From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #521 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Friday, November 19 1999 Volume 04 : Number 521 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Fans and Fanatics ["Ross, Les" ] Re: Ukeleles - Paved Paradise ["Kakki" ] Re: Refuge of the Roads video/ Big yellow taxi [MP123A321@aol.com] Being Glib about Sib [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] NJC Ramblin on about shopping for a guitar etc. (long) ["Chuck EIsenhardt] Re: fans and fanatics [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: The "Dog Eat Dog" Musical Appreciation Society presents ... [SCJoniGu] Re: lyrics (NJC) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Refuge of the Roads video/ Big yellow taxi [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Being Glib about Sib [Jerry Notaro ] Re: fans and fanatics [catman ] Re: fans and fanatics [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: The "Dog Eat Dog" Musical Appreciation Society presents ... [Don Rowe] Re: fans and fanatics [Siresorrow@aol.com] absolute joni ["Raffaele Malanga" ] Today in Joni History - November 20 [Today in Joni History ] Paul Bowles (NJC) [David Wright ] Re: The "Dog Eat Dog" Musical Appreciation Society presents ... [SCJoniGu] Re: Joni voted top 20 ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Frou-frou foxes... (NJC) ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: JAZZ TAKES and the Grammys ["Catherine McKay" ] RE: Joni voted top 20 [Louis Lynch ] Re: Joni voted top 20 [catman ] RE: Costing a Mint. And a half. (njc) ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Canucks (njc) ["Catherine McKay" ] RE: Jimmy Webb, Part 2 (NJC) ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: absolute joni [waytoblu@mindspring.com] Gold CD availability ["Robert Youngken" ] Re: CD prices (SJC) [catman ] tonight, tonight ["Jennifer L. Nodine" ] FW: Odd Day (OT) [jan gyn ] Re: NJC Gigs of the Year NJC - (but Sib content!) [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: (NJC) Come In From The Cold [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Paul Bowles (NJC) [Dflahm@aol.com] Jon Hendricks (njc) [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: Cher (was Joni voted top 20) VLJC ["Mark or Travis" Subject: Fans and Fanatics Hi again everyone - thanks for making my mornings at work a quiet and private delight. I got into Joni at the tender-ish age of 15. That she was able through her words and music to burst open the self obsessing nature of youth, is something for which I will be eternally grateful. Grateful too, for when many years later and she was touring the WTRF album, she managed to play a couple of dates in Edinburgh, Scotland. A friend (with a car) and I drove through the Highlands to catch her on the second night and after all the years of adoring this extraordinary insightful artist I was terribly excited to be seeing her playing live. The Local Press review of the first night, however, was less than enthusiastic. Her band made the rather sad mistake (sic) of playing too loud and 'band-like'. Tut! tut! :-). Anyway this pissed our Ms Mitchell and big time. She came on for the second night and made no effort to conceal her displeasure at her ungrateful Scottish audience. Mr Landau in particular doing his level best to knock out the top end of our collective hearing range and burying Song for Sharon. She was a miserable goat for the best part of the first half of the gig, only settling into a more benign mood once she did her solo acoustic / dulcimer set. But again not before she regaled us all with some sour little anecdote about a Scottish family she grew up alongside who were renounded in the area for their mean-ness. You can imagine how well that went down with a hall full of 'sweaty socks' (sweaty socks = Jocks = Scots - we have to thank the English for that epithet). Indeed it went down about as well as that lead balloon about which she was to sing many years later. My reaction was typical knee-jerk (how our words reveal us......jerk) and insulted to the point of apoplexy. How could this person adored from afar and so central to the emotional development of of this Highland 'yoot' - (sprinkling of irony at this point.) - be so horrible?!? Well, time is a healer and it brought home to me that here was a person with feet of clay. Someone with whom I would and could disagree. Someone I could dislike. So where did that leave the music. Well I sulked in the way that men are wont to do for a couple of weeks and slowly, slowly got back to her songs. l listened to them again and this time I was a little more discerning. It set apart the person from the work. Something all artist would prefer, it is safe to assume. The cult of personality being the bane of our society still and probably forever. I love Joni's work. Her Music and her paintings. In interview, she is always worth listening to if not always able to be agreed with - I can't think of an instance at this point, but it needs to be said. IMHO I still maintain that the musical setting for the concert tour for WTRF was mistaken. The metallic band sound serving the cross section of her song-writing least well. What I have seen of her artwork, and indeed her music, she succeeds when there is what I can only describe as a lightness of touch at work. Thinking of her work which is determined to 'rock' she has only ever managed it (again IMHO) on Black Crow and Underneath the Streetlight. (That second one - just a boundless joy). Courting Sparks here, methinks! :-) Yes I think pretty well all of us on this List are quite capable of disabusing ourselves of fanaticism for Ms M and this was the story of my 'development' in this matter. Les (in London) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 01:45:17 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Ukeleles - Paved Paradise Paul asked: > Did I dream it or did I hear Joni say (on the Miles of Aisles > tour?) that she was referring to Hawaii as the