From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #18 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, January 11 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 018 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- =?iso-8859-1?Q?h=FCbsch_als_es_w=E4hrte_-NJC_NJC_NJC_NJC_NJC_NJC_NJC_NJC_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?!!!?= ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: The List (NJC) [kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)] Re: Crosby and world overpopulation-NJC!!! [catman ] of marginal content, but I'm sending anyway... [Richard Rice ] musical biogs....(NJC) [Dmascall@aol.com] real good for free [Martin Giles ] Re: (JGC) Joni Guitar Content. [Phyliss Ward ] Sure Bob (NJC) ["Michael Paz" ] Oh Sure (NJC) ["Michael Paz" ] Re: JM in NOLA ["Michael Paz" ] Re: real good for free ["Bill Dollinger" ] Re: Crosby etc. NJC ["Alan Lorimer" ] Re: reproducing NJC [Winfried Huehn ] Melissa reproducing (njc) [evian ] Re: real good for free [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Melissa reproducing (njc) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #17 [Riveragelsinger@aol.com] Re: The List (NJC) [Siresorrow@aol.com] this saskatchewan girl loves quebec [Kate ] Re: CSN - Crosby Sperm Needed ? (NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: NJC the year 2000 - hype and BSN [Brian Gross ] Fw: Amour, mama, not cheap display! ["Mark or Travis" ] NJC: Melissa story in Rolling Stone mag [pattihaskins@mindspring.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:26:47 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?h=FCbsch_als_es_w=E4hrte_-NJC_NJC_NJC_NJC_NJC_NJC_NJC_NJC_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?!!!?= well, ten minutes ago i read in the paper that some german scientist/politician/writer [i don't remember] has predicted than within the next 25 years widespread conflagrations will break out over fresh water. this IS one resource that is running short at an alarmingly fast pace, what with the melting of antarctica and the poisoning of lakes. german lakes have a ph [degree of acidity] equivalent to that of vinegar!!!! ever since early childhood, i have supported negative population growth movements [once i made sure that i had been born, of course]. wallyk, playing kurt weill to mourn for the dead german lakes, "hübsch als es währte und nun ist's vorüber..." ["it was nice while it lasted and now it's all over..."] steve wrote: >I still have doubts > whether there truly is enough for all ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:41:13 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: njc BUT PLEASE READ IF IN NYC OR DETROIT!!!!! mes enfants, on jan 19 i'll be arriving in detroit to begin my summer vacations. i'll stay there until jan 25. any jmdlers there that would like to frisk and gambol with me? from jan 25 to feb 25 i'll be in nyc. kenny, patrick and the rest of the eastern board jmdl paltoon get ready. so far i know only my phone # in nyc only. if you think hanging out with me is not a totally disagreeable idea write me privately. anybody from new york going to nawlins for the FANTASTIC joni appearance that saint michael has advertised, let me know. i might travel down south for a couple of days if i canm share expenses. for the time being, it's detroit [a holy land for joni fans, so tell me all there is to see and worship in the area!!!] and the rotten apple. yours, wallyk, losing my mind thinking that i might see joni live for the first time in my life and not too decrepit yet at that. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:44:38 -0700 From: "timothy schroeder" Subject: London 70 BBC FM With James Taylor- Any Great Recordings of this anywhere? I have both the Teddy Bear Release as well as the one volume in the 3 Volume Joni Mitchell boot series that came out on cd. Both sound like they were both derived from the same early bootleg lp from the early 70`s. Does any one have a tape source of this or a copy of the BBC recording from the radio station only discs? I can burn cds and have a number of rare recordings of Joni, Jackson Browne , James Taylor, Bob Dylan ect. Any help is definitely appreciated. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:59:51 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Crosby NJC!! In a message dated 1/11/2000 11:25:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, foa@igc.org writes: << But I don't see how we can continue to blindly assert that everyone has the right to a Mini-Me. I don't think that health-care resources should be allocated on fertility treatments, especially with so many children with no caretakers. Bill >> I do agree with you here as well Bill. I have no problem if someone wants to have a child but when people start having 4 or 5 or 6 children and then they have kids you soon start having tons of people running around. I am mean how many children should each person have? I have a friend who is from a family of 11. Each one of her sibling has kids and I am talking like 4 or 5 each. That is around 60 people for ONE family. Talk about overpopulating the earth! Catgirl yikes!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:59:28 -0500 From: Richard Rice Subject: (JGC) Joni Guitar Content. Hello everyone! I just had the most amazing, long, chat with Fred Walecki, the fellow who built Joni's guitar!!!! O my gosh, o my gosh!! Silly me did not have my Monica Lewinsky Tape Player going so I am trying like crazy to remember all that was said; it was soooooooo cool. Anyway, I've been thinking of buying a Parker (thanks to Mike Paz for all his amazing and wonderful help), and had a few questions , so in a moment of brilliance thought, heck, why not go to the original source. After trading a few emails, Fred Walecki asked me to ring him about what gear to buy, yadda yadda. Well today I gave him a call and he talked my ear off for at least a half hour regailing me with story upon story about Joan's introduction to the parker. Like Joan, Fred joking mentioned being kind of long winded, and when the two are together, they go on and on for hours trading tales. She is good at it, he can't sleep nights afterwards, all buzzed from her imaginative conversations. Lucky stiff. Well said lucky stiff is a long standing friend of Joni's. She has purchased a good many of her guitars from him, so he was long aware of her frustrations with open tunings. As luck would have it, he received one of the first two or so Roland VG8's and spent quite a few long hours on the phone to Japan dealing with the bugs in it. The first guitar he built using it was for a friend's wife who wanted one. She eventually returned the guitar and Fred set about improvements for Joan, changing pic ups and all. It was a stratocaster stripped down and made to run to the VG8. Of course Joan loved it instantly. Fred later traded stories with Ken Parker about the new guitar he made Joni. Ken, being a big Joni fan, asked Fred if it were ok, to have a go at making one for her himself. Very quickly, Ken had designs in the mail to Fred that absolutely wowed him. Still, he didn't show Joan the designs for fear they might change in production.When Fred passed along the information that Ken Parker wanted to build her a guitar, he said she was totally disinterested. She liked his guitar and was perfectly happy with it. Fred begged on, trying to convince her that Parker was leagues above him and that she would be majorly impressed by his work. Nothing registered with her until he mentioned that it would be even lighter than the one he built. 