From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #490 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, November 1 1999 Volume 04 : Number 490 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Racial Slurs (long) [dsk ] RE: A long-winded JoniFest Boxed Set message ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Jonatha's influences...njc [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Racial Slurs (long) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Racial Slurs (long) [MGVal@aol.com] Re: Racial Slurs (long) [Deb Messling ] Re: Racial Slurs (long) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: Racial Slurs (long) [MGVal@aol.com] Re: Racial Slurs (long) [luvart@snet.net] Julian's Joni's Jazz #2 [Julian51469@aol.com] Kennedy does Joni [James Leahy ] Re: Julian's Joni's Jazz #2 [Jerry Notaro ] Joni dream [Emily Kirk Gray ] Re: Joni dream [TerryM2442@aol.com] Today in Joni History - November 1 [Today in Joni History ] Today in Joni History - October 31 [Today in Joni History ] This Month in Joni History - November [This Month in Joni History ] Re: Tapes, postage, etc. (NJC) [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Racial Slurs (long) [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Urge for going (guitar chords) ["P. Henry" ] Today in Joni History - November 2 [Today in Joni History ] Re: Urge for going (guitar chords) [Mark Domyancich ] Re: Happy Birthday Grace! NJC [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Almost (Did) Cut Our Hair (absolutely NJC) [Martin Giles ] Re:Tapes,postage,etc. (NJC) ["Jean-Pierre Pellerin" ] Re: Racial Slurs (long) [dsk ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 03:23:39 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Racial Slurs (long) Patricia O'Connor wrote: > The term "politically correct" hadn't yet been coined when DJRD was > released, however that's not to say that one didn't recognize a racial slur > when one met one in a dark alley, or in a crowded bar, or on a record album, > or when one ran head-first into the slur-maker. We didn't call it > politically incorrect, we called it racist. Racial slurs have to be learned, and I, for one, didn't know Tar Baby as a derogatory term since I'd never heard anyone called that (tone of voice makes it obvious how a word is meant) and had never associated the name with a group of people. Last night I (Scotch-Irish-American raised in the South) asked a couple of friends (both African-Americans, a woman raised in Jamaica and a man raised on Army bases around the world) whether Tar Baby was a racist term. Small survey, I know, but after hearing their instant reactions I have to say that the Uncle Remus stories that Tar Baby comes from are not benign (as I'd written before). [Yes, "Life IS for learning".] Apparently, they're still a symbol of racism (even when the actual stories are not directly experienced and their African heritage is not known about). Neither of them were angry about my question (they know how curious I am, obnoxiously so sometimes), but my woman friend could hardly discuss it at first. It was like the air got sucked out of her just by hearing the name. Then she repeated some of the ways she'd heard that name; very painful. My other friend didn't have such a visceral reaction even though he too had been called that. He knew of the Tar Baby story, but had never read it because his father didn't allow him to. He was 8 when DJRD came out. I asked why Toni Morrison would title her book Tar Baby if it was such a derogatory term, and then asked if it's one of those terms that means one thing if Toni Morrison or Sade uses it and another if I do. (I was thinking of the several discussions on this list about that topic, different groups, but same idea.) They said, yes, that was the case, and I said that was very confusing and then we went on to talk about that and other things. SO TO THE JONI CONTENT: How could Joni use the name Tar Baby in Dreamland? Surely someone back then let her know the hurtful connotations of the name. After hearing my friends' reactions, I can't imagine ever saying it, much less putting it on an album for all time. It seems very insensitive of her. And I've always been uncomfortable with her dressing as a black man on the cover; that doesn't seem bold to me, it makes me queasy for some reason. Add to that the "Mooslems, Mooooslems, heh, heh, heh" in the booklet, and what's going on here? Is it possible for all of this to be done "in fun"? I don't know that anyone but Joni could answer this, but it's something I'm now wondering about. Debra Shea P.S. No, I don't consider this Joni-bashing. And I wouldn't call her a racist because of these things. But they are definitely warts (to my mind anyway). Then again, maybe I'm just being too serious (oh yeah, I've been accused of THAT before -- hasn't stopped me from wondering though). What was going on with Joni when she was doing DJRD? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 05:37:32 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: A long-winded JoniFest Boxed Set message kakki, my bites keep resurrecting too. i live in a mosquito infested area [in the summer; the frost kills them in april], so i thought i was immune [go look at your eyes they're full of moon]. but these bugs are something else. you don't see them, you don't feel them'. but 6 weeks later the bites are still there, furiously itching. it's getting warm here, so i'm already wearing bermuda shorts.people stare at my legs wondering what kind of disease i have. but i'd surrender myself to these bugs any day of the week if that's the price to pay for a jonifest experience. wallyk > P.S. Mosquito report - the bites last 6 weeks and "reactivated" twice during > that period. Today one particularly pesky bite reactivated once again on my > hand (this is unreal!). I either have to find a doctor specializing in > exotic insect bite anomalies or maybe it's just me itching to get the box > set and once in my hand will go away - like putting a penny on a wart ;-) > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 09:37:25 +0200 From: "Lori REASON" Subject: Re:Re : Being Irish NJC Jason: I am not first-generation Irish. My grandparents on my father's side of the family were from just outside Dublin, and my Dad's brothers and sisters moved to America many years ago. I have never actually met any of them. ******* If anyone has parents or grandparents that were born in Ireland - or rather with an Irish passport - you can get for an Irish passport, then because Ireland is part of the EU you could work anywhere in Europe. In spite of the harsh weather it's a wonderful country. I'm planning on going back. But you have to be prepared to be teased. It's a national passtime. They don't mean any harm - it's all for fun. