From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #21 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Wednesday, January 12 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 021 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: NJC the year 2000 - hype and BSN ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: NJC: Melissa story in Rolling Stone mag [catman ] Re: Both Sides, Now doesn't come cheap! NJC [Don Rowe ] Re: The List (NJC) [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: population NJC [Randy Remote ] Re: Both Sides, Now doesn't come cheap (NJC) [michael w yarbrough ] Re: Joni I WOULD pay $44 to have ... [Brian Gross ] Re: Both Sides, Now doesn't come cheap! NJC [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Both Sides, Now doesn't come cheap! NJC ["Kakki" ] RE: Both Sides, Now doesn't come cheap! NJC [Chris Marshall ] Fred Simon gig alert [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Good News (for Colin) BAD NEWS (for jmdl) [waytoblu@mindspring.com] Re: Joni I WOULD pay $44 to have ...VLJC ["Kakki" ] Re: Good News (for Colin) BAD NEWS (for jmdl) NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Joni I WOULD pay $44 to have ... [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:29:07 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: NJC the year 2000 - hype and BSN >(the Rev) Vince, taking a second collection on Sunday for BSN I knew it! I KNEW they weren't REALLY taking that second collection for some altruistic, charity thing - just make sure you have a BSN night and invite the whole parish out. It's the "Keep-the-Rev-sane" collection! Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:31:59 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: CSN - Crosby Sperm Needed ? (NJC) Kakki wrote: >If it is a red herring, all concerned have certainly gone to >elaborate >lengths to fool people. There is an in-depth story in >Rolling Stone and >the front cover photograph is something else - an >exquisitely posed family >portrait of Julie, Melissa, the babies >Bailey and Becket, Croz and his >wife Jan that looks like a >Raphaelite/Renaissance-era painting. Oh, man - maybe it's some kind of menage-a-quatre thing they've got going there. Maybe they're going to reinvent the commune! Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:37:47 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: BSN pre-release order Kakki wrote: >You may have been offlist when some of us reported about the Special > >Edition BSN being released Feb. 8th. <> Robbie Cavolina made >some >mention of more surprises in it that he would not disclose to >us. Oh hell. I can't resist the lure of "surprises". I hate knowing what's inside a present until I've opened it. I've got to get this thing - it's going to end up being closer to $70 Canadian and I'm flat broke. Does it mean I'm going to have to sell one of my kids? Could I possibly get that kind of money for my dead-beat husband? (I might as well just start calling him "Fang" and get the Phyllis Diller "do" now, the way I insult the guy!) Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:39:20 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC: Melissa story in Rolling Stone mag > One-year-old Beckett, meanwhile, > is being fed by a nanny. This prqactice has always bugged me. Have never understood why someone wants a child and then pays someone else to look after it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:42:58 -0500 (EST) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: The NJC Solution (NJC) Recently, I think it was Vince, said in effect, that there was no sollution that could please everyone. I think I may have found one that ought to do just that. Not only should it please everyone, but it will eliminate the need for all tags, NJC or otherwise, AND it should put to rest, once and for all, this reoccuring discussion about the list itself. Sounds good so far, yes? The following proposal is, in fact, so good that I'm going to save it, so that I can repost every time this discussion re-appears (as it always does) should it not be adopted. Currently there are three lists with three addresses. The main list, the Joni-only list, and a rarely used sublist that is supposed to be for tape trading/discussing. I never understood the premise of that sublist as trading/discussing Joni music could not possibly be more on topic. Leave it to this list to create a seperate sublist for on topic discussion! My proposal is do away with that sublist first of all, or not, it really makes no difference. What we need to use to our advantage are the two addresses. Use one for Joni only, and one for all NJC. Let those who like NJC be subscribed to BOTH lists. Those who like Joni only wouyld subscribe to one list. And if there is anyone nuts enought to want just the NJC, they could subscribe to just that list. HOW THIS WOULD WORK If you were on the Joni only list, whether digest or real time, nothing would change. You would have one list to read and one address to post to. They don't even have to know about this change! If you like NJC, you would be subscribed to BOTH lists. When posting a new thread, you would simply decide which list to send it to, rather than tagging. When responding to an existing post you could just hit reply and it would automatically go to the correct list, by address. In those "grey instances" (like the Joni Tribute Show or gathering announcements) you could simply cc to both lists. If you are on digest, as most are, now you would get two digests, one all JC and one all NJC. (people in real time are doing this seperation already with filters) If you are on real time you would notice no change at all in how you recieve your mail. IF YOU ARE USING YOUR FILTERS to seperate the NJC from the JC, you could set up your filters to continue this practice by which address the post comes from, rather than by the tag, as you are doing now. WHAT about all this resubscribing crap? Those currently on the Joni-only list would stay there. That would