From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #491 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, November 2 1999 Volume 04 : Number 491 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- NJC: Icq updat4e [Bounced Message ] Kennedy/ "Urge for Going" ["Pitassi, Mary" ] RE: "racial slurs" ["Pitassi, Mary" ] NJC The milk of human kindness NJC [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Racial Slurs (long) NJC [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Heart /Sandra/Stormy Weather/Joni (now njc) [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Brian Wilson (LONG) - NJC [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Racial Slurs (long) NJC [catman ] Re: Racial Slurs (long) NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Racial Slurs [Scott Price ] Re: Gene Shay & The Tinkers (NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: "racial slurs" [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Racial Slurs (long) NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Re: "racial slurs" ["Kakki" ] Re: Racial Slurs (long) NJC [MGVal@aol.com] Re: "racial slurs" njc [MGVal@aol.com] Re: Racial Slurs [David Wright ] Re: "racial slurs" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Racial Slurs and DJRD ["Kakki" ] Re: "racial slurs" [David Wright ] No Pony Tails?? [Michael Paz ] Tar Baby & The Great White Wonder ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: Gene Shay & The Tinkers (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: "racial slurs" [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Being Irish NJC ["Eric Taylor" ] 110 Minute Tapes at TRU [mann@chicagonet.net] Re: Racial Slurs [Scott Price ] Message vs the Messenger [Julian51469@aol.com] Thank you for your lucidity [Julian51469@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 14:45:32 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: NJC: Icq updat4e Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 21:27:15 -0500 From: Julie Webb I don't know if anyone keeps up with icq, but I personally prefer it to AOL's Instant Messenger. My new ICQ ID number is 53794672. Feel free to ad.d me to your Buddy list if you would like. - -Julie alias Don Juan's Fertile Daughter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:43:48 -0600 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: Kennedy/ "Urge for Going" James Leahy wrote: "I heard a lovely interpretation of Urge for Going on CBC radio last night. It was by Kennedy (violinist Nigel Kennedy) from his new album Classics, a collection of interpretations of Kennedy's favourite pop and classical pieces. The weird beauty of Joni's melody really comes through." Interesting: from the first time I heard Joni's version a couple of years back (yes, I first heard this through the JMDL tape trees, some 30 years after it was recorded), I've always "heard" a violin part in this song, as a kind of counterpoint. There seems to be so much in the melody to work from. I've wished I had the facility on the instrument and musical sophistication to shake it out myself, but knew I would fall far short of the task. I'm now inspired to check out Kennedy's take on "Urge." Thanks, James, for passing this along--even if Kennedy stuck to the melody! ;-) Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:55:12 -0600 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: RE: "racial slurs" MG wrote: "I am always wary of the argument "well, there is always someone offended by something. Beyond a doubt, this is true. But there is a difference between being offended by a description of a situation, (case in point: the Magdelene Laundries), and being offended by terminology that breeds hate and ignorance." ME TOO!!! (So kick me off the list! ;-) ) Well said, MG. And a very interesting discussion, which I'm just beginning to read now, after letting digests pile up over my head for some two weeks. I've long been more than a little uneasy with the tension in DJRD between Joni's outright appreciation of cultures other than her own, especially musically, and her use of certain terms and images. I'm really looking forward to reading other JMDLers' impressions on this topic. Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:30:47 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: NJC The milk of human kindness NJC This cracked me up, folks, so I share it with you. Azeem Most amusing - where there is life!!>> > > The following letter was forwarded by someone who teaches at a junior >high > school in >Memphis, Tennessee; the letter was sent to the principal's office after the > school had sponsored >a luncheon for the elderly.  It is an actual letter.  This story is a >credit to > > all human kind.  Read it, soak it in, and bask in the warm feeling that >it > > leaves you with. > > > > ------------------------------------------ > > > > Dear Reyer School: > > > > God bless you for the beautiful radio I won at your recent senior >citizen's > > luncheon.  I am 84 years old and live at the county home for the aged. >All > > my people are gone.  It's nice to know that someone thinks of me.  God > > bless > > > > you for your kindness to an old forgotten lady.  