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:15:26 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Jonatha's influences...njc In a message dated 10/31/99 9:37:05 PM US Central Standard Time, whitlock@karmanos.org writes: << I saw Jennifer Kimball last year opening for Patty Larkin--she was terrific! Her cd "Veering from the wave" is great. Go, and post about what you thought....that's being bossy, isn't it??!! >> Thanks for the tip Jeanne...I really think I'll go, this venue is mega-intimate, probably only room for 75-100 people in this little downtown coffeehouse. Barring unforeseen circumstances, I'm there! Bob NP: Richard Thompson, "Walking the Long Miles Home" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:26:48 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Racial Slurs (long) In a message dated 11/1/99 2:23:20 AM US Central Standard Time, dsk11@bellatlantic.net writes: << How could Joni use the name Tar Baby in Dreamland? Surely someone back then let her know the hurtful connotations of the name. >> Debra, you make a good point, but by the same token, what if there are white people who are offended by the phrase "Great White Wonder"? I imagine you could go through Joni's songs and find lots of things to potentially offend lots of people. Some people are offended by the use of the word "fuck", I'm sure many Catholics are offended by Magdalene Laundries, etc. etc. So should Joni strive to write only lyrics that couldn't possibly offend somebody? I certainly don't think so, lord knows we have enough bland & banal songwriters out there as it is...the important thing in my mind is, does Joni intend to offend or is she trying to stimulate us into thought and discussion (like this one, for instance)? I can GUARANTEE that she intended no racial offense with anything on DJRD, indeed, she integrates world music into the record throughout, as if to say 'the more colors, the better'...(stolen from Spike Lee) Anyway, just my take, but a great topic! Bob NP: Richard Thompson, "That's All, Amen, Close the Door" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:34:40 EST From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Racial Slurs (long) << Racial slurs have to be learned, and I, for one, didn't know Tar Baby as a derogatory term since I'd never heard anyone called that (tone of voice makes it obvious how a word is meant) and had never associated the name with a group of people. Is that really true? That racial slurs are learned? Might not one pick up that a word or term or phrase just isn't the right thing to use if one speaks with a conscious mind? I would wonder if that perhaps in the beginning, racial slurs would need to be learned, but in this day and age with such strides in communication and education, I would think that only the most obscure of terms would have to have their racist quality "learned." >>> SO TO THE JONI CONTENT: How could Joni use the name Tar Baby in Dreamland? Surely someone back then let her know the hurtful connotations of the name. Maybe she is racist, maybe in the "name of art," she doesn't care or may think she is exempt. I would wonder if as an artist, she may have a message in the song or an image to convey that she felt was best illustrated with racists words from "Tar Baby" to "Mooslems." I think that artistic and personal statements are tricky things when employing the technique of irony or absurdity. Heck, people have enough trouble with the cut-and-dry much less with things meaning not what they mean. >> P.S. No, I don't consider this Joni-bashing. I sure didn't take it that way at all. Sounds more like Joni-discussion to me! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 07:40:21 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: Racial Slurs (long) I'm late getting into this discussion, and missed lots of posts due to being away, but I always assumed the Great White Wonder was Joni herself, and Tar Baby was a black man with whom she was involved. In other words, these phrases were less social commentary and more private jokes. I have trouble discerning any social commentary in "Dreamland." It's all imagery. Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ ~there are only three kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:42:55 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Racial Slurs (long) Whats the point of this. Like you think Joni is some bozo racist who would put blatantly racist lyrics on one of her songs? I would have to think that to think that is to purposely try to construe a circumstance out of disperate meanings. For as many other things as joni has said and written about I dont think its the case. marcel deste. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 08:13:34 EST From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Racial Slurs (long) In a message dated 11/1/99 4:46:23 AM Pacific Standard Time, MDESTE1@aol.com writes: << Like you think Joni is some bozo racist who would put blatantly racist lyrics on one of her songs? >> Unfortunately, one need not be a bozo to be racist. I think that there is intentional racism where the user knows darn well that a word or phrase is mean. The user has a weak heart that bears down upon differences with scorn and fear. Racist terms keeps them from ever having to think and do the work to put aside differences. Then, in my opinion, there is unintentional racism. One just uses the word because it "fits," and that's that. Or it may be used for an ironic statement. Or in art. Bob pointed out that it's probably not hard to find those who have been offended by Joni's lyrics - pointing out Catholics and the "Magdelene Laundries." In thinking about that, I come up with this thought: I am always wary of the argument "well, there is always someone offended by something." Beyond a doubt, this is true. But there is a difference between being offended by a description of a situation, (case in point: the Magdelene Laundries), and being offended by terminology that breeds hate and ignorance. ****Important disclaimer: I DO NOT think that Bob is saying anything that condones or makes light of racism. His comment just got me thinking.************* Indeed, Dreamland may be nothing more than imagery. It may be a social statement. It may be an ironic song intended to make a point. The words just may have been ones that "worked" for Joni and she didn't care or felt that artistically, she was in the clear. The one true thing is that she wrote it, we heard it and the discussion is up for grabs. And of course, the positive thing in all of this is that it gets you thinking, no matter what side of the coin you come down upon. MG - not really wanting to head out to work today.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 08:23:05 -0500 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: Racial Slurs (long) >>>> SO TO THE JONI CONTENT: How could Joni use the name Tar Baby in >Dreamland? Surely someone back then let her know the hurtful connotations of >the name. At 07:34 AM 11/1/99 EST, MGVal@aol.com wrote: >Maybe she is racist, maybe in the "name of art," she doesn't care or may >think she is exempt. I would wonder if as an artist, she may have a message >in the song or an image to convey that she felt was best illustrated with >racists words from "Tar Baby" to "Mooslems." I think that artistic and >personal statements are tricky things when employing the technique of irony >or absurdity. Heck, people have enough trouble with the cut-and-dry much less >with things meaning not what they mean. > > I've been over my head in studying iconography (iconoclasm) in paintings. Could Joni's use of the phrase "tar baby" be construed as a form of iconography in word form? >>> P.S. No, I don't consider this Joni-bashing. > >I sure didn't take it that way at all. Sounds more like Joni-discussion to me! Me too :-) Heather > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 08:51:31 EST From: Julian51469@aol.com Subject: Julian's Joni's Jazz #2 Julian’s Joni’s Jazz Part Two Before I can recover from the shamanic visions of “The Jungle Line,” I am lulled into a delicate flower of a song...the torrid jungle river flows into a calm, secluded, intimate affair with Jane Siberry and “People’s Parties.” Jane is coy with her guests at this party. She flirts softly and remains aloof as she graces each line. The soundman echoes her carefully chosen words into my growing trance. Christina Wheeler and Sheryl Marshall chime in to greet her at this mellow, glistening little soiree. The band sparkles and ornaments her vocals with crystal and gauze and then a cozy, funky, little groove. The audience is seduced into this world and shows it by clapping softly along with the band. Ms. Siberry takes me floating over this party and at times, matter-of-factly in a sweetly spoken voice introduces me to her characters “...oh I told you when I met you that I was crazy, cried for soul beauty, cried for Eddie in the corner...” Even when she forgets a line (and “laughs it all away”) I am with her in her awkward shyness at this momentous yet intimate gathering. (What if you throw a party to pay tribute to the Creator and she showed up and sat in the fourth row? Would you remember your lines?) John Coltrane then sends his son Ravi out to guide us through “Same Situation.” As the band pushes and pulls me, holds and caresses me it is the voice of Ravi Coltrane’s soprano sax that lays down Joni’s lyrics in no uncertain terms. Every inflection and nuance is gracefully enunciated. Once the burning passions of the song has been laid out on the pyre the phoenix takes flight - Ravi takes off. Soaring, swooping and playing with colored kite tail ribbons in a blue sky, the son nods and waves hello to his father. Coltrane then touches back down to another verse, and a police siren plays incidental therimen in almost perfect pitch. (Because this is an instrumental take on Joni’s song, the environment around my “electronic ears from the past” take on the role of radio theater with the music as location.) “Do I know you? Are you from Providence? [Heaven or Rhode Island?] Why do I know you? Summer camp. Nursery school. She’s your probation officer. I thought you went to the same prep school I did. I don’t know. You remember though? New York hospital...Sing Sing? Mouseketeers? Shoowah.” Suddenly I’m at the reunion of former lives, and these are all the last places I was with my neighbors. It figures that deja vu should hit during like a soft steamroller during “Same Situation” played by the son of God. (Is this Ms. Wheeler on the six string...I’m going to take a chance here and say that it’s...) Jerome Harris, on guitar, elegantly leads me into “Edith and the Kingpin” with Christina Wheeler on strong and equally graceful vocals. There is a quiet power that is implied in this arrangement that accentuates and complements the lyrics in a way the original version wants to but is so layered with the complexity of the Hollywood hills that one has to dig to find it. I’m reminded of some of the stylings of the dynamic duo of Tuck and Patti but then the band sifts in like watching the stars coming out after a breathtaking sunset. Rattlesnake shakers set the stage for the smooth transition into “Jericho.” Christina Wheeler’s voice is a small prairie bird flying high and low with the breezes of the band blowing her and myself through this wide reaching world. From the prairies I am taken to the islands. Prince Be of PM Dawn croons and shimmies through a reggae-calypso version of “Free Man in