become the address for posting all things Joni. Those on the main list, would stay there and that would become the address for posting all NJC. Then Les would take everyone on the main list and subscibe them to the Joni list as well. No one would have to do anything except Les. This is a win, win, win, win proposition. I can see no drawbacks at all, unlike what we currently have. If anyone sees any drawbacks, please point them out to me. If, on the other hand, you like this proposal, then I urge you to contact Les and tell him so. please think about it, gdave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:43:44 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: NJC the year 2000 - hype and BSN >Vince wrote: > >I suggest that we set aside 8-10 February with some ICQ or Instant >Messenger chat room and we all open and play our BSNs together, kind >of >like my buddies and I did in 1968 when in real not cyber life we >all >ceremoniously opened and played our White Albums Helen replied: >Cool idea! I'd love a "real-time" chat with everyone! Although >given my >recent postings, maybe the opportunity to think before I >speak with normal >email might better suit me! I try not to think before I post or I'd never do it! And: >Just love those knee-jerk reactions! So do I, but I'm an Aries, and we're supposed to be famous for shooting our mouths off and saying things that aren't very appropriate but, on the other hand, we don't bear grudges, so once we've said it, it's over. >Of course you realise that the time-zones are going to make for some >interesting chat! I have bouts of insomnia so if one happens at that time, it could work for me. I haven't actually had one for a while, so if I get working on the "how-the-hell-am-I-gonna-pay-the-bills-this-month" scenario NOW, I could be truly wired by then! Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:48:28 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: NJC: Melissa story in Rolling Stone mag Patti quotes the Rollingston article: >It was beginning to get ridiculous: the speculation . . . the rumors >. . . >the jokes. For three long years, Melissa Etheridge and her >partner, >filmmaker Julie Cypher, were asked the same question over >and over: Who is >the biological father of your two children? Once it >was a tad amusing to >the couple. If it was a nameless sperm in a test-tube, could she even answer the question? >Then, with the release of Etheridge’s album Breakdown, her first in >more than three years, the badgering intensified. >On a recent Late Show appearance, David Letterman had a go. "Now, >I’m no >geneticist, but in some regard there must have been Daddy >somewhere," he >said, leaning forward. "Who’s Daddy?" >"Well, you were on the short list for a minute," Etheridge hedged. >Letterman pressed on. "Just tell me, who’s Daddy? Who’s Daddy?" >Etheridge threw up her hands in mock exasperation. "All right," she > >said,"it’s Dan Quayle." That was well-said and actually quite classy and it's nice to see Letterman get his come-uppance. >From: pattihaskins@mindspring.com >Reply-To: pattihaskins@mindspring.com >To: "JMDL" >Subject: NJC: Melissa story in Rolling Stone mag >Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:15:14 -0600 > >Here' s the Rolling Stone article and link: >http://rollingstone.tunes.com/sections/magazine/text/excerpt833.asp?afl=rsn > >Melissa’s Secret >The name of the father and the making of a new American family > >By Jancee Dunn > >It was beginning to get ridiculous: the speculation . . . the rumors . . . >the jokes. For three long years, Melissa Etheridge and her partner, >filmmaker Julie Cypher, were asked the same question over and over: Who is >the biological father of your two children? Once it was a tad amusing to >the >couple. Then, with the release of Etheridge’s album Breakdown, her first in >more than three years, the badgering intensified. > >On a recent Late Show appearance, David Letterman had a go. "Now, I’m no >geneticist, but in some regard there must have been Daddy somewhere," he >said, leaning forward. "Who’s Daddy?" > >"Well, you were on the short list for a minute," Etheridge hedged. > >Letterman pressed on. "Just tell me, who’s Daddy? Who’s Daddy?" > >Etheridge threw up her hands in mock exasperation. "All right," she said, >"it’s Dan Quayle." > >Rumors flew on the Internet. Was it Brad Pitt? He’s a friend of theirs. >Bruce Springsteen? Etheridge jumped onstage with him at a New Jersey show. >Maybe he’s the dad! How about Tom Hanks? Is it Tom Hanks? > >Cut to a Time magazine interview. "Did Brad Pitt father your children?" >columnist Joel Stein wanted to know. "It is a man, right? . . . And he’s >famous?" Yes, she said. "So it’s Brad Pitt. . . . Come on, it’s better if >it >’s Brad Pitt. It’s good for his career, for your career." > >"We just got so tired of this secret," says Etheridge, who didn’t even tell >the rest of her family the father’s name until the couple’s first child, >Bailey, was a year old. "It wears you out. And keeping this big secret goes >against how we are choosing to live our lives: very openly." There was also >the consideration that Bailey, now three, will attend school soon: "I >didn’t >want my kids to ever be in a position where someone could come up to them >and know something they don’t." > >"Because Bailey was starting to ask," adds Cypher. "And you know what else? >It was becoming a joke, more than it should have been." > >Thus, after much discussion, the two have decided to reveal the identity of >their two children’s biological father. It is a man whose name, it is safe >to say, has never come up on a short list of candidates. As you can see, it >is – of all people – David Crosby, founding member of the Byrds and Crosby, >Stills and Nash, a rock & roll bad boy with a four-decade-long career, a >wife of twelve years and a thirty-five-year-old son. > >Since this will require some time, let’s settle in at the couple’s spacious >home in Los Angeles, a 1926 Tudor filled with sunlight, honey-colored wood >and