From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #492 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, November 2 1999 Volume 04 : Number 492 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Dreaming of Real Freedom [Julian51469@aol.com] Re: Urge for going (guitar chords) ["P. Henry" ] Re: "racial slurs" ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Eric Anderson ["P. Henry" ] Tina Turner (was Appalling Critic NJC) [Jamie Zubairi ] Re: Racial Slurs [catman ] Re: "racial slurs" njc [catman ] Re: Racial Slurs (long) NJC [catman ] Re: "racial slurs" (NJC now) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Julian's Joni's Jazz #3 [Julian51469@aol.com] Fwd: international action NJC [Ginamu@aol.com] Grace.... [Julian51469@aol.com] Re: Urge for going - an enigma ["Alan Larson" ] RE: Urge for going (guitar chords) - [very long] [Anne Sandstrom ] Re: Urge for going - an enigma [Susan McNamara ] RE: Eric Anderson [Anne Sandstrom ] Re: feeling 'connected' (NJC) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Irish Philip (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] Re: Urge for going (guitar chords) [Howard Wright ] Joni's guitar transcriptions [Les Irvin ] Re: Brian Wilson (LONG) - NJC ["Catherine McKay" ] Flight 990 Media coverage ... (way NJC) [Don Rowe ] Pierre Bensusan (NJC) ["Alan Larson" ] Re: Racial Slurs (long) NJC ["Catherine McKay" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 03:02:34 EST From: Julian51469@aol.com Subject: Dreaming of Real Freedom Emily, This is so cool! First off, have you ever heard of "dreaming for others"? and.. Secondly, this all dovetails into the whole "tarbaby - great white wonder" thing... I've already said my peace/piece on the issue but you have condensed my whole argument into a beautiful surrealistic suprise birthday gift of a subconscience awakening - that is: your dream is IT! and... Thirdly, art is an advertisement for peace (Yoko Ono) because it offends the senses and demands emotion, thought, and movement of spirit (me). Thanks Julian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 00:43:11 -0800 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Urge for going (guitar chords) Mark wrote: >I personally did not try them because I know that the one transcribed in the Hits songbook (and therefore, the song that was put on Hits) is correct...> *mark, how do you know this? and, for that matter, what would it hurt to just give it a try? do you really think I'm lying to you? what would I have to gain? >We have heard Joni tune up to standard tuning (EADGBe - can we at least agree that THAT is standard tuning!?!? :-D) when she played this song live.> *perhaps I am at fault for not being real good at communicating... (I said I am lousy at tabs... can't even read them, much less write them) to clarify, what I am referring to by using the term 'drop D' is DADGBE... so that only the lower E is tuned down to D. if, say, she were in DGDGBD tuning on the previous song and then tuned up to this, she would tune the first five strings to standard and leave the 6th string untouched as it would already be tuned to D. is it at all possible that this could be what you saw? >I know many people have noted that the transcriptions in the Hits and Misses songbooks are incorrect in many places...> *now this really mystifies me... how can you know this and defend it as 'correct' at the same time??? >By the way, Pat, how did you get the chords that you posted here? If you haven't played guitar in 25 years, then what makes you say that Howard and the Hits transcription are wrong?> *again, I'm totally mystified! to answer your question, 'how I got the chords I posted here' was sitting about 3ft from Joni, watching her fingers listening to her instructions and imitating what she showed me herself, with her intentionally leading me through each chord change, stopping to let me try them and telling me if I got it right. that's 'how I got them'! as far as how I am so sure about this after 25yrs, as I said, my hands remember... Pat writes again: (actually it was howard who wrote:) > "As I remember, the tuning is given as standard, and the book's version for this song looked and sounded fine to me." > (and *then* 'pat writes':) >as I have stated emphatically more than once, this song was not written in standard tuning but with a drop D. I'm not lying.> and then you wrote: >I may have to listen to the song again to hear that drop D> *good idea... I'm not sure but I believe Joni also personally taught it to Tom Rush also and, if I remember correctly, on close listen, one can hear the drop/slack D clearly on his recording... also I can hear it on Joni's recording as well. the logic of this statement that 'that's how it is in the songbook' totally escapes me. *most* of Joni's compositions are erroneously printed in songbooks with chords written in standard tunings! however, I must be honest here and admit that, on going back and listening a little more closely myself after I wrote that post to howard, it does sound like there are other chords in there... on the other hand this could be attributed to Joni's rather intricate picking. as you mentioned, we know that this song was originally recorded for Blue back in '71 and I find it unlikely that it was change much since '68 when I last heard her do it. (exactly as I've described, btw) >-did we come to the conclusion that there is still a capo on the third fret? In that case, it would be an F you would hear.> *it could be that she used a capo back then but I never did. as any guitarist knows, a capo merely allows one to play open chord 'shapes'(?) in a different position, usually to accommodate vocal range. I just know that the chords I posted are the ones she taught me, and, if need be, could be played capoed on the 8th fret. and... >"pat's chords are no doubt fine for playing the version of Urge that Joni showed him, but to play the *recorded* version, you need different chords. The ones from the Hits songbook or the ones on the jmdl site are fine for this."