Paris.” He has a soft voice that can sail this bright celebration. I am a free man on the islands, out on the water, tacking and jibing with the light funk that the Vernon and the band are dishing out. At one point the Prince Be and the Marshall/ Wheeler (aka the “Ladies of the Canyon”) backing duo take us on an improvisational jam on “Nobody’s calling me up for favors - Free man in Paris” that surfs me in to shore... ...Just in time to hit the urban streets with the ghost of Charlie Mingus and the DJ stylings of Mood Swings and PM Dawn in “I’se a Muggin.’” Prince Be introduces us to his “joint,” his loop sampled from the Mingus album: “I’se a muggin’, bee bop a do da...” I really couldn’t catch much of the lyrics on this one, but the beat and syncopation they issued forth put me back into the world of DC. By this time I was down on 18th and M street checking out a man in the middle of the busy intersection selling roses for a children’s charity. It was a surreal vision because he seemed to be dancing and swaying with the rap and rhymes being sent through my ears. When they got to their quote about “The sound of the man working on the chain gang” the DC rose vendor made a sale and spun in a circle, gave the thumbs up “right on” gesture and then danced out of the intersection, thanking and blessing cars as he went and then eased on down the road. He disappeared around the corner just as Prince Be said, “We love you Joni!” I couldn’t stop giggling at the beauty of the moment. People around me must have thought I was a lunatic. (I hope so, it’ll do them some good.) “I’m not even gonna tell you who’s comin’ on next...” ps. I've noticed that majordomo.etc...doesn't like to translate my punctuation when I transfer it from Microsoft Word... Does anyone have any sugestions to remedy this situation? Julian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 09:00:44 -0500 From: James Leahy Subject: Kennedy does Joni I heard a lovely interpretation of Urge for Going on CBC radio last night. It was by Kennedy (violinist Nigel Kennedy) from his new album Classics, a collection of interpretations of Kennedy's favourite pop and classical pieces. The weird beauty of Joni's melody really comes through. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 09:27:00 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Julian's Joni's Jazz #2 Julian51469@aol.com wrote: > Julian’s Joni’s Jazz Part Two > > “I’m not even gonna tell you who’s comin’ on next...* > > ps. I've noticed that majordomo.etc...doesn't like to translate my > punctuation when I transfer it from Microsoft Word... Does anyone have any > sugestions to remedy this situation? Instead of saving as a Word Document, save as a text only file. That should solve the problem. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:18:41 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Kirk Gray Subject: Joni dream hi everyone. i've been a bit MIA, but as usual, enjoy thoroughly the quality of mind and debate on this list. now, i have a friend who maintains that in general there is nothing more tedious than hearing someone relate a dream they had, and USUALLY i agree with her. but i had such a wonderful, strange, "realistic" dream about joni that i'm coming first to the computer to write you folks about it. not many other people i know would understand why i'm left so happy this morning! well, i don't know if everyone has heard about this current event, but in new york city we've had a huge controversy about the brooklyn museum of art's "sensation" exhibition (new british artists) which our idiotic mayor (sorry, can't be impartial about giuliani) is trying to shut down because he claims many people including himself find the show "offensive." although i haven't been to see this show yet, it's been on my mind (well, you can hardly escape the publicity and news about it) -- as has the general threat to arts in our country. so last night i dreamed i was walking through brooklyn near the park where i live and sort of near the museum and i saw joni walking ahead of me, watching the protestors outside the exhibit. i freaked out (that's the realistic part) and went up to her, asking if she saw the show. she said no, but she didn't need to. and she said "they say it's offensive." i told her i heard, and i couldn't believe someone would put that simplistic moral tag on art. and she said, no it SHOULD be offensive, she said: "art is always supposed to offend. "offensive" doesn't mean more than just looking at something differently." i sort of pondered this and she was looking at the protestors saying "they think it's all supposed to be pretty!" and joni started laughing really hard, as if that was the best joke she ever heard and i tried to laugh with her but she started to walk away. and in my dream then i was crying (maybe in my sleep too), thinking i missed a chance to tell her that SHE is the artist who means most to me... by the way, although she looked like she does now, she was wearing the yellow dress she wore at the isle of wight concert (a documentary, "Message to Love", that i worship!) OK, sorry for that -- now that i've written it out, i'm thinking, how boring for everyone! but i have to say, i feel special this morning. i think i'm going to take this dream as a reminder of how deeply art (in all forms) is rooted inside me; maybe as my deepest "priority." i like how my subconscious knows that using joni as the messenger will make me pay attention! do others dream about joni, or have you all, i wonder? (please tell me i'm not the only one -- i'll feel dumb.) i hope you guys are all well! cheers. -- emily ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:49:34 EST From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni dream In a message dated 11/1/1999 9:29:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, ekg200@is5.nyu.edu writes: << she said "they say it's offensive." i told her i heard, and i couldn't believe someone would put that simplistic moral tag on art. and she said, no it SHOULD be offensive, she said: "art is always supposed to offend. "offensive" doesn't mean more than just looking at something differently." >> Emily, That is truly a remarkable dream. If you think of offensive as a way to make one re-think and forcing oneself to let go of preconceived notions of what is beautiful, etc., then it could be a way for one's "ego" to be, indeed, offended. This is in Freudian terms, I suppose. Yes, I've had dreams of Joni- ones that evoked strong emotions of mainly wishes to meet/know her- but yours truly goes beyond the scope of that. Thanks for sharing! Terry aka Dr. SigMondegreen who is too blown away to remember his accent ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 12:07:00 -0600 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - November 1 1972: Joni performs at the Troubadour in Los Angeles. 