From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #508 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, November 11 1999 Volume 04 : Number 508 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Music... (NJC) ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: language (NJC) ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: language (NJC) ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Thanks - NJC ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: language her-his-its-story(NJC) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Wally Breese [Leslie Mixon ] Re:J'sJ'sJazz # 7 [Julian51469@aol.com] Re: november 11 njc [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: november 11 njc ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: language (NJC) [Don Rowe ] Hissing demos [Michael E Hawthorne ] bob? SCJoniGuy?? (NJC) ["Takats, Angela" ] Thanks for the warm welcome [Andy Stancliffe ] Re: Joni's Jazz [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Joni and me (A de-lurking newby's first post) ["rick novosel" ] Re: Thanks for the warm welcome [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Eurojonifest2000 ["Jamie Zubairi" ] NJC Puppies [catman ] Re: JoniJest 99 Box Set, CD-R's and Mystery Singer [Jerry Notaro ] Re: 10 Easy Pieces and Webb in Boston (vljc) ["Catherine McKay" ] RE: Music... (NJC) [Louis Lynch ] Today in Joni History - November 12 [Today in Joni History ] Re: november 11 njc ["Kakki" ] Re: NJC Puppies [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: 10 Easy Pieces and Webb in Boston (vljc) ["Kakki" ] Re: JoniJest 99 Box Set, CD-R's and Mystery Singer ["Kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:52:52 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Music... (NJC) Kakki wrote (and like Wally, I'm still giggling): >You think I'm like you mother, or another person with whom you have been >intimate, or your sister or a person you have idealized But I feel I must correct one or two things. The lines really should read: You think I'm like your democratically-appointed primary care-giver, or another person with whom you have been intimate, or your opposite-gender sibling or a person you have idealized. If your going to be politically correct, Kakki, you could at least endeavour to be precise! I really have to go. I've got to dust the persontlepiece and the tall-still-growing-person, and then I'm going to eat a couple of persondarins. Helen _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz - -----Original Message----- From: Kakki To: Louis Lynch ; MDESTE1@aol.com ; catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk ; joni@smoe.org Date: Thursday, 11 November 1999 16:18 Subject: Re: Music... (NJC) >Harper Lou wrote: > >> I do a lot of musical direction for churches, and one of the denominations >> recently modernized its hymnal, removing every single reference to the old >> "sexist" way of using the language. The results are abominable. There is >> no poetry left in the great old standards, and the new ones sound >indecisive >> and weak. Languages evolve over time -- they grow rich as they pass >through culture >> and era, retaining a little from each. The beauty of English is in its >> diversity and its specificity. Why clutter it up with meaningless, >> overregulated junk like "womyn" and "ourstory." > >I agree that it gets carried to ridiculous lengths. It's one thing to >perceive certain words as oppressive to various segments of humanity (oops, >there's another word with "man" in it) but isn't the policing of language >just another form of oppression? And why go back and "cleanse" hymms that >were written hundreds of years ago? Wouldn't it be more creative and >proactive to write entirely new hymms? I think Lou makes many good points. >What if down the road in ourstory, Joni's songs were rewritten to fit the >new "paradigm"? Off the top of my head - > >I am a womyn of heart and mind >With time on my hands >No biological person I have borne to nurture >You come to me like a still growing person >And I give you my critical assessment and my positive encouragement >Or just another still growing person >When love causes me to not be actualizing healthy personhood >After the enjoyable feelings when you are more grounded >Negotiate mutual agreements favorable to you >Execute the necessary documentation >Accept your commendations >Copulate with persons with whom you have not yet achieved a healthy and >sustaining bond >Does that not leave you with a sense of not acheiving your greatness >potential? > >I think more people than not would find this to be a complete ruinization of >Joni's song, sucking all the heart and soul and poetry out of it, even while >they found it amusing. Many who have heard "revised" hymms feel the same >way. > >Kakki > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:57:29 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: language (NJC) I agree with Wally. Language has a history (language has been bastardised from just about every source imaginable - of it's own (as Wally pointed out), and the English and I make no apology for using "that" word! _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz - -----Original Message----- From: Wally Kairuz To: David Wright Cc: joni@smoe.org Date: Thursday, 11 November 1999 20:08 Subject: RE: language (NJC) >> My, I'm certainly active, aren't I? I "objected," "went on to cite," >> "commented," "selected," "wondered," and "finally asked," all in one post. >> How remarkable. > > > facetiousness won't help make your argument stronger, david > > >> Wally Kairuz wrote: >> > > If you're looking for excuses to ridicule the feminist movement, >> > > I'm sure you'll find them whether certain feminists (or other people) >> > > use the word "herstory" or not. >> > >> > my answer: certainly. but that doesn't make the word any less >> > ridiculous. >> >> The word's not more ridiculous than any other word to begin with. >> Now then, Pat Robertson accuses all feminists of being lesbians (and >> witches and baby-killers). By your reasoning, we should therefore ban >> lesbianism or lesbians from the feminist movement (or ban feminists from >> being lesbians) because that might give him more