paradise that got paved in > Big Yellow Taxi? She has often said that she wrote it in Hawaii but in an L.A. radio interview from 1994 I finally heard a bit more of the story. She had gone to Hawaii for her first visit and was meeting up with Graham there. She expected it to really be an undeveloped paradise but when she arrived and looked out her hotel window all she saw was a big parking lot. She said that the song became the biggest hit in Hawaii and was played on the radio there constantly for years. She then went on to say that it was so popular that it influenced the sound of all the modern popular music groups from Hawaii and that you can hear a bit of BYT in all their songs. She also said that she felt they had been way too over-influenced by her. Well, at this point I was starting to feel like her ego was becoming a bit overblown. So I put on some of my old Cecilio & Kapono and Kalapana albums and sure enough there it is! Amazing. > PaulC > who can't spell 'fleas' Actually "flees" is probably the better word! ;-) Kakki > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 05:21:13 EST From: MP123A321@aol.com Subject: Re: Refuge of the Roads video/ Big yellow taxi I agree with Deb about Banquet from ROTR video and will go further and say I like it better than original FTR recording. Now, what is the title of the B&W film that is spliced in that video segment? About "Heard it through the grapevine" live. That is on a live tape (circulating) from Verona Italy and a vinyl bootleg from same venue. And about Big Yellow Taxi / Hawaii, I know when she perormed there in the early 70's, she sang about "spots on pineapples". Maurice ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 07:50:12 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Being Glib about Sib Azeem said: <> Ok, maybe I need to re-phrase it; Jane's entries on the Joni's Jazz set sounds like she's totally apathetic about the songs; she doesn't care about the lyrics, she doesn't care about the melodies, she didn't care enough about the project to properly rehearse...that's a VERY FAIR statement in my opinion. She shows a TOTAL lack of respect to Joni & her work in her performances, at least if I heard some vocal straining it wouldn't seem like she was so apathetic... BTW, Patrick just sent me a Jane compilation tape so I'm anxious to hear her at her best as opposed to her worst, which is all I know right now... Bob NP: Foo Fighters, "Learn to Fly" (now THERE'S some great vocal straining! :~D) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:12:24 -0500 From: "Chuck EIsenhardt" Subject: NJC Ramblin on about shopping for a guitar etc. (long) I was really transported by a recent thread on shopping for guitars and I wanted to offer a response. I was last out shopping in the summer and fall of 95, and I played a pretty good number of guitars while waiting for IT to find me (I think this is a good description of the process!) I had (inherited) a really wonderful turn of the century Martin which was, first off, a bit hard to play as it had a 3/4 classical neck, and me with small hands, and secondly was somewhat fragile and I thought deserved a rest from the stresses of being my one guitar: belt-buckle nicks, and all the other perils of being out of the case. I loved the Taylors, and my bank account places meat best in the lower echelons of the Taylor line, or in a used instrument (I continue to see interesting-sounding used Taylors on the market) But used can be scary - it's nice to have an original owner lifetime guarantee. Not being a very accomplished guitarist I was always shy about auditioning an instrument, and my advice is 'don't be shy about your playing ability, ever!' It always seems like some guy in the next aisle is the second-coming of Steve Earle and there you are playing your E-chord and feeling like a wuss . I finally bought my guitar from a little place that had a room I could go to and close the door and really just hear it well. I ended up with a Thompson which is not out there in great numbers but is a really well built guitar from BC with nice tone (for a small instrument) and very playable. It placed highly, I think 1st overall among Martins and Taylors and Laravees and the rest, in a Guitar Player Magazine blind test a couple of years ago... So I ramble on. I really wanted to talk about auditioning keyboards! When I was of junior high age I used to absolutely haunt the downtown piano and organ store. Organs were still huge in the sixites - there were whole stores in Hartford dedicated to this or that brand of electronic organ Allen, Wurlitzer...usually a single marque. I was attracted to the Wurlitzer place. I was talking piano lessons a couple of bus transfers away from home and I used get off early on the way home from my weekly tortures to drop in and play these great instruments- rows of grands and huge electronic organs... This was about the time that the transistor was happening and enabling not only portable radios (I got my first Zenith 'transistor' in 6th grade -1961) but the electronic organs started coming out with orchestral sounds and percussion loops...a pro could do fairly credible full orchestration on one of these instruments; you would go to home shows and there would be factory 'demonstrators' showing off the latest Wurlitzer or Hammond home-market organ. My Wurlitzer store had a resident demonstrator who could make these things talk. His name was Harold Nivers and I thought he was the best! Once while I was hanging around in the store he asked me if I had an idea how to play Brubeck's 'Take Five' as a solo and as it turned out, I had recently figured out a passable arrangement, and I showed it to him. A little payback for letting the kid hang out. But I was thrilled to show this idol something of my invention. But mostly, they had this little thing called an electric piano (now often called a 'Wurley') that they devised originally to use in music instruction labs - like a language lab, where each student had an instrument and