'Lighter?', she says. Well that got her interest. Finally the product came into his shop and he invited her over for a look. Knowing how cool it was, and certain she would like it, he left it in the box so seeing it would be a total surprise. He said she stood there arms crossed like, this is a waste of my time until he finally undid the wrapping... her eyes lit up and she said something like, "This is the most beautiful design I have ever seen." And it is too. Tease that Fred is, he ho-humly calls Ken to talk business like on the phone about the guitar, until Joni pops on the line and puts Ken through the roof with something like, 'This is Joni. Your guitar is a work of art. It is the most beautiful design ever'. The two of them chat for a long while. Some time later Ken comes out to L.A. to meet with Fred Walecki and go over business dealings with him. So Fred calls up Joan and says, let's go out to dinner tonight. There is someone I'd like you to meet. And Fred says to Ken, let's go to dinner, and by the way, I need to pick someone up on the way. So they are driving through Joan's neighborhood, Ken totally none the wiser, so he starts asking a few questions...Where are we going? So who is this person? And Fred is like, no prob. She's a song writer. I think you heard of her stuff. Just as they pull up to the house Ken finally gets it. Surprise!!! Out comes Joan and the two of them join her in her 'tin' pick up truck, which Fred knew would be her preferred means of transportation, for a drive into the city for dinner. Well, they are on the freeway, and for no reason Ken whips off his seat belt with such vigor it makes a ringing sound against the door. Concerned, Fred is asking, 'What's wrong? What's wrong?' And Ken says something like, ' I am riding here in this old truck with you and Joni Mitchell. If we get in an accident and die, this is the way I want to go!' Now if I have this straight, the guitar Fred Walecki remodeled Strat that Joni has named 'Greenpeace.' It is the instrument that most of TTT was recorded with. Today she plays Ken's Parker mostly, which suits Fred Walecki just fine. The Greenpeace goes along on tour as a back-up. It has a different tone to it, a lot more 'drive' Joni says, and she prefers to use it on certain songs. As for Ken, the Parker he made for her, called the Concert Parker Fly, is 'basic' in its pick ups and made for the VG8. May we say it is going gangbusters for him? And why not, it is a stunning piece of art! Very beautiful. Fred Walecki is just a wonderful man. And if you let him, he will talk your ear off. You can tell how much he loves Joan from his coversation. He mentioned that he was considering joining the discussion list. I told he should, but not as forceful as I should have!!! Sucks, not a forceful guy, me. But he was so excited to hear about my interest in all things Joni. I thought, heck, I am just the tip of the iceberg, sitting bottom row left. Anyway, one other major note of interest to the list. Joni is going to sell her guitars from the Hejira tour and Fred was curious if I thought the list would be interested in knowing that. --I plan on robbing several banks myself, after I finish typing this. It seems she is tired of them taking up space in her recording studio. By the way, said studio is about to be deconstructed and turned into a painting studio. (Yipes. Sometimes we learn so much regarding her life I feel a little squimish about it.) Anyway, among the guitars are six George Benson's that were set for different tunings for the shows. Fred made a point of mentioning they have very low serial numbers, like 0745, which I assume means they are of particular worth. All with pearl inlays and other special touches for Joni. She even has her second electric guitar, it seems the first was from Neil Young, but he liked the gift so much he took it back. Neatest of all, Joni wrote a short letter for each guitar, giving a brief history of it's place in her artisty and wishing the new owner well. As I said, Fred Walecki is offering more information to the list regarding them and I felt it would be better if someone more official, and more knowledgeable handle this. Anyone care to tackle? Les? Certainly I am sure he would be wonderful for an interview for the list. He has a lot of curiosity about all that is going on here, he even wanted to know if I knew Wally, but alas, I hated having to say no. I told him I would try to contact someone here about having the sites make a more offical contact. Someone please help me in that regard. Well, that was that. A most interesting afternoon. Happy to share it with you all. Wow, I just love how these two great awesome sites are magnifying my love of Joni's beautiful artistry. - --And all the beautiful people too! Thanks for listen. John. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:06:09 -0500 (EST) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: Re: The List (NJC) Winefred posts her opinion: >If we only had JC here, the list would be >much more anonymous and less >appealing Of course there is the flipside to this, If we only had JC here, the list would be much less time consuming and more appealing. gdave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:16:18 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Crosby and world overpopulation-NJC!!! > Yes, we are doing some things to help others and the planet- but is it > enough??? No we are not doing enough at all. No one is. As for food, yes there is more than enought to go around but farmers get paid to grow/raise nothing. In Europe there are food mountians to keep the price of food up etc.Natural disasters are made worse because of deforestation etc. > Doubtful. This has to become part of the planetary consciousness, > no just a handful of individuals. I've lost hope. What a shame... > > Steve - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:19:10 -0600 From: "Mark T. Domyancich" Subject: Re: (JGC) Joni Guitar Content. Great story, John! Ooh, if I had the money I would definitely buy one of Joni's old guitars... the only thing problem is that I would be afraid of breaking it! (You know that Joni guitar I bought for $5000, well, the neck fell off!) If you get a chance to talk to Fred again, John, see if he can find out the string gauges from the Shadows and Light tour. I would be very interested in finding those out! NP-Joni-Last Waltz-Furry Sings The Blues At 1:59 PM -0500 1/11/00, John wrote: >Joni is going to sell her guitars from the Hejira tour and Fred was >curious if I thought the list would be interested in knowing that. >--I plan on >robbing several banks myself, after I finish typing this. It seems she >is tired of them taking up space in her recording studio. By the way, >said studio is about to be deconstructed and turned into a painting >studio. (Yipes. Sometimes we learn so much regarding her life I feel a >little squimish about it.) Anyway, among the guitars are six George >Benson's that were set for different tunings for the shows. Fred made a >point of mentioning they have very low serial numbers, like 0745, which >I assume means they are of particular worth. All with pearl inlays and >other special touches for Joni. She even has her second electric guitar, >it seems the first was from Neil Young, but he liked the gift so much he >took it back. Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net http://home.revealed.net/Harpua ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:22:27 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: population NJC Latest studies show that there is indeed enough food to feed the entire world, but just barely, and within our lifetimes this will no longer be the case. We as a species have used up most of the resources on this planet. In my area, only 3% of the ancient redwoods remain, and it takes 1000 years to grow a big one. As Wally K mentioned, fresh water has been depleted (90% of the main groundwater aquifers beneath the US, which take hundreds of years to replentish.) Lost agricultural land measures in the thousands of acres per year, etc, etc. To name a few issues contingent on population. I conclude from this: There are too many people. A comfortable number would be about a tenth (or less) of the current population. A moritorium on breeding until we solve the famine, war, pollution, and other problems does not seem unreasonable. RR Bill Dollinger wrote: > > The human population is growing by approximately 95 million > people per year. If current trends continue, human numbers will > sail past 10 bilion in the middle of the next hundred years. The quality > of human life will certainly suffer. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:24:34 -0500 From: Richard Rice Subject: of marginal content, but I'm sending anyway... Sorry, no real Joni content but had to send anyway. I just read my post after sending it. Yipes! All the grammatical errors, please forgive them. I was too excited to read through. Next time I'll try to catch my breath and check my posts over. Hmmm, cost of a Parker, a trip to New Orleans for a priv Joni show, Paz's Joni Fest, 2 special edition Both Sides Now, a trip to S'katoon, a baby Collings, and the electric guitar Joni used for her Hejira tour...hmmmm, let's see, nine bucks in the wallet... you people should be ashamed of yourselves!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:30:21 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: population NJC > A moritorium on breeding until we solve the famine, war, > pollution, and other problems does not seem unreasonable. Compulsory neutering is a brilliant idea. We could start by preventing those we don't like from breeding-...ah but I think this would cause more problems than we are trying to solve. Reminds me of somthing or someone but I can't think who right now..... > RR > > Bill Dollinger wrote: > > > > The human population is growing by approximately 95 million > > people per year. If current trends continue, human numbers will > > sail past 10 bilion in the middle of the next hundred years. The quality > > of human life will certainly suffer. - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:32:45 EST From: Dmascall@aol.com Subject: musical biogs....(NJC) I think it was Michael Paz who mentioned a Joe Jackson song in passing..... which is my cue to recommend his autobiography "A cure for gravity", published last year. In true self-deprecating English style it covers the time before he achieved any success, and reads all the better for it IMO. Give it a try - particularly if you know South Hampshire at all (in the UK). Perhaps not surprisingly I'm all in favour of the catholic nature of posting which the NJC post encourages..... David Mascall ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:08:28 +0000 From: Martin Giles Subject: real good for free Hi everyone! Here's one for all the great musicians on the list. I was listening to the S&L version of Woodstock again the other day, and started thinking about how different it is to the original piano based version. Joni picked up the guitar, worked out one of her weird and wonderful tunings and recreated the song with a haunting new sound. I got to wondering if I could take another song of hers (namely real Good For Free) and do the same thing with it. So I picked up my guitar and fiddled for a few hours before giving up in disgust. I got nowhere. I couldn't work out how to go about it. At one point I was toying with DGDGBD, but it was too straight, it just wasn't 'minor'ish enough. So I was wondering, has Joni ever explained how she developes/creates a tuning for a song? Has she ever been asked about Woodstock in particular? Does she have a method, or is it a more improvised thing? (I read somewhere that Joni has worked out 'a system' of around fifty tunings, which sounds like an organised project.) Any thoughts? atb, Martin. In London. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:14:11 -0800 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: (JGC) Joni Guitar Content. Wow! - I loved reading your post and I undertand your excitement at such a great conversation. I'm was doing finances in my head too! I kinda figured that Fred must be pretty good friends with Joni when I found out that he is the 'Freddie' in No Apologies...BTW - I didn't even notice any grammar problems - the content was too exciting! Richard Rice wrote: > Hello everyone! > > I just had the most amazing, long, chat with Fred Walecki, the fellow > who built Joni's guitar!!!! O my gosh, o my gosh!! - -- Phyliss pward@lightspeed.net http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:07:49 -0600 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Sure Bob (NJC) Bob in SC wrote: Obviously Michael, you KNOW that Harper Lou is speaking only for himself here! :~)" Uh huh, sure Bob! Please see my previous message in reponse to the harpist. Paz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:04:05 -0600 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Oh Sure (NJC) - ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Lynch To: 'Michael Paz' ; Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 9:31 AM Subject: RE: JONI IN NEW ORLEANS!!!!!!! > Michael, > > Please, please, please invite us! > > Some of us missed the PWWAM concert. A lot more of us missed the LACE > opening. > > So we would really love to come to New Orleans! > > We'll behave ourselves, we promise! > > Harper Lou > > OH sure! That's what they all say. And then you get into town you mild mannered Clark Kent types and the next thing you know you are running down Bourbon St. naked screaming at the top of your lungs. I will put a notice out as soon as I hear. Best Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:46:14 -0600 