ammunition? > >the analogy is faulty. lesbians are not artificial concoctions created by >linguistically incompetent speakers. > >> > the alternate spelling for woman and the word herstory were created >> > based on the assumption that history means his story and woman means >> > wife of man. >> >> No, they were created based on the *reality* that that's how those >> words are often *used* -- both by people who aren't aware of their >> etymology, and, "quite apparently," Wally, by those who are. > >since i have never met people that have used the words history and woman to >assert any aspect of their personalities or social ranks or sense of >self-worth, i cannot assess that *reality* you seem to ascribe to >everybody's experience. to respond to your post i used reference books both >to determne the etymology of the words at hand and to trace the origins of >the word herstory and of the alternate spelling of woman. > >> What's with this knee-jerk dismissal of those of us who would just >> like to suggest that it's possible for *both* words ("history/herstory") >> and the issues they raise be taken seriously? (As I said already: I think >> "herstory" is a great word, but I don't necessarily use it all the time or >> even very often.) Even if you contend that "herstory" is already >> encompassed by the term "history," it'd just be one more synonym in a >> language already crowded with them. (Or are all those other synonyms >> "ludicrous" too?) What are you all so afraid of? > >let's break this down: >my post dismisses the terms, perhaps even their creators, but not the users. >the reason for my dismissal is that i sincerely believe that the words >herstory and wymyn are worthless and nonsensical. they do a disservice to >the cause of liberation because they banalize language and its political >power by playing with false etymologies and creating the inaccurate >impression that something has been achieved in the struggle for the >recognition of the rights for women by simply tampering with the spelling. >once again: the first three letters in the word history are not the english >word his. for example, the spanish and french words for history begin with >exactly the same three letters as does the english word; however, the >possessive adjectives equivalent to his are su in spanish and son/sa in >french. if the word history meant his story then the word historia [spanish >for history] should be sutoria and the word histoire [french for history] >should be satoire or sontoire. none of these words exist in either spanish >or french. the initial three letters in the word history coincide with but >do not mean the possessive adjective his. what's more, it would be a >tremendous display of ethnocentrism to assume that because the english word >his is a formal part of the word history, then the greek word "histor" [the >origin of the word history and its equivalents in most western languages] >must have actually been an english word, thus reversing the course of >history -- literally. >as to the issues implied by the coexistence of the words history and >herstory in some people's language, i cannot but emphasize that they must be >taken seriously, as they predate the existence of the word herstory and >should not be mistaken for the word. >i do not quite follow your reasoning, david, when you suggest that i am not >fond of synonyms. i am, indeed, very keen on synonyms. they greatly add to >the beauty of language. i, for one, do not find the english language crowded >with synonyms. i consider that there are exactly as many as we need. >moreover, synonyms do not make me apprehensive in the least. if asked what i >am afraid of, i will haste to answer that i am afraid of nothing. still, i >am very distressed when linguistic cuties are mistaken for actions and >wisecracking for intelligence. >wallyk > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:22:49 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: language (NJC) I agree with Wally. Language has a history (and I make no apology for using "that" word, since I'm using it in the correct context) of it's own and the English language has been bastardised (ooh, sorry, born-out-of-wedlock-ised?) from just about every source imaginable. According to my simple little Collins Oxford dictionary (and Wally), the word "history" is derived from the Greek "histor" meaning learned. It makes no mention of "his-story". I consider myself a feminist, but I don't like the connotations of the word. It has come to mean a bra-burning, left-wing, "down with men" liberal, that is far from the person I am or want to be. I fully accept there are some things I cannot do as well as a man (and vice versa) but by God, I'll defend my right to try! And I don't want to change the language we speak, as a cheap "victory" for women's rights, or minority rights, or homosexual rights, or any other rights. To me it just seem patronising, and a pretty "empty" gesture. I would rather see equality expressed in more meaningful and tangible ways. Like equal opportunity employment, health-care, education, etc., etc., etc. Helen _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz - -----Original Message----- From: Wally Kairuz To: David Wright Cc: joni@smoe.org Date: Thursday, 11 November 1999 20:08 Subject: RE: language (NJC) >> My, I'm certainly active, aren't I? I "objected," "went on to cite," >> "commented," "selected," "wondered," and "finally asked," all in one post. >> How remarkable. > > > facetiousness won't help make your argument stronger, david > > >> Wally Kairuz wrote: >> > > If you're looking for excuses to ridicule the feminist movement, >> > > I'm sure you'll find them whether certain feminists (or other people) >> > > use the word "herstory" or not. >> > >> > my answer: certainly. but that doesn't make the word any less >> > ridiculous. >> >> The word's not more ridiculous than any other word to begin with. >> Now then, Pat Robertson accuses all feminists of being lesbians (and >> witches and baby-killers). By your reasoning, we should therefore ban >> lesbianism or lesbians from the feminist movement (or ban feminists from >> being lesbians) because that might give him more ammunition? > >the analogy is faulty. lesbians