From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #506 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Wednesday, November 10 1999 Volume 04 : Number 506 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re[2]: Re[2]: My Dinner with Joni ["Lori REASON"] thank you [charles atlas sheppard ] Re: false alarms kinda long - longer now! ["Helen M. Adcock" ] BEAUTIFUL Rainbow!! [Julian51469@aol.com] Furry Jazzed Up [James Leahy ] Hissing Demos. [Richard Rice ] Re: Music of the Heart: GO NJC ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Thanksgiving rev./&DJRD ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Hissing Demos. [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Music Of The Heart: GO NJC [catman ] Grace of My Heart [Jerry Notaro ] Learning to love DJRD [Martin Giles ] Joni in the Malls - "Conversation" LOTC ["Brett Code" ] Travis record Joni again [Gertus@aol.com] Re: Music... (NJC) [catman ] Re: Music... (NJC) [catman ] Firesign NJC [Randy Remote ] Re: Music... (NJC) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: NJC: US Xmas vs. Kiwi Xmas - very, very, very long ["Catherine McKay"] RE: Music... (NJC) [Louis Lynch ] Re: Music... (NJC) [Linda Worster ] Re: Joni in the Malls - "Conversation" LOTC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] digest help needed (NJC) [kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)] Re: Joni in the Malls - "Conversation" LOTC ["Kakki" ] Re: Music... (NJC) [catman ] Joni's Jazz [AzeemAK@aol.com] NJC Gigs of the Year NJC - (but Sib content!) [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: language (NJC) [AzeemAK@aol.com] Dog gone it NJC [catman ] RE: Music... (NJC) [David Wright ] Re: Music... (NJC) [catman ] Re: Music... (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: Joni's Jazz ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: NJC: Thanksgiving rev. [Drewdix@aol.com] RE: language (NJC) ["Wally Kairuz" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:55:56 +0100 From: "Lori REASON" Subject: Re[2]: Re[2]: My Dinner with Joni Well hey, bring him to New Orleans in May! Lori *************** FIRESIGN THEATRE??? Phil Proctor was a high school classmate of mine and still is a good friend. D LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 01:58:48 -0800 (PST) From: charles atlas sheppard Subject: thank you I want to thank y'all for being you. I have been on this list for a few weeks. I love the posts but I have to quit for awhile. I will be back. Thank you for downloading my screensavers. If you have personal requests for other artists please let me know and I will see what I can do. good night ===== Be cool, stay warm Charles Atlas Sheppard Support The Nepenthe Journal http://www.freespeech.org/tumbleweed Click on the text link below: Protect Your Privacy on the web! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 23:27:31 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: false alarms kinda long - longer now! Raffaele wrote: >However, I still like to think of this verse ('Maybe I've never really >loved...') as the sad confession of a human being whose sensibility leads >he/she to a sort of isolation from the crowd, not because of pretenciousness >but because of the willingness of looking for more, because of a struggle >going on in his/her spirit. Living in such a state of mind (with the 'mind >in the clouds') can be dangerous at times: you look down at the crowd, at >what you have achieved so far, at the chaos of what's around and (possibly) >of your whole life, you lose your balance, stumble and crash down back to >earth. Sometimes you "crash in somebody's arms" and think you might have >finally fulfilled your dreams, but after a while you just realise it has >been another false alarm. Then you can only wish to take off again and reach >for the clouds. I know we've discussed "Amelia" before, but I just had to say that I find this interpretation really interesting. Mainly because it's similar to how I've always interpreted the song myself. Personally, it's one of my alltime favourite JM songs because I relate to it so closely. But I don't think of it as a "sad" confession, more of a "realistic" confession, in that she's becoming aware, through her journey across the country alone (with her thoughts), of her own limitations and "failure" in relationships. Failures is not the word I want to use (or limitations, for that matter), but I can't actually think of a better one at the moment (imagine - Helen's stumped for words!). And maybe the lines "I've spent my whole life in clouds at icy altitude, And looking down on everything" don't mean that she's felt like she's "above" everyone, but that she's just felt that she's been watching everyone else from afar, in order to find her own place in the world. "People will tell you where they've gone..." This verse is amazing. In a few short lines she's summed up my life! People telling me how to live my life, what I should do, when I should do it, when in the end, I need to find my own place. What was right for my mother, brother, sister, cousin is not necessarily right for me - far from it, as it turns out! I've spent 30 years doing what I was told, or was expected to do, instead of doing what I felt, and it's only in the last couple of years that I'm beginning to work that out. Some of my revelations/realisations are going to hurt, shock, disappoint, and delight different people, according to their expectations of me, but my highest priority is me, so everyone's going to just have to like it or lump it! I'm feeling strangely philosophical tonight. Not sure if it's the pouring rain (and almost unbearable humidity accompanying it) or just because it's late and I've had insomnia for the last 4 nights, but just felt like venting a little - and what better way to do it, than to talk about Joni. That's the other thing I love about her. Give me any emotion, and I'll give you a JM song to match it! Try THAT with the Spice Girls! Anyway, I better "try" and get some sleep, though no doubt I'll be switching on again at about 4am! Helen _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 23:37:33 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: De-lurking for