> >I'm sorry howard, but this makes absolutely no sense at all. it seems that, in a very carefully worded way, you are attempting to cast doubt upon the authenticity of my post. if so, you're just gonna shoot yourself in the foot and all I can say is the proof is in the pudding. *play it* and see! the way she wrote it is the way she taught it to me and it's the same way she plays it on the '*recorded*' version! if you recall I originally made my post in response to listers who'd told me that they didn't play this song because the chords they had for it didn't sound right... so I posted the right ones. I may not be able to communicate 'chord shapes' like you and others can but I can play this song exactly as it was written. isn't that what you want?> >Howard has been transcribing songs for years now, and in my opinion his works are extremely correct. I think we should note again that Joni has played songs differently from time to time, and in the case of UFG, both the alternate Blue and Hits have the same version.> *ok, mark... I give! I have to admit that you make a good point regarding Joni changing songs at times and her capacity for variety and, in fact, that it's certainly *possible* that the song was changed and I can't deny that. however I think you could both make your points without inferring that I am lying... unless that *is* your point. I know I am blunt and that some find my style irritating but this saddens me because, believe it or not, I have the highest respect for both howard and yourself and your considerable contributions to JMDL and I hope you will also consider that that's all I'm trying to do as well... contribute. that said, the fact, which you've conceded is that some fairly accomplished players of Joni's music have been unable to get a good playing of this rather simple melody by utilizing the chords as they have been transcribed... fact two is that 32yrs ago in the back room of a small club in Michigan, Joni took her time to teach me exactly how to play what she always referred to as her personal favorite song and those are the exact chords I posted and I know they work. I trust that your first concern is the people on this list and presenting quality material for them to share and so I shall leave it up to you and howard and the rest of the guitar tab authorities to determine what to do about these facts, but I don't wish to argue the point further. I have done my best to share what I was given... that's all I can do. it amazes me but it certainly seems that you do not want what I have to offer at all. oh well, guess I should have just kept my mouth shut. pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 22:18:51 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: "racial slurs" Bob wrote: >To repeat a pet peeve, it's why I hate to hear "niggaz" used so commonly on >rap records...it becomes acceptable with usage, like we all seem to agree, >racism is learned, and what better way to learn language than to hear it >repeatedly... I've been following this thread with interest, and couldn't resist adding my two cents worth ;o) It's brought to mind a movie I saw ages ago - one of those "Back to the Future" type movies - I can't remember exactly which movie it was but it had someone going back in time 30 years (in the US) to the 50's from the 80's. This person called an African-American "black" and was hassled for it because it was so offensive, and was told to say "negro". They replied "You'll be calling yourself "black" in 30 years - and "negro" will be offensive!" My point (finally) is that certain terms change in meaning and inference over time, but it's the delivery or context that matters. Vince said: "There is a world of difference between two African-Americans using the term "nigger" with each other and a white person saying it to a black person." I agree in part. One of my best friends is part-Maori. I call him "boonga", and he calls me "white trash". It's not disrespectful, it's not hurtful, it's said totally in jest, between two people who respect each other immensely. I would never dream of saying something like this to anyone else, and I would never say it (to my friend) in a way that would be hurtful. And two African-American's can still use the term "nigger" with each other in a derogatory, and nasty way - I've seen it on Jerry Springer! Like I said, it's all in the delivery. Helen _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 01:41:20 -0800 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Eric Anderson steve wrote: >Two of his songs, Thirsty Boots and Violets of Dawn, are true classics> Thirsty Boots was one of my favorites from the first hearing... reminded me of a Tom Paxton style. I learned it through an issue of Sing Out! during the time when they used to include a small ep pull-out recording by the composers of the featured sheet music in that issue. I performed it in my sets from then on. pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:08:18 -0000 From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: Tina Turner (was Appalling Critic NJC) We've just had a brill Hallowe'en weekend here in UK and I discovered that I do a perfect Tina Turner rendition of 'Private Dancer' to the great amusement of my friends. I couldn't decide what to go as (it was meant to be dead rockstars + the way they died - a tad tasteless but fun) and I was going to be Jimi Hendricks but it wasn't working with the hair. So I turned out to be Cheech Marin (Or is it Chong? I dunno, the more Hispanic lookin fella). Well, I was doing my friends makeup in his bedroom with all the rest of his flatmates in line for me to do theirs and it just reminded me of 'you just look at their faces, and you don't ask thier names...) and I started singing that whole thing to great amusement. I have the legs for Ms Turner, I just needed the wig. It' might find it's way into a cabaret peice, called Tina Turnups or something. Much Joni Jamie Zubairi Tina Turner-Twenty Four Seven . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:40:31 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: "racial slurs" Apart from food, i have no idea what 'cracker' means. Oh, here it is used to descibe something good'oh he she it is a cracker'. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:40:41 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Racial Slurs > > > I'd suggest that if Joni believed that (that she knows what > African Americans feel), she was wrong, and it's arrogant of her to claim > that sort of community with them. exactly what i thought. We can only imagine being in someone's shoes. we can never actually wear them. > > > --David - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:41:01 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: "racial slurs" njc > > > They hurt. But never once, for one second, for one iota, did I fear for my > life. Did I ever think that I would not be allowed to go forth with my life > because of my skin color. Amazingly, one gets used to it. one learns to avoid places and people and situations and lawys watch your back. It has always baffled me, tho I have read of reasons, why one group of people who are treated like shit, dish out this same treatment to another group. > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:41:06 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Racial Slurs (long) NJC I am glad you didn't just sit there and take this. last night, i had a similar experience, never mind the deatils. It got very unconfortable. but I surprised my self and did what thought I could only do in writing. I made my feelings known, loud and clear! It was very liberating. The person who had been downright offensive was left speechless and in fact left the house. The hostess was supportive of me and was surprised at this persons words to say the least. When i had said my piece, which i had done firmly, not rudely, and calmly, I found I was trembling and my knees were knocking! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 07:20:52 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: "racial slurs" (NJC now) In a message dated 11/1/99 10:54:02 PM US Central Standard Time, revrvl@pathwaynet.com writes: << Bob, my best to you. I hope I have said what I wanted to say with some coherance. I offfer my thoughts not because I have any wisdom, but because of my own life experience, and because I have great respect and affection for you and I take your question as an honest one, for you are a forthright and good person. >> Vince, your writing was excellent, and indeed the reason we can discuss such thorny topics as this without resorting to name-calling and flames (like I have seen on EVERY OTHER LIST I've subscribed to...thanks for the depth of your thoughts. And although I can APPRECIATE your point, I don't think I will ever AGREE with it... Bob NP: The Alarm, "68 Guns" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 07:58:42 EST From: Julian51469@aol.com Subject: Julian's Joni's Jazz #3 Julian’s Joni’s Jazz Part Three ...and then Chaka Khan graces the stage and addresses Joni directly, "See how many people love you." She then lets us in on the fact that Joni is her mentor ("Oh wow." says someone) and that "she tells girls who think they’re singers to go and get a Joni Mitchell record, say Hejira, harmonize with that sucker." Well, I’m then led into a funked-up take on "Don’t Interrupt the Sorrow," one of my all time favorite Joni tunes. I smile, and the sun smiles back at me. First the horns nail the opening two notes, then Vernon Reid takes me up and down a tight staircase of a guitar scale, the organ peals out of the starting gate, and then the band is off and running. Her royal highness, Ms. Khan, seems to channel the spirit of Anima with her growls, croons, wails and proclamations. I can hear Aretha coming through the vibes, as well...demanding respect. The band turns into Chaka’s chariot, and her high notes are spears and arrows of absolute truth and wisdom. She breaks it all down to "Queen of queens" repeated over and over ‘till it all fades into the horizon. I’m left with perma-grin and start giggling when I hear the master of ceremonies say very quickly, "Chakakhan, Chakakhan....I’ve waited all my life to say it like that. Chakakhan." After a good long giggle I sang to myself, "I feel for you ‘coz I think I love you..." At this point in the show the soft spoken Eric Anderson greets the crowd. He tells us that he has a dilemma with the song that he’s about to sing. Should it be: "...the pleasure I’m gonna have watching your hairline recede my vain darling"....or should it be, "...watching my hairline recede my vain darling." I chuckle a little at the problems facing the baby boomer generation these days (remember when it was real issues?). From the crowd around me I hear someone singing the line in a clear sweet voice as if a twenty-something Joni doppleganger had appeared out of nowhere. There is an appreciative applause for this ghost-of-Joni-past and then Eric gets on with the gig at hand. The band kicks in with a perfect ‘74 swing in to "Just Like This Train." Somehow the weather of the ages had smoothed out Eric Anderson’s voice. At first I was yearning to hear a more melodious vocal styling - something more along the lines of what I’m used to hear ing since the band had such and L.A. Express feel going on, but I soon got used to a simpler male voice. The whole tune took on a dusty, wandering, road weary, lazy cowboy feel. Christina and Sheryl swooped through with their angelic harmonies to lift this sunburnt goucho in his saddle. I found myself riding off into yet another sunset. Joy Askew then introduces Joe Jackson. Whoah doggies! As Mr. Jackson caresses the ivories, my ears are reminded of skating away on rivers, through shades of blue, across paprika plains. He invokes the long gone days of Joni at her piano that nowadays is too big and overwhelming for her. Joy’s voice cuts through my smoke and