analysis. Rick, reeling from an atypical bout of self-analysis;) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:06:35 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: Bagpipes and visits (NJC) I don't know about Jazz and Bagpipes, but they work for Rock and Roll. I remember watching "Countdown" in the mid 1970s and seeing Bon Scott playing Bagpipes on "It's a long way to the top" while riding with the rest of ACDC on the back of a truck going through the streets of Melbourne :-) Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Tasmania ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:25:26 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Gross Subject: RE: Bagpipes and Visits (NJC) - --- Louis Lynch wrote: > Some whistlers I know can get the half-pitch notes fairly well by closing > half a hole, but I've never known a bagpipist who could. But, then again, > whenever I see a bagpipe, I usually keep my distance. > > Like the saying goes, "Welcome to heaven, here's your harp. Welcome to > hell, here's your bagpipe." Sounds like an old joke that asks: "Why are bagpipists always walking when they play?" They're trying to get away from the noise !! Later, Brian ===== "No paper thin walls, no folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:35:47 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: BSN Louis Lynch wrote: > Catman, > > Sorry if you thought I misquoted you. Actually, I was giving you the > benefit of the doubt. > > In your post, you said "I just can't imagine Joni being able > to sing these songs. I don't see Joni as a singer, rather as a > songwriter at which she excels." > > Regardless of what Dorothy Rowe says about misinterpretation, in the music > business, when you say someone is "not a singer," it means that you don't > like to hear the person sing. Actually, Ms Rowe is right on the button. Because you misinterpreted what I wrote, period. You gave it the meaning you are used to, even though the rest of my mail makes it clear i do not dislike her voice. Come on, who would buy 15 or more albums by a person whose voice they did not like? Why would they even be a fan? > > > To me, your comment that she's UNABLE (see below) to sing is a stronger > put-down than saying you don't like her voice. Well I didn't say I don't like her voice, nor can I help you construing what iw rote as a put down. I have listened to PWWAM-and to me her voice sounds shot. Listening to her voice on the albums I love, NRH and TI it still doesn't sound like someone who can really sing to me. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:12:24 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: NJC: No grammar police? Wow, I can't believe I got away with this mistake yesterday in a post: > ceased by fear I was of course "seized by fear". No one caught it!! All of you'se be nappin. :-D All the best, Jim ** Get well, Wally ** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:32:12 -0600 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: Saskatoon exhibit news: current and future On the recommendation of SMEDB@aol.com (Steve?), I e-mailed Natalie Kallio in Communications at the Mendel Gallery, where Joni's exhibit will be taking place, this morning. I explained that I was interested in attending the exhibit, as were other members of the Joni Mitchell Discussion List, and that I wanted further information about dates, especially opening night. Here is her response: ">Dear Mary, > >The date of the opening is set for June 30th, but exact details are not yet >settled. I will keep your name and email on file with the exhibition, but >if you would like to email me back in the spring, I will be able to provide >more information and details. Thank you so much for your initiative; the >outpouring of interest has been exhilirating and enthusiastic! I do hope to >see you in June, and keep in touch! > >Natalie Kallio >Communications >Mendel Art Gallery" So that's the most up-to-date information we have at present: pretty much what we knew before. However, I then wrote back to Ms. Kallio, explaining a little more about the nature and functions of the JMDL, and asked if I could post the above reply. She responded with great enthusiasm, stating that she'd be happy to keep in contact with me and/or the list over the months to come, and requesting the JMDL website address, as she herself is "certainly interested in all news, information, and discussion surrounding Joni" (!) The long and the short of it: I expect to hear from Natalie in the future, and will immediately post any news she transmits to the list. In the meantime, it's great to know we've made a new contact, and will receive news on the exhibit as it breaks! Thanks again for your reply, Steve. Waiting for June, Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:40:40 +0000 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Trouble With The Tiger (was Re: BSN) I thought the change of subject line was appropriate, as this post of mine is more about TTT than BSN.... Louis Lynch wrote: > OK, Eric, OK. > > I'll take back my comment about the "rambling" on Taming the Tiger. Maybe > I'm just not used to the new form she was using. I don't know what it is about TTT that makes it