are not artificial concoctions created by >linguistically incompetent speakers. > >> > the alternate spelling for woman and the word herstory were created >> > based on the assumption that history means his story and woman means >> > wife of man. >> >> No, they were created based on the *reality* that that's how those >> words are often *used* -- both by people who aren't aware of their >> etymology, and, "quite apparently," Wally, by those who are. > >since i have never met people that have used the words history and woman to >assert any aspect of their personalities or social ranks or sense of >self-worth, i cannot assess that *reality* you seem to ascribe to >everybody's experience. to respond to your post i used reference books both >to determne the etymology of the words at hand and to trace the origins of >the word herstory and of the alternate spelling of woman. > >> What's with this knee-jerk dismissal of those of us who would just >> like to suggest that it's possible for *both* words ("history/herstory") >> and the issues they raise be taken seriously? (As I said already: I think >> "herstory" is a great word, but I don't necessarily use it all the time or >> even very often.) Even if you contend that "herstory" is already >> encompassed by the term "history," it'd just be one more synonym in a >> language already crowded with them. (Or are all those other synonyms >> "ludicrous" too?) What are you all so afraid of? > >let's break this down: >my post dismisses the terms, perhaps even their creators, but not the users. >the reason for my dismissal is that i sincerely believe that the words >herstory and wymyn are worthless and nonsensical. they do a disservice to >the cause of liberation because they banalize language and its political >power by playing with false etymologies and creating the inaccurate >impression that something has been achieved in the struggle for the >recognition of the rights for women by simply tampering with the spelling. >once again: the first three letters in the word history are not the english >word his. for example, the spanish and french words for history begin with >exactly the same three letters as does the english word; however, the >possessive adjectives equivalent to his are su in spanish and son/sa in >french. if the word history meant his story then the word historia [spanish >for history] should be sutoria and the word histoire [french for history] >should be satoire or sontoire. none of these words exist in either spanish >or french. the initial three letters in the word history coincide with but >do not mean the possessive adjective his. what's more, it would be a >tremendous display of ethnocentrism to assume that because the english word >his is a formal part of the word history, then the greek word "histor" [the >origin of the word history and its equivalents in most western languages] >must have actually been an english word, thus reversing the course of >history -- literally. >as to the issues implied by the coexistence of the words history and >herstory in some people's language, i cannot but emphasize that they must be >taken seriously, as they predate the existence of the word herstory and >should not be mistaken for the word. >i do not quite follow your reasoning, david, when you suggest that i am not >fond of synonyms. i am, indeed, very keen on synonyms. they greatly add to >the beauty of language. i, for one, do not find the english language crowded >with synonyms. i consider that there are exactly as many as we need. >moreover, synonyms do not make me apprehensive in the least. if asked what i >am afraid of, i will haste to answer that i am afraid of nothing. still, i >am very distressed when linguistic cuties are mistaken for actions and >wisecracking for intelligence. >wallyk > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:35:02 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Thanks - NJC Thanks to everyone who said such nice things about my little Xmas story. My ego has been nicely stroked, thank you, and I'm now going to quit my job and write full time. NOT! But I am considering writing a bit more. Maybe a collection of amusing remembraces from my youth, since the last one seemed to be received so well! Now if I can just remember which brother it was that owned the six-inch-heeled shoes in the 70's, to go with the beautiful flared jeans, and the shiny nylon shirt. I tell you, "That 70's Show" has got NOTHING on my family! Helen P.S. Just realised I sent a weird message to the list - I tried a CTRL-X to do some cutting and pasting on my message about Language, and must have hit CTRL-S (send) instead. Sorry - and yes, it is complete gibberish! _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:53:10 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: language her-his-its-story(NJC) Is everybody serious or is this discussion "genderizing" time real. Like I dont always get a joke so Im treading carefully lest a get a bunch of "Marcel, we are kidding" flames. The reality is TIME is gender free. There is no HIS-story or HER-story. The word itself is not derived from a gender applied to the word. WE are all huMAN beings . Not hu-WOMEN beings. The concept of "MANkind" is not a genderized term. It is derived from the root human. HuMANity is a term clearly referring to both genders. Now if I have been missing a bunch of tongue in cheek humor then I plead guilty. If not you all need to get a grip. Sometimes the PC nonsense becomes static in what would otherwise be normal conversation. ta ta. marcel deste. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 06:34:00 +0000 From: Leslie Mixon Subject: Wally Breese Hello: I will be visiting with Wally this weekend. If anyone cares to send him their greetings, please email me offlist - I will print out your message and deliver it to him personally. Wally and Jim will be dictating their adventures with Joni to me for posting to this list and jonimitchell.com. My email address is stevem@cruzio.com.. Leslie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:22:43 EST From: Julian51469@aol.com Subject: Re:J'sJ'sJazz # 7 In a message dated 11/11/99 3:05:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, Azeem writes: << Ah well, can't please all of the people all of the time... >> Well, I have to agree with this statement...but I'm deffinately on the other side of the coin. I feel really great that this show happened, all sorts of folks worked real hard on it (though they didn't float yer boats) and a thousand or so people got to hear Joni's songs performed live by some of their favorite artists... No, it was not Joni singing, for the most part, and as a result we heard a fresh and different perspective. The whole show made me either love Joni's version deeper or introduced me to another artist that I was not all that familiar with. I personally can't wait to hear Ashara's Joni-fest tapes - I don't really care how famous someone is I just want to hear JONI !!! Here is my last installment of my review of Joni's Jazz - sorry to rain on everyone's rainy parade;-) Joni's Jazz Part Seven The mood shifts comfortably into an elegant dancing and musical dining mode. Somewhere far away I think I can hear a bottle of red wine being opened and poured, the lonely Doppler swish of a car driving by, and a black crow crying from high on its perch (with its wings slightly charred and smoldering). A melancholy piano dims the lights and Erin Hamilton pours indigo, cobalt and ultramarine ink into my fish tank as she begins to sing "Blue Motel Room." Graham Haynes adds a few shades of lavender, violet and turquoise to the pallette with his cornet, and my heart curls up with my soul to rest in this blue sanctuary . I am yearning to be with my lover as I swim through this deep ocean. The audience finds itself at the end of the first verse and then melts into quiet clapping and yelps of ecstasy. Erin's voice is rose colored silk against my ears, a cozy down comforter on a full moon, winter's midnight, smooth fingers combing through my hair. Throughout all of this bliss, Ben Perowsky is mysteriously holding back the hands of time with his magic drumsticks. (Is this band sharing a romantic secret with Einstein, Neptune and Aprodite - blowing a blue arrow kiss at the speed of light?) Duncan Sheik comes out to do "Refuge of the Road," and he asks for "some friends of spirit," to help him sing the song and, for some reason, I am reminded immediately of the first card of the Tarot deck which is the Fool: On the road to wisdom armed with naiveté, curiosity, fate, humor and humility. The band lays down the familiar, never-ending expanse of musical highway for the rookie to travel out on. He is meek and unsure at first but quickly finds a pacing for himself on this strange awkward journey. At times Duncan explores some realms of confidence by busting out into an elongated, passionate note (the last "...refuuuuuuge of the road" to which people clap and whistle) but he is still a student in this world. He shows his basic respect for the song by knowing the lines and melodies, but he has a hundred miles more to go before he finds his home. He graciously exits, and then Danny Kapilian returns to introduce the phenomenal band. "...And now, don't go nowhere.... We have a very special suprise." Jon Hendricks and Annie Ross of Lambert, Hendricks and Ross come on to the stage to huge applause. Annie then thanks Wardell Grey for writing the next song..."Twisted!" The piano and drums swing in on a catchy little groove to which Annie and Jon flash and sparkle all over. Annie sings the lead and Jon takes a vaudeville sidekick position by punctuating each of Annie’s lines with a surprised "What?" "How?" "Oh no!" All I can think of at this moment is: Can you imagine what a cool thing it must be for Joni to be seeing someof her idols? I’m reminded of a "treed tape" from an interview of Joni’s 12 favorite artists that Lambert, Hendricks and Ross are right up there with Miles Davis, Billie Holiday and the Burundi Drummers. (So the creator comes to see a tribute of her work only to treated to the creators of one of her creations....my mental gymnastics are going into overdrive here.) Then Jon and Annie bust in on "Jumpin' at the Woodside", where Jon takes the lead and Annie takes the explosive punctuating bursts in between Jon's dizzying scat and flow of lyrics. I’m reminded of Gillespie and Max, Gene and Grace and Lucy and Desi - those fast duos that that could make yer head spin. Fireworks are shooting off left and right and the merry-go-round that I’ve been riding swings into a blur of colors and reflections. "We'd like to bring out a very special guest for you....Joni, can you come out? Come on Ms. Mitchell, this night is here for you! Is this unbelievable that Joni is actually here with us tonight? It's a dream come true, folks." Joni is speechless...but of course finds the words as she always seems to. The crowd is absolutely ecstatic. The band busts into "Help Me" but nobody seems to know the words (except, of course, Chaka Kahn) including Joni who's "on vacation." Every word that Joni does remember and can sing the crowd eats up and licks their lips. The crowd and guests push Joni into improvising, and I am transported to those mythical days of yore...when Joni and her close friends would go away into the mountains or far-flung hide-aways and jam to their hearts content....no recordings are made except the impressions and cleansing of the soul. I feel as though I am now at one of those gatherings and Chaka has asked the band and singers to "break it down." Joni floats and pushes her vocal paints around on her invisible canvas that only we, the devoted, can see. This moment is so intimate, awkward and mind blowingly breath taking - every song she has ever made must have gone through deep sea exploration, experimentation and fluid play such as I am hearing now. The crowd is clapping and singing and giggling with glee and euphoria. The backing vocals glide in on silver skates singing, "help me, help me, help me." They are angels swooping in to lift this divine spirit up and let her know she is not alone and that she is loved. Chaka sings our wishes with "We love you Joni." From where I am standing, at the top of 18th street in Adams Morgan, I can see the sunset sky is a symphony of gold, orange, yellows and blues and all of Joni's Jazz is playing in it's fields of shadows and light. I stop my tape player, extract the second tape and re-insert the first tape, smile at a total stranger, press play and then head home. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:28:07 EST From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: november 11 njc HAPPY BIRTHDAY, JULIE!!! Hope your day is filled with sweet kisses, lots of prezzies and 5 pounds of chocolate! Love, Terry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 06:32:12 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: november 11 njc > well, folks, where i'm sitting november 11 rolled in about an hour and a > half ago. > no more delaying, now. no more dilly dallying, please. > raise your glasses to celebrate the birthday of > LONG-LOST SISTER > GIFTED WRITER > TRINKET FINDER > LAURA-NYRO LOOKALIKE > MOVIE CRITIC EXTRAORDINAIRE > MS. > JULIE > Z > WEBB!!!!! > i was just about to call you and wake you up, julie, but i thought i'd spare > your family the scary call-in-the-middle-of-the-night feeling for the time > being. > enormous love and happy days, sweetie! > wallyk Ok, all together now! Happy birthday to you (play that weird minor chord!) Happy birthday to you (play that minor chord!) Happy birthday, dear Julesy! Happy birthday to you! {{{{{Julie}}}}}} Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:08:34 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: language (NJC) Okay, let me see if I understand this thread ... using the themesong to 'The Beverly Hillbillies' as my example: Lemme tell ya herstory 'bout A disenfranchiser of gals named Jed An economically challenged rural resident Experiencing a nutritional paradigm shift Tried to readjust through use of a firearm Out came an effervesent natural resource to exploit Yeah, that's much better now ... ;-) "Play it cool Play it cool -- 50-50 Fire 'n Ice ..." Don Rowe ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:40:04 -0600 (CST) From: Michael E Hawthorne Subject: Hissing demos I joined the trading list three weeks ago. I missed the first CD tree that contained the Hissing demos; still, I would like hear them. I'm a semi-lurker, but, as I've said a few times, my favorite Joni-eras are from HOSL to S&L and from NRH to present. It would be greatly appreciated if someone would take the effort to make a cassette copy of the demos. Thanks, Michael Hawthorne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 04:18:15 +1100 From: "Takats, Angela" Subject: bob? SCJoniGuy?? (NJC) Richard wrote: <> he he he, this has been puzzling me for a while now, glad you asked Richard!! I'm sure Bob, that you have addressed the list about this email address change and I've just missed your post...you are very tricky (as well as being very nice :-) Ange Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:22:05 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) From: Andy Stancliffe Subject: Thanks for the warm welcome Thanks to everyone who wrote, both on and off list, after I "de-lurked" last week. I wasn't at all surprised by the kindness in everyone's welcomes. I especially liked being the "Fourth Beatle" in Kakki's message. During the week, I've been going through my collection of old Joni memorabilia in order to send magazines, reviews, etc. to Les so he can post them on the JMDL website. It has been an almost bittersweet feeling, looking through some of the old souvenirs. I found the program from the night I saw her at the LA Music Center in March 1974, a promo poster for Court & Spark (which I used to have taped on the wall of my dorm room), all sorts of things I'd forgotten I even had. I will be sending a few things to Les to post, including an interview with Henry Lewy, who talks about what it was like to work in the studio with Joni, and a magazine article from the 80s in which Joni talks about photography, with samples of some of her own photographs, and sidebars about the covers of Hejira and Don Juan's Reckless Daughter. The recent discussions about DJRD have been really interesting. I have to admit that this was one of her albums that took me a while to really appreciate, and now I agree that it has some of her best singing and most adventurous music. The song I really love from this album is the title song. I was so jealous when I heard she was singing it on the East Coast tour last year! Anyway, thanks again to everyone for the warm welcome. I'll try to post a little more often. P.S. Hi Damon! See you in Tucson next week! Andy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:23:59 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's Jazz Azeem critiques: << I may be biased, but I was expecting the worst of Jane Siberry's performances from what had been posted previously, and actually I think they're pretty good: she seems to "get" the songs, doesn't mess around with them too much and doesn't sound like she's straining, which most of the others are.>> Firstly, thanks Azeem for your honest review...I threw mine up a couple weeks ago and nobody's really come out and challenged it...I do have to grin at your assessment of Jane, she's not *straining* because she doesn't seem to be *making much effort*, imo...your follow-up post shows you to be a big fan, so I guess that plays into your review pretty heavily, which is cool...as a PM Dawn fan, I tend to give them a little more rope than I do some of the others. A couple other thoughts on Joni's Jazz: 1. I've found that I can tune out the crummy singing when required and listen to Reid's band...they rock throughout! 2. Holly Cole was supposed to show but had to cancel due to illness...I wonder what she was slated to sing originally? Does anyone know? Her pretty voice would have been quite welcome in this set. 3. The more I listen to the whole collection, the more I like it, so give it some extra listens and let it grow on you...the first time through IS pretty rough. Surely Joni's opinions regarding her "peers" weren't aided much by hearing singers with no feel for pitch or rhythms. 