rose mirrors with the sharp lines of "Down to You." I catch myself weeping as the yearning and passion of her voice pull at my heartstrings. I turn to look in the mirrored window of a skyscraper to look at my reflection. Behind me, across the street, a beggar is shaking his Styrofoam cup for change, and then a stretch limousine pulls up to next to me and blocks my view and the song then transforms into "A Case of You." The crowd pulls me out of my feelings of pity and disgust with their applause for what is one of my all time favorite songs by anyone. The quiet whispers of a thousand voices in the crowd join Joy in singing this unofficial anthem to love and Canada (where I had just come from spending my honeymoon, no less). Ms. Askew’s voice then spirals and pirouettes into the stratosphere on the last note of "you" that sends shivers throughout my whole body. Joe then takes us back into the haunting realms of "Down to You." When the last notes have subsided ("Oh wow." says some stunned someone) I have to pull off the headphones and compose myself. Joe and Joy’s bitterswee dance is still throbbing in my head and heart. I too say my much needed, "Wow!", and then the perma-grin kicks back in and the headphones go back on. (This edition is brought to you by Jerry Notaro and his computa' wizardry...thanks again.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:14:45 EST From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Fwd: international action NJC - --part1_0.6bc893a0.25503dc5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi List! I don't usually do this sort of forwarding but this cause deserves particular attention, I think. Thanks for your patience, Gina - --part1_0.6bc893a0.25503dc5_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zc03.mx.aol.com (rly-zc03.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.3]) by air-zc05.mail.aol.com (v62.15) with ESMTP; Mon, 01 Nov 1999 14:58:30 -0500 Received: from www2.ufsia.ac.be ([146.175.129.1]) by rly-zc03.mx.aol.com (v62.10) with ESMTP; Mon, 01 Nov 1999 14:58:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www2.ufsia.ac.be (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA25366 for secret-world-list; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:52:35 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: www2.ufsia.ac.be: majordom set sender to owner-secret-world@www2.ufsia.ac.be using -f Received: from Moebius.baked.net (moebius.baked.net [209.48.190.36]) by www2.ufsia.ac.be (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA25363 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:52:33 +0100 Received: from localhost (daking@localhost) by Moebius.baked.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02654 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:51:58 -0500 Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:51:58 -0500 (EST) From: Dan King To: secret-world@ufsia.ac.be Subject: international action Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-secret-world@www2.ufsia.ac.be Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey People, We got the word out about our unhappiness regarding the imprisonment of the Drapchi 12 with over 1400 people contacting the Chinese Embassy in the United States. Lets go up one level, shall we? We can now hit up the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and let those in charge of foreign relations know we are not happy with the nuns continued imprisonment. If everyone who glimpsed the previous email action took part we should have had over 10,000 participants. So please do not let this opportunity pass you by, you can affect change with the simple use of your computer. We find ourselves many times hoping for change and wishing for change well here comes our opportunity to stand up for change. I ask you to take a moment out of your day and send the below message to the two emails indicated below and to your friends and colleagues who may also share a concern or desire to help. One of the lyrics these nuns have been given extra sentences is: "No matter how hard we are beaten, Our linked arms cannot be separated... The time will come when the sun will shine through the clouds." Lets bring attention to the plight of these 12 imprisoned Tibetan Buddhist nuns. You can speak out DIRECTLY to the Chinese government!! All you need to do is copy and send the below message to: To: webmaster@fmprc.gov.cn (Ministry of Foreign Affairs for the PRC) Cc: amnestyaction@yahoo.com (to get a count) Spread this far and wide. If you are taking part in this action after January 31, 2000 please contact me and I will tell you if it is still pertinent. Peace Dan King www.amnesty133.org daking@lynx.neu.edu - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TANG Jiaxuan Minister of Foreign Affairs of the People's Republic of China Waijiaobu 225 Chaoyangmenneidajie Beijingshi 100701 The People's Republic of China, Your Excellency, I would like to request the immediate and unconditional release of the following 12 Tibetan Nuns who have been imprisoned for singing songs while at Drapchi Prison. Name Age* Date 1st 2nd Total Arrested Sentence Sentence Ngawang Choezom 22 03/21/92 5 years 6 years 11years Gyaltsen Choezom 21 08/21/90 4 5 9 Gyaltsen Drolkar 19 08/21/90 4 8 12 Ngawang Sangdrol 15 06/17/92 3 6 21** Lhundrup Zangmo 23 08/21/90 4 5 9 Phuntsog Nyidron 23 10/04/89 9 8 17 Tenzin Thubten 20 08/21/90 5 9 14 Ngawang Lochoe 19 05/14/92 5 5 10 Ngawang Tsamdrol 21 05/14/92 5 5 10 Jigme Yangchen 23 10/01/90 7 5 12 Rigzin Choekyi 20 09/22/89 7 5 12 Namdrol Lhamo 28 05/12/92 6 6 12 * Age at time of first sentencing. ** Has had sentenced extended two more times since her second sentence; one increase was 8 years and that was further extended by 4 years. The twelve nuns are Prisoners of Conscience who have been imprisoned solely for the peaceful expression of their beliefs. I am also deeply concerned at reports that the nuns have been ill-treated while in prison. You have the opportunity to