antiques. It is a very different home from the one that the pair lived >in four years ago, with its careful display of antique match strikers and >its Louvre-size collection of dog photos. Now, the effluvia of children are >everywhere: half-drunk glasses of juice in plastic cups, Elmo in various >permutations, milk and bananas on the grocery list. The match strikers have >been relegated to a glass case. As for the dog photos, "Bruce Springsteen >once gave me the best parenting advice," says Cypher. "He said, ‘You know, >all of a sudden, your dogs are just gonna be dogs.’" > >Cypher and Etheridge give a tour of their abode, pointing out a black baby >grand piano in the sitting room before moving on to the toy-strewn family >room. "This is the room we live in," says Cypher. Against one wall is a row >of seats from the community theater in Etheridge’s hometown of Leavenworth, >Kansas, that the establishment gave to her after she made a donation to >help >restore it. The two point out a Maori school desk they found in New >Zealand. >"We love, love, love to antique-shop," says Cypher. > >Bailey races into the room. "Look at me!" she cries, hurling herself onto a >beanbag chair. "I’m just a laughing frog!" One-year-old Beckett, meanwhile, >is being fed by a nanny. The children, whose faces are sweet and apple >cheek >ed, could be lifted out of a Victorian postcard. "Beckett looks just like >David, doesn’t he?" says Etheridge, looking on happily, a rock-chick mom in >a blue corduroy jacket with silver studs. She produces Crosby’s >autobiography, which contains a baby photo from back in the day. The >resemblance is eerie. > >The pair continues the tour upstairs. "Here’s the bedroom," says Etheridge. >Sun streams onto the floral carpet, a pair of cats sleeps in a chair. "Look >at this!" Etheridge says, grabbing a remote control. With a barely >perceptible hum, the curtains whiz shut and the room darkens. "That’s our >favorite thing about the Four Seasons in New York." > >They pass a home gym (with a chandelier) and head to Melissa’s office. >"Look >what Julie gave me for my birthday," says Etheridge. "She took a lot of my >T-shirts and made it into a quilt." > >It is a patchwork, says Cypher, of places they’ve been, "places where we’ve >had too many cocktails." > >"Huey Lewis," says one square. "That was one of my first tours," says >Etheridge. "I opened for them in Europe." She gazes at it. "I love this," >she tells Cypher. > >They head downstairs and plop down on a couch in the kitchen. The kids are >off to take a nap, and the women are ready to tell their tale. > >It all began in Hawaii, they say, where the two were vacationing. They >dropped by to visit David Crosby and his missis, Jan, whom they had met a >while back at a show. "We’d see them every now and then at a party, stuff >like that," says Etheridge. As the group chatted, the subject of children >came up, and Etheridge and Cypher mentioned their dilemma: Eggs they had. >Sperm was another matter. > >"And Jan said, ‘What about David?’ " says Etheridge. "It came from her, >which was the best, most perfect way." They thought it over for a year >before they made the call. "For one, he’s musical, which means a lot to me, >you know, and I admire his work," says Etheridge. "And he has his own life, >has his own family." > >A few questions: > >What do the kids call you? > >"I am Mama, Julie is Mamo," says Etheridge. > >Not to put too fine a point on it, but how did the fertilization occur? > >"It was artificial insemination, done privately," says Cypher. > >"We did not use a turkey baster," adds Etheridge. > >"No kitchen implements were involved," says Cypher. > >It was decided that she should carry the babies because of Ether-idge’s >work. "I was more the homebody, so to speak," Cypher says. "And I’m a >health >nut, a fanatic, so I was really good at making babies." > >Are the Crosbys the kids’ godparents? > >"No, that would be our dearest friends," she says, pointing to a picture of >a smiling man and woman. "Beckett’s role model," she says, pointing to the >man. > >"For people who are worried about the male role model," says Etheridge. "So >many people are worried about that male role model." > >"Sometimes they have a hard time wrapping their head around the fact that >this can work," says Cypher. > >Some more questions. > >How do your families and friends feel about this? > >"Both of our families are so cool about it," says Etheridge. > >"They’re grandkids," says Cypher with a laugh. "They don’t care how they >get >’em – they just want ’em." > >When the couple told Steven Spielberg and Kate Capshaw, with whom they’ve >socialized on both coasts for the past two years, "I thought it was >fabulous," Capshaw says, "after I said, ‘Who’s David Crosby?’" She laughs >uproariously. "The name rang a bell! Oh, God. As they sat there with their >expectant faces, right? I’m like, ‘I know he was part of a big group that >did well.’" She laughs again. "I was listening to Claudine Longet back >then, >let’s be honest." > >Does Crosby share parental duties? > >"It’s not a parental thing for David," says Etheridge. "David and Jan >totally understood that we are the parents." > >"So we see them every once in a while," says Cypher. > >"Julie is adopted," says Etheridge. Coming from that place – wanting to >know >who her real parents were – she felt it was important that her children >know >where they came from. > >"Four or five months ago, when she was two and a half, Bailey said, ‘Do I >have a daddy?’ I said, ‘Well, yes, you do.’ Pause. ‘Well, who is he?’ I >said, ‘You know our friend David, with the funny mustache?’" Satisfied, >Bailey moved on to the next subject. Relieved, so did Cypher. > >Was there a concern about the father’s well-known past, which includes >prodigious drug use? > >Cypher and Etheridge did their homework on this matter and were convinced >there was no danger to their children. We asked our own expert, New York >urologist Mark Stein, who says, "Sperm are made all the time, and they take >three months to mature. So the sperm that’s coming out today was made three >months ago. If you change your lifestyle, it will take three months for the >sperm to reflect it. Also, sperm are self-selecting, unlike eggs, so >damaged >sperm usually don’t make it." > >Why break the news here? > >Etheridge and Cypher decided to come to Rolling Stone with their story >after >the two ran into editor and publisher Jann S. Wenner at VH1’s Concert of >the >Century last October in Washington, D.C. "Julie was on a mission to tell >everybody," says Etheridge. "She told Jann, and I made some sort of joke. I >said, ‘Oh, yeah, let it be known in Rolling Stone.’ And I remember leaving >there going, ‘Huh. Well, that’s an idea. It’s musical, which is really >cool, >it’s funky, and we could tell the story the way we wanted to, before the >world – well, I don’t know about the world but whoever is interested in it >– >picked up on it and did what they were going to do." > >Contributing editor Jancee Dunn explored the lives of teenage girls in RS >825. > >For the complete story, check out RS 833, on newsstands this week. > >Patti in Dallas > Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:52:52 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: CSN - Crosby Sperm Needed ? (NJC) Mark said: >seems like everybody wins. Vince replied: >Especially the Rolling Stone and the careers of all involved, as all >publicity is good publicity. Which leads me to ask, how are their latest CDs selling anyhoo? Have the sales gone 'way up following this release of information? Who, me? Cynical? Naah. Catherine (in Toronto - I really DO have work to do - I've been back to work for 3 days and just can't get into it!) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 13:08:20 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Both Sides, Now doesn't come cheap! NJC Come on, Larry, and stop feeling so left out. She included a painting for you and you are still getting co-billing as the producer ;-) > This whole "special edition" thing is so transparent. > Bob hit the nail just left of the head -- this is > about "recouping" you bet ... but not the cost of > producing the candybox ... rather, the cost of hiring > huge orchestras (40 and 70 piece if memory serves) for > BSNs production. That's why they're trotting out this > overpriced (yes, Joni or not it's TOO MUCH) > pseudo-collector's item in advance. And for this Joni > fan -- that's goin' over like a LEAD LEAD LEAD > balloon! This isn't the first time Joni has done these special packagings. There was one for Night Ride Home consisting of a miniature black artist portfolio containing miniature lithos and lyric sheets and there was the Grammy for the well-known Turbluent Indigo soft, fold-out package containing little lithos and the tin ear. Does anyone here recall whether these specials were released in advance of the regular CD? I think both of them were priced around $25.00. It seems to me that this special edition is more of a case of Reprise accomodating Joni's last-minute creative wishes rather than Reprise initiating a craftily clever marketing angle. (Although I do see them wanting to recoup more upfront on the special CD by releasing it first and what is wrong with that?) If we are to believe Joni per Wally Breese's story of their visit, the original plan was to just release a jewel case with cover art of photographs of Joni and the others at the recording sessions in London. Joni showed this cover art to Wally and he expressed the wish that he'd rather see paintnigs on the cover than the photos. Around this same time she was asked to do the LACE show and cranked out these four new paintings in something like two weeks! So it may be safe to speculate that she decided to do the special package after going on an eleventh-hour creative roll. Now think of the cost of getting something like this designed, put together, manufactured and shipped out in time for the Valentine's Day release in such a shortened time window. Throw in a few weeks of holidays in the mix to add to the crunch. I'm thrilled that Joni and Robbie busted their you-know-whats to get this out to the fans and I hope they win another Grammy for it. I don't see this as a "pseudo collectors item" - it is a real one to me, and consistent with her pattern of creating and releasing these specials over the past decade. I'm happy to pay any recoupment cost to have it. Plus, artists have been releasing special, deluxe packages like these since the invention of the phonograph so this is nothing new at all. I have a load of them from the 30s, 40s and 50s from my father's garage. Geez, I think you guys are a little put out that the special packaging is kind of a chick thing. So pick it up for your sweeties for Valentine's Day - they'll love it! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 13:31:44 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Both Sides, Now doesn't come cheap! NJC I'm sticking to my guns ... but it's NOT the special packaging I object to at all -- the fact is, if like the previous offerings, it came out around the $25 price point -- I'd buy it in a heartbeat. But $44 is gouging ... any considerations of history, creative inspiration or collectability aside. They'll just have to wait a month ... when the "standard issue" BSN comes out, I'll spend the same money on four copies -- and put joy in four times as many lives and four times as much money in Joni's pocket ... I am not beating the drum for a boycott here by any means. I think those who want the special edition for whatever reason, should get it, absolutely. I'm glad to see them get it. I'm just taking a pass ... Don Rowe ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 13:58:43 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: population NJC > > > A moritorium on breeding until we solve the famine, war, > > pollution, and other problems does not seem unreasonable. > > Compulsory neutering is a brilliant idea. We could start by preventing those we > don't like from breeding-...ah