My roommate is 95 and > > always > > had her own radio, but would never let me listen to it, no matter how >often > > or sweetly I asked.  The other day her radio fell and broke into a lot >of > > pieces. It was awful.  She was very upset.  She then asked if she could > > listen to mine, and I said fuck you. > > > >  Sincerely, > > > >  Edna Johnston > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:30:45 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Racial Slurs (long) NJC In a message dated 01/11/99 12:40:05 GMT Standard Time, MGVal@aol.com writes: << Is that really true? That racial slurs are learned? >> Of course it's true. If you get to the heart of it, ALL behaviour, including language, is learned. Setting that generalisation aside, I absolutely believe that racial slurs, like any other form of abuse, are learned. Indeed, I think there is a case that racial hatred is learned too. Very young children of different colours will play together quite happily, and it's only later that they may start to discriminate against some groups, almost certainly because of suggestion from people with strong influence over them (family/peers/friends). My point is that words are very powerful, and the exercise of greater restraint can make a real difference. An example: years ago, one of my brothers remarked that when he saw a black person driving an expensive car, his first thought was "where did he steal that from". I was - truly - appalled at this statement. It would never have been my first thought, but the weird and unsettling thing is that it stuck with me, and for a long time after that, when I saw a black person driving an expensive car, those words would pop unbidden into my head. I didn't believe them, partly because I was old enough to ignore my brother, partly because logically I knew he was talking rubbish. If he'd held his tongue the thought would never have entered my head. If, on the other hand, I'd been exposed to those sort sentiments a lot from an early age, they would have undoubtedly taken hold. So, to anyone who thinks we should all say what we're thinking and not censor ourselves (and they do exist, for example in the anti-PC camp, often a haven for people who don't understand the term but want to exercise their right to use words like "nigger" and "Paki"), think again. You lose nothing by withholding a racist slur, and the world might benefit from having one bigot fewer. Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:30:44 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Heart /Sandra/Stormy Weather/Joni (now njc) In a message dated 01/11/99 00:50:30 GMT Standard Time, hell@ihug.co.nz writes: << Helen - in mourning over the All Black loss. 12-year-old's play better rugby than I saw at 4am this morning! >> Helen, I confess I was rooting for France! The Brits are supposed to hate the French at the moment because of all this nonsense over beef (my solution is that everyone stop eating beef forthwith, but I think that'll take a while to happen...), but as our near neighbours and the only remaining northern hemisphere side left, I had to plump for them. I'll probably go for Australia for the final, as my brother and his family are there, but it's a tricky decision! Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:30:42 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Brian Wilson (LONG) - NJC In a message dated 31/10/99 22:20:49 GMT Standard Time, wallykai@interserver.com.ar writes: << leslie! what a beautiful post! you don't know how much i can relate to your feelings. thanks for telling us. wallyk am i wrong or do a lot of the people on this list seem to have been to hell and back too? is that what attracts us to joni? chuck mitchell once said about joni that she wrote for neurotics. >> I like that! Facile, but a great one-liner. I wouldn't say I've been to hell and back, but I've certainly gone through some bad stuff, as some of you will know, and I can also really identify with Leslie's post about the difficulty in crying. From the age of about 14 until about 3 years ago (I'm now 34), I cried once, and that was when I was 18. After that, nada, until therapy helped me begin to sort out all my shit. I can remember the immense relief I felt at the unblocking of this dam. It's still a big issue for me. There have been only two occasions since the jam loosened when I've been able to cry in front of another person, once a with girlfriend and the other time in a group of 14 people on my course. That "big boys don't cry" nonsense is more harmful than many can imagine. Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 00:19:34 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Racial Slurs (long) NJC I agree with you Azeem. All behaviour is learned, at least of this type. o f course rascism is learned.