show the world that you respect human rights. Please do so by immediately releasing the aforementioned nuns. Finally, I request information regarding the above individuals current conditions, and any action you may already be taking to protect them and other victims of human rights violation in Tibet to be sent to Amnesty International Group 133, 251 Albany Street, Cambridge, MA, USA 02139. Thank you for your time and concern in this matter of utmost importance. Sincerely, - --part1_0.6bc893a0.25503dc5_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:25:33 EST From: Julian51469@aol.com Subject: Grace.... Hello there Vince, All I can say is that your post was increadibly moving. I saved it into my JMDL Archives. It took courage and grace to act as you did and say the things you said. Thank you. Julian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:15:43 -0800 From: "Alan Larson" Subject: Re: Urge for going - an enigma I must say, Pat, that I am confused. Considering that Joni took so many years to put UFG on a recording, and that it's not on her list for her upcoming orchestrated standards CD, HOW COULD IT HAVE "ALWAYS BEEN ONE OF HER FAVORITES"? I know it is one of mine, both lyrically and musically. And it's potential for harmony is unparalleled. JT wrote "ain't no song in this whole wide world, I can't sing some harmony..." but this song makes it easy. And I really do wish summer would hang around for just another month or two. If I could ask a favor: Does anyone have the full song lyrics with chord "shapes"? Is it on the guitar tab site? alan@isunet.net -- vaguely envious of Pat's learning of this song from Joni ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:37:56 -0500 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: RE: Urge for going (guitar chords) - [very long] OK, so if you're not into music theory or don't play guitar, you can leave the room...and press delete I played both the version on the JMDL guitar site and Pat's version both with and without JM's and TR's recordings. The version on the JMDL site is as good an approximation as one gets to what Joni plays on the recorded version. Pat's version is remarkably like Tom Rush's version. Interesting. (EXCEPT I have no idea why you'd drop the E to D - you don't need to at all!) From a previous post: <> I just happened to hear TR say the other day that she did in fact teach it to him (he was on the local radio station, promoting an upcoming concert). And, as I stated, there's no drop D on either recording. My theory? Joni may have played a version way back when that was much more like the TR version. A few corrections/comments: What Pat refers to as Amaj7 is in fact just an A (what makes the Fmaj7 a maj7 is the added E, which is, of course, the 5th of an A - so you lose the maj7. Likewise, what's written as a Gmaj7 is a G6 - with the E being the 6th of a G. (sorry I think someone else posted this earlier) <<"The chords for the recorded version (from the "Hits" CD) of the chorus are essentially: G D A and I get the urge for going ... pat wrote them as: C D Amaj7 So the version Joni showed him must have been different.">> Pat wrote<< again, I would ask... did you try these chords. if those are the chords in the Hits songbook, I wonder where they, whoever they are, got them. they're wrong, plain and simple. furthermore, if played along with the Hits CD, the chords I posted are exactly what she plays... she never changed this song.>> Pat, I don't know what you're hearing, but the chords as you wrote them don't work. They're not what either TR or JM play. How do I know? My ear - which is actually remarkably good (not bragging - there's lots of stuff I'm not good at... but I've figured out guitar pieces as difficult as Pierre Bensusan's Nice Feeling completely and accurately by ear - to know how intricate that is, ask Les I...) There's a place in the verse where Pat's version has the chords played in reverse order - instead of D C, he lists them as C D. This doesn't work. The melody note that punctuates the line is an F#. Playing a C with an F# melody doesn't work, but playing a D (since F# is the third) does. <<"There are accurate chords and tablature for the Hits Cd version of Urge available from the Hits songbook." who says they are accurate? you can go back through songbook after songbook and find gobs of Joni's songs chorded innaccurately, mostly because the publishers didn't know what to do with tunings.>> This brings me to my final point. It's not a criticism - just an observation. Joni plays and writes in 'shapes.' I'm surprised at the number of postings on the JMDL guitar site that list chords. I think of all you posters doing all that math. Why? That's not how she plays. (Sorry if I'm sounding preachy here, but I KNOW this - not from first hand experience like Pat, but just from breathing her music for so long...) To really play inside her head, you have to throw away the letters and numbers, don't think in chords or keys. Think in shapes and colors and textures. Sound weird? Well, that how she does it. It always amazed me that someone took the time to write out lead sheets and standard chords for Joni's songs, then published them, when it was like translating from one language to another one with fewer, less interesting words. Something invariably gets lost. Anne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 02:29:46 +1100 From: "Takats, Angela" Subject: feeling 'connected' (NJC) .......I've been thinking a lot about the word "connection"...and wanted to share these thoughts with you guys. I think we all crave connection so desperately, and so many of us walk around each day avoiding it, or missing out on it. It wasn't until a few weeks ago, when I was out in the middle of nowhere with my boyfriend, that this word took on new meaning to me. We were scaling these amazing rocks to get to this waterfall...we were getting close to the drop off - with only a small stream of icey water between us and the flat rock edge...keen to get