difficult to love in anywhere near the same way as just about any other Joni studio album I have heard (which is all of them bar FTR and Mingus). I devote my full attention and concentration to music when I listen to it, and the phenomenon of "drifting off" while my chosen CD is playing is extremely rare. Which makes the fact that just about every time I try to settle down to TTT, I find my mind wandering and interest waning by about track 7 so surprising. It's not something I'm accustomed to, certainly not with Joni's music. You could explain it away maybe once or twice, but every time? So, is it something to do with track sequencing? I haven't tried an alternative running order, but maybe I should. Why does it seem to me that so many of the tracks sound remarkably alike, if not in melody or subject matter, then ambience or tone? It's one thing creating an overall mood that ebbs and flows (Hejira), or a stunning sequential narrative (NRH), but TTT doesn't seem to have the impact on me that I sense it could (or should) have. It must sound odd voicing these thoughts so long after TTT's release, but I was hoping that time would bring the album closer to me. I still *like* it, of course, it's Joni after all, but I feel weird not loving it more. I'd also like to be able to stay awake for the entire duration of the album! Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:48:21 -0500 From: waytoblu@mindspring.com Subject: Re: broad brush NJC >But classical music CDs I can easily get along without, with no physical >side-effects. And two hundred years agao, I'd have HAD to get along >without it. So that's why I can just shove it. > This does not make any sense to me at all. I know there are people today who live on the street and do not own cd players and cannot buy Joni Mitchell cd's but that's not going to stop me from listening to Joni or any other artist for that matter. I think it is extremely presumptious to attribute the source of inspiration to composers who lived 200 years ago. And don't you think that Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, whoever would have wanted everyone, regardless of there social caste, to hear their music. I know I do. As a musician and songwriter, I write songs for myself though they are inspired in a major way by people I have come to know and love, stories I have read, experiences I have lived through...SImply though, I write because I have to, because I don't know how else to live and I have an innate desire for everybody to hear my songs because I love them and I am driven to write, sing, perform. If I was rich and had alot of money, I could build my own studio or buy hours of recording time and sit for days and record all my songs( of which I have over a hundred) but instead, I work 40 hours a week, struggle to make ends meet, and promote my music when I can and keep hoping that someday or somewhere, someone who does have some money/clout/power will take an interest in what I am doing and maybe I will be able to realize my dreams and create something that is beautiful that will be around long after I am gone. You see, nothing is any different now than it was 200 years ago. Money is power...why do you think so much crap is on the radio and television and so much good music is left unknown and unheard. To have this attitude...to me it seems just as bad as the people whom you hold in such contempt. If you really don't like classical music then don't listen to it. But if you like any music, go listen to it now and love it because music withstands and perseveres through all times and cannot be and should not be kept in a box for only a chosen few. "Beauty is truth, truth beauty,-- that is all Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know." John Keats-"Ode to a Grecian Urn" Victor http://www.mindspring.com/~waytoblu/Tangled.html NP: Joni-For the Roses( in my room):Bowie -Changes1 in the living room ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:44:01 -0800 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: NJC: No grammar police? >Wow, I can't believe I got away with this mistake yesterday in a post: > >> ceased by fear >I was of course "seized by fear". No one caught it!! All of you'se be >nappin. :-D >All the best, >Jim ** Get well, Wally ** When i saw 'ceased by fear' i thought you had died. - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:46:15 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #51 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:14:39 -0600 From: dave fairall / beth miller I'm new to the Digest but a lifelong Joni fan. Saw her at Yasgur's farm, (Day in the Garden), and again at College Park Md. last year, (couldn't sit through Dylan after hearing Joni and her great band) and I'll never be the same.....truly magical. Ordered one of Sue McNamara's pics for my brother's Christmas gift last year, and it's proudly displayed on his wall. Thanks Sue. Persuing the various posts, I'd like to chime in to say that as a musician, I too think S+L is her greatest accomplishment, although the entire body of work is just amazing. In particular the work of Jaco, Brecker and Metheny is very special on that record, (a desert island album) and I'd love to see her collaborate