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Re: JM in NOLA Howard wrote: > I would check your dates on the appearance of JM in NOLA. I am going to > the NATPE convention and the last day of the convention is the 27th of > Jan. No one will be there on the 28th, just exhibitors tearing down > their booths. > > In any case, if she is performing, I will be there for the convention > and I want to see her, so reserve for two, please. > > Howard M. Hi Howard- As I stated before, none of this is confirmed. I also noted that NATPE ends on the 27th because I am attending. Last year there was really nobody left on the last day, so I AM WORRIED. That is one of the reasons I told my boss it might me wise for us to pad the audience (as it were) to ensure a good crowd. I will do my best for all of you who have requested attendance. Peace Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:40:07 -0500 From: "Bill Dollinger" Subject: Re: real good for free The only thing I have repeatedly heard in this regard is that she tunes to her environment, finding "sonic references" from birds, water, wind etc. I don't think it is a method, since our joni would not be one to fall into any kind of formula. Bill - ----- Original Message ----- From: Martin Giles > > So I was wondering, has Joni ever explained how she developes/creates a > tuning for a song? Has she ever been asked about Woodstock in > particular? Does she have a method, or is it a more improvised thing? (I > read somewhere that Joni has worked out 'a system' of around fifty > tunings, which sounds like an organised project.) > > Any thoughts? > > atb, > Martin. In London. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:59:38 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: Crosby etc. NJC Here's some of my own ramblings on this topic: A young couple want to have children which is a quite normal, healthy desire. For obvious reasons (they are both female) they can't conceive by the usual methods and have to use artificial insemination which has given hope and life to many previously childless couples. They meet David Crosby and decide that he should be the father of the children instead of picking a stranger for the father based on some generic physical characteristics. Where's the problem here? As for announcing the father of the child, why not? By doing this, years of speculation are avoided and it will not be hanging over the children's heads as they grow older. Although it may be making huge waves at the moment, in six months time this will be a total non-issue, in twelve it will be forgotten. Better publicity now than speculation and scandal in the future, especially when the children are at an age where they can understand what is going on. As for Crosby "not being involved in parenting". This seems quite natural. He is only a "biological" father to these children. The children are fortunate enough to have two parents who love them which unfortunately is not always the case. It's not as though he has rejected the children outright. The real issue raised in the previous posts was really "Who is suitable as a parent?". Surely this is a case of whether the parent (or parents) can love and look after their children rather than whether they are single or gay or too young or too old? It seems that we were not judging Melissa on her suitability as a parent but rather on her choices of how she had her children. Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Tasmania ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 23:22:54 +0100 From: Winfried Huehn Subject: Re: reproducing NJC - -- chele wrote: > Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:32:18 EST > From: MHart16164@aol.com > Subject: Re: reproducing NJC > > In a message dated 1/11/2000 11:19:24 AM Central Standard Time, > SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: > > << << My problem is with the idea that we as a society encourage going > to great lengths to reproduce. >> >> > > People with money go to great lengths to reproduce; people without > money are > encouraged not to reproduce. Anyone ever seen the movie "Gattaca"? > Or read > the book "Brave New World"? Seems to me that it won't be long before > engineered babies will be better than the rest of us--as a matter of > fact, > there could potentially be a movement to "breed out" lesbianism, -one > thing > that facilitates the need to make "little Melissa's" in this fashion. I think your reference to "Brave New World" is very relevant here, but also generally speaking. In "Brave New World", the highest value is stability. People have sex frequently, and making love has become totally abstract from reproducing. People have lost their ability to feel strongly, because they get these feelings all the time -- sort of an inflationary effect. And when they would feel miserable about their inhumanely dull and senseless lives, they take "Soma" -- a drug which makes them feel happy all the time. It scares me to death to realize, how much of what Huxley had predicted in his novel has come true already. "Soma" -- What's Prozac about? When you tell people today that you think of yourselv as a melancholic person, they will very likely refer you to a psychiatrist because they think you've got a mental illness. The "Feelies" -- plenty of that kind of stuff around already (3D Stereo/Virtual Reality etc. etc.) Human Clones -- they will come sometime in the future (I hope I won't be around). Could this be what Joni has in mind when she sings "All emotions and abstractions -- we all live so close to that line and so far from satisfaction"? Winfried, quite often already feeling a bit like Bernard Marx, fearing he'll have to choose one day between becoming either Mustapha Mond or John The Savage ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:50:58 -0600 From: evian Subject: Melissa reproducing (njc) Well, just to add my two cents: This thread is just so interesting to me because I had much of this conversation via email with one of my best friends yesterday, who is on the Melissa List. This was all before I read these posts. My friend Michelle is a Melissa freak and is on the Melissa list, so I emailed her at work and we talked about the Crosby thing (our initial, fickle thoughts were both "he's so f**king ugly", which shows you the depth of our usual conversations). Anyway, while I was typing, I heard on the tv that Rosie adopted another baby, so I mentioned that, and we sent each other simultaneous messages along the same lines -- I said "Why doesn't she adopt the 10 year old crack baby with no legs" and she wrote at the same time "I'll be impressed when she adopts the 6 year old Hispanic child that is waiting for a home". Then, later on, before I read the jmdl, I was suddenly struck with the arrogance of our comments. Who the hell am I, or anyone else, to judge how anyone reproduces? Just because Rosie has money, and can afford to adopt these children and get through the red tape, why should I suddenly say "oh, she should adopt a hard to place child"? I mean, I would be overjoyed if wealthy people would adopt hard to place children, but just because