Joni's Birthday Jimmy wrote: >SOLD!!!! I'll be there tomorrow Rainbow (if I can scrape up enough aluminum >cans to pay for the flight) I've never been to Hawaii, but hear it's >beautiful. Maybe we can have a Joni-fest there!!! Kakki's a world traveler, >so we can all sneak in her large suitcase and fly for free. Heck, it's close >enough for Pat Henry in Guam to go too! I second the motion! I spent two weeks on Maui about 4 years ago, and have been dying to go back ever since! I absolutely loved the place - so much that I actually seriously thought about moving there! But of course I couldn't subject my baby (cat) to six months of quarantine, so it never happened! But I've never, ever had such a great time on a holiday. I recommend it to everyone! Helen _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:52:43 EST From: Julian51469@aol.com Subject: BEAUTIFUL Rainbow!! Thank you for such a beautiful post. I have saved it in my personal Joni archives. When I got back on the net, the first thing that I did was look up Joni and company. I don't think that I can help you financially in the way of getting to New Orleans for Joni-fest but I shall encourage and send wishes your way so that you may meet my wife and I there when the time comes. The other day I mentioned to my wife that there would be a Joni-fest in New Orleans and she suprised me by saying, "Cool, let's go!" (Seeing as how we were on our honeymoon during the last Joni-fest.) << "For Joni Mitchell--When She Gets It All Together":>> Thanks to Joni speaking her truths we can get closer to ours. Shaka, Julian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:55:44 -0500 From: James Leahy Subject: Furry Jazzed Up I heard yet another Joni cover on CBC Radio -- Ian Shaw singing "Furry Sings the Blues" from his album of pop standards called "In a New York Minute." Also, a pic of Joni is included in Bryan Adams' book of photos of distinguished Canadian women "Made in Canada." Proceeds from the book go to breast cancer research. Joni is depicted holding up a circular plaque of West Coast native design over her heart. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:23:58 -0500 From: Richard Rice Subject: Hissing Demos. Hello All. The weather here in the midwest is beyond being wonderful. What a great way to ease into the holiday season! I just had my first ear full of the Hissing Demos. ....WOW!!! Fun stuff. I love the take on Dreamland here. Many thanks to Bob Muller for the tapes! Even more thanks for doing some twice. Such amazing generosity. --I would thank you privately save for being confused as to your address. Is your email address SCJoniGuy, now? The Hissing Demos, joy that they are, left me a little confused. I assume these arrangements were done well before Joni gathered a band to produce the album. If so, that amazes me. I always thought of Hissing as being the end product of musical discovery Joni made in the company of other jazz musicians, and that the arrangements were created in a more interactive, improvisational way. Joni Jazz session in a sense. Instead, it seems these pieces were fully formed in Joni's mind well before any artists were culled together to make music. --And what beautiful music it is! Where did these tapes come from? Did the person who supplied them give any information regarding the development of this recording? Joni's ability to arrange a song is absolutely brilliant. Why does MTV waste time 'Real Worlding' snot nosed brats? Imagine a series where Joni is followed w a camera to see the development of a song cycle from first probing into new tunings to the finished CD package, complete with art. I image, for some, such revelations might kill the magic, but for me I would love to hear and see how this process created such wonderful, wonderful tunes as 'Yvette in English." Wish I had more answers than questions. John. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:37:47 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Music of the Heart: GO NJC Colin, on the topic of political correctness, said: "I can see how some of it has become ridiculous, like not being able to call a blackboard a blackboard anymore." If people are objecting to that name because they think it has something to do with skin colour, then they are quite mistaken. In the old days, most chalkboards were black and that's why they were called blackboards. Most of the ones in my school were green and yet we often continued to call them blackboards out of habit, while recognizing how silly it was, but finding "greenboard" didn't sound quite right either. More recently, most schools have a number of different types of boards, including the white ones where you use (supposedly) washable markers (haha, those are fun to clean!), as well as the ones (in a multitude of colours) where you use chalk (also in a multitude of colours, which is a lot of fun). I don't think it ever had a racist connotation, but you're right - it gets silly. What happens is that you start worrying about anything that has a colour in it, in case it could be construed as racist. Someone I used to work with went to work for the Human Rights Commission. He made the mistake of using the phrase, "Let's call a spade a spade". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there was ever a racist intent in that at all, and yet some of his co-workers were very offended at his saying that. Needless to say, that's one phrase I myself wouldn't use any more on that basis (not that it was up there among my top ten cliches!) and yet, it's easy to understand how a person might say something in all innocence and be slammed for saying it and then wonder what the heck they did wrong. For example, apparently the phrase "rule of thumb" comes from English common law, where it was OK to beat your wife, as long as the stick you used to beat her with was no thicker than your thumb. And yet many people saying it have no idea of its origin. On the other hand, when you start changing "history" to "herstory" and spelling women as wymyn (which I like to pronounce "why mine?" or wimmin, that is just plain silly. Noting the quote from Orwell that Evian included at the bottom of one of his recent e-mails, perhaps thinking no one would notice ;) "The slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts." To which I pose the rhetorical question, "Or is it the slovenliness of our thoughts that makes us easier to have foolish language? or the foolishness of our thoughts that makes it easier to have slovenly language?" and so on. Evian, loved the quote - if I knew how to do needlepoint (or cared to know!), that's one that you'd probably find framed in a conspicuous place in my home and my office. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:51:39 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Thanksgiving rev./&DJRD Drew asked: "I am looking for DJRD on CD, and don't have much experience with ordering records other than through the mainstream. Where the heck can I get it? (Virgin, Tower, no go, even here in the NY area". I'm really behind on reading my e-mails, so I'm sure someone will have answered this already. I recently bought DJRD through CD-Now on the net - however, I've just read (and read it here!) that they're doing HDCD versions of all of Joni's stuff now (is it true?). That figures, now that I've finally got it. Oh well, that goes on the wish list now. If it's Joni, I don't mind buying another one, if for no other reason, than to boost her sales and confuse the heck out of the marketing types. My experience with CD-Now has been positive - I ordered CDs on the net and rec'd them about 2 weeks later. And, in my case, coming from the US to Canada, they have to go through customs. A lot of this customs hassle we used to get when ordering from the US has been cleaned up, so you don't acutally have to go down to the post office to pay duty and sign a billion forms anymore - they take care of all that for you, so you don't even notice that part. I actually found Mingus and STAS last week on CD in Indigo (this is a big-box book/CD/video chain, maybe this particular chain is Canadian only, I dunno, but there are similar ones elsewhere - this is the type of place I usually avoid like the plague for various reasons, but mostly due to mall phobia). I was surprised and delighted that they had them at all, but disappointed that they were the "special price" versions, which means not much to the booklet (on Mingus anyway.) Can anyone tell me whether the original LP had more stuff in it? e.g., the lyrics to the songs and more Joni art? All this had was Joni's blurb about Charles Mingus, the names of the songs and who played on the album, nothing more. Disappointing yes, but better than nothing at all. At the same time, treated myself to Jonatha Brooke's "10-cent wings", Bruce Cockburn's "Breakfast in NO..." and Emmy Lou Harris' "Wrecking Ball". Yee-haw! Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:01:59 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Hissing Demos. John said: <> I created "SCJoniguy" for my Joni correspondence, but "RMuRocks" is still good as well... > Why does MTV waste time 'Real Worlding' snot nosed brats? Imagine a > series where Joni is followed w a camera to see the development of a > song cycle from first probing into new tunings to the finished CD > package, complete with art.>> This is a WONDERFUL idea, John...Joni deserves SO much more attention than she gets...I wonder sometimes as I go through the wealth of unreleased Joni stuff why we have rarities/live box sets from The Doors (who only lasted a short time and debatedly only released 3 decent records), yet we have nothing officially from Joni! She is the top of the musical heap obviously. Of course, the set wouldn't be a best-seller, but I'll bet whoever releases it could make some money on it. They should know about how many units they could sell, and if they released it around this time of year, they get a push from Christmas and boom - there ya go! Maybe between Asylum, WB, Reprise, Geffen, etc. they can't come to terms... <> Well now, we can probably ALL make that statement!:~) Glad you're enjoying the music! Bob NP: Blues Traveler, "Runaround" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:34:01 +0000 From: catman Subject: Music Of The Heart: GO NJC Catherine McKay wrote: > Colin, on the topic of political correctness, said: "I can see how some of > it has become ridiculous, like not being able to call a blackboard a > blackboard anymore." > > If people are objecting to that name because they think it has something to > do with skin colour, then they are quite mistaken. In the old days, most > chalkboards were black and that's why they were called blackboards. Yes I am not that young! I know what blackboards are ;-)Actaully they even banned the use of black dustbin bags and are now grey! Also, the gollywog is no longer llowed. Now this one I can see but have to say that I never, ever equated a gollywog with black people. to me it was a toy or a sticker on jars of Robertsons jam. However, I can see why that particular toy might cause offence. > What happens is that you start worrying about anything that has a colour in > it, in case it could be construed as racist. Someone I used to work with > went to work for the Human Rights Commission. He made the mistake of using > the phrase, "Let's call a spade a spade". not in his use no. However, spade is another term for black person. > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I > don't think there was ever a racist intent in that at all, and yet some of > his co-workers were very offended at his saying that. Needless to say, > that's one phrase I myself wouldn't use any more on that basis (not that it > was up there among my top ten cliches!) and yet, it's easy to understand how > a person might say something in all innocence and be slammed for saying it > and then wonder what the heck they did wrong. > > For example, apparently the phrase "rule of thumb" comes from English common > law, where it was OK to beat your wife, as long as the stick you used to > beat her with was no thicker than your thumb. And yet many people saying it > have no idea of its origin. I didn't know that. That is very interesting. I always thought it was a very strange saying-now i know it has a meaning. You know you Canadians seem to use a lot of language that we do! i must of