From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #483 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, October 28 1999 Volume 04 : Number 483 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: Almost (Did) Cut Our Hair (absolutely NJC) ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: How much, how often? ["Eric Taylor" ] Sharon Olds NJC ["P. Henry" ] RE: Otis and Marlena - a question [Jamie Zubairi ] Re: Grahaem / Gram NJC [catman ] Re: How much, how often? [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Re: Joni's Chrono Lovelives [Ginamu@aol.com] RE: Does Joni influence your life too much? [Anne Sandstrom ] Re: Grahaem / Gram NJC [Ter] Re: Dreamland. Discuss [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Grahaem / Gram NJC [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Re: How much, how often? [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Does Joni influence your life too much? [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Does Joni influence your life too much? [Susan McNamara ] Being Irish - NJC ["Lori REASON"] Re: How much, how often? ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: $ in Mattress - NJC ["Catherine McKay" ] RE: how much, how often? [Susan McNamara ] Re: hair & moustaches & O&M [Bounced Message ] Re: Rufus Beer [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Being Irish - NJC ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: JMDL Digest V4 #482 [Ladygrammy@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 04:14:35 -0400 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: RE: Almost (Did) Cut Our Hair (absolutely NJC) Harper Lou observed: << Observation -- it even happens on the Joni Mitchell list... Did you ever notice how quick Irish people are to talk about our Irishness? As soon as the subject comes up, people claim their Erin blood. (Especially those black Irish ones!) >> Well I was certainly pleased to learn of my Irish-Spanish-Hebrew-Cherokee roots at my father's wake in 1985! Until then I just assumed that I was pure Angelo-Saxon, prone to hip dysplacia.... A proud mutt, E.T. NP: A Chair In The Sky ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 04:51:36 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Dreamland. Discuss Louis Lynch wrote: > ...I never thought of "Dreamland" as a musing at > all. It seems very real and alive -- a vivid personal experience. It > sounds to me as if she is attending some kind of festival or party, possibly > a Carnival. I think it's a specific experience, too; namely Mardi Gras (called Carnivale?) in Brazil since Joni mentions a samba beat, the Amazon, trade winds from Africa and that it's a long, long way from Canada. "All saints, all sinners shining, heed those trumpets all night long" also makes me think of a Mardi Gras celebration. It would be in February or early March so it would be warm in Brazil (I think) and still snowy in Canada. And, from what I see in TV news reports, the Brazilian celebration is an extremely exuberant party-time (even "wilder" than New Orleans). To me Dreamland is very playful and mischievous and in a lighthearted way makes fun of the visitors, the "suntan slaves", who need to protect themselves ("I wrapped that flag around me") to try and be comfortable in this African-influenced culture. It's interesting how differently people on this list can see things. Some specifics: Patricia wrote: I don't think Joni meant the use of the name Tar Baby as a racial slur. As critical as she is sometimes, I can't think of a time where she talks in a disparaging way about anyone's skin color. To me she's using it as another reference to the African influence in the culture she's visiting. And also as someone the other person is getting "stuck on". Tar Baby comes from the "Uncle Remus" stories, which are folk tales originally from Africa and collected in the late 1800s by Joel Chandler Harris. The stories are animal fables, with Brer Rabbit, Brer Fox and other animals always trying to outwit each other. In one of the stories, Brer Fox makes a "contraption" covered with tar that he calls a Tar Baby. Brer Rabbit then comes along and, being a hot-headed character, he ends up getting hands, feet and head stuck on the Tar Baby, with Brer Fox nearby laughing. As a kid, I loved these stories and Uncle Remus, who was a very kind character created by Harris to tie the stories together. In the 70s/80s (maybe earlier and I wasn't aware of it) the stories were highly criticized as being racist, mostly because of the Uncle Remus character who spoke in a very heavy dialect and the fact that he was a former slave telling the stories to a little white boy. But the animals were always the active characters, and I've seen the stories republished without Uncle Remus as narrator. Recently I saw a CD of Danny Glover doing "The Wonderful Tar Baby Story" with Taj Mahal, which makes me think the stories have been fully resurrected. They are very clever, funny