4. "I's A Muggin'" would've worked better if PM Dawn performed over the sample they plyed to start - that little Charles/Joni duet has a neat little rhythm to it that they picked up on but they didn't reference it again unless the mix just didn't pick it up. Anyway, even with its faults it's a great concert to have! Bob NP: The Breeders, "No Aloha" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:28:19 -0800 From: "rick novosel" Subject: Re: Joni and me (A de-lurking newby's first post) Hello to all of you and let me say "wow" up front. I've been a joni-digest subscriber for two weeks now and I have to say that I'm astounded at what I've been reading (every night faithfully, I must add). More on that later but first, my Joni history (whoops!). I first heard of Joni in 1968 when, lying on the floor watching TV in Ontario, Canada, I was suddenly riveted to the screen by the image of a beautiful, long-haired, young woman singing and playing guitar like I had never heard or seen before. (The picture from the splash page on Wally's web-site says it all.) A few months later, I experienced my first Joni concert (free at the University of Western Ontario). Thus began two years of hitch-hiking around southern Ontario and upper New York State attending every Joni concert I could. I think I saw her six or seven times, including twice at the Mariposa Folk Festival. I met her backstage a couple of times and she once gave me a daisy in exchange for a pen of mine she lost while signing autgraphs. For me the "classic" Joni and the material I listen to most often when I need a Joni fix, means STAS through to FTR. STAS helped me through a lot of long, lonely times when I was away at university. Almost every song on those early albums brings back some memory, good or bad, but they are all a part of me. Hejira of course is superb IMHO. I guess this is getting to be a little long to keep anyone's attention but I want to say a little bit about the language and PC threads, not so much about the content but about the feelings behind them. I get the feeling that it is a lot easier, given the relative anonymity and distance of the discussion list, to let one's feelings get the better of one's judgement and begin to strike out at the personality of the person you're writing to rather than just sticking to a discussion of what can be interesting topics. One last thing: My heart-felt thanks to Wally B. for the Joni Mitchell Web Site. It was the first site I ever looked up on the Web and still the only site I go to almost every day. Get well soon Wally. Hope to hear from some of you soon Rick N. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:30:39 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: bob? SCJoniGuy?? (NJC) Ange said: <> Well, I thought I did, but apparently not good enough! What's even more tricky than that is that everybody calls John "Richard" because his address says Richard Rice, even though he always signs off John...and on another John note, he's also a talented cartoonist - when he sent me his blanks he included a cartoon of a little creature holding a sign saying "I wub Joan". It gave me a pretty broad grin! Oops, in light of the current thread I shouldn't use the term "broad" grin...:~D Bob NP: The Breeders, "Roi" (In honor of Mariana...has anyone heard from her recently?) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 04:33:44 +1100 From: "Takats, Angela" Subject: RE: bob? SCJoniGuy?? (NJC) Yes, i just noticed the Richard/John thing after I'd sent off the post...that IS tricky...sorry John! > Ange said: > > < change and I've just missed your post...you are very tricky (as well as > being very nice :-)>> > > Well, I thought I did, but apparently not good enough! > What's even more tricky than that is that everybody calls John "Richard" > because his address says Richard Rice, even though he always signs off > John...and on another John note, he's also a talented cartoonist - when he > sent me his blanks he included a cartoon of a little creature holding a > sign saying "I wub Joan". It gave me a pretty broad grin! > Oops, in light of the current thread I shouldn't use the term "broad" > grin...:~D > > Bob > > NP: The Breeders, "Roi" (In honor of Mariana...has anyone heard from her > recently?) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:35:14 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Thanks for the warm welcome Andy said: <> Andy, thanks for sharing this stuff with Les, I'm looking forward to reading it - I've always thought there was info from Lewy out there, so I'm anxious to hear what he has to say! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:39:18 GMT From: "Jamie Zubairi" Subject: Eurojonifest2000 Dear friends, I have just spoken to the bookings person at the Troubadour Coffee house in Earl's Court and we have a provisional date pencilled in for January 4th at 7.00pm 2000. It's a Tuesday and I believe the cellar remains open until 12. I will call her up after my trip and confirm details about particulars i.e. will we be advertising, will we be selling tickets, we intend to play as a gig, what are the implications etc. If anyone could come up with suggestions I would most appreciate it. The standard charge is £50 for the room for the evening plus £30 for waitress service. I have gone for that option but will confirm details with Daphne when I return. I thought £80 for the whole event is pretty reasonable, especially if we have non listers come and listen. I guess this means that the standard of Music will have to be pretty high. From what I have heard I'm sure it will be. Anyone else in the UK with a burning desire to perform a song or two? PLease email me at: jaz@famelon.demon.co.uk so I can get an idea of what we need to organise. Much Joni Jamie Zubairi I'm so excited!!! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:58:49 +0000 From: catman Subject: NJC Puppies After a labour from 8.30 am Wednesday to 7 am Thursady, Wallis has given birth to 5 babies. 