Rosie has money shouldn't mean that she HAS to be Mia Farrow... you know what I mean? I don't argee with the use of money and wealth to speed up the adoption process, but until I am in the same position I can't judge. And the same with Melissa. As someone who has been kicking around the idea of having a baby (Calm down Ashara, I just said we've been kicking the idea around!), I know that if I was in Melissa and Julie's place I would try to have a biological child before adopting -- First, there are millions of people on waiting lists to adopt, and I like it that they didn't use their wealth to speed up the process. And, as for children who are hard to place, well again, who the hell am I to say that they should adopt these children? Who are we to judge? We can't single Missy and Julie out and say "oh, what about the poor kids at the group home" without doing the same thing to everyone else who has a baby. I think adoption is a wonderful thing, and my sister, who put her baby up for adoption when she was a teenager, still says it was the best decision she ever made. However, I think it is ridiculous that we should even care how Melissa and Julie had their children... but the whole announcing of fatherhood is a whole other ballgame. Evian np: Robert Plant -- "Principle of Moments" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 19:20:41 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: real good for free Martin asks: << So I was wondering, has Joni ever explained how she developes/creates a tuning for a song? >> Well, sure, but there are different methods which she has used. For instance, for Magdalene Laundries, she says that she went to the coast and tuned the guitar to the sounds the birds were making, because she wanted to write a happy song. Later that day, she was at the grocery store, saw the tabloids and the story of the Magdalene Laudries, and her happy bird song was changed into that not so happy number... There are probably as many different tuning stories as there tunings... Bob NP: Days of The New, "The Shelf in the Room" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 19:30:20 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Melissa reproducing (njc) In a message dated 1/11/00 4:49:41 PM US Central Standard Time, evian@sk.sympatico.ca writes: << I think adoption is a wonderful thing, and my sister, who put her baby up for adoption when she was a teenager, still says it was the best decision she ever made. However, I think it is ridiculous that we should even care how Melissa and Julie had their children >> And it's not like adoting a baby in the US is as easy as going to the local Wal-Mart; of the three couples I know that have adopted, ALL of them had to go outside our borders; one to China, one to Rumania, one to Russia. Bob NP: Macy Gray, "A Moment to Myself" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 19:58:54 EST From: Riveragelsinger@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #17 I like your analysis of "In France They Kiss..." I would only add that Mitchell's use of obviously real adolescents, including herself in a more innocent time of life, pushes an agenda at the heart of rock'n'roll, how in some other cultures sexuality is overtly healthier than what we have been taught or not taught..."removed from romance...broken and molded.." Is she just stereotyping French people, who can seem very discreet in public, as well as very warm and affectionate with their loved ones in public and private? Or is it just a banner cry to exemplify sexual, sensual exuberance? I believe she was in early middle age when she wrote this...early thirties?? Is she the girl in bloom or the fading woman? Is she either? What I love and hate is the deliberate obscurity and obliqueness with which she writes characters in her poetry, the things left out, the incomplete characters that my own imagination wants to, but cannot quite fill in. It feels like a night of fun and racing around that I've done both here and in France and a couple of other places. Running around and having fun..."thrilling..." to whatever words can turn us on. I suppose it's part of the reason I flipped open to this song, as a first to take a look at. Anybody have any other comments or insights about lyrics or music? What other work relates to sexuality? She has something on her last CD. And then there's "Come In From the Cold." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:36:16 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: The List (NJC) In a message dated 1/11/00 3:08:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, kb420@webtv.net writes: << Winefred posts her opinion: >If we only had JC here, the list would be >much more anonymous and less >appealing Of course there is the flipside to this, If we only had JC here, the list would be much less time consuming and more appealing. gdave >> i might be mistaken on this, but i believe winefred is a he, not a she. what i wonder is if the list is too time consuming and unappealing as it is, why do you stay? and that is not a suggestion to leave. it is a suggeston however, that people do mean something in your life, even if you like to think otherwise. even screen people who's gender is unimportant, like say maybe, if i'm not mistaken...winefred. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:24:11 -0700 From: Kate Subject: this saskatchewan girl loves quebec You called? >Hell no... not on the prairies, anyway. Here you see bigtime resentment >against Quebec, There is anti-Quebec sentiment, but you won't notice it in anyone who's been out east and lived there for awhile. I lived in the french-speaking northern New Brunswick and travelled through and visited Quebec, as well as living in a semi-communal situation with 1/3 of the people being from Quebec. I speak French fairly well (the Acadian version of it, anyway!) and have fond memories of my time there and the people I knew. You won't hear any anti-french sentiment from this girl. I live in a half-french community right now, as a matter of fact, so I hear French spoken on the street often and there is a French-speaking school here as well as the English one. I regret that I rarely speak it myself. I would love to live in a totally French culture again, so that is all I would hear and speak. I love the language and the culture as well, but I don't know how it compares to France's, having never been there. But the structure of language does affect thought.... >and French really is a small minority of Saskatchewan >culture... I'd say the biggest ethnic groups here are Aboriginal, >Ukrainian, and Germans... A lot of Scandinavians where I come from ( the Parkland region of Ssaskatchewan, not the Prairies, but people rarely make the distinction) - - Norwegian, Swede, Finnish - as well as many Poles and Czechs; not that many Germans, and of course most of the Aboriginal people live on the reserves if they are not in the poorer parts of the larger cities. In my hometown (of about 200 people) there was only one native Indian family in the time I was growing up, and they were on a farm. And one French family, from