stories. My guess is that Joni knew about these stories as a child and draws the name Tar Baby from this benign source. I've never read _Tar Baby_ by Toni Morrison, which came out in the early 80s, after DJRD, but have read that she considers the name Tar Baby to be a racial slur, so I have to pay attention to that. I'm curious about whether it's tied to the Uncle Remus stories and how they're viewed, or whether the name has taken on (or always had) a life of its own. Mark writes: Tar Baby & the Great White Wonder are both derogatory terms that describe how each of the two characters in question really feels about the other. Both are burning on the inside with resentment & hate & contemplating the eventual clash that they are both certain will inevitably come. Whoa, I thought they were burning on the inside with passion; this seems like a mutual seduction scene to me, "as they lean toward temptation". I don't get the feeling anywhere in this song that a hateful clash is going to happen; the visitors are just there temporarily and never completely comfortable (ha! Raleigh and Columbus were NOT completely successful). So the visitors leave. And from the comfort of their recliner, remember how pleasant it was (ah, dreamland). Which is where I'm about to be, for real, 'night, y'all, Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 03:05:51 -0400 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: How much, how often? Jason ponders: "how much Joni do you all listen to?" expounding: << ....as thread upon thread of lyric/song/album-related topics or snippets appear on the JMDL, I am continually amazed at the vast wealth of apparently instantly-accessible knowledge so many of you possess on all things Joni. Is it derived from so many years of endless repeated listenings?.... >> I think you hit the nail right on the head, Jason! Of all the music I've loved & played over & over since I bought my first album in 1965 (*Here Come The Beetles*) Joni is the only one I still listen to on a semi-daily basis. Yet I don't profess to be an expert on Joni trivia. I still have yet to hear ONE Joni bootleg (but tomorrow I anticipate the HOSL Demo & Tape Tree 8 on CD thanx to this list)! Psyched! E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 02:46:10 -0800 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Sharon Olds NJC gina wrote: ...and here's some proof. wow! http://acker.cwrl.utexas.edu/slatin/olds/olds.html http://www.northshore.net/homepages/hope/engOlds.html http://www.albany.edu/writers-inst/olds.html pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:31:22 +0100 From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: RE: Otis and Marlena - a question Dear Patricia, I have never seen O&M as an anti-semitic song. Coming from a Islamic backgroud myself, I found the references to Muslims sticking up Washington to be appropriately juxtaposed next to the images of these people enjoying themselves. I thought I would hear a anti-Islam in the song, but it isn't actually anti Islam. I see Otis and Marlena to be ciphers a type of person. Not Don and Joni. I believe she was in Miami, cooling her heels after her breakup with John Guerin, before the Hejira trip, before meeting with Jaco and the rest of Weather report. Otis, is black, granted. Marlena, is white and probably of the blonde and rich variety, yes. I saw it more of a Driving Miss Daisy situation. It was more of a statement on the relationship between Marlena, privileged and a socialite, while Otis is kept in the background, below stairs, as one would say in England. The repetition of Muslims sticking up Washington doesn't indicate any race to be compared with. The statement is both flippant and cutting. It talks about the political situation hundreds of miles away (And this was a real situation, I was sent a post about it last year when O&M was being discussed) (Tangentially, I can't believe I missed Don't Interrupt The Sorrow discussion.I will have to look up the thread), compared to merely the rich and vain (The golden dive the fatted flake). I think it's really pushing it to get any anti anything-other-than-it-is. Not about race. About class and strata of society. Thus endeth the lesson. Jamie Zubairi PS Is someone going to tell Eric that it's Joni as the black man on the DJRD cover, or shall I? - ---------- Patricia wrote Eric wrote: > I've always thought this song was about a Jewish couple like Mr & Mrs >Seinfeld or Fran's mom from The Nanny. But then I've recently wondered if >Otis could be the Black man who appears on the DJRD cover. I have *always*, from my very first listen on the day DJRD was released, heard anti-semitism in this song. Why elderly Jews and not simply elderly people of any creed? Because of the consistant duality in Joni's lyrics, (nowhere more evident than on DJRD) I heard the "they" in "They've come for fun and sun" as a play against the Muslims sticking up Washington. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:55:56 +0100 From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: RE: Does Joni influence your life too much? Harper Lou said "I think you're putting too many slurs in there. Your singing reminds me of what Joni Mitchell does -- it's too modern sounding." Has this ever happened to any of you artists, poets, musicians, or dreamers out there? When I was at drama school I had to sing 'Blue' for a recital (hey, that's entertainment) and the pianist after the show said, apart from the octave difference, that was phrased like Joni would. Is there a cure? There is no cure. Once diagnosed, you will have Mitchellitis for life. Usually a terminal condition and affects the whole body and spirit. Not to be confused with the superficial form of the disease. It's called ' I don't know her music but I like that song Big Yellow Taxi' ;-) Much Joni Always Jamie Zubairi Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:28:07 +0100 From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: RE: Does Joni influence your life too much? Harper Lou asked: > But does Ms. Mitchell have a dominant influence over your art or music, your > outlook on people, the way you handle things, etc.? Kakki Wrote Like Wally, I don't feel that Joni has influenced my general outlook or the way I handle things in my life. For me, it was that she always seemed to be saying in her songs what was already in my mind/heart/soul and so I felt an instant and very strong affinity with her. Even some of the stages she went through (as reflected in her albums) seemed to mirror in many ways what I was experiencing at the time. Every so often I would read something Joni said, perhaps it would be an indication of an attitude she had towards something, and for a coupla weeks I would try it on like a jacket to see if that attitude fit. Most of the times it wouldn't. Oh, y'know, I'm still growing as a person etc etc etc and you have to try these things, experiment. See how far you can go with it. Now that's a thing she has done. A taste for experimentation and seeing how far I can take things. Even if it makes me play devils avocado with a situation. Has she influenced my taste in music? Yes. I now listen to Marvin Gaye and Herbie Hancock and Mingus. I always listened to Billie and Ella and Edith and such the like, but knowing that Joan likes them too is all the more gravy. Crazy. Gravy. Much Joni as ever Jamie Zubairi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 13:40:40 +0100 From: "Ross, Les" Subject: RE: Joni's Chrono Lovelives Hi everybody! Sneaking out of the background after a couple of weeks perusing the Joni Digest. Trying to catch a thread isn't so easy when they appear to have been running for a while. Anyway, I'm a little phased by the interest in Joni's lovers and their supposed bearing on the content of her work. I take a clue from Joni's position as a Painter. I studied art at college for some years and one of the main features of that time was the absolute necessity to keep sketch books to hand in order that ideas be scribbled down etc etc. Taking these noodles and doodles forward into finished works quite often meant that they bore little resemblance to the ideas in their original form. We all know and wonder about the journals the divine Ms M has maintained all her life. What I'd trade to get a look at those to see the mind of such an artist at work.....but I digress. When I first heard the recorded version of Two Grey Rooms ( I have a rather dog-eared a cappella version recorded from a BBC Radio Interview JM did around the time of WTRF) I imagined JM as the person in the room. It was wonderful to hear about the real story behind it being from something she read in the Fassbinder biog. The story was noble and rich in pathos - my favourite meal,.....but inclines me to dyspepsia! But it still took the song a little further away from me. Selfish, I know, but true. You see, I too had a 'Two Grey Rooms' experience. All together now.....haven't we all! I have to profess indifference to the who's and when's of JMs love life if for no other reason than the greater liklihood of taking away from me that which I find personal and connecting about her songs. Certainly there is bound to be a curiosity abroad but I think that the 'real meat' behind a song restricts the imagination once it is exposed. I know that H and THOSL got me through my teenage years with music and certain lyrics that produced in me an almost 'tuning-fork' like reaction. (Those gooseflesh momentsssssss). But I can remember the lyric content especially being analogous for me. That was important then and is now. The detail and origin much less of a consideration. I think for all of us it is the pointers or key moments in her words and music that make them special to us as listeners. Imagine, if you will, that we found out that a favourite song was borne out of a smooch JM was having with someone we thought was a bit of toe-rag now. Bleuch! - Come