but I think this would cause more problems than > we are trying to solve. Reminds me of somthing or someone but I can't think who > right now..... Ouch! But I never said compulsory. RR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:02:57 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: The List (NJC) gdave, you are right. i'm not sure what got into me last night. i should have just moved on rather than question you. i promise, i won't do that again. may all your lists be full of pure joni content. pat ( not bob ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:23:52 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: population NJC Catherine McKay wrote: > > Randy said: > >Latest studies show that there is indeed enough food > >to feed the entire world, but just barely, and within > >our lifetimes this will no longer be the case. > > If there is not enough food, or will not be shortly, it isn't because it > isn't available, or potentially available. How many gallons of milk and > tonnes of eggs are dumped every years by the have-countries because the > various Marketing boards want to ensure that prices remain stable (i.e., > that they don't go down) when they could be shipping these, or the > constituent parts thereof to the have-not countries. You can walk into any > supermarket here in Canada and I'm sure in the US, most of Europe, > Australia, New Zealand and lord knows where else, and see more variety of > useless "food" such as chips, candy bars, soda pop and so on, than any kid > in a candy shop could dream up. There are so many varieties of apples it's > mind-boggling and cute little tomatoes on vines from all over the world. > When foods are shipped over to countries torn by civil war and famine, it > often doesn't get into the hands and mouths of those who need it - it is > waylaid and destroyed or held for ransom by the warlord of the month. I > believe there is enough food and there could continue to be enough food for > everyone, that everyone in the world could be comfortable, not just eking > out an existence, but the political will is not there. People are too > caught up in their petty little differences (ethnic/race wars and so on) or > too afraid that if they give an inch, the other side will want a mile, to be > bothered to see the rest of the planet's population as all part of one big > family. > While all that is true, and food is a business for profit, it does not prove that we can provide for an ever increasing population. > >We as a species have used up most of the resources on this > >planet. In my area, only 3% of the ancient redwoods remain, > >and it takes 1000 years to grow a big one. As Wally K > >mentioned, fresh water has been depleted (90% of the > >main groundwater aquifers beneath the US, which take > >hundreds of years to replentish.) Lost agricultural land > >measures in the thousands of acres per year, etc, etc. > > This is very true, but not because these things are not renewable because > they so clearly are. If forests are properly managed and not just > clear-cut, there would continue to be plenty of trees. It's those > short-sighted businessmen again looking at the bottom line, and wanting it > NOW, who couldn't be bothered to think beyond next week or the next quarter. > And there is no excuse for the pollution of the earth's water supply. Like I said, redwood forests are only renewable if you want to wait 1000 years to grow them. Certainly clearcutting is criminal and stupid, but again, none of this proves that we can supply an endless number of people with shelter and building materials. My comment on the aquifers was not about pollution. They are massive underground lakes which the farmers have been pumping out of, and drilling deeper and deeper to reach the water, which will take hundreds of years to replentish. An excellent book "Cadillac Desert" goes into this in detail. Not everything on earth is renewable. The oceans are being fished dry, people are eating the fish, they are not being wasted. The wood from all those forests was used to build homes. In northern California and elsewhere, orchards and farmland are being razed to build tract homes. Obviously this can't go on forever. We seem to think there is no limit. Sure we could keep adding people, and all live at subsistence level. Or fewer people could live better. The underdeveloped countries all want what we have: cars, TV's, computers, VCR's. Who wants to tell 1 billion Chinese they can't have them? There are two factors: use of resources, and number of people. Multiply them. Even very low use of resources by everyone has a limit. As I think can be shown, our agricultural technology has peaked, and will stay about the same or decline. What I'm talking about is having a little bit of a margin for error. What happens if there is a 40 year drought, as there has been in the past? Would you spend your money down to the last penny assuming more was coming, if you had the choice? > > >To name a few issues contingent on population. I conclude > >from this: > >There are too many people. > > (Are you volunteering for a suicide mission? I'm JOKING!) I don't know if > there are too many people so much as poor distribution of them. The rich > get rich and the poor get children. In many areas of the world, the idea of > birth control goes against religious and cultural beliefs - Yes, religious superstition is not helping the problem. Also there seems to be denial on our part as a species. If we were to drive to the nearest city, and we saw dogs everywhere, and we found out that dogs were causing the entire planet's climate to change, and using up all the available resources and all the fish in the sea, we would say "There are too many dogs! We've got to do something about this!" Because it's us, we don't quite see it that way. > >A comfortable number would be about a tenth (or less) of > >the current population. > >A moritorium on breeding until we solve the famine, war, > >pollution, and other problems does not seem unreasonable. > > You're