1996 Joni is honored by her native Canada by receiving the prestigious Governor General's Award in a ceremony in Ottawa. - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 11:58:00 -0600 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - October 31 1970: Matthews Southern Comfort tops the UK chart with their version of "Woodstock". 1976: Dressed as Art Nouveau, the character who graces the cover of Don Juan's Reckless Daughter - Joni hits the Halloween party scene! Check out a picture in this article: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/78crcs.htm or here: http://www.jonimitchell.com/ArtNouveau76.html 1985: Joni appears on Good Morning America - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 12:07:00 -0600 From: This Month in Joni History Subject: This Month in Joni History - November November: 1973: Nazareth's version of "This Flight Tonight" reaches #11 in the UK. 1974: The album "Miles of Aisles" released 1975: The album "The Hissing of Summer Lawns" released 1985: "Dog Eat Dog" peaks at #57 in the UK. 1996: This month's Mojo magazine features an article about Joni and the Hits/Misses releases stating: "From fey innocence to worldly sophistication, from the hits to the misses, two compilations reveal that Joni Mitchell boasts several more dimensions than her imitators." Read the full article at: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/revbsn.htm - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:27:25 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Gene Shay & The Tinkers (NJC) Many of you will remember DJ Gene Shay, whose Joni tribute with lots of interview and live performance tapes is on one of the early tape trees. I was humbled and touched to see this on the FolkDJ-List this AM: Shaylist, 10/31/99 Sunday, 4 -8 PM 88.5 WXPN Philadelphia 88.1 WXPH Harrisburg 90.5 WKHS Worton/Baltimore 104.9 Lehigh Valley ... The Tinker's Own/The Bergen-An Buachaillin Ban Medley/ Bending The Banshee's Ear/self ..... Say AMEN! somebody.... ######################################################### Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ (Website under construction!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:45:56 EST From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Tapes, postage, etc. (NJC) In a message dated 10/31/1999 4:59:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << min. cassettes? Is it because I live in the boonies? I can find 100 > min cassettes, but have yet to run into a 110 min. tape. >> Evian, Gina and all those who are having trouble finding these supplies locally - I found a wonderful online place awhile back called Cassette House at http://www.tape.com/ >> Thanks so much for the tip, Kakki! This method of obtaining 110 min. tapes should simply things quite a bit! Take care, Gina NP: 10 cent wings (I've played it all weekend and I like it more and more - it really *is* a great record...thanks Terry, Brian and all you other Jonatha fans on the list...your enthusiastic posts were catchy!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:36:21 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Racial Slurs (long) In a message dated 11/1/1999 7:41:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, messling@enter.net writes: << I'm late getting into this discussion, and missed lots of posts due to being away, but I always assumed the Great White Wonder was Joni herself, and Tar Baby was a black man with whom she was involved. In other words, these phrases were less social commentary and more private jokes. I have trouble discerning any social commentary in "Dreamland." It's all imagery. >> I do agree. I think Joni just tells it ...period. If people get offended then they need to lighten up.....her words paint a picture... Catgirl thinking about these lines....Petrified wood process Tall timber down to rock.....what a visual..... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 10:09:21 -0800 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Urge for going (guitar chords) howard graciously took the time to write: >I hope we can come to an agreement on the chords for Urge for going here. Two things I think need to be stressed: 1) It's *very* useful to have the chord shapes written out when quoting the songs. That way we can be sure what chord shapes we are talking about. 2) It seems that we are actually referring to *different* versions of the song. What pat wrote is how he remembers Joni teaching it to him. Who's to say that the recorded version that most of us know is the same as this? I don't think it is - because the chords he has given for the chorus are very different. The chords for the recorded version (from the "Hits" CD) of the chorus are essentially: G D A and I get the urge for going ... pat wrote them as: C D Amaj7 So the version Joni showed him must have been different. This wouldn't surprise me - early versions of "Little Green" had different chords, and recent live performances show Joni changing the chords to songs like "Amelia" and "Just like this train". So PLEASE remember, we are talking about different versions of the song, so no wonder the chords don't match! There are accurate chords and tablature for the Hits Cd version of Urge available from the Hits songbook. As I remember, the tuning is given as standard, and the book's version for this song looked and sounded fine to me. Also, just to clarify pat's explanation: also, what I'm referring to here as an 'Amaj7 & Gmaj7' is a 3-finger Fmaj7 position moved up to 5 & 3, respectively... hope that's clear enough) This is a bit confusing, but essentially pat's Amaj7 is an A (x07650) and pat's Gmaj7 is a G6/A (x05430). These are actually the same chord shapes as given on the jmdl site. Just to summarise: pat's chords are no doubt fine for playing the version of Urge that Joni showed him, but to play the *recorded* version, you need different chords. The ones from the Hits songbook or the ones on the jmdl site are fine for this.