right to the edge my boyfriend suggested we take off our shoes and wade across...my instant reaction was "no way" (i am SO not the dare-devil type)...but the sun was shining on us, the sky was clear and blue and I just thought, why, why not? So off came the shoes .... and the soft souls of my feet landed on the smooth warm rock face and were soon slipping and slidding over mossy rocks in an ICEY stream...the water was painfully cold, it stung and I thought I wouldn't make it across, but the feeling of the warm rocks under my feet on the other side was so wonderful...so we stood at the top of this mammoth waterfall, right at the edge and looked at the cliffs either side of us, the sound of the feirce fast water rushing and gushing around us...and we didn't have to say anything... As I wrote about this invigorating experience in my diary I was trying to think of a word to describe the way I felt...and "connected" was the only thing that seemed to fit...I felt so connected up there, to the earth, to the sky to the water, to my boyfriend, to God, to me....do u know what I mean? That icey cold water, the pain of it waking me up to all the things that really matter...releasing me from the everyday pains of work and socialising.... I know this sounds silly, but ever since then I've been really trying to keep "connecting" ... taking my shoes off at the beach to feel the wet sand inbetween my toes, stopping to smell the flowers on my daily walks, walking in the rain feeling the moisture on my face, hugging someone and holding onto them till the hug sinks in..... What a good feeling it is...to feel 'connected' Just thoughts Ange Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:32:19 -0500 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Urge for going - an enigma > >If I could ask a favor: Does anyone have the full song lyrics with chord >"shapes"? Is it on the guitar tab site? > >alan@isunet.net -- vaguely envious of Pat's learning of this song from Joni Vaguely!!! I'm sick with the GREEN MONSTER!! What a beautiful memory to have. She must have been ethereally gorgeous in those days with an energy that infected you like a potion! The Urge for Going tab is at the JMDL Guitar site at this URL: www.jmdl.com/guitar/ When you get to the site, click on the HITS album picture and Urge is the first song. In the interest of spreading the art of Joni Mitchell, I designed the Joni Mitchell Guitar Site with one mission: For guitarists to share their interpretations of Joni's craft. In my opinion, there are many different ways people enjoy playing her songs: e.g., in Joni's way, in their own way, and for beginners, the simplest way possible. We are all at varying degrees of guitar prowess and I designed the site so everyone can share and grow from learning from the master. I invite anyone with suggestions about the site to email guitar@jmdl.com We also welcome all tabs for consideration. take care, Sue ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ weekend email address: suemc16@webtv.net "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:58:14 -0500 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: RE: Eric Anderson A few years ago, I was with a bunch of other songwriters - we went to see Eric Andersen at Passim in Harvard Square. Well, we went to the Border Cafe across the street afterwards. It seemed everyone scattered, leaving only Eric, Geoff Bartley and me standing at the bar. Geoff saw someone he had to talk to, so he asked if I'd mind talking to Eric for a few minutes. (I thought 'are you kidding? this is the guy whose album cover (Blue River) I drooled over in high school!) so we talked for most of that evening and the next one (long story, I won't bore you with how I wound up back in Harvard Sq. the next night). We talked about his twin boys a lot, his life in Norway, and some sort of philosophical stuff. He drank a lot of tequila. Interesting person. (Kakki, I think he's the original Forest Gump of the music scens! 'fraid you're probably a close second :-) Anne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:54:54 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: feeling 'connected' (NJC) In a message dated Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:32:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Takats, Angela" writes: <> Absolutely, Ange! That's a pretty common experience with me whenever I get away for a hike in the mountains or spend time on the beach, away from the stuff that doesn't matter so much and in tune with the stuff that does...your post was as cool as the water you dunked your tootsies in! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:06:39 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Irish Philip (NJC) Would Philip from Ireland e-mail me off-list, please? Thanks! ######################################################### Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ (Website under construction!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:03:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Howard Wright Subject: Re: Urge for going (guitar chords) On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, P. Henry wrote: > howard, > > I am, however, somewhat confused by your comments in reference to the > "Hits CD version" and the published chords. can I ask a question? did > you try the chords I posted? of the few songs Joni taught me, I have > never seen any of them faithfully represented in any songbook. > I may not be able to articulate tab as well as you and I seriously > doubt that few can and it's true that memory fails sometimes when it > comes to cognitive facts, but I assure you, my hands remember. What your hands remember is not in dispute - my suggestion was that you were taught to play the song *one* way, and the recorded version that appears on the Hits CD is *another* way to play the song. The fact that Joni re-arranged or reinterpreted the song between showing it to you and actually recording it wouldn't be that surprising