the two countries, i feel i would rather live in Canada. Beautiful as is New England but I felt much safer in Canada. > > > On the other hand, when you start changing "history" to "herstory" and > spelling women as wymyn (which I like to pronounce "why mine?" or wimmin, > that is just plain silly. > > Noting the quote from Orwell that Evian included at the bottom of one of his > recent e-mails, perhaps thinking no one would notice ;) "The slovenliness of > our language makes it easier for us to have foolish > thoughts." To which I pose the rhetorical question, "Or is it the > slovenliness of our thoughts that makes us easier to have foolish language? > or the foolishness of our thoughts that makes it easier to have slovenly > language?" and so on. Evian, loved the quote - if I knew how to do > needlepoint (or cared to know!), that's one that you'd probably find framed > in a conspicuous place in my home and my office. I agree with you-it is our thoughts that cause the problem first. bw - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:08:35 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Grace of My Heart Finally got to watch my DVD of Grace of My Heart. Man From Mars makes perfect sense lyrically once you have seen the movie. And a bonus appearance by Shawn Colvin. I enjoyed it and watched the bonus program on the making of the film and the 2 hour commentary by the director as the movie played again. That is the beauty of DVD's for a movie lover like me. Larry Klein is the music director and he makes no mention of Joni or the song. Allison does mention the cd release mix up. But there are many Joni mentions in her running commentary. If you have a DVD player I highly recommend it. I thought the musical performances were outstanding, though the storyline was a tad on the soapy side. Jerry np: George Winston - Plains ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:16:58 +0000 From: Martin Giles Subject: Learning to love DJRD Debra said at the weekend.. > DJRD is more of a "pleasure in > sound-making" album, whereas her earlier albums were very wordy, more > cerebral and not as much fun sound-wise. And I'm days behind here as usual, being a 'work access, digest receiver'... I bought DJRD only a couple of months ago, and thinking back on it, I've had a very different way of 'discovering' this album from any other of Joni's. I've realised that I haven't yet paid much attention to the words. i'm completely absorbed in the sound of the album. Joni has used a broader palette of sounds on this album than any other, IMO. Scratchy acoustic and 'jazzy' bass, a whole orchestra, all that fabulous latin percussion, things crossfading out of nowhere, jazzy solos... It's very different from her norm (whatever that might be) and hints strongly at things to come on Mingus. I find that if (as in this case) it takes me a while to get into a piece of music, that I end up loving it more deeply and for much longer than something I 'got' immediately. I'm getting a wonderful sense of anticipation about DJRD - I know that I'm falling in love...slowly. What's the line in dreamland, something about, "burning inside with the thought of things to come". Hope that's right, like I said, I haven't been paying much attention to the lyrics yet. It comes to mind as the previous line has been the subject of much discussion recently! For what it's worth, I prefer to think that the couple in question are anticipating a passionate encounter together, just like I am with the album as a whole. Goin' home now to play it again.......... Martin. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:34:22 -0700 From: "Brett Code" Subject: Joni in the Malls - "Conversation" LOTC At lunch today in the food court of my office tower, I cheered right up when "Conversation" came floating through the air. It's funny that these mall and grocery store people don't just use the hits but pick interesting and somewhat obscure songs to play for people as they shop. Does anyone even know anyone not on the list who has ever heard of "Conversation"? Did it ever get radio play? Obviously Ladies of the Canyon sold more than 600 copies, so lots of people would have heard it - but. . . I wonder why they play somewhat more obscure songs? The 'classic rock' stations could take a lesson or two from the mall music people. Brett ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:45:29 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: Re: Music... (NJC) On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Catherine McKay wrote: > On the other hand, when you start changing "history" to "herstory" and > spelling women as wymyn (which I like to pronounce "why mine?" or wimmin, > that is just plain silly. I don't use either spelling/pronunciation regularly, but why is that silly? Those spellings (especially "herstory" -- I think that's a great word) make you think about how sexism is institutionalized in our (English) language (not necessarily only in regard to those specific words, but in general) -- and you might say that sexism starts in thought before it is expressed in language, but language plays a big role in shaping that thought (by creating a framework for perceiving the world) -- and what's so silly about that? - --David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:54:28 EST From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Travis record Joni again Don't know whether this has been mentioned already, but the Scottish band, Travis have recorded "River" and put it on the CD single "Turn". This follows their inclusion of "Urge for Going" on their previous single. Their version of "River" has a Joni type piano accompaniment and is unexceptional but should sell well following the success of "Why does it Always Rain on Me" Today, I picked up a copy of Paul Barrera's book "Joni Mitchell Paved Paradise".So far, I've only had a chance to read the introduction but I don't like his style much. He's very critical of Joni's attitude to the media and to people who analyse her lyrics, but I'm not going to make a judgement on the book until I've read it. One thing though, Mr Barrera obviously doesn't subscribe to the JMDL - talking about "My Best to You" he says "The Sons of the Pioneers recorded a song of the same name years ago, I cannot confirm or deny if it was the same song"! Regards Jacky ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:34:50 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Music... (NJC) Okay so i can be a bit slow on the uptake but till i read davids response to catherine I didn't understand the history/herstory thing. Now it is so obvious I can't believe I missed it all these years. HIS Story or HER Story!