From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #507 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, November 11 1999 Volume 04 : Number 507 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: Music... (NJC) ["Wally Kairuz" ] No we know (NJC) [Michael Paz ] Re: Music... (NJC) [catman ] november 11 njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] joni on blade album/HDCD [Bounced Message ] Re: Music... (NJC) ["Kakki" ] JoniJest 99 Box Set, CD-R's and Mystery Singer ["Beverly" ] Re: Music... (NJC) [CaTGirl627@aol.com] RE: language (NJC) ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: language (NJC) [David Wright ] Anthology ["Russell Bowden" ] RE: language (NJC) [David Wright ] Re: Joni's Jazz [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: language (NJC) [CaTGirl627@aol.com] (JC?) re: PC, but not for me! [Kate Tarasenko ] RE: language (NJC) ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Music... (NJC) [catman ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 01:02:38 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Music... (NJC) kakki! you're so naughty!!! wallyk > I am a womyn of heart and mind > With time on my hands > No biological person I have borne to nurture > You come to me like a still growing person ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:13:52 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: No we know (NJC) Marcel wrote: " Absolutely should be PERSONstory." Now we know where untoldstory came from. I personally like "listory" Paz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 04:26:38 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Music... (NJC) Kakkie-brilliant but have to confess I don't know what most of it means! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 01:39:01 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: november 11 njc well, folks, where i'm sitting november 11 rolled in about an hour and a half ago. no more delaying, now. no more dilly dallying, please. raise your glasses to celebrate the birthday of LONG-LOST SISTER GIFTED WRITER TRINKET FINDER LAURA-NYRO LOOKALIKE MOVIE CRITIC EXTRAORDINAIRE MS. JULIE Z WEBB!!!!! i was just about to call you and wake you up, julie, but i thought i'd spare your family the scary call-in-the-middle-of-the-night feeling for the time being. enormous love and happy days, sweetie! wallyk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:31:12 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: joni on blade album/HDCD Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:36:44 -0500 From: BarBearUh Subject: joni on blade album/HDCD delurking for a moment to pass on some of today's joni news... joni will be singing on brian blade's next album. see here for more (including joni pix): http://www.cdnow.com/cgi-bin/mserver/redirect/leaf=allstararticle/fid=155786 Bob wrote: > Is there a significant difference in the HDCD version > sound-wise? My CD player is NOT an HDCD player, but I bought S&L in HDCD > and wow, it really jumps out at ya'. I'm thinking of upgrading my reular > Joni CD's to HDCD and donating my old ones to the library... here's my take on this - i don't know how much the HDCD process does for the discs, but in general, the HDCD discs are remastered and the ones that aren't, well, aren't. what's really different is probably that the original CD releases were crap. BTW - great thread on 'dreamland'! barbara np: poi dog pondering, pomegranate ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:47:28 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Music... (NJC) > Kakkie-brilliant but have to confess I don't know what most of it means! Thank you, colin. I guess it shows that there is a danger in deconstructing and reconstructing the words of another - it can remove most, if not all, of the original meaning intended by the speaker or writer. In addition to clinically correct and literal language, there is a language of the heart and a language of metaphor. Purging those other languages from communication can render it totally unintelligible or meaningless. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 23:44:07 -0500 From: "Beverly" Subject: JoniJest 99 Box Set, CD-R's and Mystery Singer Hi all, I'm de-lurking for a couple of comments and questions. I received my boxed set last week. Thanks, Les!! It's been such a pleasure to listen to so many talented list members interpret Joni's music. The recording quality is terrific! I'm just amazed! Everyone was great! I came sooo close to being there. This set is the next best thing. Question: Does anyone know why my DVD player doesn't "recognize" a CD-R? I now play all my CD's in my DVD player. For lack of room, it replaced my older carousel. BTW, my DVD player is a Proscan. When I insert a CD-R, the digital readout window "says" "no disc." This happened with all four discs. My DVD player is hooked up to the "good" equipment and produces the best sound in the house. I was really disappointed that I couldn't savor this music on five speakers, etc. I can play them in my computer and in my car. Question: WHO is that singing "My Funny Valentine" at the end of the CD at Atty May's? All