From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #522 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Saturday, November 20 1999 Volume 04 : Number 522 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni voted top 20 ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Jon Hendricks (njc) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Cher (was Joni voted top 20) VLJC [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Robert Altman films ( was Cher) NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] The "Dog Eat Dog" Musical Appreciation Society presents ... [evian ] Jane Siberry [Emily Kirk Gray ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:09:53 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni voted top 20 > Personally I think Cher is a good actress. How many Oscar winners for their > acting are also making hit pop records? her music doesn't make me think 'i must > buy thast' but some are enjoable, especially now she is into techno beats. I > would see a film for her. I thought Mask was excellent and she astounding. > I forgot about 'Mask'. Thank you, Colin. Another memorable performance. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:31:03 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Jon Hendricks (njc) > One of Jon Hendricks' most ambitious works was his collaboration with the > great jazz composer (and my teacher) George Russell. NEW YORK, NEW YORK was > released in 1960 on Decca; Hendricks wrote and recited an extensive rhymed > narration and George conducted an all-star big band doing his own works and a > fabulous arrangement of "Manhattan" (Rodger & Hart). > > Jon's lyric probably did not originate the phrase "the city so nice they had > to name it twice" but it was the first time I (age 19) had ever heard it. > Another memorable couplet alluded to Charlie Parker: > > Lack of acceptance is less like something to hide from and > more like something.....Bird died from. It was just amazing watching this man work. David, do you know if this record is available on cd? > > The band included Coltrane, Art Farmer, Bob Brookmeyer, Benny Golson, Bill > Evans > and Max Roach. > > D LAHM, wishing there were time to revisit this and so many other great jazz > sounds I haven't heard in years. Thank you so much, David, for this info and also for what you wrote about Eddie Jefferson. It's great to have somebody on the list who knows about jazz. I know next to nothing about it. My scant knowledge comes mostly from listening to Billie Holiday records and reading the liner notes of those records. I wish you the best of luck in the Grammy race. 'Jazz Takes on Joni Mitchell' deserves recognition, imo. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 21:37:09 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Cher (was Joni voted top 20) VLJC Mark or Travis wrote: > And if you have any doubts about her talent as > an actress, rent 'Silkwood' or 'Come Back to the Five and Dime, Jimmy > Dean, Jimmy Dean' or 'Moonstruck'. She is a worthy co-star for Meryl > Streep in 'Silkwood' and she shines in each of these films. Come Back to the Five and Dime, Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean is a Robert Altman film and I try to see all of his pictures. He is known for unusual casting. (Lyle Lovett as a demented German baker in "Short Cuts" for example.) Jimmy Dean came out in the late 70s, I think, or very, very early 80s and I saw it becuase it because it was an Altman film, expecting to not like Cher at all. I remember walking out of the theatre stunned that Cher could act so well! Sandy Dennis was also in this movie... and for the life of me, who were the other (I think) two actors, or was their just one other? Mark, can you help refresh my memory? (the Rev) Vince NP: Ball and Chain from Monterey Pop by Janis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 21:38:28 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Cher (was Joni voted top 20) VLJC I sent the last post with no NJC in the subject: sorry! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 02:36:33 +0000 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Cher (was Joni voted top 20) VLJC Mark or Travis wrote: > When various people have praised Madonna for being so original and > innovative I've been completely unable to figure out why. What would > she be without her a producer? The songs I've seen performed from the > much-praised 'Ray of Light' seem like the same old same old with > different window dressing to me. But that's what Madonna is, as far > as I'm concerned. I still haven't figured out how acting out every > het-male fantasy in the book is sexually liberating. But a lot of > people seem to think when Madonna does it she is somehow freeing us > from our sexual hang-ups. Despite my "pro-Madonna" post on this thread recently, I can totally understand what you're saying here, Mark. Yes, she has pretty much kept to a certain formula, and merely altered the "window dressing" to keep with the changing times and