> howard, after reading this I browsed your page on the JMDL guitar site and obviously you have mastered the skill of Joni's guitar tabbing and, were I inclined to spend the time it would take to learn it, I'm sure I could communicate these chords a lot better... unfortunately, I'm not. (ie: I don't know how to do 'chord shapes' nor do I intend to learn) having hardly touched a guitar in the last 25yrs, and with a smashed knuckle on my right hand which has permanently changed the angle of a couple of my fingers and a blocked ulnar nerve affecting my left hand, I'm afraid I have no interest in lessons of any kind... however I do appreciate your additional comments on my post and your 'clarifying' my rather clumsy explanation, especially if it can help someone who wants to learn. I am, however, somewhat confused by your comments in reference to the "Hits CD version" and the published chords. can I ask a question? did you try the chords I posted? of the few songs Joni taught me, I have never seen any of them faithfully represented in any songbook. I may not be able to articulate tab as well as you and I seriously doubt that few can and it's true that memory fails sometimes when it comes to cognitive facts, but I assure you, my hands remember. for example, you wrote: "The chords for the recorded version (from the "Hits" CD) of the chorus are essentially: G D A and I get the urge for going ... pat wrote them as: C D Amaj7 So the version Joni showed him must have been different." again, I would ask... did you try these chords. if those are the chords in the Hits songbook, I wonder where they, whoever they are, got them. they're wrong, plain and simple. furthermore, if played along with the Hits CD, the chords I posted are exactly what she plays... she never changed this song. "There are accurate chords and tablature for the Hits Cd version of Urge available from the Hits songbook." who says they are accurate? you can go back through songbook after songbook and find gobs of Joni's songs chorded innaccurately, mostly because the publishers didn't know what to do with tunings. "As I remember, the tuning is given as standard, and the book's version for this song looked and sounded fine to me." as I have stated emphatically more than once, this song was not written in standard tuning but with a drop D. I'm not lying. and finally: "pat's chords are no doubt fine for playing the version of Urge that Joni showed him, but to play the *recorded* version, you need different chords. The ones from the Hits songbook or the ones on the jmdl site are fine for this." I'm sorry howard, but this makes absolutely no sense at all. it seems that, in a very carefully worded way, you are attempting to cast doubt upon the authenticity of my post. if so, you're just gonna shoot yourself in the foot and all I can say is the proof is in the pudding. *play it* and see! the way she wrote it is the way she taught it to me and it's the same way she plays it on the '*recorded*' version! if you recall I originally made my post in response to listers who'd told me that they didn't play this song because the chords they had for it didn't sound right... so I posted the right ones. I may not be able to communicate 'chord shapes' like you and others can but I can play this song exactly as it was written. isn't that what you want? pat ps - hasn't anyone tried playing this? Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:07:00 -0600 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - November 2 1980: The Los Angeles Times publishes a review of the "Shadows and Light" album today, saying "Her version of Lymon's "Why Do Fools Fall in Love?" is spirited but ragged in a way that suggests you had to be there to fully appreciate it. That pretty much sums up the album as a whole: The music is pleasant enough while the record is playing, but it just drifts away when the needle rises from the turntable." Read on at: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/latimes801102.htm - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 13:44:10 -0600 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Urge for going (guitar chords) Howard first wrote: >>>> "The chords for the recorded version (from the "Hits" CD) of the chorus are >>>> essentially: >>>> G D A >>>> and I get the urge for going ... >>>> pat wrote them as: C D Amaj7 >>>> So the version Joni showed him must have been different." Then Pat wrote: >>> again, I would ask... did you try these chords. if those are the chords in >>> the Hits songbook, I wonder where they, whoever they are, got them. they're >>> wrong, plain and simple. furthermore, if played along with the Hits CD, the >>> chords I posted are exactly what she plays... she never changed this song. I personally did not try them because I know that the one transcribed in the Hits songbook (and therefore, the song that was put on Hits) is correct-the shapes are very simple compared to alternate tuning chords. We have heard Joni tune up to standard tuning (EADGBe - can we at least agree that THAT is standard tuning!?!? :-D) when she played this song live. I know many people have noted that the transcriptions in the Hits and Misses songbooks are incorrect in many places, but I think we have to realize that UFG was transcribed by someone for OLGA-and as I remember those shapes on that page are the same as the one in the Hits songbook. By the way, Pat, how did you get the chords that you posted here? If you haven't played guitar in 25 years, then