(as an aside where I lived in London, seeing anyon, asian, black, white, driving an expensive car, my first thought was Drug Dealer! That had much to do with the poor deprived area within which we lived and because of knowing the area and its people well. okay, maybe it wasn't drugs, but so many people on the fiddle in some way or other. I had a friend who i thought was different. ownerd her own houes, had a Merc etc. Then i found out, from her, and she said it nonchalantly, that she had got all this thru illegal means. of course not evryone was like this but it does tend to stick). Chauvenism and homophobia are learned too. Both because of society and because or religion. No child escapes growing up without being taught that women are less than man and that homosexuals are less than both. One reason why it is so difficult to teach otherwise to adults. People don't change their beliefs that easily for to do so can be painful. If we become not racist, or non chauvinistic, or non homophobic then we also have to accpt that people we maybe loved were not perfect or that our religion isn't, that latter one can be very very frightening because for many to disagree with God, as taught to them, means eternal damantion. So, as i think in all things negative, fear is behind it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:13:51 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Racial Slurs (long) NJC MG writes: << << Is that really true? That racial slurs are learned? >> >> Not only are racial slurs learned, but racist behavior is learned IMO. I know this may be getting off topic somewhat, but I had a very uncomfortable situation happen on Friday night. Ed (my sweetie of 22 years) and I met a good friend of ours for dinner. The 3 of us waited for her new boyfriend to join us. Ed and I had not met her new boyfriend before, but when he arrived he was a nice young man and he and Ed had something in common. They were both born in Cuba. As the evening went on, the conversation got deeper about the Cuban culture, etc........ Everything was going fine until our friend's new boyfriend brought up the subject of Cubans from pre-Castro. He said they were so different from any of the other Latin countries. They would never mix the races, and how those living in Cuba today were horrible. What really got our blood boiling was when he said that he was *not* bigoted, but if his daughter were to ever bring home a man of a different color, he would disown her. We were in shock to say the least. How could this seemingly intelligent man say such a horrible thing? He claimed he was not prejudice and he had lots of friends that were black and friends that were gay (just to make sure we weren't offended. HA ! ) He said he felt that he just wanted his daughter to have a *good* life, and not looked down upon from society. He pointed out that it was just the way he was raised, and we shouldn't question his views on raising his daughter. I managed to hold my tongue since it was our first meeting, but not my dear ole Eddie. He lit into this guy with veins popping out of his forehead. "How could you be such a racist? If you're daughter brings home someone that makes her happy, you should support her and not perpetuate such hatred!!!" The guy's reply was" It would be different if society wasn't the way it was"................Well Duh!!! He displayed further ignorance my explaining that being gay is different. He said " The two of you can't help being what you are, but my daughter has a choice as to the race of the man she marries." I was speechless, but not Ed. He said " So what are you going to say to your daughter if she brings home a black woman?" With that statement, we excused ourselves and left. As for our friend, she is no longer dating this man. Sorry to be so winded, but my point is that racial slurs and behavior is *definitely* learned from our parents/family/peers. Every single person can make a difference!!!! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 17:44:23 -0800 From: Scott Price Subject: Re: Racial Slurs This thread has sparked some interesting discussion so I felt like throwing in a few cents' worth. The lyrics in question, from "Dreamland" off DJRD, should not be taken out of context of the song. It's one thing to single out the two words "tar baby" or "white wonder" but we should look at the entire setting before questioning Joni's political-correctness. "Dreamland" IMO is another one of her classic studies of duality. It's about life on a tropical island as opposed to life in Canada during winter. It's about the European explorers Raleigh and Columbus "claiming" this land for the sun-worshipping masses who followed, when it really belongs to the native people. It's about partying and dancing to a samba beat, living life to its fullest, right before nodding off to sleep (dreamland). I think that by this time in her career Joni's interest in black culture had progressed beyond fascination; she felt she understood African Americans enough to really identify with their histories and struggles and related to this so deeply that she donned the makeup and pretended to be black for the album cover. She *assumed* the identity. This was her way of saying "I *know* what you feel...I understand and have this huge empathy..." Being this comfortable with black culture allows her to use a questionable label like tar baby, just as a few of today's black artists use the word "nigger" in some of their songs or in conversation among peers. In this case, "tar baby" provides the perfect contrast, or duality, to the "white wonder" as they enjoy a glass of rum and tacitly share the knowledge of things to come...the visiting hordes, nights of "temptation" and "gambling," after which they fly back, recline buttons down, to six-foot drifts of snow, jobs, kids, everyday life. I don't think Joni meant anything derogatory, explicitly nor implied, when she used these words. They are a result of where she was and how she felt at that time...just like most all of her compositions...they provide vivid images as only she can. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:56:04 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Gene Shay & The Tinkers (NJC) > > Shaylist, 10/31/99 > > Sunday, 4 -8 PM > 88.5 WXPN Philadelphia > 88.1 WXPH Harrisburg > 90.5 WKHS Worton/Baltimore > 104.9 Lehigh Valley > > ... > > The Tinker's Own/The Bergen-An Buachaillin Ban Medley/ Bending The Banshee's > Ear/self Woohoo, Steve! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 21:09:45 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: "racial slurs" The term "tar baby" is patently offensive when used by white people - a point of Toni Morrison's book. Any doubt about that : we had the reported testimony here of two African Americans that was shared with us, how much it hurt them. I think it borders on racism to dismiss that testimony with every type of equivocation about it is not really offensive and there are terms for white folks too... yes there are, but racism is racism and get real. In "Dreamland" (whose lyrics I have been re-reading for the last hour) I am not sure of the context in which Joni is saying what she says. No, I firmly do not believe that Joni is a racist. Yes, I do believe that an artist may have far greater license in an artistic sense to express what may be a condemnation of racism - which Dreamland may well be... again, reading all of the lyrics. It not a condemnation of racism, there is certainly a point of that song that denounces colonialism, the elimination of native peoples "to claim the beaches and all concessions in the name of the suntan slaves." The fact that the song may work on other levels is a witness to Joni's genius. Chaim Potok in "My Name is Asher Lev" writes of the artistic use of offensive symbols to cry out against injustice - in that case, Holocaust. That book is based on a painting in the Art Institute of Chicago, whose painter I sadly cannot remember. The picture, though, uses symbols which are offensive to point out how blind we are to the very offensiveness of those symbols. Joni may well be the same... especially as "Asher Lev" was published a year or two before "Dreamland" and may or may not have a role to play in this. And for the artistic risk, Joni took it. Whether it works or not, I guess we are seeking that answer. I hope that all of those who chime in this are not white, and we listen to the voices of people of color. I think that Joni's use of the term falls into the "Asher Lev" category. I base that on knowing Joni's life and her whole oeuvre. If David Duke were to have written the song it would be coming from a very different place and carry a whole other meaning. But for the term itself: if a black person calls me a "Great White Hope" and I call that person "Tar Baby" given all that has happened in history... I guess if some can't see the difference there is nothing else that can be said. If people in the JMDL cannot understand the meanings and connotations of words then: I suggest that you talk to some African Americans about it. All of the above is written IMO. I must add that I have been saddened by some who fail to understand how words can hurt and there is a lot of historic baggage that some words carry. We heard the testimony of the visceral reaction to the phrase "tar baby" by two people of color. Did we all hear that and think we who are white once again know better than they? Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 21:15:32 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Racial Slurs (long) NJC AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: > So, to anyone who thinks we should all say what we're thinking and not censor > ourselves (and they do exist, for example in the anti-PC camp, often a haven > for people who don't understand the term but want to exercise their right to > use words like "nigger" and "Paki"), think again. You lose nothing by > withholding a racist slur, and the world might benefit from having one bigot > fewer. > > Azeem You lose nothing by withholding a racist slur, and the world might benefit from having one bigot fewer. You lose nothing by withholding a racist slur, and the world might benefit from having one bigot fewer. You lose nothing by withholding a racist slur, and the world might benefit from having one bigot fewer. Vince writes: I thought that bore repeating. Thanks, Azeem. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:19:08 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: "racial slurs" > I think that Joni's use of the term falls into the "Asher Lev" > category. I base that on knowing Joni's life and her whole oeuvre. If > David Duke were to have written the song it would be coming from a very > different place and carry a whole other meaning. Vince - you said all that my tired brain cells could not completely articulate. Thank you for making the point more clearly and consisely. Excellent post. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 21:19:36 EST From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Racial Slurs (long) NJC Really early this morning, I pondered: << << Is that really true? That racial slurs are learned? >> >> And there were some wonderful posts that included this thought: >>Not only are racial slurs learned, but racist behavior is learned IMO. I agree with this. And to clarify a bit of what I meant, someone had posted that they did not know that "Tar Baby" would be a racist term and mentioned this: < <> It would have been more clear if I had said: "If you are an adult, who has been educated and introduced to various cultures, then are racial slurs really learned? Isn't part of your responsibility as an adult to be aware of things? And of what, exactly, are you aware?!?!" I know that kids are color-blinded. That people need a context in which to place derogatory comments. Since we were speaking of an adult list member's perception of the term, "Tar Baby," and the adult Joni who wrote the lyrics, my wondering was more along "how learned are racial slurs when one is an aware citizen of the world." Kakki also sent this post, which I really enjoyed: >>>I think another point to remember is that "free speech" in art is still a very recent phenomenon. Like it or not, Joni, especially as a "female" artist as recently as the late 70s, could not have easily gotten away with just laying all her perceptions out there, unadulterated, at that time. She still had to write in ciphers to a certain extent. >>>> True, true, true. We are, of course, talking about a song written way before the times of "Piss Christ." Still, I am always marveling at the thin line of "free speech," "imagery," "ironic statements," or "social commentary," all juxtaposed on what could be slurs. I don't think that it is being politically correct or incorrect. I think that it's just tough to create art, it's tough to create one's point of view, it's tough to express one's self in whatever form because you need to be clear, you need to use words that have their origins in your personal history and you need to be mindful of your audience. I have no answers, not even to the seeming simple: "what's for dinner?" Great posts, all! MG np: "running on nerves and feelings" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 21:50:22 EST From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: "racial slurs" njc In a message dated 11/1/99 6:08:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, revrvl@pathwaynet.com writes: << We heard the testimony of the visceral reaction to the phrase "tar baby" by two people of color. Did we all hear that and think we who are white once again know better than they? >> This and another piece of correspondence made me think of the preface to Richard Wright's classic: "Black Boy." If I am not mistaken, he wrote the seeds for this story were planted by a newspaper headline that proclaimed: "Negro goes on killing spree, no apparent motive." Wright set out with his novel to try and show a motive, to try and illustrate in some small way what it meant to be a different color and not only denied the very basics of a decent life, but to even have to fear for the lousy life they were allowed to have. To help others understand was behind "no apparent motive." In my 40 years, I have been called "stupid" or "rude." Because I am partially deaf, I either answer a question so absurdly when I don't properly hear as to appear dumb or I don't hear at all and ignore the person. I have been called a welfare freeloader during a period of my life when I was supporting 3 children on a job that paid $9.75 an hour and needed food stamps to help me over the bump. I can remember being on one blind date and when talking about my children being asked: "how many different fathers." They hurt. But never once, for one second, for one iota, did I fear for my life. Did I ever think that I would not be allowed to go forth with my life because of my skin color. I think that as a privileged white, I can read and I can learn and I can become more aware, but I can never, ever really "own" the history and pain of people who have been systemically ripped of their status of human beings not all that many years ago. MG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 21:57:08 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: Re: Racial Slurs On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Scott Price wrote: > ...she felt she understood African > Americans enough to really identify with their histories and struggles and > related to this so deeply that she donned the makeup and pretended to be > black for the album cover. She *assumed* the identity. This was her way of > saying "I *know* what you feel..." I'd suggest that if Joni believed that (that she knows what African Americans feel), she was wrong, and it's arrogant of her to claim that sort of community with them. - --David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:59:39 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: "racial slurs" In a message dated 11/1/99 8:08:07 PM US Central Standard Time, revrvl@pathwaynet.com writes: << The term "tar baby" is patently offensive when used by white people - a point of Toni Morrison's book. Any doubt about that : we had the reported testimony here of two African Americans that was shared with us, how much it hurt them. I think it borders on racism to dismiss that testimony with every type of equivocation about it is not really offensive and there are terms for white folks too... yes there are, but racism is racism and get real. >> Firstly I have never used the term "Tar Baby" to describe someone and never will, nor do I use any of the more common racist phraseology - BUT...are you saying it's OK for an artist like Sade or Toni Morrison to use the term and not Joni simply because Joni is white? I disagree wholeheartedly...it's racist to think there is LANGUAGE that one race can use and another can't...it's like saying there's a WATER FOUNTAIN that one race can use and another can't! Isn't it? To repeat a pet peeve, it's why I hate to hear "niggaz" used so commonly on rap records...it becomes acceptable with usage, like we all seem to agree, racism is learned, and what better way to learn language than to hear it repeatedly... And I know that the common argument here is that the usage makes it powerless to the one it's targeted to, and I don't agree with that either...As a Christian, I see us all as children of God anyway... All in all, great input from everyone on this subject - I love getting my head expanded! Bob NP: Aerosmith, "Dream On" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:20:11 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Racial Slurs and DJRD I wrote: >I interpreted "Tar baby and the Great White Wonder talking over a glass of rum, burning on > the inside with the knowledge of things to come" as meaning that the > inequity in social station between the two had lessened enough to where they > could now converse together over a drink, yet both of them burn on the > inside with the cognizance that the inequities of history, (and by > extension, racism) are still far from unresolved. Oh gee, it's a good thing I'm not being graded here (or at least it doesn't count ;-). I meant "still far from solved" or "still unresolved" - that's what comes from overwork and trying to write on my lunch hour! On another note, I went back today and read on the JMDL articles site some of the reviews of the DJRD album from the time when it was released and didn't know whether to laugh or cry! Eiyiyi, it's a miracle Joni kept on creating her music after reading some of the "critics" back then. I suggest the reading for a real cringing, eye-opener of just how grossly misunderstood and unappreciated she has been at times. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 23:23:21 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: Re: "racial slurs" On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > As a Christian, I see us all as children of God anyway... Yeah, but we're not in heaven yet, Bob. ;) - --David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 22:25:26 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: No Pony Tails?? Mark wrote: "pony tail less" Oh my gawd does this mean that I have to cut mine off too. I am catching up on the digests and I am halfway home. I have missed you guys. Did anyone get a chance to check out our webcast on rollingstone.com yesterday? It really looked and sounded great MOST of the day. A couple of the mixes were pretty bad (like George Clinton). They had their own engineer and it was out of my control. I like the group Train very much and I thought Ben Folds Five was really good. If any of you get a chance to see Kathleen Lague from Nashville, I thought she was really cool. BTW I have been enjoying the geriatric songtitle thread. How about: Shades of Scarlett Carcasses Ray's Dad's Hearse Yvette In Traction You Dream Flat Lines Hope everyone is well. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 23:25:19 -0500 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Tar Baby & The Great White Wonder Debra Shea wonders: << What was going on with Joni when she was doing DJRD? >> The fact that she dressed as a very funky black man on the cover should give us a clue. Joni has often commented that she feels like a black man in a white woman's body. We must remember that she paints with words & avoid interpreting her lyrics as personal opinions. Dreamland seems to me an impressionistic vision of the dichotomies Joni saw going on around her & I feel that she captured it with total honesty & beauty. Also remember that it was DJRD that impressed Charles Mingus so much that he chose Joni to put lyrics & melody to his final compositions. Obviously Charley was not offended one bit. We're all just mutts of the planet really. There is no such thing as a purebred. E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:44:12 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Gene Shay & The Tinkers (NJC) The Tinker himself wrote: > Shaylist, 10/31/99 > Sunday, 4 -8 PM > 88.5 WXPN Philadelphia > 88.1 WXPH Harrisburg > 90.5 WKHS Worton/Baltimore > 104.9 Lehigh Valley > The Tinker's Own/The Bergen-An Buachaillin Ban Medley/ Bending The > Banshee's Ear/self GENE SHAY!!! Steve, this must have you beyond ecstatic! And it is more than deserved. This weekend I was a surprised recipient of the "Bending the Banshee's Ear" (LOVE that title) CD in my mailbox and let me tell you all, it is a total jewel. The performances and sound are perfection on each of the beautiful cuts (both tradtional and original Irish/English/Celtic songs), the artwork on both the disc itself and the cover and liner notes is fantastic. This one is an absolute A+ and huge kudos go to Steve as the co-producer. Please keep us posted of further forays up the charts, Steve, and a big congratulations to you, Michele and the band! Kakki NP: The Tinker's Own - True Lover's Farewell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 23:58:59 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: "racial slurs" Our good friend Bob wrote: > > > Firstly I have never used the term "Tar Baby" to describe someone and never > will, nor do I use any of the more common racist phraseology - BUT...are you > saying it's OK for an artist like Sade or Toni Morrison to use the term and > not Joni simply because Joni is white? Bob, I and all of us here love ya. So I will answer honestly. IMHO: Yes and no. No, if you read what I said about Potok's Asher Lev and if I communicated my thoughts well. But: a very big Yes, I am saying its not alright. I'll be blunt: I am part Polish, part Italian. If one of family or friends calls me a Polack or a wop, I take it one way. If someone else uses the same term, it is offensive and derogatory, for they are not a part of the group, they are using a term which carries a lot of baggage, including prejudice and bigotry. If one of my gay friends calls me a faggot, that is between us. If a straight person does it, what I hear is the taunts of the killers of Matthew Shepherd. It depends on where you are in relationship to the other person. I personally think the use of the term "niggarz" or whatever spelling by the gangsta rappers is a mistake for it re-introduces the use of the word in common speech where we had tried to expel it. Too many people, especially young white kids, are thinking, if they can say it, why can't I? You can't because of the history, the meaning. There is a world of difference between two African Americans using the term "nigger" with each other and a white person saying to a black person. I suspect that the man who was dragged to his death in Jasper, Texas, heard the term nigger just before he died. Is there one circumstance in which any white person can say that word to a black person? Bob, the only time that I ever hit one of my children is when the older son said the word "nigger." I don't know which one of us were more shocked. It was an unthinking action on my part: it was automatic. We had a long, long talk about that afterwards of course and in my apologies I explained the depth of evil in that word. He understood. I am not proud that even once I hit my son, I am ashamed of that, but there is that little bit that says, my greatest anger with him was not when he talked back to me, but when he defamed someone else. Words have great power. Not all words are interchangeable. Not all people can use all words. There are things that I can never say because it has not been a part of my experience or the words are not true to me and who I am. And it has to with belonging. Can I call you a "cracker"? I suspect you would find that offensive coming from me, perhaps not offensive coming from your best friend. I don't have the right to that word (unless I am eating soup and referring to a bread product) because I do not belong to a group that owns that word. The tar baby story was and is a part of the legend and cultural rationalization, the mythos, of the justification of slavery. It is a very loaded term. Bob, my best to you. I hope I have said what I wanted to say with some coherance. I offfer my thoughts not because I have any wisdom, but because of my own life experience, and because I have great respect and affection for you and I take your question as an honest one, for you are a forthright and good person. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 00:12:20 -0500 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: Being Irish NJC My great grandparents on my mother's side, Serelda & Enoch Herald, came to America from County Rush north of Dublin. I learned this in 1985 & researched it extensively. To my astonishment, Taylor & Fox (my father's mother's maiden name) are both common to County Rush. INCEST I thought! Yet, Fox is where my Cherokee blood derives. Stranger still, Chief Taylor is the name of the Cherokee chief in North Carolina. I swear I'm NOT making this up! Researching further I learned that Scots is the most ancient known name for Ireland, explaining the term Scotch-Irish. Another interesting myth is that the prophet Jeremiah brought King Solomon's daughter, Tei Tephi, to Ireland during the Hebrew Babylonian Captivity & she wed the first High King, Hermon, on Tara Hill. According to the myth, Tei brought with her King David's harp & this is the origin