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:36:01 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Music... (NJC) PS Ourstory would be better than history or herstory. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:45:21 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Firesign NJC Bozos and Bozoettes- FYO there is a new Firesign album out on Rhino-all new material- called "Boom dot Bust" I haven't yet heard it. Also they put one out last year (also on Rhino) called "Give Me Immortality or Give Me Death" about a "Radio Now"'s millenium broadcast. Weirdly Cool. Let's eat! RR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:08:07 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Music... (NJC) Absolutely should be PERSONstory. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:36:56 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: NJC: US Xmas vs. Kiwi Xmas - very, very, very long >Helen, this made me howl!! Thank you for taking us on a hilarious journey >through Christmas in New Zealand. > >I think you, Don, Evian and Catherine have to start doing lunch and taking >script meetings as soon as possible. Can I be you guys' agent? > >Hollywood Kakki I am SO far behind on reading my e-mails that I've kept Helen's e-mail in my "read" box for "further action whenever..." I truly enjoyed this - I would put it right up there with Dylan Thomas's "A Child's Christmas in Wales." Helen, I really think you should expand on it - I also see it as a great short flick - maybe an animated one. Kakki, I've never met you - but I trust you!!! Yes!!! You can be my agent! > > Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:18:01 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: Music... (NJC) MDESTE1 and all, Are you all serious about changing the word "history" to something else? Is this for real? Although I think you raise some interesting points about the inherent sexism behind words such as "mankind," and "history" (from the Greek, "a learned man"), I think that trying to cleanse the language in the name of political correctness would be atrocious. Political correctness is the antithesis of creativity, art and literature! Perhaps I'm old fashioned, but I abhor the use of "actor" for both actors and actresses. What's wrong with recognizing a male actor or a female actress, or a policeman and policewoman? It's not sexist -- it recognizes women as well as men. And "to each his own" and other general expressions that use the male singular term to include all people sounds all right to me, too. It's concise and it covers both men and mixed genders without excluding anyone. Sweeping our language because of some minor "sexist" construction is ridiculous. It shouldn't make a difference as long as the statement can be understood. I do a lot of musical direction for churches, and one of the denominations recently modernized its hymnal, removing every single reference to the old "sexist" way of using the language. The results are abominable. There is no poetry left in the great old standards, and the new ones sound indecisive and weak. To me, anyone who regards the general statement "Peace on earth, goodwill toward men" as sexist has some deeper issues that need examining. Someone wishes you goodwill and you reject it because it's not worded the way you would prefer??? What next? Removing the feminine/masculine qualities from other languages, such as French and Spanish? Removing any reference to any religion, race, creed or background from every single word? Sorry, we can't call it a Japanese maple any more, and the norwester winds have to be renamed so as not to insult the east and south. Sorry, boys and girls, you are all now "small persons" because we're not allowed to recognize a difference... Languages evolve over time -- they grow rich as they pass through culture and era, retaining a little from each. The beauty of English is in its diversity and its specificity. Why clutter it up with meaningless, overregulated junk like "womyn" and "ourstory." I would prefer to go down in HIStory thinking that mankind has something better to do with its time. Off the soapbox, Harper Lou (who works as a writer and hates what political correctness has done to grammar and spelling) - -----Original Message----- From: MDESTE1@aol.com [mailto:MDESTE1@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 4:08 PM To: catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Music... (NJC) Absolutely should be PERSONstory. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:39:02 -0500 From: Linda Worster Subject: Re: Music... (NJC) At 08:36 PM 11/10/1999 +0000, catman wrote: >PS Ourstory would be better than history or herstory. > > > good one, Colin! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:41:18 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni in the Malls - "Conversation" LOTC In a message dated 11/10/99 1:37:09 PM US Central Standard Time, codeb@duncanmccachen.com writes: << I wonder why they play somewhat more obscure songs? The 'classic rock' stations could take a lesson or two from the mall music people. >> True, Brett...I think the people that select this music (is it Jenaya here that does that?) sneak in some personal faves that they know fit the format, adult easy-listening, whatever...I remember how great it was in the days of AOR (album-oriented radio) when the FM stations would play anything they wanted off a new release and you really got a feel for the record as a whole. I used to file away mentally songs that I liked, and as soon as I heard a couple I liked from the same release, it was off to Schoolkid's Records for me! Bob NP: Bruce C.,"Down to the Delta" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:24:00 -0500 (EST) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: digest help needed (NJC) Having some e-mail trouble with WebTV. I just got digest 505 today, but the last one I got was 501. Could someone fwd to me 502-504. Don't want to miss any Joni touring info. thanks, gdave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:28:52 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni in the Malls - "Conversation" LOTC Brett asked: >Does anyone even know anyone not on the list who has ever heard of >"Conversation"? Did it ever get radio play? Obviously Ladies of the Canyon >sold more than 600 copies, so lots of people would have heard it - but. . . I clearly (and happily) recall both "Conversation" and "Morning Morgantown" being played regularly on radio in L.A. when LOTC came out along with "Woodstock", BYT and the "Ladies" title song. My musical friends and I back then sang and played the songs on guitar constantly, even though none of us had the album or songbook. So we must have learned them from listening to the radio and each other. Funny - I don't recall "Circle Game" being played much, though. > I wonder why they play somewhat more obscure songs? The 'classic rock' > stations could take a lesson or two from the mall music people. After all this time on the list, I *finally* can join the ranks of those who have heard Joni played in the market ;-) Last Sunday I was in Trader Joe's in West L.A. and heard "Chinese Cafe" being played on a great sounding, "real" stereo system. What was even better was that several of the shoppers were singing right along like it was the most natural thing in the world to do! Kakk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 23:53:35 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Music... (NJC) Speaking for myself, I was being light hearted and I think marcel was too. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:00:01 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Joni's Jazz Well call me a wet blanket, but I've been hugely disappointed by most of what I've heard up to now (I've got as far as A Strange Boy). Mostly it's the singing that just doesn't hit the spot. Toshi Reagon is shouting by the end of Trouble Child, Christina Wheeler seems out of her depth, Eric Anderson is, I'm sorry to say, awful; PM Dawn on I's A Muggin' got on my nerves and Joy Askew over-emotes and seems to miss the point completely. Duncan Sheik is okay on Court & Spark, Chaka is touching on wonderful on Hissing, though shaky on Don't Interrupt the Sorrow. I may be biased, but I was expecting the worst of Jane Siberry's performances from what had been posted previously, and actually I think they're pretty good: she seems to "get" the songs, doesn't mess around with them too much and doesn't sound like she's straining, which most of the others are. Erin Hamilton certainly sounds like she's got the chops needed, and the highlight for me is John Kelly - this man really can sing. Ah well, can't please all of the people all of the time... Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:00:03 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: NJC Gigs of the Year NJC - (but Sib content!) Jane Siberry played two shows in London, Monday 8th and Tuesday 9th, and they were spectacularly beautiful. She was playing solo, with very occasional backing tapes, but mostly just accompanying herself on guitar or piano. She did a few spoken word pieces, which were full of arresting imagery, poetic structure and sly, wry humour. She sang Love Is Everything and made my day. She sang In My Dream and made half the audience cry. She invited people up on stage to hold down two notes on the keyboard for four minutes. She played mysterious and exquisite songs like Begat Begat, When Last I was A Fisherman and At The Beginning Of Time. She played bittersweet, funny songs like Goodbye Sweet Pumpkinhead. She sang like an angel and radiated warmth and will o' the wisp intelligence, imposssible to pin down. Yes, Jane is a one-off, a true original and a genius. She has her own record company, as you may know. She sells merchandise, like a lot of artistes do. But who else sells muslin bunnies? And magnetic screwdrivers?!! I must also add that on the first date she wore the most fabulous pair of trousers I've ever seen. Lord love her, I know I do. The Joni list was also represented by Rob Jordan, so with a bit luck we'll get his thoughts too. They may even make sense. Much Love, Joni and Sib to you all! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:00:00 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: language (NJC) In a message dated 10/11/99 19:51:34 GMT Standard Time, David.Wright@oberlin.edu writes: << > On the other hand, when you start changing "history" to "herstory" and > spelling women as wymyn (which I like to pronounce "why mine?" or wimmin, > that is just plain silly. I don't use either spelling/pronunciation regularly, but why is that silly? Those spellings (especially "herstory" -- I think that's a great word) make you think about how sexism is institutionalized in our (English) language (not necessarily only in regard to those specific words, but in general) -- and you might say that sexism starts in thought before it is expressed in language, but language plays a big role in shaping that thought (by creating a framework for perceiving the world) -- and what's so silly about that? >> I'm with Catherine on this one. For a start, the word history is not a contraction of "his story" (yes I know that may be stating the obvious, but sometimes I wonder). If pronounced properly it doesn't even sound like it. To change it to "herstory" seems to me like futile tampering with language when there are far more pressing issues to be concerning ourselves with. To change any compound word with the word "black" in it is equally facile. I have (only once or twice, but I swear it's happened) been pulled up for requesting "black coffee"! Articulacy fails me at points like these: not only is that just plain crazy, but it's not even logical. The supposition of the objector would seem to be that there is an intention to put a negative slant simply by the use of the word black; not to mention forgetting that black is, actually, a colour, just like blue, red, indigo, magenta, burnt siena and frou-frou-foxes-in-the-midsummer-fires (OK, that last one isn't a real colour, but you get the picture). I can see that the picture becomes slightly less straightforward when it comes to uses which do have a negative connotation, like "it was a black day for us all", but I'm still not convinced. I honestly don't know whether these terms are offensive to black people. Can anyone on the list enlighten us? I will ask a few friends and colleagues and see what they say. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 00:01:25 +0000 From: catman Subject: Dog gone it NJC It has been a really boring day for me. Since 8.30am Wallis has been shivering and shaking and panting and vomiting and scratching up and still no bloody puppies. So of course this is going to be an all nighter. okay, okay, I know it is far worse for her than for me. You women out there: if you went thru this more than once, just what were you thinking? Does giving birth make you stupid or give you amnesia? I tell you i would have had myself speyed at the earliest opportunity had I been a woman. No offense meant and hopefully none will be taken from this post. - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:20:46 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: RE: Music... (NJC) Louis Lynch wrote: > Are you all serious about changing the word "history" to something else? Well, I'm not so sure that Marcel was serious (if you don't mind my saying so, Marcel), but I am -- not necessarily about *changing* the word (as you state), or "cleansing" it from the language, but about having *both* words in our language (surely there's room?), and taking the issues they raise seriously. > And "to each his own" and other general expressions that use the male > singular term to include all people sounds all right to me, too. It's > concise and it covers both men and mixed genders without excluding anyone. A lot of people would like to think so, I'm sure, but I strongly disagree that it works that way. The idea behind the use of "he/his" to refer to the kind of abstract ideal "everyperson" is that maleness is somehow universal and transcends all bounds of gender, while femaleness is not and does not. > Sweeping our language because of some minor "sexist" construction is > ridiculous. It shouldn't make a difference as long as the statement can be > understood. Understanding is one thing. Language is another. Language isn't just transparent. > ...and the norwester winds have to be renamed so as > not to insult the east and south. That's a very specious "example." > The beauty of English is in its > diversity and its specificity. Why clutter it up with meaningless, > overregulated junk like "womyn" and "ourstory." Wait, wait: the beauty of English is in its "diversity," but that diversity only extends to the word "history" and "women" and not to "herstory/ourstory" and "womyn"? The word "history" is diverse while "ourstory" is meaningless junk? Says who? And isn't that a little contradictory? And I strongly disagree that it's meaningless junk. The way that "history" is used says, on its surface (regardless of its etymology), that "*his* story" is *everybody*'s story ("ourstory," as Colin says). Well, it's not. Mightn't some of us have stories that differ from "his story"? Especially when certain groups and the roles they have played in *all* of our stories have been left completely out of "history"/"his story"? When I have a little more time, I'm going to write about why "political correctness" is *not* the antithesis of art, literature, and creativity (or rather why PC as the antithesis of art etc. is based on a very irresponsible construction of "art"). I'm sure you all can't wait. - --David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 01:54:29 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Music... (NJC) > Mightn't some of us have stories that differ from "his story"? > Especially when certain groups and the roles they have played in *all* of > our stories have been left completely out of "history"/"his story"? History entirely depends on who has the power to have their interpretation of reality supercede others. Not so lighthearted-I think what you wrote made sense and would like to read more. > > > When I have a little more time, I'm going to write about why "political > correctness" is *not* the antithesis of art, literature, and creativity > (or rather why PC as the antithesis of art etc. is based on a very > irresponsible construction of "art"). I'm sure you all can't wait. > > --David - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:17:57 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Music... (NJC) Harper Lou wrote: > I do a lot of musical direction for churches, and one of the denominations > recently modernized its hymnal, removing every single reference to the old > "sexist" way of using the language. The results are abominable. There is > no poetry left in the great old standards, and the new ones sound indecisive > and weak. Languages evolve over time -- they grow rich as they pass through culture > and era, retaining a little from each. The beauty of English is in its > diversity and its specificity. Why clutter it up with meaningless, > overregulated junk like "womyn" and "ourstory." I agree that it gets carried to ridiculous lengths. It's one thing to perceive certain words as oppressive to various segments of humanity (oops, there's another word with "man" in it) but isn't the policing of language just another form of oppression? And why go back and "cleanse" hymms that were written hundreds of years ago? Wouldn't it be more creative and proactive to write entirely new hymms? I think Lou makes many good points. What if down the road in ourstory, Joni's songs were rewritten to fit the new "paradigm"? Off the top of my head - I am a womyn of heart and mind With time on my hands No biological person I have borne to nurture You come to me like a still growing person And I give you my critical assessment and my positive encouragement You think I'm like you mother, or another person with whom you have been intimate, or your sister or a person you have idealized Or just another still growing person When love causes me to not be actualizing healthy personhood After the enjoyable feelings when you are more grounded Negotiate mutual agreements favorable to you Execute the necessary documentation Accept your commendations Copulate with persons with whom you have not yet achieved a healthy and sustaining bond Does that not leave you with a sense of not acheiving your greatness potential? I think more people than not would find this to be a complete ruinization of Joni's song, sucking all the heart and soul and poetry out of it, even while they found it amusing. Many who have heard "revised" hymms feel the same way. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:24:45 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni's Jazz Azeem expounded: > Well call me a wet blanket, but I've been hugely disappointed by most of what > I've heard up to now (I've got as far as A Strange Boy). Mostly it's the > singing that just doesn't hit the spot. Toshi Reagon is shouting by the end > of Trouble Child, Christina Wheeler seems out of her depth, Eric Anderson is, > I'm sorry to say, awful; PM Dawn on I's A Muggin' got on my nerves and Joy > Askew over-emotes and seems to miss the point completely. Duncan Sheik is > okay on Court & Spark, Chaka is touching on wonderful on Hissing, though > shaky on Don't Interrupt the Sorrow. I may be biased, but I was expecting > the worst of Jane Siberry's performances from what had been posted > previously, and actually I think they're pretty good: she seems to "get" the > songs, doesn't mess around with them too much and doesn't sound like she's > straining, which most of the others are. Erin Hamilton certainly sounds like > she's got the chops needed, and the highlight for me is John Kelly - this man > really can sing. And I have to say that I agree with most of what Azeem wrote here. I do have to disagree with his assessment of Joy Askew, however. I thought she was great and I'm very intrigued with her. I want to hear more of her. Also, not being at all familiar with Jane Siberry, I have to say I wasn't especially impressed with her although I don't think she was as awful as some other people have said. Chaka is a wonderful singer but I didn't especially like what she did during this concert. It grates on me when singers slur over the lyrics, especially great lyrics, like *Joni's* certainly are. John Kelly's sweet voice & sincere, heartfelt delivery was like a breath of fresh air. He certainly held his own with the rest of this group and was much better than quite a few of them, imo. Erin Hamilton was ok, I guess although I can't really remember that much of her performance. And most of the rest of the singing was pretty much forgettable, too, imo. The notable exception was Hendricks & Ross. I think they pretty much mopped up the stage with all the other singers at this gig. And lucky me! I'm going to see them tomorrow night at Jazz Alley! WOOHOO! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:54:02 EST From: Drewdix@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC: Thanksgiving rev. yep, well I've received a reality check from a couple of you, to basically say "relax", and I appreciate that. But I just want to be very careful about slandering - anything. - --DD ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 00:57:22 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: language (NJC) Azeem in London wrote: > I'm with Catherine on this one. For a start, the word history is not a > contraction of "his story" > To change any compound word with the word "black" in it is equally facile. I > have (only once or twice, but I swear it's happened) been pulled up for > requesting "black coffee"! the word "herstory" is one of the most ludicrous terms ever coined. to make matters worse, it ridicules the struggle of feminists by giving arguments to those that dismiss the whole feminist movement as a mere fight over names. spelling "women" "wymyn" or whatever is another crass mistake. the etymology of "woman" is "wife of human being" not "wife of man" as the perpetrators of this linguistic joke seem to believe. therefore, if what bothers some people is the "wife of" part of the word, the only solution would be to create a new word. "man" would be a very good candidate since it means "human being". we are all men, linguistically speaking. on the other hand, i think that form a purely objective point of view to call black people "black" is wrong because black people are not "black", just as white people are not "white". what color are we? i don't know what color i am. sometimes i'm "tan", sometimes I'm "yellowish-green", sometimes I'm "flesh-colored". i also find african-american extremely discriminating. why should one exercise such precision when one never says "italian-american" to refer to giuliani or "english-ukrainian-canadian" to refer to robert holliston or "japanese-japanese" to talk about the emperor of japan. it is also possible that the word black has acquired a meaning other than "dark-skinned". it may have become a signifier devoid of negative connotations. "ella fitzgerald was black", may be a totally denotative statement, imprecise inasmuch as nobody is actually BLACK, but adequate to denote ella's ethnicity or appearance. to say that someone's hair is black is also inaccurate since we cannot be sure that the hair is in fact black or maybe very dark blue or brown. why should this latter descriptive use of black be neutral whereas using the word black to refer to people constitutes an insult? another example of how trying to precise one's terms can lead to further confusion is the use of "native american" to refer those that were once called "indians". i agree that "indian" is inadequate: a cree woman is not from india. but hillary clinton is so native an american as cherokee louise. still, hillary is an plain american and louise a native american. slurs and pc denominations: two faces of the same coin. wallyk ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #506 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! 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