with Michael and Pat again, (maybe even some kind of tribute to Jaco). I once read an interview w/ Robben Ford who was quoted as saying that of all the musicians he's worked with in the past, Joni is the one he would love to record with again.... that would also be way cool.....Robben may be the best blues guitarist on the planet. Thanks, Dave Fairall Baltimore MD ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:06:06 +0000 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Bagpipes and visits (NJC) Alan Lorimer wrote: > I don't know about Jazz and Bagpipes, but they work for Rock and Roll. Ah yes, Rod Stewart and Big Country..... :-) Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:02:09 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Links to web sites (NJC) I have placed a link to Jackie Leve's fabulous "Killer Butterfly" website on my own website. If there's any Joni Fans out there who don't have links to their own web sites from the JMDL site (or even those who already do), wish to contact me, so I can link to your web site, I would greatly appreciate it :-) http://jonimitchell.freeservers.com/ Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Tasmania ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:38:58 -0500 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: NO SMOKING ... SC ... NJC At 01:23 PM 1/27/00 -0800, Louis Lynch wrote: (For crying out loud, as if they never received spam >before!) > I just wish I'd get some mustard with my spam. ;-) hang in there, Harper Lou! Heather ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:48:47 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: BSN The silky edge & feeling phrasing > of her recent vocals surpasses Billie Holliday's entire career! I suspect you just don't have an ear for great jazz. Wellllll, Eric.....I know this was just your humble (I assume) opinion.....however.....in my maybe not so humble opinion, judging from the above statement, you have no room to talk. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:08:44 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Be Bop Deluxe NJC In a message dated 1/27/00 4:09:37 PM US Central Standard Time, johncb@start.com.au writes: << I just thought Bob (and any others who remember Be Bop Deluxe) might be interested in this. >> Thanks, John, I DID indeed find it very interesting, and it was all new information to me. I think the thing I liked about that BeBop Deluxe album was that I wasn't familiar with any of the studio versions of those songs when I heard the live record, I remember hearing the guitar on the song "English Landscape" (not the correct title) and being blown away. Bob NP: Sonny Rollins, "Sonnymoon For Two" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:21:19 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC BSN In a message dated 1/27/00 3:00:56 PM US Central Standard Time, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: << if you haven't heard her already recorded standards (Summertime, Stormy > Weather, Comes Love) Since the cd isn't out yet, I haven't heard them. >> Let's see..."Summertime" was on Gershwin's World, out in 98, as was her even better live version released on the Tape & CD trees, Stormy Weather was also included on the Tape Tree Corel Center show as a bonus. Comes Love is on several of the 98 Tapes I think, and also on PWWAM. Your diet consists only of store-bought official-label-released Joni...man, that's the problem - you're only getting about half the picture! :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:55:09 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: BSN > > I agree totally Fred. I think her coming out with these songs now shows us that > even she regrets to some degree her change in song writing genre. I think this is a pretty rash supposition to make just because she chose to reinterpret 2 of her older songs to go on a covers album. She chose a story or theme for BSN and these 2 songs happened to be part of it. I can't imagine that Joni 'regrets' the direction her music has taken in any phase of her career. She loves > those old songs more than she has let on, but just didn't want it to seem like > she was "leaning" on her early successes. IMHO She HAS grown as an artist, and > that's a good thing. And who knows? Maybe she will yet write another BSN or > Circle Game or Urge for Going. And to me the songs you mention here are mere primers compared to what she has done on her last 3 albums. I could cite examples. I've done that before but it wouldn't change anybody's mind. But I can't resist at least one lyrical example: He said 'I wish you were with me here The leaves are electric They burn on the river bank Countless, heatless flames' I said 'Well send me some pictures then And I'll paint pyrotechnic Explosions of your Autumn Til we meet again.... I don't think she could have written something like that even 20 years ago. Certainly not when she started. It doesn't get any better than that. I don't agree that standards are easy to sing. They're familiar to a lot of people but some of them have very complex melodic lines and it is *not* easy to sing them *well*. 