I can is - WOW! I love this standard and love this singer's vocal gymnastics; going almost Minnie Ripperton (compliment) in some places, and dropping down a couple of octaves on the next note, only to jump back up again. I was just blown away. The singer wasn't credited. Is it a new list member? Would love to hear more! Bev ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 23:50:09 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: RE: language (NJC) On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, Wally Kairuz wrote: > the word "herstory" is one of the most ludicrous terms ever coined. What's ludicrous about it? The concept that women have stories too? > to make matters worse, it ridicules the struggle of feminists by giving > arguments to those that dismiss the whole feminist movement as a mere > fight over names. If you're looking for excuses to ridicule the feminist movement, I'm sure you'll find them whether certain feminists (or other people) use the word "herstory" or not. > we are all men, linguistically speaking. Now who's perpetrating linguistic jokes? *This* is ludicrous. We're not all men. Some of us are women. Is "etymology" now supposed to take precedence over reality? (And don't people use words whether or not they know, or care, about its etymology?) - --David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 00:06:26 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Music... (NJC) In a message dated 11/10/1999 5:43:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, lworster@taconic.net writes: << PS Ourstory would be better than history or herstory. > > > good one, Colin! >> How about A-Story? Who are we to say it is our story? What happened to the other species on this earth and their story? Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 02:12:19 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: language (NJC) david objected to my statement: > > the word "herstory" is one of the most ludicrous terms ever coined. by saying: > What's ludicrous about it? The concept that women have stories > too? my answer: no, the fact that the word can be construed as an affirmation that women have history too. he went on to cite: > > to make matters worse, it ridicules the struggle of feminists by giving > > arguments to those that dismiss the whole feminist movement as a mere > > fight over names. and commented: > If you're looking for excuses to ridicule the feminist movement, > I'm sure you'll find them whether certain feminists (or other people) use > the word "herstory" or not. my answer: certainly. but that doesn't make the word any less ridiculous. david selected: > > we are all men, linguistically speaking. to exclaim: > Now who's perpetrating linguistic jokes? *This* is ludicrous. > We're not all men. Some of us are women. my answer: notice that i wrote "linguistically speaking". i didn't refer to gender, anatomy or self-representation david wondered: >Is "etymology" now supposed to > take precedence over reality? my answer: the whole issue revolves around etymology. the alternate spelling for woman and the word herstory were created based on the assumption that history means his story and woman means wife of man. it was a matter of etymology before i wrote my post. david finally asks: > (And don't people use words whether or not they know, or care, > about its etymology?) my answer: most apparently. wallyk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 00:42:51 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: RE: language (NJC) My, I'm certainly active, aren't I? I "objected," "went on to cite," "commented," "selected," "wondered," and "finally asked," all in one post. How remarkable. Wally Kairuz wrote: > > If you're looking for excuses to ridicule the feminist movement, > > I'm sure you'll find them whether certain feminists (or other people) > > use the word "herstory" or not. > > my answer: certainly. but that doesn't make the word any less > ridiculous. The word's not more ridiculous than any other word to begin with. Now then, Pat Robertson accuses all feminists of being lesbians (and witches and baby-killers). By your reasoning, we should therefore ban lesbianism or lesbians from the feminist movement (or ban feminists from being lesbians) because that might give him more ammunition? > the alternate spelling for woman and the word herstory were created > based on the assumption that history means his story and woman means > wife of man. No, they were created based on the *reality* that that's how those words are often *used* -- both by people who aren't aware of their etymology, and, "quite apparently," Wally, by those who are. What's with this knee-jerk dismissal of those of us who would just like to suggest that it's possible for *both* words ("history/herstory") and the issues they raise be taken seriously? (As I said already: I think "herstory" is a great word, but I don't necessarily use it all the time or even very often.) Even if you contend that "herstory" is already encompassed by the term "history," it'd just be one more synonym in a language already crowded with them. (Or are all those other synonyms "ludicrous" too?) What are