what makes you say that Howard and the Hits transcription are wrong? Pat writes again: >>> "As I remember, the tuning is given as standard, and the book's version for >>> this song looked and sounded fine to me." >>> as I have stated emphatically more than once, this song was not written in >>> standard tuning but with a drop D. I'm not lying. I may have to listen to the song again to hear that drop D-did we come to the conclusion that there is still a capo on the third fret? In that case, it would be an F you would hear. and... >>> "pat's chords are no doubt fine for playing the version of Urge that Joni >>> showed him, but to play the *recorded* version, you need different chords. >>> The ones from the Hits songbook or the ones on the jmdl site are fine for >>> this." I'm sorry howard, but this makes absolutely no sense at all. it seems >>> that, in a very carefully worded way, you are attempting to cast doubt upon >>> the authenticity of my post. if so, you're just gonna shoot yourself in the >>> foot and all I can say is the proof is in the pudding. *play it* and see! >>> the way she wrote it is the way she taught it to me and it's the same way >>> she plays it on the '*recorded*' version! if you recall I originally made my >>> post in response to listers who'd told me that they didn't play this song >>> because the chords they had for it didn't sound right... so I posted the >>> right ones. I may not be able to communicate 'chord shapes' like you and >>> others can but I can play this song exactly as it was written. isn't that >>> what you want? Howard has been transcribing songs for years now, and in my opinion his works are extremely correct. I think we should note again that Joni has played songs differently from time to time, and in the case of UFG, both the alternate Blue and Hits have the same version. NP-Joni's Jazz ___________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua | | ICQ: 21619464 AIM: CalifKitch | |_________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:54:04 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Grace! NJC In a message dated 30/10/99 23:06:21 GMT Standard Time, MDESTE1@aol.com writes: << "I hope I die before I get old" Peter Townshend. My generation. "Dont trust anyone over thirty", Abbie Hoffman, 1968 >> "Hope we grow up before we get old" - Loudon Wainwright III ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 20:10:05 +0000 From: Martin Giles Subject: Re: Almost (Did) Cut Our Hair (absolutely NJC) Hi Colin Sometimes it takes another person to say something, to realize the blindingly obvious. Whenever the question do you feel English or British comes up, I puzzle for a while and usually (though not always) say, "On the whole English." Though I never really believed it. The blindingly obvious truth is that I don't feel anything. It took you saying that of yourself for me to realize! Like you, I was born in Reading, and moved (in my case to Portsmouth) at an early age. Then (like you) to Singapore for three years and back to Portsmouth again at the age of nine. Since then I have moved to London and lived in five places around town. I haven't had anything like the disruption you have had, but I think that leaving England/Britain/UK for three years when I was quite young broke the tie that a lot of people have with the country of their birth. You say: > There are people I know who have lived in the one area all their lives, know the > people they were at school with etc. i find that weird. I find that parochialism (SP?) weird too. I think it might contribute to fear/hatred of 'others'. Isn't there a language where the word for 'stranger' is the same as the word for 'enemy'? I have also found that I have lost contact with all but two of my senior school friends over the years, because I moved away and most of them stayed where they were. > But I got to see lots of the world and different cultures. I think this helped > me be non judgemental about people of different colour/race/nations. Yep. > I certainly know I hated always being the new kid and losing > friends and pets on a regualr basis. Nothing lasted. That must have been awful. I only had the one big wrench that affected me, which was when we returned from Singapore. I lost all my school friends and had to start all over again. Actually, shortly after that we did our eleven+ exams, and I went to one senior school while most of my good friends went to the other. Although we still lived quite close, our different daily lives soon meant that we had less and less in common, and we grew apart. Anyway, Colin thanks for sorting out a little problem for me. I'm not English or British, I'm neither, and proud of it!! Martin. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:16:08 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Racial Slurs (long) Debra wrote: > >>> SO TO THE JONI CONTENT: How could Joni use the name Tar Baby in > Dreamland? Surely someone back then let her know the hurtful connotations of > the name. MG wrote: > Maybe she is racist, maybe in the "name of art," she doesn't care or may > think she is exempt. I would wonder if as an artist, she may have a message > in the song or an image to convey that she felt was best illustrated with > racists words from "Tar Baby" to "Mooslems." I think that artistic and > personal statements are tricky things when employing the technique of irony > or absurdity. From the first time I listened to the song in late 1977, I saw many of the lyrics as assailing the historical exploitation of the "New World". I made the connection between Walter Raleigh and Chris Columbus (the "Great White Wonders") of their time conquering the new lands and exploiting the native people there. They owed a great deal of their success in conquering those lands and achieving supremacy and economic advantages to the African slaves they brought with them. The use of the word "tar baby" is an artistic allusion to the sub-human way these natives were regarded. I interpreted "Tar baby and the Great White Wonder talking over a glass of rum, burning on the inside with the knowledge of things to come" as