would it? I'm just trying to clarify things here - and I think the reason we are talking about different chords is that we are talking about distinctly different versions of the song. Or maybe you don't agree? If you have access to the recorded version (e.g from the Hits CD, or the sound snippet from Wally's site) maybe you can confirm for us - does this sound different to the version you were shown? I would guess so, but would like to hear your view. I didn't try the chords you posted - because I have tried the chords in the Hits songbook, and like Mark, I found them to match what I hear on the Hits version of the song. That's not to say the chords published in the songbooks are necessarily right - far from it! - but in this case, they work just fine. > if those are the > chords in the Hits songbook, I wonder where they, whoever they are, got > them. they're wrong, plain and simple. furthermore, if played along with > the Hits CD, the chords I posted are exactly what she plays... she never > changed this song. This I can't agree with. For example, in the second hald of the verse, e.g for the lines "When the sun turns traitor cold, and all the trees are shivering ...", you wrote the chords as: C D C D Listening to the clip of the recorded version from Hits, the chords are clearly D C D C. Also, in the chorus, for the lines "And I get the urge for going, when the meadow grass is turning brown ...", you wrote: C D Amaj7 C D Amaj7 (where, if I understood right, your Amaj7 would be: x07650) The recorded version is definitely: G D A G D A (with G = 320003, D = xx0232, A = x02220, with occasional variations on the A shape) If you listen to the Hits Cd or the snippet on Wally's site, I don't think there is any question of this. But this doesn't alter the fact that the chords you wrote surely were right for the version of the song Joni taught you. This is the important point (aplogies - I keep repeating myself!) - there are different versions of the song. I don't know why you say "Joni never changed the song" - are you sure? She certainly changed chords for others (e.g early versions of Little Green are different to the Blue version). > *play it* and see! the way she wrote it is the way she taught it to me > and it's the same way she plays it on the '*recorded*' version! My only real question is, are you sure the version you were taught is the same as the version on the Hits CD? Have you heard the Hits CD version? If not, head for the SOUNDS section on Wally's site - there is a snippet there. I am pretty sure the version you were shown is different to the recorded version - the chords you wrote don't match the Hits version. One other thing - was the low E string the one that Joni tuned down to D when she taught you the song? If so, in which chords did Joni use the low D string? Howard ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 11:09:18 -0700 From: Les Irvin Subject: Joni's guitar transcriptions At 07:37 AM 11/2/1999 , Anne wrote: >Joni plays and writes in 'shapes.' I'm surprised at the number >of postings on the JMDL guitar site that list chords. I think of all you >posters doing all that math. Why? That's not how she plays. ... To really >play inside >her head, you have to throw away the letters and numbers, don't think in >chords or keys. Think in shapes and colors and textures. Sound weird? Well, >that how she does it. It always amazed me that someone took the time to >write out lead sheets and standard chords for Joni's songs, then published >them, when it was like translating from one language to another one with >fewer, less interesting words. Something invariably gets lost. Anne, this is an excellent point. I remember first seeing Joni's music written out years ago and thinking that she must be this brilliant genius at writing intricate chord structures and music theory. Later, I read that Joni cannot even read music! This paradox was striking and, I think, proves your point that Joni's playing is a "different language" than what it translates to on the printed musical page. Not that there isn't a validity and a necessity to seeing it on paper - how else will most people be able to begin to learn her music? But to look at the printed music as the product of "Joni's creation" I think misses the whole point. Joni seems to create her music through a visual process much as she does a painting. I would bet that Joni finds these transcriptions of her music quite foreign and not a real part of her creation at all. Excellent point Anne! Les ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 18:31:26 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Brian Wilson (LONG) - NJC It's interesting how people are commenting on their ability or not to cry. Even though I was raised in a pretty "stiff upper lip" environment, I seem to have the opposite problem to some of you - I can cry at the drop of a hat (because I feel sorry for the hat!) Even emotional TV commercials get me going. It has been worse since I've had kids, so whether that's as a result of hormonal fluctuations gone wild, or the fears that you suddenly discover once you have kids (all those what-if-something-goes-wrongs), I don't know. I absolutely cannot read anything in the papers about bad stuff happening to children, animals or old people without the old waterworks going. I wish I could get better control over that because often, when I'm angry, I end up crying, therefore it's difficult for me to be in conflict situations with other people. The minute the tears start flowing, you automatically lose because the other party has the upper hand. Or so it seems to me - however, if someone (an adult) starts crying about something personal that they're talking to me about, I feel uncomfortable. I think my whole family was so damned reasonable and "understanding" about everything (we could forgive others' sins, but always expected more of ourselves), that we rarely fought with others (with the exception of our siblings - my sister Anne and I were at each