you all so afraid of? - --David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:44:16 PST From: "Russell Bowden" Subject: Anthology I just saw this songbook with piano vocal and guitar tunings in my local music store here in Eugene... Wilson Music House 943 Olive St. Eugene, OR 541-345-5312 They had a few other Joni's...Hits and Missed and The Best of Joni Mitchell... Info on another music place in Oregon (Portland) order phone is 1-800-876-9777 Portland Music Company AND try this one: 1-800-452-1133 Sheet Music Service Good Luck. Love, Russ NPIMH Hunter from the orginal Blue..Thank YOU, Kakki ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 00:50:19 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: RE: language (NJC) On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, David Wright wrote: > No, they were created based on the *reality* that that's how those > words are often *used* -- both by people who aren't aware of their > etymology, and, "quite apparently," Wally, by those who are. Oops, that should have been "'most apparently,' Wally." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 01:11:17 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's Jazz In a message dated 11/10/1999 7:03:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, AzeemAK@aol.com writes: << Well call me a wet blanket, but I've been hugely disappointed by most of what I've heard up to now (I've got as far as A Strange Boy). Mostly it's the singing that just doesn't hit the spot. Toshi Reagon is shouting by the end of Trouble Child, Christina Wheeler seems out of her depth, Eric Anderson is, I'm sorry to say, awful; PM Dawn on I's A Muggin' got on my nerves and Joy Askew over-emotes and seems to miss the point completely. Duncan Sheik is okay on Court & Spark, Chaka is touching on wonderful on Hissing, though shaky on Don't Interrupt the Sorrow. I may be biased, but I was expecting the worst of Jane Siberry's performances from what had been posted previously, and actually I think they're pretty good: she seems to "get" the songs, doesn't mess around with them too much and doesn't sound like she's straining, which most of the others are. Erin Hamilton certainly sounds like she's got the chops needed, and the highlight for me is John Kelly - this man really can sing. Ah well, can't please all of the people all of the time... Azeem >> THANK YOU Azeem. I didn't want to speak up but since you mentioned it, I thought it was horrible myself. I could barely get thru the first tape. They all kept messing up on songs and their vocals were quite lame. I thought the Joni listers at Asharas sounded much better then these so called professionals!! When I's a mussin came on it went off!!!! Catgirl preparing for the slings and arrows! (((duck!!))))) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 01:26:09 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: language (NJC) In a message dated 11/11/1999 12:27:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, wallykai@interserver.com.ar writes: << the word "herstory" is one of the most ludicrous terms ever coined. to make matters worse, it ridicules the struggle of feminists by giving arguments to those that dismiss the whole feminist movement as a mere fight over names. >> Oh I agree and so is history!!!! When this word first came out it was a very derogatory statment towrds women as a whole. It says exactly what it means...his story and nothing more. As well, women have been opressed way to long!! Women of the past have fought very hard to even just vote in this country. Women have been second class citizens way too long. I feel very fortunate to be born in this time and this place for we have it better then we had it in a long long time. In a perfect world EVERYONE would be equal...no such luck! Catgirl trying to make sense without getting into a big to-do... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 23:57:22 +0000 From: Kate Tarasenko Subject: (JC?) re: PC, but not for me! Kakki sang: "I am a womyn of heart and mind With time on my hands No biological person I have borne to nurture You come to me like a still growing person And I give you my critical assessment and my positive encouragement You think I'm like you mother, or another person with whom you have been intimate, or your sister or a person you have idealized Or just another still growing person When love causes me to not be actualizing healthy personhood After the enjoyable feelings when you are more grounded Negotiate mutual agreements favorable to you Execute the necessary documentation Accept your commendations Copulate with persons with whom you have not yet achieved a healthy and sustaining bond Does that not leave you with a sense of not acheiving your greatness potential?" Kakki -- This goes into the JMDL Hall of Fame!!!! I'm still laughing -- THANKS!!! Kate in CO ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 04:05:38 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: language (NJC) > My, I'm certainly active, aren't I? I "objected," "went on to cite," > "commented," "selected," "wondered," and "finally asked," all in one post. > How remarkable. facetiousness won't