'Stormy Weather' comes to mind. Most Harold Arlen tunes have very sophisticated, unique melodic lines. Not just any old singer can pull them off. A pretty voice does not necessarily make a great singer. I do think that intonation & enunciation are very important but, again, that isn't all there is to it either. Phrasing & a strong rhythmic sense play a part but there's still more to it. Joni had a pretty voice at one time. Its tones have deepened & darkened and maybe even coarsened a little as time has gone on. She has always had good intonation, enunciation, phrasing & rhythic sense. As she has practiced her art over the years these skills have only sharpened and gotten better. But I think the most important element to Joni's singing is her ability to tell only the absolute truth as she perceives it and to communicate that truth in a way that her listeners instantly recognize & empathize with. That is her gift and like all of the skills she has applied to it, that gift has only been enhanced, deepened & magnified with time. She now feels confident & free enough to use her singing talents to interpret material she has always loved in a way she has always wanted to do it. And she now has all those years and everything she has learned both in the art of singing and the living of her life to bring to this endeavor. I expect it to be no less than breathtaking. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it does not take a smooth, silky, pretty voice to interpret these songs. It does, however, take a lot of skill and artistry to interpret them well. Joni has that in spades. So I really hope that Colin will be surprised when he hears BSN. Pretty doesn not equal beautiful. You couldn't call voices like Janis Joplin's, Louis Armstrong's, Marianne Faithful's or even Billie Holiday's pretty. Oh, but what beautiful music they made/make with those voices! Of course there are a few lucky ones who did/do have pretty voices and all the rest of those qualities as well: Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaughn, Judy Garland, Nat King Cole, Johnny Hartmann, Barbra Streisand (yes, she does belong there, dammit!) and most recently k d lang. Aren't they the luckiest singers in the world? Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:27:58 +0800 (JST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: In Defense of Ella Fitz (NJC) There are several friends of mine whose favorite singers are those who are inch-perfect in their singing; with a perfect pitch. I noticed that I gravitate towards singers who may not have "rounded" notes or perfect notes because I think its the inherent "imperfections" that I consider qualities for good singing. I heard people say Billie sounds like a drunken old man, Rickie Lee Jones like she had bad colds, Marianne Faithfull like she has severe sore throat problems. I think its the "innate imperfections" that make them unique as singers. The first time I heard Joni, I didn't think much of her singing. Same with Carole King. But then you remember them as conveyors of feelings and soul rather than "straight" singers. But I don't know why my fascination for Ella Fitzgerald knows no bounds. I am endlessly fascinated by her ability to use her voice as an instrument, and despite some critics' claim, I consider her as a supreme artist when singing ballads. To me, she has perfect diction and was unfairly dismissed by other people because of the perfection in her song delivery; as if its a sin; and as if singing the way she does takes away the humanity of a song. (Although I have to admit that much as I like her 1950s output, its her late 60s to 80s output that I like best, where her voice was considered beyond her prime). Just my 2 cents. Joseph ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:59:04 -0800 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: BSN NJC Mark exposed the sheer snobbery of my sweeping statement: <<< The silky edge & feeling phrasing of her recent vocals surpasses Billie Holiday's entire career! >>> in my chastisement of Catman <<<....I suspect you just don't have an ear for great jazz. >>> Responding: << Wellllll, Eric.....I know this was just your humble (I assume) opinion.....however.....in my maybe not so humble opinion, judging from the above statement, you have no room to talk. >> WOW all those > << >> <<< >>>'s can get complicated! You're right Mark. That was a pretty pompous declaration on my part. However I did include IMO & not IMHO..... Personally I have tried to get into Billie's singing numerous times since 1976 & I just don't get it. I bought *Lady In Satin* last month to prepare for BSN & couldn't even make it halfway through the remastered CD. Perhaps it's a case of bad recording. The first time I heard Edith Piaf, Judy Garland, Lena Horne, Barbra Streisand, Buffy Sainte-Marie & Joni Mitchell I immediately fell in love with their voices & artistry. I really try to be musically correct (boasting a listening taste from Amadeus to ZZTop) but must admit that I still can't quite grasp the vocal appeal of icons like Billie Holiday & Bob Dylan.... Oh oh, my my, am I asking for it now?! ;~& E.T. NP: Lady In Satin __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #52 **************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?