meaning that the inequity in social station between the two had lessened enough to where they could now converse together over a drink, yet both of them burn on the inside with the cognizance that the inequities of history, (and by extension, racism) are still far from unresolved. I think another point to remember is that "free speech" in art is still a very recent phenomenon. Like it or not, Joni, especially as a "female" artist as recently as the late 70s, could not have easily gotten away with just laying all her perceptions out there, unadulterated, at that time. She still had to write in ciphers to a certain extent. I got what she meant because I am (gulp) of an older generation, who may be more accustomed to deciphering metaphorical meanings in poetry, lyrics or literature, where the artist at the time could not, because of social mores, come right out with the unvarnished truth. Another example that comes to mind are Joni's very early, "curlicue" love songs which are now looked back on by many, including herself, as quaint and dated. But the social mores at the time they were written did not leave much room for acceptance of love songs that told it like it is like Alanis Morisette or Madonna (to use more extreme examples) in the later day. The lyrics of Dreamland have to be considered in the time and the context in which they were written. Bob made the point of possibly some Catholics taking offense at the song "Magdalene Laundries" which got me thinking. As as Irish Catholic, I thought the song was brilliant and powerful. Her context is obvious to me and I know that she is not being bigoted against Catholics or the Irish. What would offend me, however, is if someone listened to that song and then used it as some kind of excuse to support their own bigoted anti-Catholic or anti-Irish views. But I would never think to lay the blame for that back on Joni for broaching the subject in the first place - obviously some people will always take words of another and twist them around to fit their own agenda. Kakki NP: CSNY - Deja Vu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:22:42 -0500 From: "Jean-Pierre Pellerin" Subject: Re:Tapes,postage,etc. (NJC) You may find them at Future Shop.I was able to have american stamps from a store selling collector stams. Jean-Pierre Pellerin > > Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 14:49:03 -0600 > From: evian > Subject: Tapes, postage, etc. (NJC) > > > You'll need (2) 110 minute cassettes > > > Ok, is it just me, or do others have a hell of a time finding 110 > min. cassettes? Is it because I live in the boonies? I can find 100 > min cassettes, but have yet to run into a 110 min. tape. Actually, I > talked to a friend in Calgary about this, and she said "Oh, that must be > a misprint, I've never heard of 110 mins." Canucks, tell me where the > hell to get these big-ass tapes! That's the reason I abandoned the tape > trees, because I just couldn't find the damn things. Also, another > thing that I need to address to Canadians -- How do you send SASE to > the States?? I asked at the post office, and this cranky woman said to > me "All I can give you is an international stamp thing" but she made it > sound like it was only for letters... so, since I am slow as a Billy-Bob > Thornton character, tell me how to go about this! > Happy Halloween y'all, > Evian > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 16:38:52 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Racial Slurs (long) SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/1/99 2:23:20 AM US Central Standard Time, > dsk11@bellatlantic.net writes: > > << How could Joni use the name Tar Baby in Dreamland? > Surely someone back then let her know the hurtful connotations of the name. > >> > > Debra, you make a good point, but by the same token, what if there are white > people who are offended by the phrase "Great White Wonder"? I imagine you > could go through Joni's songs and find lots of things to potentially offend > lots of people. But we automatically assume that "Great White Wonder" refers to a particular person, don't we? It's not a derogatory name that lots of white people have been called (at least not that I know of). And Magdalene Laundries probably did offend some people, but again, Joni's talking about a specific time and group of people, she's not bashing all Catholics. Even when she writes scornfully about lawyers, which I know from reading posts on this list is offensive to some people, I get the feeling she's referring to very particular lawyers. Joni can be critical, even judgmental, about people, including herself, but she's usually talking about a specific person, about his or her character and behavior, not about being a member of a certain group. > So should > Joni strive to write only lyrics that couldn't possibly offend somebody? I > certainly don't think so, ... And neither do I. > ...does Joni intend to > offend or is she trying to stimulate us into thought and discussion (like > this one, for instance)? Oh, I think Joni probably doesn't mind offending people, "tweaking their perceptions", and might even enjoy it. But to me she doesn't seem like a scornful hurtful person, which is why some things on DJRD stand out for me; they seem out of character for Joni. > I can GUARANTEE that she intended no racial offense > with anything on DJRD, ... I don't feel she did either. In fact, thinking about it, maybe DJRD is when she was falling in love with black culture, and she could do that without all of the concerns that Americans such as myself have. Maybe SHE'S Tar Baby, since she's dressed herself as a black man on the cover. And "Great White Wonder" does somehow refer to Bob Dylan himself or bootleg tapes (as John Low previously mentioned), or, well, obviously I don't know... I want to believe that if someone HAD expressed to Joni how derogatory a term is, that she would have a good reason for using it, and it wouldn't be just for the purpose of hurting anyone. Debra Shea ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #490 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?