1 died. Two boys and two girls doing fine. Me? I am knackered and off to bed! - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:05:11 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: JoniJest 99 Box Set, CD-R's and Mystery Singer Beverly wrote: > Does anyone know why my DVD player doesn't "recognize" a CD-R? > I now play all my CD's in my DVD player. For lack of room, it replaced my > older carousel. BTW, my DVD player is a Proscan. > > When I insert a CD-R, the digital readout window "says" "no disc." This > happened with all four discs. My DVD player is hooked up to the "good" > equipment and produces the best sound in the house. Not all DVD player "support" CD-R and CD-RW technology. I, too, found that out after purchasing mine. I chastized the techies at Toshiba for not being truthful in their advertisements. When you do listen to your CD's through your DVD player though they should be in the stereo mode and play through only 2 speakers. Then you are enjoying the music as it was recorded. You'll find it is much richer and fuller if unprocessed to simulate pro-logic. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:42:15 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: HB and 'Dreamland' - NJC Helen wrote: >The last dream I remember involved all of >my teeth falling out. There's probably something very Freudian about > >it,I'm sure. This is too weird. I have the all-teeth-falling-out dream frequently. That and the I-can't-walk-anymore-but-no-one-else-notices dream. Recurring dreams. Probably a sign of stress or insecurity. I'd hate to end up toothless! Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:50:30 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: 10 Easy Pieces and Webb in Boston (vljc) Kakki said: >For some reason no names are listed in the index even though he talks > >about just about every major music artist of the past 50 years in the > >book. Maybe he did want to "force" us to read through it! ;-) >Long ago, I posted to the list the pages with Joni's name/content - >I'll >try to see if I have that old post somewhere and let you know. I plan to read the whole book, so don't knock yourself out looking for your list. I also discovered that he had a bunch of thank-you's at the front of the book, among which was Joni's name. I doubt if we can blame him for the index either. I just think it's yet another weird case of Joni synchronicity that 1) Paul talks about Jimmy Webb, 2) I just happen to spot this book in my neighbourhood bookstore (not a big box), hitherto unaware that JW had written a book and 3) then I get to my e-mails on Monday and you've mentioned the book. Will wonders never cease? I hope not! Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:52:32 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: HB and 'Dreamland' - NJC Catherine and Helen admit: >The last dream I remember involved all of > >my teeth falling out. There's probably something > very Freudian about it,I'm sure. Oh you're not going to believe this, but I too, have had a variation on this dream! But in mine, my teeth crumble to dust rather than falling out whole ... I've always thought that if there is, any truth to the subconscious origins of this one, it was certainly seeded by continually repeated parental warnings to "Drink your milk ... all that Coke will rot your teeth!" ... or the equally drummed in ... "You're going to have a mouthful of cavities if you don't stop eating so much candy!" Don Rowe ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:24:47 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: Music... (NJC) Yes Kakki! Thank you for saying it better than I ever could! Harper Lou I agree that it gets carried to ridiculous lengths. It's one thing to perceive certain words as oppressive to various segments of humanity (oops, there's another word with "man" in it) but isn't the policing of language just another form of oppression? And why go back and "cleanse" hymms that were written hundreds of years ago? Wouldn't it be more creative and proactive to write entirely new hymms? I think Lou makes many good points. What if down the road in ourstory, Joni's songs were rewritten to fit the new "paradigm"? Off the top of my head - I am a womyn of heart and mind With time on my hands No biological person I have borne to nurture You come to me like a still growing person And I give you my critical assessment and my positive encouragement You think I'm like you mother, or another person with whom you have been intimate, or your sister or a person you have idealized Or just another still growing person When love causes me to not be actualizing healthy personhood After the enjoyable feelings when you are more grounded Negotiate mutual agreements favorable to you Execute the necessary documentation Accept your commendations Copulate with persons with whom you have not yet achieved a healthy and sustaining bond Does that not leave you with a sense of not acheiving your greatness potential? I think more people than not would find this to be a complete ruinization of Joni's song, sucking all the heart and soul and poetry out of it, even while they found it amusing. Many who have heard "revised" hymms feel the same way. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:10:00 -0600 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - November 12 1994: Turbulent Indigo debuts at its #47 peak on the US charts. - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:22:44 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: november 11 njc To Joni's Scorpio twin of spirit, Julie, aka Don Juan's Fertile Daughter "They say it's your birthday...." and you look mahvelous dahling! Hope you have a "recklessly" fun day! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:27:53 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Puppies In a message dated 11/11/1999 1:02:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: << After a labour from 8.30 am Wednesday to 7 am Thursady, Wallis has given birth to 5 babies. 1 died. Two boys and two girls doing fine. Me? I am knackered and off to bed! >> CONGRATS on the new babies!!! Keep them safe and I hope Mama is doing well also! Hugs! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:31:11 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: 10 Easy Pieces and Webb in Boston (vljc) > I plan to read the whole book, so don't knock yourself out looking for your > list. I also discovered that he had a bunch of thank-you's at the front of > the book, among which was Joni's name. I doubt if we can blame him for the > index either. I just think it's yet another weird case of Joni > synchronicity that 1) Paul talks about Jimmy Webb, 2) I just happen to spot > this book in my neighbourhood bookstore (not a big box), hitherto unaware > that JW had written a book and 3) then I get to my e-mails on Monday and > you've mentioned the book. > > Will wonders never cease? I hope not! Catherine, I'm also on the Jimmy Webb list and Paul was chatting about us from the Joni list and caught the personal attention of Mr. Webb himself! The subject of the index came up and his assistant said that he deliberately excluded the names from the index because he wanted people to read about the art of songwriting and not buy the book because it was a "who's who." I found the book very enjoyable to read and full of heart. He's scheduled to perform here again in Hollywood sometime in February - I'll be there. Kakki NP: Steely Dan - I Got The News ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:52:42 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: JoniJest 99 Box Set, CD-R's and Mystery Singer Bev asked: > Question: WHO is that singing "My Funny Valentine" at the end of the CD at > Atty May's? All I can is - WOW! I love this standard and love this > singer's vocal gymnastics; going almost Minnie Ripperton (compliment) in > some places, and dropping down a couple of octaves on the next note, only to > jump back up again. I was just blown away. The singer wasn't credited. Is > it a new list member? Would love to hear more! Ha! I wish one of us could claim credit, but this was performed by one of the singers from the stupendous band that followed us at Atty May's. Yes, she was a complete mindblower! I'm so glad this has been included as a "bonus" cut on the JF Boxed Set!! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:40:45 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: language NJC (long) This is rather long and ALL ABOUT PC so please delete now if you're not interested. David Wright wrote: > What's with this knee-jerk dismissal of those of us who would just > like to suggest that it's possible for *both* words ("history/herstory") > and the issues they raise be taken seriously? (As I said already: I think > "herstory" is a great word, but I don't necessarily use it all the time or > even very often.) Even if you contend that "herstory" is already > encompassed by the term "history," it'd just be one more synonym in a > language already crowded with them. (Or are all those other synonyms > "ludicrous" too?) What are you all so afraid of? I, too, am very surprised at all this heat, especially from Joni fans who surely love words and take pleasure in how creatively they can be used. It's as though people are saying words are set in stone, never to be changed; and merely considering how language reflects a speaker's attitude and cultural reality is being completely ridiculed. New words are created all the time; that's why Shakespeare sounds so odd to us and why there are new editions of dictionaries; so what's the anger in this thread all about? Is this an expression of discomfort or annoyance with the DJRD thread? Here are some of my thoughts about issues that have been raised: Do we need herstory, ourstory, A-story in addition to history? I don't think the question is about those specific words; it's the awareness behind that question that is important. As an example: What does it say about a society that makes it obvious that the marital status of a woman must be public knowledge, but not that of a man? That issue led to the use of Ms. as a title for women in addition to Miss or Mrs. That word was harshly ridiculed at first, and probably there are many people even now who make fun of it, but I'm very glad to have Ms. as an option. Strangers and prospective employers might want to know my personal situation, but it's really none of their business. Men have always been allowed that autonomy; why not women? I don't agree at all that PC-ness lessens creativity. Instead, it opens it up, causing or forcing a person to at least think about particular words instead of just using the familiar ones. The words may sound odd, ugly even, and using them probably won't be comfortable, but that's the nature of anything new. PC-ness might go too far, perhaps into meaninglessness, but I think it's better to try something that might be flawed than to stick with the old and familiar only because it's comfortable. To me, it's the idea behind the attempt that's important, and if one way of expressing that new idea doesn't work, then another can be tried. Whether old hymns should be changed... I'd say yes if people trying to spread Christ's message want women to continue sitting in the pews. I do my best to ignore the "when I became a man..." reading from Corinthians, for example, but every time I hear it or all the other man references in hymns or from the Bible (and there are LOTS of them), I feel excluded. As much as I try to keep in mind the etymology of certain words and intellectually understand that "man" includes me, it doesn't feel that way, and hymns especially need to engage the feelings, not just the intellect. So, of course, most men are comfortable with hearing "man" over and over, and would see no reason for any change; it just FEELS right -- well OF COURSE it does; that doesn't mean it IS right. This concern would not have been a part of my (or anyone's) consciousness if I'd been around when the Bible was written, or even as recently as 20-25? years ago, but it IS a part of my awareness now. For the Bible or hymns or language to continue to be meaningful they HAVE to change. It may be the demand to make sudden, instant changes that some of you are objecting to, and that can be jarring (although everything now seems unnaturally speeded up), but to confuse that discomfort with lack of the need for language to evolve is putting energy in the wrong place, in my opinion; it's just another way of avoiding some uncomfortable issues. If you're willing to only use language from an earlier time, be aware that the attitudes you're expressing are also from an earlier time, since there's no separation of language and attitude. Speech over... Debra Shea ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #508 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! 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