France. How do those ratios sound? >I did a paper on this once, and I think that >is what the results were. You are probably right in overall numbers, which might not reflect the different ratios in certain pockets of the province. >Anyway, I think it's safe to say that Joni's >love of all things French doesn't stem from just being Canadian. >Basically, French Canada is like a foreign land to most people on the >prairies. I dunno, Kate in Alberta, you are from Saskatchewan too, what >do you think? I can't think of any French influence apart from a few >French Metis settlements around Duck Lake.Evian I agree with you. Most people I know, from here, haven't been to Quebec or been influenced by it. For many, their only experience of French is the language class they were stuck with at school (and a teacher who couldn't pronounce French properly in most cases anyway) and lately the emotionally-charged politics connected with the Quebec government's stated goal of separating from Canada. The Francophone people whose pioneer ancestors settled out here in the west ( they consider themselves French from France, not from Quebec) don't support the separatist agenda and neither do the Francophone people who are here from Nova Scotia. More than you wanted to know? Joni's appreciation for the romance of France and things French probably comes from being there herself. That's my guess. Kate of the North, who can't even consider joining the JMDL audience in New Orleans this month ($$$) but will happily relish every report on the exulted event, and who WILL be in Saskatoon in June come hell or high water. Yippee!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:59:50 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: CSN - Crosby Sperm Needed ? (NJC) Lou the Harper wrote: > How can I teach Annie that we shouldn't judge people for what they do in > their private lives, when they put it on the front pages of the newspaper? > That's why I would be offended if I were gay -- politically, gays and > lesbians are telling people it's wrong to judge them based on their PRIVATE > choices. So, why would Melissa publicize an unorthodox arrangement that is > bound to upset people of several different religions and political > ideologies? As public figures, just how do you propose that they could have kept it quiet? Julie turns up pregnant & delivers a baby. Without some kind of explanation can you imagine the field day of speculation the press would have had with that?! I'm sure there would have been rumors that Julie was sleeping around on Melissa and wasn't really a lesbian and god only knows what else the tabloids would have come up with. 'Space Aliens Kidnap & Impregnate Melissa Etheridge's Lesbian Lover'. Wouldn't that be nice? What choice did they have but to come out & say at least how it was done if not who the father was? I also suspect the whole David Crosby thing may be a red herring. I really kind of hope it is because, like some others have said, it really would be an awful thing for those children to grow up thinking their father doesn't want to be involved in their lives. Maybe this is a major glitch in this whole procedure of having children. Sooner or later they are most probably going to want to know who their father is if they don't know already. And if the father doesn't want to be involved, what then? On the other hand, if the father does want to play an active role, then I think it's kind of miraculous & wonderful....seems like everybody wins. Mark in Seattle looking at life from both sides always, it seems ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:28:46 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Amour, mama, not cheap display! > Perhaps, but I think it's safe to assume she's spent some time in > France: "Sitting in a park in Paris France..." (California). > > Kathleen > But the song is about the teen-aged Joni. Long before she became famous & went anywhere outside of Canada. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:48:07 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: NJC the year 2000 - hype and BSN I was maybe five or six when I first did the math and figured out that I'd be alive when the year turned to 2000, and I dreaded it... ...what I dreaded was a word that I did not know then, I know that I called it something else those 40+ years ago , but if I can be anacronistic, what I was afraid of was the HYPE. And so it came to pass. And the hype came, and it went, and the hype will someday come again. What I find now is that the dates with 19__ at the front now seem so far away. Was it really way back in 1999 that I bought my last Joni album? So I fixed that, ordered BSN from cdnow (and as always, used the link through the Joni page). I was not expecting the price of $43 something bucks. I ordered it, but why the pricey price? I suggest that we set aside 8-10 February with some ICQ or Instant Messenger chat room and we all open and play our BSNs together, kind of like my buddies and I did in 1968 when in real not cyber life we all ceremoniously opened and played our White Albums (the Beatles, for the children here). We need some real-time sharing for a couple of days there, and lacking a commune or the sometimes suggested traveling (magic?) bus, that is the best that I can suggest. (the Rev) Vince, taking a second collection on Sunday for BSN ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:52:37 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: NJC the year 2000 - hype and BSN - --- Vince Lavieri wrote: snip > What I find now is that the dates with 19__ at the front now seem so far > away. Was it really way back in 1999 that I bought my last Joni album? > So I fixed that, ordered BSN from cdnow (and as always, used the link > through the Joni page). I was not expecting the price of $43 something > bucks. I ordered it, but why the pricey price? snip > (the Rev) Vince, taking a second collection on Sunday for BSN Hey Vince - is that so you can buy your copy "Tax Free'?? ;-) Brian, who couldn't resist that good-natured needling (with Joni content, no less) np: Jenna's 9th grade World History assignment being read to me ===== "No paper thin walls, no folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:52:41 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: CSN - Crosby Sperm Needed ? (NJC) Mark wrote: >I also suspect the whole David Crosby thing may be a red >herring. If it is a red herring, all concerned have certainly gone to elaborate lengths to fool people. There is an in-depth story in Rolling Stone and the front cover photograph is something else - an exquisitely posed family portrait of Julie, Melissa, the babies Bailey and Becket, Croz and his wife Jan that looks like a Raphaelite/Renaissance-era painting. If they are fooling the public in order to end speculation as to the identity of the 'real" father" that somehow seems even worse as far as the interests of these children and Crosby's young son. They state that they want to come clean and bring it all out in the open. If this is a grand deception, I would think it may make for new problems down the road. > I really kind of hope it is because, like some >others have said, it really would be an awful thing for those >children to >grow up thinking their father doesn't want to be >involved in their lives. Maybe this is a major glitch in this whole >procedure of having children. Sooner or later they are most probably going to want to know who their father is if they >don't know already. And if the father doesn't want to be > involved, what then? On the other hand, if the father does want to play an active role, then I think it's kind of >miraculous & wonderful....seems like everybody wins. I guess we cannot know for sure exactly what Crosby means when he says he will not be involved. Perhaps he thinks this is an unselfish stance, but I'm not sure that will be well-understood by these children and his own children down the road. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 19:05:34 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Fw: Amour, mama, not cheap display! Kathleen asked me to forward her most articulate response to the list as she neglected to do so. > > Mark or Travis wrote: > > > > Perhaps, but I think it's safe to assume she's spent some time in > > > France: "Sitting in a park in Paris France..." (California). > > > > > > Kathleen > > > > > But the song is about the teen-aged Joni. Long before she became > > famous & went anywhere outside of Canada. > > > > Mark in Seattle > > Yah, BUT...:-) It's written later, when she would have had experience > in France, and could easily translate it back to the time she's writing > about. I don't think that she necessarily adheres to the range of her > experience in the time she is writing about, but could insert it > retroactively for the sake of poetic potence. In this case, the France > image isn't simply an "argument" against her mother, but is used as an > analogy to frame the whole phenomenon of youth liberating themselves > from parental tyranny: "In the war of independence" to me refers both > to the youthful war of independence from parents and to the French > revolution where the populus ("youth") were fighting for freedom from > the despots ("Parents"). My point is that the reference runs to deep to > make whether or not France was a part of her teenage experience an > issue. > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 22:05:27 EST From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Both Sides, Now doesn't come cheap! In a message dated 1/11/00 6:45:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, revrvl@pathwaynet.com writes: << I was not expecting the price of $43 something bucks. I ordered it, but why the pricey price? >> Joni's new CD just appeared in our data base. (if you order from CD Now, you get your music shipped from my company's warehouse). I, too, noticed the hefty price tag, MSLP is about $44. The database has little available notes beyond the street date of 2/8/00 and the notation: "limited edition, contains original lithographs." Not sure what that means, but I've been checking with anyone whose debits I've graciously credited over the past few years to see what's what and beg a favor or promo. More news as it develops. MG - back to lurk mode np: My son's hacking cough ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 19:09:32 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: BSN pre-release order Rev. Vince wrote: >So I fixed that, ordered BSN from cdnow (and as always, >used the link through the Joni page). I was not expecting >the price of $43 something bucks. I ordered it, but why the >pricey price? You may have been offlist when some of us reported about the Special Edition BSN being released Feb. 8th. Some of us saw the prototype the night of the LACE exhibit. As Joni describes it in the KCSN interview, the CD and separate, miniature lithos of her four new paintings are packaged in an "aubergine (deep purple) taffeta-covered round candy box." It is really wonderful and I think the suggested retail price of $49.99 is not bad considering the beauty and detail in it. I'm so stoked over it I'm going to get two! Also, Robbie Cavolina made some mention of more surprises in it that he would not disclose to us. I think you will be happy when you see it. The "regular" jewel box CD is not being released until sometime in March. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:15:14 -0600 From: pattihaskins@mindspring.com Subject: NJC: Melissa story in Rolling Stone mag Here' s the Rolling Stone article and link: http://rollingstone.tunes.com/sections/magazine/text/excerpt833.asp?afl=rsn Melissa’s Secret The name of the father and the making of a new American family By Jancee Dunn It was beginning to get ridiculous: the speculation . . . the rumors . . . the jokes. For three long years, Melissa Etheridge and her partner, filmmaker Julie Cypher, were asked the same question over and over: Who is the biological father of your two children? Once it was a tad amusing to the couple. Then, with the release of Etheridge’s album Breakdown, her first in more than three years, the badgering intensified. On a recent Late Show appearance, David Letterman had a go. "Now, I’m no geneticist, but in some regard there must have been Daddy somewhere," he said, leaning forward. "Who’s Daddy?" "Well, you were on the short list for a minute," Etheridge hedged. Letterman pressed on. "Just tell me, who’s Daddy? Who’s Daddy?" Etheridge threw up her hands in mock exasperation. "All right," she said, "it’s Dan Quayle." Rumors flew on the Internet. Was it Brad Pitt? He’s a friend of theirs. Bruce Springsteen? Etheridge jumped onstage with him at a New Jersey show. Maybe he’s the dad! How about Tom Hanks? Is it Tom Hanks? Cut to a Time magazine interview. "Did Brad Pitt father your children?" columnist Joel Stein wanted to know. "It is a man, right? . . . And he’s famous?" Yes, she said. "So it’s Brad Pitt. . . . Come on, it’s better if it ’s Brad Pitt. It’s good for his career, for your career." "We just got so tired of this secret," says Etheridge, who didn’t even tell the rest of her family the father’s name until the couple’s first child, Bailey, was a year old. "It wears you out. And keeping this big secret goes against how we are choosing to live our lives: very openly." There was also the consideration that Bailey, now three, will attend school soon: "I didn’t want my kids to ever be in a position where someone could come up to them and know something they don’t." "Because Bailey was starting to ask," adds Cypher. "And you know what else? It was becoming a joke, more than it should have been." Thus, after much discussion, the two have decided to reveal the identity of their two children’s biological father. It is a man whose name, it is safe to say, has never come up on a short list of candidates. As you can see, it is – of all people – David Crosby, founding member of the Byrds and Crosby, Stills and Nash, a rock & roll bad boy with a four-decade-long career, a wife of twelve years and a thirty-five-year-old son. Since this will require some time, let’s settle in at the couple’s spacious home in Los Angeles, a 1926 Tudor