other all the time, but as quickly as we blew up, we seemed to shrug it off, and were friends again - we're both Aries, so I think this may be why, if you believe in that horoscope stuff.) As a result, I have a really hard time dealing with anger (in myself as well as others). So frequently my own anger comes out in tears - we were taught to suppress any negative emotions, but I never could help the tear thing. I'm quite sure I would have been blubbering mightily if I were at the Brian Wilson concert. Azeem said: "That "big boys don't cry" nonsense is more harmful than many can imagine." Too true. When I was a teenager I used to babysit for a kid named Bradley. I used to call him Bratley. He was a rotten, rotten kid, the type who was always up to something. And yet I remember once, because they lived right behind us, hearing his mother yelling at him for crying, calling him a baby, and basically "Nya-nya-nya-ing" at him and I realized that probably had a great deal to do with his being such a rotten kid. I often wonder whatever became of him, but I'd be afraid to find out. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:44:55 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: Flight 990 Media coverage ... (way NJC) I don't know what I expected really -- but the media's coverage of the crash of Flight 990 has been especially appalling. Has anyone noticed how, the very instant it became clear that there would be no immediate revelation of a terrorist attack, all the news organizations, including the usually respectful NPR, switched into "human interest" mode, picking up on the personal stories of those killed. The whole thing has played like a "Guess we'll have to settle for this again" piece -- as if the tragic deaths of 215 people isn't news anymore ... unless of course, some terrorist figure is responsible. Pathetic! Don Rowe ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 12:54:33 -0800 From: "Alan Larson" Subject: Pierre Bensusan (NJC) Thanks to you and Sue, I now have a nice one-page addition of UFG in my songbook. Thank you both so much. Unfortunately, I had to rearrange the chords and words in Word, but that is no big deal. I saw Pierre at McCabe's in Santa Monica back in the winter of 78 (or was it 79?). I've always loved the lyrical quality of his music, especially his ballads like LeRoi Renard, even if I couldn't (don't!) understand the meaning of the French words. As I recall he was very personable, and unassuming, and a natural storyteller. Or maybe it was just the venue, as McCabe's is such a cozy and intimate place to hear music. I hadn't heard his name mentioned in a long time. Thanks for bringing back the memories. alan@isunet.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 19:05:22 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Racial Slurs (long) NJC Jimmy asked: "How could this seemingly intelligent man say such a horrible thing? He claimed he was not prejudice and he had lots of friends that were black and friends that were gay (just to make sure we weren't offended. HA ! ) He said he felt that he just wanted his daughter to have a *good* life, and not looked down upon from society." Along the same lines, I have a couple of stories. About 20 years ago, I worked with someone who was from Tanzania (Africa). Her origins were Indian. She said that, in her culture blacks were regarded as inferior, brown people were in the middle and whites were regarded as superior. I asked her how she could feel that way, given that she was brown - - and she said that was just the way she had been raised. I thought this was very weird. More recently, a co-worker of mine from India tells me (and I've read this as well in books by various Indian writers), that marriages are often arranged, not just on the basis of class (caste), line of work and financial situations, but on the "lightness" of one's skin as well - having dark skin is seen as a negative, whereas having light skin is considered a good thing. The novel "A suitable boy" by Vikram Seth (a very long book, but well worth it) gets into the whole situation of a family's trying to find, well, a suitable boy (!) for their daughter to marry. And, if you've ever read Anne Rice's "Feast of All Saints" (one of her non-vampire books!), she deals with the "Gens de couleur" ("People of colour") issue, where, again lightness of skin is considered desirable. People of mixed black and white race who can "pass" for white use this to their advantage to get ahead in society. It is seen as a good thing if a light-coloured girl "of colour" can find some rich white man to take her on as his mistress and set her up with a nice house so she can bring her children up in a better life-style. The fact that she's basically a prostitute is less of an issue than her getting someone to provide for her and her family, by whatever means possible. Of course, the question of her actually marrying the white guy wouldn't enter into it. Last, but not least, one of my brothers-in-law is from Mexico. He ended up in Canada, although he had originally wanted to go to the US. When he had to complete a form indicating which race he belonged to and they put him down as neither "black" nor "white", but as "other", he was quite offended. He has some Indian blood in him, but likes to think of himself as "white" and even though he feels he was discriminated against by the US immigration service, he is still prejudiced against blacks and Chinese people - just to show that, even when people have felt discrimination by others, they don't seem to notice when they're doing it themselves. I'm not sure what bothers me more - white people thinking they're "better", or non-white people actually buying into that. Yet I'm certain that if somehow we were all the same colour, or we were colour-blind, we'd find some other reason to divide ourselves into groups of desirables and undesirables. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #492 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?