help make your argument stronger, david > Wally Kairuz wrote: > > > If you're looking for excuses to ridicule the feminist movement, > > > I'm sure you'll find them whether certain feminists (or other people) > > > use the word "herstory" or not. > > > > my answer: certainly. but that doesn't make the word any less > > ridiculous. > > The word's not more ridiculous than any other word to begin with. > Now then, Pat Robertson accuses all feminists of being lesbians (and > witches and baby-killers). By your reasoning, we should therefore ban > lesbianism or lesbians from the feminist movement (or ban feminists from > being lesbians) because that might give him more ammunition? the analogy is faulty. lesbians are not artificial concoctions created by linguistically incompetent speakers. > > the alternate spelling for woman and the word herstory were created > > based on the assumption that history means his story and woman means > > wife of man. > > No, they were created based on the *reality* that that's how those > words are often *used* -- both by people who aren't aware of their > etymology, and, "quite apparently," Wally, by those who are. since i have never met people that have used the words history and woman to assert any aspect of their personalities or social ranks or sense of self-worth, i cannot assess that *reality* you seem to ascribe to everybody's experience. to respond to your post i used reference books both to determne the etymology of the words at hand and to trace the origins of the word herstory and of the alternate spelling of woman. > What's with this knee-jerk dismissal of those of us who would just > like to suggest that it's possible for *both* words ("history/herstory") > and the issues they raise be taken seriously? (As I said already: I think > "herstory" is a great word, but I don't necessarily use it all the time or > even very often.) Even if you contend that "herstory" is already > encompassed by the term "history," it'd just be one more synonym in a > language already crowded with them. (Or are all those other synonyms > "ludicrous" too?) What are you all so afraid of? let's break this down: my post dismisses the terms, perhaps even their creators, but not the users. the reason for my dismissal is that i sincerely believe that the words herstory and wymyn are worthless and nonsensical. they do a disservice to the cause of liberation because they banalize language and its political power by playing with false etymologies and creating the inaccurate impression that something has been achieved in the struggle for the recognition of the rights for women by simply tampering with the spelling. once again: the first three letters in the word history are not the english word his. for example, the spanish and french words for history begin with exactly the same three letters as does the english word; however, the possessive adjectives equivalent to his are su in spanish and son/sa in french. if the word history meant his story then the word historia [spanish for history] should be sutoria and the word histoire [french for history] should be satoire or sontoire. none of these words exist in either spanish or french. the initial three letters in the word history coincide with but do not mean the possessive adjective his. what's more, it would be a tremendous display of ethnocentrism to assume that because the english word his is a formal part of the word history, then the greek word "histor" [the origin of the word history and its equivalents in most western languages] must have actually been an english word, thus reversing the course of history -- literally. as to the issues implied by the coexistence of the words history and herstory in some people's language, i cannot but emphasize that they must be taken seriously, as they predate the existence of the word herstory and should not be mistaken for the word. i do not quite follow your reasoning, david, when you suggest that i am not fond of synonyms. i am, indeed, very keen on synonyms. they greatly add to the beauty of language. i, for one, do not find the english language crowded with synonyms. i consider that there are exactly as many as we need. moreover, synonyms do not make me apprehensive in the least. if asked what i am afraid of, i will haste to answer that i am afraid of nothing. still, i am very distressed when linguistic cuties are mistaken for actions and wisecracking for intelligence. wallyk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:07:47 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Music... (NJC) My dogs and cats quite agree with you Catgirl. CaTGirl627@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/10/1999 5:43:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, > lworster@taconic.net writes: > > << PS Ourstory would be better than history or herstory. > > > > > > > > good one, Colin! > > >> > How about A-Story? Who are we to say it is our story? What happened to > the other species on this earth and their story? > Catgirl - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #507 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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