filled with sunlight, honey-colored wood and antiques. It is a very different home from the one that the pair lived in four years ago, with its careful display of antique match strikers and its Louvre-size collection of dog photos. Now, the effluvia of children are everywhere: half-drunk glasses of juice in plastic cups, Elmo in various permutations, milk and bananas on the grocery list. The match strikers have been relegated to a glass case. As for the dog photos, "Bruce Springsteen once gave me the best parenting advice," says Cypher. "He said, ‘You know, all of a sudden, your dogs are just gonna be dogs.’" Cypher and Etheridge give a tour of their abode, pointing out a black baby grand piano in the sitting room before moving on to the toy-strewn family room. "This is the room we live in," says Cypher. Against one wall is a row of seats from the community theater in Etheridge’s hometown of Leavenworth, Kansas, that the establishment gave to her after she made a donation to help restore it. The two point out a Maori school desk they found in New Zealand. "We love, love, love to antique-shop," says Cypher. Bailey races into the room. "Look at me!" she cries, hurling herself onto a beanbag chair. "I’m just a laughing frog!" One-year-old Beckett, meanwhile, is being fed by a nanny. The children, whose faces are sweet and apple cheek ed, could be lifted out of a Victorian postcard. "Beckett looks just like David, doesn’t he?" says Etheridge, looking on happily, a rock-chick mom in a blue corduroy jacket with silver studs. She produces Crosby’s autobiography, which contains a baby photo from back in the day. The resemblance is eerie. The pair continues the tour upstairs. "Here’s the bedroom," says Etheridge. Sun streams onto the floral carpet, a pair of cats sleeps in a chair. "Look at this!" Etheridge says, grabbing a remote control. With a barely perceptible hum, the curtains whiz shut and the room darkens. "That’s our favorite thing about the Four Seasons in New York." They pass a home gym (with a chandelier) and head to Melissa’s office. "Look what Julie gave me for my birthday," says Etheridge. "She took a lot of my T-shirts and made it into a quilt." It is a patchwork, says Cypher, of places they’ve been, "places where we’ve had too many cocktails." "Huey Lewis," says one square. "That was one of my first tours," says Etheridge. "I opened for them in Europe." She gazes at it. "I love this," she tells Cypher. They head downstairs and plop down on a couch in the kitchen. The kids are off to take a nap, and the women are ready to tell their tale. It all began in Hawaii, they say, where the two were vacationing. They dropped by to visit David Crosby and his missis, Jan, whom they had met a while back at a show. "We’d see them every now and then at a party, stuff like that," says Etheridge. As the group chatted, the subject of children came up, and Etheridge and Cypher mentioned their dilemma: Eggs they had. Sperm was another matter. "And Jan said, ‘What about David?’ " says Etheridge. "It came from her, which was the best, most perfect way." They thought it over for a year before they made the call. "For one, he’s musical, which means a lot to me, you know, and I admire his work," says Etheridge. "And he has his own life, has his own family." A few questions: What do the kids call you? "I am Mama, Julie is Mamo," says Etheridge. Not to put too fine a point on it, but how did the fertilization occur? "It was artificial insemination, done privately," says Cypher. "We did not use a turkey baster," adds Etheridge. "No kitchen implements were involved," says Cypher. It was decided that she should carry the babies because of Ether-idge’s work. "I was more the homebody, so to speak," Cypher says. "And I’m a health nut, a fanatic, so I was really good at making babies." Are the Crosbys the kids’ godparents? "No, that would be our dearest friends," she says, pointing to a picture of a smiling man and woman. "Beckett’s role model," she says, pointing to the man. "For people who are worried about the male role model," says Etheridge. "So many people are worried about that male role model." "Sometimes they have a hard time wrapping their head around the fact that this can work," says Cypher. Some more questions. How do your families and friends feel about this? "Both of our families are so cool about it," says Etheridge. "They’re grandkids," says Cypher with a laugh. "They don’t care how they get ’em – they just want ’em." When the couple told Steven Spielberg and Kate Capshaw, with whom they’ve socialized on both coasts for the past two years, "I thought it was fabulous," Capshaw says, "after I said, ‘Who’s David Crosby?’" She laughs uproariously. "The name rang a bell! Oh, God. As they sat there with their expectant faces, right? I’m like, ‘I know he was part of a big group that did well.’" She laughs again. "I was listening to Claudine Longet back then, let’s be honest." Does Crosby share parental duties? "It’s not a parental thing for David," says Etheridge. "David and Jan totally understood that we are the parents." "So we see them every once in a while," says Cypher. "Julie is adopted," says Etheridge. Coming from that place – wanting to know who her real parents were – she felt it was important that her children know where they came from. "Four or five months ago, when she was two and a half, Bailey said, ‘Do I have a daddy?’ I said, ‘Well, yes, you do.’ Pause. ‘Well, who is he?’ I said, ‘You know our friend David, with the funny mustache?’" Satisfied, Bailey moved on to the next subject. Relieved, so did Cypher. Was there a concern about the father’s well-known past, which includes prodigious drug use? Cypher and Etheridge did their homework on this matter and were convinced there was no danger to their children. We asked our own expert, New York urologist Mark Stein, who says, "Sperm are made all the time, and they take three months to mature. So the sperm that’s coming out today was made three months ago. If you change your lifestyle, it will take three months for the sperm to reflect it. Also, sperm are self-selecting, unlike eggs, so damaged sperm usually don’t make it." Why break the news here? Etheridge and Cypher decided to come to Rolling Stone with their story after the two ran into editor and publisher Jann S. Wenner at VH1’s Concert of the Century last October in Washington, D.C. "Julie was on a mission to tell everybody," says Etheridge. "She told Jann, and I made some sort of joke. I said, ‘Oh, yeah, let it be known in Rolling Stone.’ And I remember leaving there going, ‘Huh. Well, that’s an idea. It’s musical, which is really cool, it’s funky, and we could tell the story the way we wanted to, before the world – well, I don’t know about the world but whoever is interested in it – picked up on it and did what they were going to do." Contributing editor Jancee Dunn explored the lives of teenage girls in RS 825. For the complete story, check out RS 833, on newsstands this week. Patti in Dallas ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #18 **************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?