earphones and the teacher had a master console where he/she could monitor any individual student as they played. This never quite took off... MY take on this was it was a *portable keyboard that I could use to play in *bands while dressed in *Beatle boots and *suits without lapels and become *famous and impress *babes. The other keyboards around at the time were the Farfisa and Vox Continental organs and the Honer Pianet and these were another whole order of expensive, plus they required an amp, while the the Wurley had a built-in speaker (with an auxiliary tone-cabinet available- I still have one of these) It had an interesting sound. Ray Charles used one on "What'd I Say" and Joe Zawinul had a huge crossover jazz hit with 'Mercy. Mercy. Mercy' (with the Adderly's) playing this Wurley EP. (Zawinul went on to become quite enamored of electronic keyboards, didn't he?) It's a sound you'd recognize all over the music of the intervening years - I did end op convincing Dad I would absolutely DIE without this piano, and as I kept up my campaign for about two years straight, he ultimately gave in. The beige model 140. I did play in high school bands, I never bought a suit without lapels, I did impress some young ladies . I took it to college and G&B around town and on the Cape, I played rock and roll with it (one Top 40 hit) in the 70's, and then it got stolen out of the van. I bought a Model 200 and that was my main keyboard until I got a DX7 in '83. This is now a certified 'retro' instrument! I now have another Wurley model 140A that my friend Marko Freedman bought for me at a church sale for $12. that sort of plays, and I tinker with from time to time. I have a Korg M1 that I thought was pretty cool until the motherboard battery died this year (at a session!) and everyone I called at Korg had *vaguely heard of it (because it's from '92). And I have a new Roland VK7 Hammond emulator which screams 'Hammond' but in the lifetime of these beasts will probably be obsolete and un-maintainable in 5 years, the way things seem to be going. Come Y2K I'll perhaps just be sitting at my macrobiotic acoustic piano playing to pass the time until the power comes back on. ChuckE ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:17:53 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: fans and fanatics In a message dated 11/18/1999 3:41:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: << One already knows how great One is >> Better be careful Colin describing God as ONE. After all thats a pretty obvious phallic reference and tends to "lock in" God on the masculine side of things. You could alternately use the term "O" to interface the God concept in a feminine way but some females would blanch at the obvious refernce to a body part. I guess youd be in trouble using a '3' because this obviously trumps up the tired Dolly Parton cliched descriptive image although I can think of one other image it conveys but cant describe it because this is a family show. Suffice it to say our Gay brothers might approve. Then theres the 6. You could use this but its part of the '666' thing and you would undoubtedly rile up the bible thumper religious fanatics on the list and possibly bring on some bad kharma which would spiff the Dharma of our more "New Age" listers. A '5' wouldnt be bad and would even symbolize a wheelchair which would honor our handicapped brothers and sisters but Im hearing about studies that have been done and that the overuse of handicapped actors on Seseme Street is scaring the kids who watch. I can tell you right off that '7' is OUT because it alludes to impotence in men. '8' is OUT because it alludes to the Mae West full figured women and our more petite female listers could feel slighted or even miffed and insulted. This leaves 4,2,and 9. '2' simply cant be used because it clearly references an aroused male. '4' is a distinct possibility but lets consider 9. NINE is a lucky number in some circles but an unlucky number in others. Then again its overuse by Yoko and John on the White Album may have doomed it forever as a numerical reference to God because there simply wouldnt be any room for God in a world with Yoko who IS God to many. So Its got to be the "4' . A reclining person (neutral gender - this is good) with their leg casually across the other symbolizing relaxation (laid back- this is good). The Bible thumpers will be happy because they can view it in a masculine way and the PC crowd can image it as a woman resting from all her work, trials and tribulations dealing with the unfair world. So '4' it is unless someone else out there can see some reference I am unable to see. Is this now clearer to you? Respectfully yours. marcel deste ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:20:32 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: The "Dog Eat Dog" Musical Appreciation Society presents ... Don "Quixote" Rowe, on his glorious quest, wrote: <> Don, what you're setting out to "prove" is that Joni was superior to her "mainstream" peers at the time...and given the time frame (83-85), this is EASILY proven. The mid-80's wasn't exactly a watershed for Pop music as I recall... A better tape would be to mix DED songs with FTR songs, NHR songs, Hejira songs, HOSL songs, C&S songs, and THEN make the comparison. Let's see...Sigue Sigue Sputnik and Joni...Joni sounds better! Joni vs. Night Ranger...Joni wins! Joni takes on Huey Lewis and The News...it's Joni by a knockout in the first round! :~D PS: I love DED...the songs are great, Joni's in wonderful voice - the production leaves some things to be desired, however, sort of like a pretty girl who is overly made up so as to camouflage her true beauty... Bob NP: Foo's, "Ain't it the Life" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:34:49 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: lyrics (NJC) Anne doggedly asks: <> Don't know about that, but Nillson's "Me & My Arrow" was DEFINITELY about a dog...:~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:45:24 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Refuge of the Roads video/ Big yellow taxi Maurice told Deb: <> I've also got it on the Universal Amphitheatre show (not a very good version), and also on another one, either MD '83 or Boston, can't remember which (VERY good version)...anyway Deb, I'll be happy to make you a copy, it's not like I'm making any copies of anything for anybody else! LOL!! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:49:09 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Being Glib about Sib SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Ok, maybe I need to re-phrase it; Jane's entries on the Joni's Jazz set sounds like she's totally apathetic about the songs; she doesn't care about the lyrics, she doesn't care about the melodies, she didn't care enough about the project to properly rehearse...that's a VERY FAIR statement in my opinion. She shows a TOTAL lack of respect to Joni & her work in her performances, at least if I heard some vocal straining it wouldn't seem like she was so apathetic... Bob and Azeem, I was at the rehearsal and the concert, right up front with the performers. I was shocked that Jane was singing with the lyrics in her hand, though she wasn't the only one who did so. Bob's aural observations are certainly correct about how it appeared. And I am a big Siberry fan. But surely she knows the lyrics to one Joni Mitchell song and could have performed that. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 14:48:35 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: fans and fanatics > Is this now clearer to you? Oh yes very. Thank you for sharing that. > Respectfully yours. > marcel deste - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:55:02 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: fans and fanatics << With all the diversity represented on the list, though, I still feel confident that there is room for one, who, though a JM +fan+, reserves +worship+ for the One who created each of us. >> <> ive always felt that by enjoying each other and by enjoying joni's music and sharing the experience with each other, we were identifying with the One. joni's music has always brought me closer to the One. as have the others on the list. pat ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 07:02:02 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: The "Dog Eat Dog" Musical Appreciation Society presents ... Hmmm -- I have perhaps been unclear. I guess the "mainstream" was misleading ... I should have said "cutting edge." There was, in fact, a lot of very distinctive pop being generated around that time, from David Byrne/Eno collaborations such as "The Catherine Wheel", to Depeche Mode's haunting synthetics, Prince's punk-funk period, The Police and their rock-reggae fusions. What the tape is actually revealing is that Joni's approach the the keyboard-heavy arrangements are as unique, and every bit as "signature" as her funny acoustic guitar tunings, and jazz blendings of the '60s and '70s. It is showing, in fact, that the production is not "too much make up" as you put it -- but rather a new and fresh organic element in Joni's composing aresnal. Don Rowe ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 10:36:13 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: fans and fanatics In a message dated 11/19/99 10:08:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, Siresorrow@aol.com writes: << joni's music has always brought me closer to the One. >> i'm very sorry..... I mean joni's music has always brought me closer to the Four. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:22:28 PST From: "Raffaele Malanga" Subject: absolute joni Hi everyone, I don't mean to sound fanatical, but do you ever go through periods when you think that you don't really need anything else in musical terms apart from Joni's? More often than not I find myself spontaneously listening just to Joni's music and feel like not needing all the other CDs and tapes I've got. ...I didn't mean to sound fanatical... Raffaele ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:12:00 -0700 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - November 20 1976: Joni, with John Sebastian, Country Joe McDonald and Fred Neil, takes part in "California Celebrates The Whales Day" at the Memorial Auditorium in Sacramento, California. (from Wally's bio page) Joni and Jaco finally performed together in Sacramento at a Whales benefit hosted by then Governor Jerry Brown. She performed a wonderful set with Bobbye Hall on congas joining Jaco on bass. Joni's solo acoustic encore of "Song For Sharon" was a stunning triumph, and she returned later to sing back-up during Fred Neil's performance of his song, "The Dolphins." - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:27:44 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: Paul Bowles (NJC) Did anyone see that the expatriate American author and composer Paul Bowles died (in Tangiers, Morocco) of a heart attack yesterday? His novel "The Sheltering Sky" was, of course, immortalized by Sting in his song "Tea in the Sahara" (from _Synchronicity_). ;) I wish some of the reports I've read would have mentioned that his wife, Jane (she died in the early '70s, I think), was also a writer (of the novel _Two Serious Ladies_, a play, and some stories) -- one of the most unusual and original of her time. - --David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:38:00 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: The "Dog Eat Dog" Musical Appreciation Society presents ... Don clarifies: <> Thanks for the clarification, Don...that's a pretty astute and insightful observation, as a musician, songwriter, and keyboardist yourself your opinion carries a lot of weight with me! Of course, I would STILL love to see Joni kick Huey Lewis' ass! :~D Bob NP: Sam Cooke, "Wonderful World" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 19:15:49 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Joni voted top 20 In response to