quite right - it's Catch 22. If you tried to put a moratorium on > breeding, you'd just cause another war and more famine would result. How so? I am thinking of a voluntary moratorium. Like what Dr. Helen Caldicott says. Because we see that we are destroying the planet, we decide to put contraceptives in all the water. Then we can have sex to our heart's content, and in a generation, we are gone, and the rest of the planet and it's inhabitants can recover from us. We could just party like it's 19...oops ...I mean what's the problem with that other than our egos that tell us we're so important and God's gift to the universe? RR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:35:06 -0600 (CST) From: michael w yarbrough Subject: Re: Both Sides, Now doesn't come cheap (NJC) Kakki wrote: > Geez, I think you guys are a little put out that the special packaging is > kind of a chick thing. So pick it up for your sweeties for Valentine's > Day - they'll love it! Cuz, as we all know, all the guys on this list have, ahem, chicks for sweeties. ;-) - --Michael NP: Basement Jaxx, "U Can't Stop Me" - ----------------------------------------------------------------- "If I owned Texas and hell, I'd rent out Texas and live in hell." - --Gen. P.H. Sheridan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:36:03 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni I WOULD pay $44 to have ...VLJC In a message dated 1/12/00 1:11:04 PM US Central Standard Time, alisone@kirkhams.com writes: << Maybe it's a chick thing, because like Kakki and Catgirl, I have 44 bucks in hand for BSN. >> Not a chick thing...I ordered mine through Wally's site 2 days ago! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:38:11 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: The List (NJC) In a message dated 1/12/00 2:00:02 PM US Central Standard Time, kb420@webtv.net writes: << Bob corrected me and asked: >> Dave, this was somebody else's response...not mine.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:50:10 -0500 (EST) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: Apologies all around (NJC) I seem to have some people all mixed up today. Sorry, Bob (male), for mis-attributing you. Sorry, Pat (i'm in trouble), for mistaking you for Bob. Sorry, Winefred (male), once again for the gender thing. And while we're at it, to Colin & John (males) just in case. gdave (male...with a ever-so-slight feminine component that enables me to appreciate our Joan...how's that for gut spilling?) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:58:02 GMT From: "Jamie Zubairi" Subject: LACE interview not really JC I have received the LACE i/v tape!!!! (Thank You Jacky!) Is that a really beefy beery burp, just after she says "Anyway....buuuuuuUUUUURRRRRP this had got a lot of sort of clouds'. During when she talks about clouds. Listen to it. It sounds like she's burping!!! Jamie Zubairi ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:04:24 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: Joni I WOULD pay $44 to have ... - --- Don Rowe wrote: > Come on folks, there have got to be other things we > fantasize about out there ... Yes, but I gave up on some of those fantasies a long time ago, when I thought "What would this 27 year old goddess want with me, a 16 year old kid?" But the fantasy of "Gee, maybe I'll get to meet her one day" lives on, thanks to my wonderful family here on the list. And most of my other fantasies would make this a truly NJC-AT ALL type of post :-) Take care, Brian np: HOSL Demos (and waitin' for my sugar to show/call) ===== "No paper thin walls, no folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:18:35 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: Joni I WOULD pay $44 to have ...VLJC Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:07:30 -0800 From: Mike Friedman I had un.sub.scribed for a long time, and am not really sure what's going to be on this Both Sides Now album. Can someone please enlighten me? Also, there was talk last year about a tribute album with other performers doing Joni's work (ala the Fleetwood Mac Rumours tribute which is lots of fun). Did this ever get released? Mike ============================================================= "I see the blue pools in the squinting sun and the hissing of summer lawns."--Joni Mitchell, 1975 Mike Friedman, San Francisco, CA, USA http://63.192.218.181 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:23:31 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Both Sides, Now doesn't come cheap! NJC In a message dated 1/12/2000 4:12:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << I don't see this as a "pseudo collectors item" - it is a real one to me, and consistent with her pattern of creating and releasing these specials over the past decade. I'm happy to pay any recoupment cost to have it. Plus, artists have been releasing special, deluxe packages like these since the invention of the phonograph so this is nothing new at all. I have a load of them from the 30s, 40s and 50s from my father's garage. Geez, I think you guys are a little put out that the special packaging is kind of a chick thing. So pick it up for your sweeties for Valentine's Day - they'll love it! >> AMEN SISTER!! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:31:17 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Both Sides, Now doesn't come cheap! NJC Don wrote: > I'm sticking to my guns ... but it's NOT the special > packaging I object to at all -- the fact is, if like > the previous offerings, it came out around the $25 > price point -- I'd buy it in a heartbeat. But $44 is > gouging ... any considerations of history, creative > inspiration or collectability aside. I don't think they are gouging over and above normal profit margins. Figuring the numbers, you would start out at $15 for the regular, stripped down model. Then you add the options of 4 lithos, lyric sheets, special tissue papers to separate the lithos, a custom-constructed silk box plus a mystery surprise or surprises. What if the surprise is a ticket to an upcoming concert? Or maybe an instant $10 off rebate ;-D > They'll just have to wait a month ... when the "standard >issue" BSN comes out, I'll spend the same money on four >copies -- and put joy in four times as many lives and four >times as much money in Joni's pocket ... That's great and it could help keep her charting longer to have the staggered releases. I'm also going to buy some regulars for gifts. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:45:58 -0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: RE: Both Sides, Now doesn't come cheap! NJC On Wednesday, January 12, 2000 9:32 PM, Don Rowe [SMTP:dgrowe227@yahoo.com] wrote: > I'm sticking to my guns ... but it's NOT the special > packaging I object to at all -- the fact is, if like > the previous offerings, it came out around the $25 > price point -- I'd buy it in a heartbeat. But $44 is > gouging ... Ouch. $44? Well, that might be bearable... if I lived in the USA. But I don't. Therefore, I'll lay bets that BSN will be over ?40, possibly towards ?50 when it gets here. That's the beauty of shipping goods to the UK, from a supplier's standpoint: you get to swap the dollar sign for a pound sign, perhaps add a few pounds too, and go "ooooh, it's the shipping guv'nor". As some comedy program once observed... "what mugs we are..." Cynically, - --Chris (who knows that in reality he can just go to cdnow.com and brave import duties) Chris Marshall Secure Systems Integration Ltd Web: http://www.secure-si.co.uk/ Tel: +44 (0) 7970 459 553 Fax: +44 (0) 1954 201 741 E-mail: chris@secure-si.co.uk PGP key: http://www.secure-si.co.uk/chris/pubkey.txt Fingerprint: 49F7 5132 C599 6ADC 47E7 844E A612 3F53 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:53:30 EST From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Both Sides, Now doesn't come cheap! NJC In a message dated 1/12/00 3:34:31 PM Pacific Standard Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << > I'm sticking to my guns ... but it's NOT the special > packaging I object to at all -- the fact is, if like > the previous offerings, it came out around the $25 > price point -- I'd buy it in a heartbeat. But $44 is > gouging ... any considerations of history, creative > inspiration or collectability aside. >> Here's something that I can speak about with some authority! I don't know nuttin' about open chords or tuna fish, but I do know accounting. The suggested MSLP is $44.00. My company's wholesale price is about $33 if my memory of looking at our database yesterday holds true. (I'm always surprised when I buy my stuff through employee purchases how relatively little I end up saving.) When you figure all the handling that goes into getting that CD out to you or the store and the rest of the stuff that makes up the COGS, (cost of goods sold), the profit margin is mighty darn slim. From an accounting standpoint, the price gouging is not happening at CD Now's end and as Khakki pointed out, it is coming with a lot of extras which translate into extra costs and extra handling. Packages such as these special editions require special storage in the warehouse, (it's not the typical size), extra freight, (ditto the size), and often because of the "odd" warehouse location, extra order handling because it is stored out of the mainstream of other new releases. I'm more intimate than I care to be with the last expense since over the December holidays, warehouse work was mandatory for all professional staff. So those of you who got their CD Now orders on time for December, it may have been thanks to me! (:-D MG np: the afternoon clamor of "what's to eat, Mom?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:55:35 EST From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Both Sides, Now doesn't come cheap! NJC In a message dated 1/12/00 3:26:56 PM Pacific Standard Time, CaTGirl627@aol.com writes: << Geez, I think you guys are a little put out that the special packaging is kind of a chick thing. So pick it up for your sweeties for Valentine's Day - they'll love it! >> Note to Joni: To pick up more male purchases, consider timing your next release to tie in with Super Bowl Sunday. Just a thought. MG - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:12:52 -0800 From: Scott Price Subject: Joni Mitchell Companion I read from cover to cover Stacey Luftig's "Joni Mitchell Companion" and found it provides a thorough examination of the artist as it spans Joni's entire career. Roughly compiled in chronological order, the author/editor has included choice previously-published reviews, interviews, articles, and photographs from a broad cross-section of writers and compositional styles which describe the many, many facets of Joni...her art, music, spirituality, personality, and beauty. The chosen works allow the reader to observe how Joni's career has developed, to admire Joni's integrity and consistency throughout, and help us understand a little better where Joni is coming from these days. Although I had read several of the pieces before, Stacey has selected some very thought-provoking and revealing clips and I was left with a deeply renewed appreciation for all of the things that Joni stands for, IMO: intellect, creativity, honesty, and inspiration...proving once again that she fulfills the title SIQUOMB. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 19:41:02 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Fred Simon gig alert Hey all, please excuse the self-plug. Dave Onderdonk and I have been playing together for 30 years (oy!) and we speak the same musical language. He is a wonderful composer and brilliant guitarist, and our gigs together are too few. (Also, Hipskind and Kohut ... fantastic rhythm section). Please come on down if you can. DAVE ONDERDONK QUARTET Dave Onderdonk - guitar Fred Simon - piano Tom Hipskind - drums Larry Kohut - bass Saturday, January 15, 2000 9:00 p.m. - 1:00 a.m. Pop's For Champagne 2934 N. Sheffield, Chicago for information (773) 472.1000 ***IF IT SOUNDS GOOD, IT IS GOOD*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:10:45 -0500 From: waytoblu@mindspring.com Subject: Re: Good News (for Colin) BAD NEWS (for jmdl) > >Oh well, snap back to reality and continue working on the Tribute >show in May. I am so mad I could just spit and I am sorry to let all of you >down as well. > don't feel sorry. Your efforts are very much appreciated and you have already done more than anyone could have asked of you. Victor....relieved that I won't have to try to resist the temptation to run off to New Orleans... "Cat on a tin roof, dogs in a pile, Nothing left to do but smile, smile, smile." Robert Hunter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:10:14 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni I WOULD pay $44 to have ...VLJC Mike asked: > I had un.sub.scribed for a long time, and am not really >sure what's going to be on this Both Sides Now album. >Can someone please enlighten me? Joni sings the old standards and two of her original songs with, variously, a 70-piece orchestra, 40-piece orchestra and an 8-piece jazz combo. The songs are: You're My Thrill; At Last; Comes Love; You've Changed; Answer Me; A Case of You; Don't Go To Strangers; Sometimes I'm Happy; Don't Worry 'Bout Me, Stormy Weather, I Wish I Were in Love Again, and Both Sides Now > Also, there was talk last year about a tribute album with >other performers doing Joni's work (ala the Fleetwood Mac >Rumours tribute which is lots of fun). Did this ever get >released? I just checked the Reprise web site the other day and it's due for release in a few months. Kakki NP: Remastered KCSN Interview CD (Thanks Patti!!) > > Mike > > ============================================================= > "I see the blue pools in the squinting sun > and the hissing of summer lawns."--Joni Mitchell, 1975 > > Mike Friedman, San Francisco, CA, USA > http://63.192.218.181 > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:34:23 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Good News (for Colin) BAD NEWS (for jmdl) NJC In a message dated 1/12/00 7:04:44 PM US Central Standard Time, waytoblu@mindspring.com writes: << don't feel sorry. Your efforts are very much appreciated and you have already done more than anyone could have asked of you. >> But now for the REALLY BAD news!! "BSN" is *really* Carly's new record, so I just pissed away 48 bucks for a Carly Simon record!! :~D (No offense Colin) Bob NP: Laura Nyro, "Light" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:05:59 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni I WOULD pay $44 to have ... Mike & Kakki were talking... << Also, there was talk last year about a tribute album with >other performers doing Joni's work (ala the Fleetwood Mac >Rumours tribute which is lots of fun). Did this ever get >released? I just checked the Reprise web site the other day and it's due for release in a few months. >> Well, between this post and the "Slouching" posts, maybe it's time to tree up some more stuff...like: 1. Joni live in Vancouver, Canada 05/14/98, very nice set as follows: Night Ride Home Crazy Cries of Love Harry's House Slouching Towards Bethlehem Just Like This Train Black Crow Amelia Hejira Facelift Sex Kills Magdalene Laundries Moon at the Window Refuge of the Roads Big Yellow Taxi (Simon had previously treated us to "Refuge" on TT7. Here's the whole show, with the great version of "Slouching"...although if she closed with Woodstock, it's not included on the copy I have) And in the way of Tributes, if you don't wanna wait a couple of months, I have put together a Joni Tribute CD with some stuff I had laying around...it looks like this: Fairport Convention - Eastern Rain (1969) Fairport Convention - Marcie (1968) Fairport Convention - Chelsea Morning (1968) Fairport Convention - I Don't Know Where I stand (1968) Fairport Convention - Night In The City (1968) Fairport Convention - Woodstock (live/accapella, 1986) Tim Curry - Cold Blue Steel and Sweet Fire (Thanks Jimmy!) Caroline Lavelle - A Case of You Cleo Laine - Both Sides Now Cassandra Wilson - Black Crow Betty Buckley - River Betty Buckley - A Case of You Bonnie Raitt - That Song About the Midway Holly Cole - River Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young - Woodstock (alternative version from the box set) Phoebe Snow - A Case of You And last but CERTAINLY not least...for those of you who have "Unplugged & Jamming, Vol. 2", she does a song with Fred Neil "Searching for the Dolphins". Well, here's the rest of that show, or at least what I have...this one is awesome for us Hejira fans - it features Jaco and Bobbye Hall playing with Joni: Coyote Shadows and Light (This is Joni's alternative arrangement, like the one she plays on the unreleased Last Waltz set, except with Jaco) Jericho (ends with a three-minute Jaco solo - bass bombs galore!! Edith and the Kingpin Furry Sings The Blues Searching For the Dolphin (with Fred Neil) As if that wasn't enough, and it would be, Joni fans, there's enough room left on the CD for yet another benefit, so it's also included. It's the St. James benefit she played IN Quebec 04/15/73 and includes the following: For Free You Turn Me On (I'm A Radio) Big Yellow Taxi Woman of Heart and Mind Just Like This Train Both Sides Now As Peter H. would say, great music by a great artist!! :~) If you're interested in getting your very own CD copies of this stuff, send blank CD's accordingly to: Bob Muller 309 West Prentiss Ave. Greenville, SC 29605 NOTE: I'M BEGGIN 'YA...MAKE SURE YOUR DISCS SAY "MUSIC" OR "AUDIO" ON THEM. OTHERWISE I CAN'T MAKE THEM IN MY MACHINE....:~( Please also include the self-addressed stamped envelope and a little note (I loves them little notes) reminding me what you want. If you have any questions, let me know! And it won't even cost $44...hell, even Don can afford this package! :~) Bob NP: Laura Nyro, "The Sweet Sky" ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #21 **************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?