trends. However, that in itself is something that - to be done well - takes a certain panache and ability. Ray Of Light could have been clumsy...embarrassing even. The combination of decent songs, and a perfectly-judged production by the various people she brought in to the project, turned it into a triumph. Erotica and Bedtime Stories were not quite so successful, either artistically or commercially, yet still I find myself drawn to them again and again. So, what is it..if it's not a sexual attraction thing I have with her? That might have explained it, but I have always been baffled how she is regarded as so "sexy" and "beauitful". A male friend of mine thinks she's the most perfect woman ever! I just don't get that aspect of her. She just doesn't do a thing for me in that respect. It must be the songs, then. Once I begin to list the hits, and even some of the better album cuts, I realise just how impressive a collection of material she has amassed. Of course, she's had "assistance" virtually at every step, but there must be something she herself has contributed to make her so incredibly successful and popular. > I've often been tempted to think of Madonna as the 80's & 90's version > of Cher. In her way Cher has been just as provocative as Madonna. > But ultimately I think Cher has a lot more talent and heart than > Madonna will ever have. As Lou pointed out, her television work was > entertaining and fun. And if you have any doubts about her talent as > an actress, rent 'Silkwood' or 'Come Back to the Five and Dime, Jimmy > Dean, Jimmy Dean' or 'Moonstruck'. She is a worthy co-star for Meryl > Streep in 'Silkwood' and she shines in each of these films. Madonna > has yet to make much of a mark with her acting. Maybe there is some > generational prejudice on my part, but I just don't think Madonna is > anything to get excited about. Cher's gutsiness, honesty and talent > on the other hand are admirable to me. Oh, I agree. Cher and Madonna just aren't cut from the same cloth at all. They are not really comparable. Cher the actress, and Cher the singer, are both very good in my mind. She does the two with great style and makes very judicious choices on her projects. Tina Turner has the same "quality control" with her albums, and it's proven a good move for both of them. It's A Man's World, from 1995, is a very underrated Cher album. The range of material and styles is excellent, and well executed. One thing's for sure....I think being stuck in a room or elevator with Cher would be a far preferable prospect than it would with Madonna. As you say Mark, Cher's just got something more "admirable" in her personality, that I think would give her a greater warmth and make her better company. > Ok I will throw a bit of Joni content in here. Neither Cher nor > Madonna have the musical genius to compose, arrange and play the > incredible music that Joni creates. But Joni doesn't act in movies > like Cher does or promote herself as successfully as Madonna does. > They're different animals and each has different strengths. So I > guess we should give each of them her due (even Madonna....I guess...) Exactly. A very well-balanced view. Even if you have called Joni an "animal"... ;-) Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:41:39 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Cher (was Joni voted top 20) VLJC > Sandy Dennis was also in this movie... and for the life of me, who were > the other (I think) two actors, or was their just one other? Mark, can > you help refresh my memory? The movie starred Sandy Dennis, Cher & Karen Black. It also featured Kathy Bates before anybody had ever heard of her. Sudi Bond was also in the film. She played Juanita, the proprietor of the Five & Dime. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:44:43 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Cher (was Joni voted top 20) VLJC > Exactly. A very well-balanced view. Even if you have called Joni an > "animal"... ;-) > > Jason. > > Well I guess that proves I'm not one of them there 'fanatics', eh? Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 19:12:57 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Cher (was Joni voted top 20) VLJC Jason wrote: > One thing's for sure....I think being stuck in a room or elevator with > Cher would be a far preferable prospect than it would with Madonna. As you > say Mark, Cher's just got something more "admirable" in her personality, > that I think would give her a greater warmth and make her better company. I think Cher is appealing because she is sort of an enduring character. She's over the top but she's doing her own thing and she's always herself. I would compare her more to Dolly Parton than Madonna in that respect. Even though I snickered at her music in the early days, along with her schtick with Sonny, there was never anything unlikeable about her. Every now and then I read something about Joni seeming to be friends with her. There is probably that Geffen connection (Geffen managed Cher and also lived with her for awhile after the break-up with Sonny) plus I have the sense that Joni would like Cher because she is an original, whether or not you care for her particular style, and I think that is what many people find admirable. As for Madonna, well....I have actually liked some of her music, but as a person she strikes me as almost frighteningly hard. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 22:12:16 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Robert Altman films ( was Cher) NJC Rev. Vince writes: << Come Back to the Five and Dime, Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean is a Robert Altman film and I try to see all of his pictures. He is known for unusual casting. >> Robert Altman films are a favorite in this house too! Cher, Sandy Dennis, and Karen Black (as the tranny) did a fantastic job. My other favorite Altman film is "3 Women" with Sissy Spacek, Shelley Duvall, and Janice Rule. To this day I insist on serving "Cheese Whiz and Sociables" at my dinner parties. :~) Rent these two movies if you haven't seen them!!! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 21:37:51 -0600 From: evian Subject: The "Dog Eat Dog" Musical Appreciation Society presents ... That SCJoni dude wrote about DED: > the production leaves some things to be desired, however, sort of like a pretty girl who is overly made up so as to camouflage her true beauty... > > Well, I just gotta say that sometimes it's a nice change for even beautiful people to throw on some kabuki make-up! I still think it was cool that Joni and Dolby "teamed up" on DED, and as you all know, I love love love this album. For me, the production actually contributes to my enjoyment of the album. Hell, I bet even Joni and Nile Rodgers would have been able to throw something good together. And as for music around DED's time, there WAS a lot of crappola (I am still chuckling about the Night Ranger reference Bob... forgot all about them!) but there was Kate Bush, Cocteau Twins, the Cure, New Order, Echo and the Bunnymen, Prefab Sprout, etc. who WERE coming up with great, great music... and yes, I'd love to kick Huey Lewis's annoying "hip to be square" ass with ya Bob! Evian np: Eight Arms to Hold You -- Veruca Salt P.S. I have to admit... I have Sigue Sigue Sputnik on cassette lurking in the crawlspace under my stairs... Good Lord...... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 22:55:03 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Cher (was Joni voted top 20) NJC In a message dated 11/19/99 9:13:58 PM US Central Standard Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << Even though I snickered at her music in the early days, along with her schtick with Sonny, there was never anything unlikeable about her. >> And I recall that schtick, she was one of the first to overtly flaunt her sexuality as a controlling mechanism...Sonny would say "You're gonna get it", to which she would respond "You're not!". I thought that was pretty risque for its day. And of course don't forget that she also was brave enough to make what may be the worst record ever..."Allman & Woman"... Bob NP: Paz, "Song For Sharon" (checking out Jerry's copy) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 02:28:27 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: ouch! NJC this is so strange! i saw this leno rerun in new york the night before i traveled to ashara's!!! talk about synchro!!!!!!!!!! my favorite story, though, was about the woman who was taken to a hospital cafeteria for dinner on her first date. wallyk - ----- Mensaje original ----- De: catman Para: jmdl Enviado: Jueves 18 de Noviembre de 1999 18:57 Asunto: ouch! NJC > This was on the Leno show (9-7-99). Jay went > > into the audience to find the most embarrassing first > > date that a woman ever had. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 01:43:16 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Kirk Gray Subject: Jane Siberry hi all. i have to say i agree with bob about jane's performance at "joni's jazz" -- i was there and generally was ecstatic about the whole evening -- there was an electric vibe and it was very exciting to be around so many respected musicians showing their love for joni. (i was absolutely blown away by p.m. dawn's version of "sharon" -- spookily comforting, quiet and shivery and mournful.) but as much as i like jane siberry's work, i was irritated and kind of offended that she held a piece of paper during both of her songs and sang from it the entire time! i understand they all must have been very nervous, especially with joni sitting in the third row -- but, come on now! it gave me (and my group) a sense that she was unprofessional and kind of half-assed about the project. i can't believe it would be so hard to memorize two songs, especially since she'd known which ones she'd be singing for sometime. just my opinion... - --emily ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #522 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! 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