Martin's: >Madonna's OK in her way, but c'mon now!! And Colin replied: >I think Madonna is way more talented than many give her credit for. >I >think she is very like Joni in that she has done her own thing and > >succeeded and is innovative. Here's my tuppence worth (a little Brit content, eh?) Madonna is one of those people I'm a bit ambivalent about. In a way, I admire her balls (so to speak!) even though I'm not particularly fond of her or her singing. And yet, there are quite a few songs she has done that I do like, even though I've never bought any of her stuff. I have a hard time trying to decide WHAT I feel about her. Oddly enough, I have a similar feeling about Cher. I can't stand her singing and she is, after all, the ultimate plastic woman, but again, I admire her balls. (In her case, given all the surgery she has had, she may actually have balls!) In her own very weird way, she's kind of fascinating, even though I'm almost ashamed (not ashamed enough, evidently) to admit it. I couldn't ever compare Madonna to Joni though - I think she's a shrewd businesswoman, but I don't think she's a deep thinker. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 19:17:21 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Frou-frou foxes... (NJC) > > Azeem creates a new colour: "frou-frou-foxes-in-the-midsummer-fires". > > Azeem didn't make that one up; it's the title of a song by the >incomparable Cocteau Twins, I think. (They may not have applied it to a >color -- but all their songs make me think of colors anyway, especially >with their beautiful album sleeve artwork.) > Oh darn. My estimation of Azeem has gone way down! ;) Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 19:33:07 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: JAZZ TAKES and the Grammys David tells us: >I got a call from ARKADIA JAZZ today, suggesting I alert >anyone I know who happens to be a member of NARAS (National Academy >of >Recording Arts & Sciences) that my CD, JAZZ TAKES ON JONI >MITCHELL, is on >the preliminary ballot...Field 9, Category 43. This >is the first of >I-don't-know-how-many steps on the way to a Grammy >nomination. Good for you! Let's hope it goes all the way to top! Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:59:14 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: Joni voted top 20 Catherine and friends, Uh oh, you tramped on one of my favorite entertainers of all time. Of course, Joni is an idol and goddess and the most gifted musician of the century, in my opinion. We sometimes bemoan the fact that people put Joni down, or that she doesn't get the credit she deserves. It's true, of course. But, why would we want to put Cher down, or take away her credit? Let's face it, she's an Emmy winning television star, she's a multiple Grammy award winner, and an Oscar holding actress. Cher has talent, charm, and she can belt a tune. I love Cher and her music, and while I would say that Joni is the best musician, Cher is by far among the best entertainers of this century. First, she is not as much plastic as the rumors report -- what, a nose job, some breast work, and a little bit of a face lift in 30+ years? That's less than most other women in show business have! Second, Cher has a singing style and delivery that is unique and gifted. I have an early Sonny & Cher recording on which she sings "Danny Boy." This Irish harpist has heard a lot of Danny Boys, but no one can touch her version. Third, remember, Cher was a television star as much as a recording star in the early days. She proved herself as a top-rate commedienne (and later an actress). But, more importantly, in her TV years, she covered an extremely wide range of singing styles, and her performances were always top-rate. Granted, some of the arrangements of covers of popular tunes of the day were a bit cheesy, but Cher did justice to them. I doubt few other singers could have sparkled so well in a weekly variety show with music that ranged from Beatles to Ray Charles to Gershwin to Kris Kristoffersen and back again. Fourth, Cher has a spark and personality all her own (like Joni and other stars), and she has broken new ground as a performer and a musician. She is a pop singer, and you have to look at the playing field around her -- she's far ahead of most other pop singers. She was bold enough to come out with a little bit of gypsy raunch in the 1970s (when the Carpenters were all the rage). She broke into a bit of heavy metal edge in the 1980s (when Madonna had turned everything smooth). And her latest efforts are taking her far into techno. Fifth, Cher has bordered on outrageous, with her tattoos and her purple hair. But, didn't Joni do outrageous as the cross gendered blackfaced Art Nouveau? When it comes down to it, there's a lot of talent that justifies both performers' practice of artistic license. Joni proves that she has true talent whether she sings her own material or classic jazz standards. Cher proves that she has true talent whether she sings her own custom-ordered pop tunes or the national anthem (which she nailed beautifully!). I heard Cher sing Joni Mitchell's "River" one time -- it was proud! Cher is popular because she's good, despite some of her weaker material. Joni is popular because she's good, despite some of her weaker material. And also, for the record, I think Madonna has a lovely voice. Some of her songs are beautiful, catchy and very heartfelt. My two cents -- we are all Joni fans, but there's room for appreciation of other talents, as well. Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 20:11:08 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Joni voted top 20 Personally I think Cher is a good actress. How many Oscar winners for their acting are also making hit pop records? her music doesn't make me think 'i must buy thast' but some are enjoable, especially now she is into techno beats. I would see a film for her. I thought Mask was excellent and she astounding. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 20:56:19 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: RE: Costing a Mint. And a half. (njc) Sue said: >You could probably play it on the stinky sears guitar you got for >xmas in >5th grade.>> And Anne replied: >OMIGOD, Sue! How did you know???? Mine was the deluxe (hah!) >plywood >model with the wide, concave, unvarnished neck. I swear I >still have >callouses up to my elbows!!! I had to duke it out with my 3 sisters and 1 brother because my parents gave one stinkin' el-cheapo guitar to the whole brood of us one Christmas. I bided my time and waited until everyone else had tired of it - then that guitar became MINE. It murdered my fingers and as a result, I went to using classical guitar/nylon strings so as to save the tender digits. Are you telling me now (some 30 or more years later) that it's not so much the strings as the cheapness of the guitar?!? So now I find out. And to think I've had this morbid fear of steel strings since I was about 13. I imagine finger garrottings and so on. The very thought of it sets me teeth on edge (those that are still there when I wake up in the morning!) :D Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 21:23:56 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: It's Clown's Illusions - the novels of Wally Lamb Lori laughs at: "It's Clown's illusions I recall" in Wally Lamb's "She's come undone". Another lister mentioned this line a month or so ago, and I went to the library and got that book out. I liked it so much, I've just finished reading Wally Lamb's other book "I know this much is true", which is even better. It is an absolutely amazing book about identical twin brothers, where one is found to be schizophrenic when he reaches his teens. It's told by the other brother, the "not-crazy" one and goes back and forth in time between their childhood, the recent past and the very recent past, as well as containing a story-within-a-story in the memoirs of their truly nasty Sicilian grandfather, which reads almost as a bit of a very dark fairy tale. It's one of those books where you'll find yourself laughing and crying at the same time (you know, it's the same release!) In many ways, much like "She's come undone", it's depressing, but it's also uplifting at times and often very funny. I hope to see a lot more by this guy - he is a wonderful writer. Apparently both books made it to Oprah's list, whatever that means. Read his books. They're good. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 21:36:42 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: CD prices (SJC) Ange in Oz sez: >I know this won't really interest most of you, but I'm rather shitty >and >had to have a little bitch. I am so sick of paying so much for >CD's in >Australia - it is beyond a joke, and what's more annoying is >that there's >not even consistency in the pricing....yesterday I saw >MOA for $36, next >store I went in it was $26, and then I saw Hejira >for $15 (I paid $32 when >I bought it 2 yrs ago) where's the >logic?... First, it's oK to be in a shitty mood. It's probably good to bitch once in a while. Second, I don't know how much the Australian $ is worth compared, say, to the US one, but we always have to pay more here in Canada too than you would in the US, even when you factor in the exchange rate. Our dollar happens to be pretty low right now, compared to the US, so you can already add on 35-40% to the $US, but then, we usually get slapped with even more for whatever reason, despite so-called "free trade". Back in the 70's when our dollar was actually worth more than the $US (for about 5 minutes), often we still had to pay more. We certainly never paid less. It's probably not as extreme for us as it is for you or for those in Europe. At least we're on the same continent as the US, so they just drive a truck across the border. They probably factor in all kinds of shipping charges (even if the actual CDs may be produced there!) The whole CD pricing thing is a racket anyway. They charge more for CDs than they do for cassettes, but it costs no more to produce them. It's all marketing, advertising, packaging and all that hype that you're paying for and people seem to have the perceived idea that a CD is *worth* more than a cassette for example - in fact, these days, due to volume, it's probably cheaper. You should try some kind of boycott thing (haha!) to see if it would pressure anyone into treating you decently. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 21:42:37 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Canucks (njc) >I've sure never called myself or anyone else I know a 'canuck'. >Don't >really even know what that word originally referred to. > I'm not sure either! Apart from Johnny Canuck whoever the heck he was/is. It sounds vaguely Inuit to me, but what do I know? Also, that e-mail I sent was supposed to have more stuff in it and might have made more sense than it did but Hotmail timed out on me, I didn't get to save my original e-mail and somehow managed to send the incomplete version. I don't remember now what else I said, so it must have been a lie! Take care. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 21:47:02 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: RE: Jimmy Webb, Part 2 (NJC) Anne tells me: >It's definitely worth seeing him [Jimmy Webb] perform his own songs. >He >does a great job of it (I'm pretty critical of performers.) His >voice is >strong and melodic and his piano playing is wonderful. He >also brings >something to the songs, a depth of emotion, that most >covers somehow don't >quite get. > I hope he comes to Toronto. 'Course if he did, I'm too broke to go anywhere that ain't free, so I'd just be pissed off that he was here but I couldn't see him! We have a chain of bookstores/CD/videostuff called "Indigo" that often has famous people there doing booksignings but also either talking or performing, so I can keep my fingers crossed. Actually i'm on my way up there now to exchange the STAS CD I bought a couple of weeks ago but just got to play last night and discovered it's flawed. Indigo has had people like Diana Krall performing, and Frank McCourt talking and signing his newest book "'Tis". Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:43:45 -0500 From: waytoblu@mindspring.com Subject: Re: absolute joni >Hi everyone, >I don't mean to sound fanatical, but do you ever go through periods when you >think that you don't really need anything else in musical terms apart from >Joni's? This is an interesting question and I must say I can not imagine myself needing only the music of Joni or anyone else for that matter. There is just too much incredible music in the world. And there is nothing more wonderful than discovering something for the first time. And it constantly amazes me how wonderful it all is. I'm going to see James Taylor next week with the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra and I can hardly wait. I saw him back in 1991 in Chapel Hill and that show, in his home town, actually converted me into a fan. I hadn't really cared for him that much until I went to see him live and it absolutely blew me away. And here I am at the end of the decade, seeing him again. I used to go see the Grateful Dead every spring and I really miss that part of my life. Those shows were a yearly ritual. There truly is nothing like a dead show and there never will be. When springtime comes, I really enjoy listening to Bob Marley. Anyway, I could go on, but the point it is that if you only listen to one artist, then you are not allowing yourself to discover anything that you might not be familiar with but might really enjoy. However, I did find when I discovered music that I really liked, I would immerse myself in and try to find as much of it as I could, so I can relate to really liking something except that I feel that way about lots of different music. In the same way, there are several people that I consider close friends and they are all very unique and different. I love them all and am very thankful to have such an incredible group of friends, and I may go through periods where I see one of them much more often than the others but I would never want to see just that one person all of the time and never see anyone else. But that does not mean I like them any less. In any relationship, the time you spend away from someone is important because you miss them and realize how much you enjoy being with them. Music is much the same way with me. Honestly, I don't listen to Joni day in and day out and though I think she is absolutely incredible and has made more of an impact and influence on me than perhaps I know, there are several other people who I love just as much. I don't think, and this is important, that that makes me any less of a fan. I find that when I don't listen to her for awhile I enjoy her that much more when I put one of her cd's on. On my way back from Cumberland Island, I put on Hejira and had the best time listening to it that I had ever had. Every word seemed to ring through my head. Part of the reason for the way I see music may be that I am a musician and a very intuitive one at that. I have found that the more music I listen to, the more things I check out that I have not heard, the more fresh ideas I seem to develop and the more my playing and songwriting evolves. I have always had just a hunger for music ever since I started buying LP's. I actually really enjoy putting old LP's on the turntable and playing them. Anyway, I really believe that there is always more music out there to discover. And yet, though I am not able to really see from the perspective of someone who is not musical, I can imagine what is like to be a loyal fan of someone and to treasure their music and maybe not need anything else. I think this is true for a lot of people-- they have their music they love and are familiar with and are hesitant to listen to anything outside of that. I suppose that would be the other extreme opposite people like me who can't get enough of music and there is probably every increment inbetween. I have found one of the biggest struggles of being an unknown musician with a very unusual style is getting through to those people on the opposite extreme. This is probably more of answer than you expected but anyway, I think I'll stop here. Victor NP: Bruce Hornsby-Hot House ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 14:44:16 -0800 From: "Robert Youngken" Subject: Gold CD availability Hello all: Please excuse any impropriety or misposting of this msg as I am new to this list. I have recently upgraded my audio system and find that my C and S CD is, sonically speaking, not so great, particularly compared to the LP (it is HDCD but my player doesn't do that). My question-does anyone know where I can get the gold CD of C and S in North America? Apparently it is out of print!! Should I wait for the DVD audio revolution?? I am told that it will be superior to any CD, but who knows how long all of this will take. I am not trying to be snobby here it is just that in revealing systems the CD has some significant annoyances sonically. Thanks in advance for your positive suggestions. Bob Youngken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 22:56:13 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: CD prices (SJC) I bought S&L and NOA in Quebec City because they were less than half the price here. I paid $22 Can each and i got $2.20 at the time for my pound. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:17:21 -0500 From: "Jennifer L. Nodine" Subject: tonight, tonight Woooohoooo! I'm so psyched! I just heard from my one and only personal friend that likes Joni! She and I never have time to get together, but tonight we are having a wine and Joni night! I can't wait to share my new Joni selections with her. I think she'll love them! - -Jenny in CT ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 15:54:31 -0800 From: jan gyn Subject: FW: Odd Day (OT) >> > Today is an odd day, meaning that all of the digits are odd. >> > >> > 11-19-1999. >> > >> > The next odd day after that will be 1-1-3111 (well over a thousand >> > years away), which we will never see. >> > Days such as 4-13-89 have both even and odd digits, thus, it is >> > neither odd nor even. The next even day will be 2-2-2000 (the first >> >> > one since 8-28-888). Now you have a reason to celebrate today as it >> >> > will be your last odd day on earth!!!!! >> > >> > Have a nice Odd day ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 19:14:34 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Gigs of the Year NJC - (but Sib content!) In a message dated 16/11/99 11:42:09 GMT Standard Time, philipf@tinet.ie writes: << It was an evening with a lot of heart and humour and funny dolls. I'm really glad that there is a Jane Siberry out there selling her cds out of a suitcase and refusing to conform to the music industry's homogenised idea of how things should be. >> Good to hear from another Sibarite, Philip. I like the way you say Heart and Humour - add Humility, and there's a line from another singer we all know and love... Azeem in London NP: Mathilde Santing singing Tim Finn's "Crescendo". Heather and Rob, your tape is almost done! And Gerry, I haven't forgotten yours, I just keep forgetting to post it!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 20:29:49 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: (NJC) Come In From The Cold Is that our long lost Winfried whose post I saw? Been a while, guy! Hope all s well with you! Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 20:54:40 EST From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Paul Bowles (NJC) The NY TIMES obit was informative on the subject of Jane Bowlesand included a picture of them together from the late 1930s, I think. It was one the longest obits I've ever seen in the NYT. It was written by long-time theatre journalist Mel Gussow. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 21:06:08 EST From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Jon Hendricks (njc) One of Jon Hendricks' most ambitious works was his collaboration with the great jazz composer (and my teacher) George Russell. NEW YORK, NEW YORK was released in 1960 on Decca; Hendricks wrote and recited an extensive rhymed narration and George conducted an all-star big band doing his own works and a fabulous arrangement of "Manhattan" (Rodger & Hart). Jon's lyric probably did not originate the phrase "the city so nice they had to name it twice" but it was the first time I (age 19) had ever heard it. Another memorable couplet alluded to Charlie Parker: Lack of acceptance is less like something to hide from and more like something.....Bird died from. The band included Coltrane, Art Farmer, Bob Brookmeyer, Benny Golson, Bill Evans and Max Roach. D LAHM, wishing there were time to revisit this and so many other great jazz sounds I haven't heard in years. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:08:44 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Cher (was Joni voted top 20) VLJC But, more importantly, in her TV years, she covered an extremely > wide range of singing styles, and her performances were always top-rate. > Granted, some of the arrangements of covers of popular tunes of the day were > a bit cheesy, but Cher did justice to them. I doubt few other singers could > have sparkled so well in a weekly variety show with music that ranged from > Beatles to Ray Charles to Gershwin to Kris Kristoffersen and back again. I think Lou makes a good point here. Cher has a very distinctive voice and singing style and with the right material and arrangement I think she is better than good. I remember her singing 'Am I Blue' on one of her TV shows and I thought she did a wonderful job with it. Somewhere in my vinyl collection is a Cher album that has covers of 'The Times They Are A-Changin', 'Hey Joe' and 'There But For Fortune' on it. She did a credible job with all of them. When various people have praised Madonna for being so original and innovative I've been completely unable to figure out why. What would she be without her a producer? The songs I've seen performed from the much-praised 'Ray of Light' seem like the same old same old with different window dressing to me. But that's what Madonna is, as far as I'm concerned. I still haven't figured out how acting out every het-male fantasy in the book is sexually liberating. But a lot of people seem to think when Madonna does it she is somehow freeing us from our sexual hang-ups. I've often been tempted to think of Madonna as the 80's & 90's version of Cher. In her way Cher has been just as provocative as Madonna. But ultimately I think Cher has a lot more talent and heart than Madonna will ever have. As Lou pointed out, her television work was entertaining and fun. And if you have any doubts about her talent as an actress, rent 'Silkwood' or 'Come Back to the Five and Dime, Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean' or 'Moonstruck'. She is a worthy co-star for Meryl Streep in 'Silkwood' and she shines in each of these films. Madonna has yet to make much of a mark with her acting. Maybe there is some generational prejudice on my part, but I just don't think Madonna is anything to get excited about. Cher's gutsiness, honesty and talent on the other hand are admirable to me. Ok I will throw a bit of Joni content in here. Neither Cher nor Madonna have the musical genius to compose, arrange and play the incredible music that Joni creates. But Joni doesn't act in movies like Cher does or promote herself as successfully as Madonna does. They're different animals and each has different strengths. So I guess we should give each of them her due (even Madonna....I guess...) Mark in Seattle.....wondering why students at Texas A&M feel they need to waste all those trees every year....especially after 11 deaths this year.... ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #521 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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