of Ireland's national symbol. But nationality has ceased to impress me because it seems to be the root of all war, along with religion. When it comes down to it we are all really just one race - the HUMAN RACE! E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 23:56:25 -0600 From: mann@chicagonet.net Subject: 110 Minute Tapes at TRU Another place to find 110 Minute Tapes. I was in Toys R Us today and found TDK 110 Minute Tapes Laura ......Freebies below for those interested: There are sweepstakes at this site plus you can get THREE free years of Popular Photography magazine: http://www.mountainzone.com/mymountain/contest/magazines/pop-photography/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Win a Spa Vacation and get a free sample of Colgate Fresh Stripe Toothpaste at: http://www.colgate.com/totalfreshstripe/top.html The answers to the quiz are: 1) All the above 2) True 3) 12 hours ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Noxzema Skin Fitness FREE http://www.noxsport.yourinfohere.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/HelloNox?brand=noxsp&banner=sample&site=fitskin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Pick 3 items from this page and get all for $1 Use code C12239 for free shipping http://www.cooking.com/products/shlist.asp?Source=GC&LinkID=54& ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 22:42:22 -0800 From: Scott Price Subject: Re: Racial Slurs At 09:57 PM 11/1/99 -0500, David Wright wrote: >I'd suggest that if Joni believed that (that she knows what >African Americans feel), she was wrong, and it's arrogant of her to claim >that sort of community with them. I don't know exactly what Joni was thinking, and didn't mean to speak for her in my previous post (just stating my opinion) but she is a very perceptive observer...and reporter (through her art and music) of those observations. Agreed, unless one has walked in *those* shoes, one cannot *fully* comprehend what it's like. But, if one is perceptive, open-minded, and has first-hand experience, can't that person develop a darn good idea of what it's like in those footsteps? Taken to the next level, if this is arrogant and wrongful, then should any of us seek relationships of any kind outside our own races, religions, or orientations, because anyone who wasn't of the same creed or color would only be arrogant if they claimed to be understanding or sympathetic? My anglo father not only understood, I think he even more deeply *felt* what it was like to be a minority than my mother (who was one) did. At the very least, he was more outraged about the injustices she suffered than she was. This is not arrogance. It is goodwill and it is honor and it is love. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 02:13:02 EST From: Julian51469@aol.com Subject: Message vs the Messenger MGVal@aol.com said: ...and I'm taking your side. Joni is not here to defend her process so why are we "bashing" her? Why not bash the concept of racism, economic apartheid, and the violence of ignorance and disrespect instead of an absent martyr? The discussion of wether or not the use of "tar baby" comes out of calousness or a desire to paint a picture that demands thought is very cool. The fact is the term exists because of a culture with a history as well as a level of stupidity that allows it to continue to be a two-faced paradox - a cute little children's bedtime story (from pre-literary Africa to Walt Disney) and a derogatary term that has become another way to dehumanize each other. I do believe that Joni has proven herself on so many levels as to her ability to be thoughtful, wise, and having the ability to provoke a healing response...as in: not being afraid to use the word "tar baby." As they say in my country: Joni fuckin' rules, OK?;-) Julian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 02:47:58 EST From: Julian51469@aol.com Subject: Thank you for your lucidity Hello Kakki, This post of yours is awsome! Your insight into Joni's layers of metaphor juxtaposed to her culture and the relatively new concept of free speach...straight to the heart of the matter, I tell you. The genius in the classroom has stood up triuphantly and spoken her insight with thundering clarity. < Like it or not, Joni, especially as a "female" artist as recently as the late 70s, could not have easily gotten away with just laying all her perceptions out there, unadulterated, at that time. She still had to write in ciphers to a certain extent.> I am reminded of Joni's explanation on the Club #47 tape (I think it is... Ft. Lauderdale) of the unreleased song "The Way It Is". She had to make the song aloof enough so that the "powers that be" couldn't censor it and clear enough so that she could comiserate, bond, and rise up with the underdog. That Joni, she's so sly and graceful, aint she? This got me to thinking as well....I wonder if any of the Magdelene nuns are still around from "the good old days" and if the stones concealed behind their rosaries have cracked or perhaps have melted because of Joni's "artistic liscence." Thanks again, Julian ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #491 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?