on now, we've all been there! Something in the way that painting and 'unlyriced' music can offer impressions, so too do the lyrics of JMs work for me. They are like paintings in themselves. Couplets that allow the imagination to run away. I think I prefer it that way. The cost of knowledge is having to deal with it. It's your call. Les ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 13:59:15 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Grahaem / Gram NJC Here we pronouince graham as Gray-um. Wally Kairuz wrote: > i think that they're both alternative pronunciations for the same name. i've > heard users of different varieties of english pronounce "graham greene" as > "gram green" and "GRAY-am green". Is it a british/american thing? RP > speakers definitely say "GRAY-am". > wallyk > > De: michael > Para: > Enviado: Jueves 28 de Octubre de 1999 03:01 > Asunto: Grahaem / Gram NJC > > > Hi All > > I have been wondering for a while about this. > > Does the personal name Grahaem ,pronounced(grayem) exist in the USA? > > I have heard the name Gram quite a bit but never heard the name Grahaem > > used.Has Gram replaced Grahaem or are both names used ? > > Cheers > > Michael > > > > > > -- > > > > http://www.coolgold.com.au/~michaelb/index.html > > michaelb@coolgold.com.au > > > > > > Either we are alone in the universe > > > > ...........Or we're not............ > > > > > > - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:19:08 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: How much, how often? Jason asks: <> I try to listen to as much Joni as I can; after all, 7 days without Joni makes one weak! :~) I generally always have at least 1 Joni in the 10-disc changer in the car, and of course love to bring it to work and play it too...looking forward to making new converts at my new job - maybe we can get them to play Joni over the speakers in the kayak factory! And at home, I play the discs and tapes as much as I can without getting too much rolling of eyes from wife & son. Headphones also come in handy! And of course, Slutty me always has plenty of other artists in rotation as well... << I'm guessing Mingus may not fare too well in the latter category >> Well, you wouldn't know it by me...I'd say I spin that one as much as any other; maybe more so since there's still LOTS of undiscovered treasure on it for me. <> Besides the Tape Tree interviews, which are very enlightening, there's always the web sites which are a seemingly unending source of information...as far as retaining it, Joni is a love, so I absorb all the information like a sponge, not like studying for some silly history test in school where you regurgitate some information and then quickly try to erase it to make room for more pop music trivia! Bob NP: "Twisted", Hendricks & Ross, from Joni's Jazz which I just got yesterday - Thanks Jerry! My review will follow later today! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:28:51 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's Chrono Lovelives In a message dated 10/28/1999 8:43:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk writes: << Anyway, I'm a little phased by the interest in Joni's lovers and their supposed bearing on the content of her work. I take a clue from Joni's position as a Painter. I studied art at college for some years and one of the main features of that time was the absolute necessity to keep sketch books to hand in order that ideas be scribbled down etc etc. Taking these noodles and doodles forward into finished works quite often meant that they bore little resemblance to the ideas in their original form. We all know and wonder about the journals the divine Ms M has maintained all her life. What I'd trade to get a look at those to see the mind of such an artist at work.....but I digress. When I first heard the recorded version of Two Grey Rooms ( I have a rather dog-eared a cappella version recorded from a BBC Radio Interview JM did around the time of WTRF) I imagined JM as the person in the room. It was wonderful to hear about the real story behind it being from something she read in the Fassbinder biog. The story was noble and rich in pathos - my favourite meal,.....but inclines me to dyspepsia! But it still took the song a little further away from me. Selfish, I know, but true. You see, I too had a 'Two Grey Rooms' experience. All together now.....haven't we all! >> Thanks for such a lively, thoughtful and beautifully written post! You expressed so well what I feel and have been unable to express here without ruffling feathers. I wish I had your writing talent. Since I don't, I'm simply grateful to be able to read your thoughts. And welcome, by the way! Take care, Gina NP: Into The Great Wide Open - Tom Petty ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:36:55 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: RE: Does Joni influence your life too much? But Wally - do you have any idea how much COURAGE it takes to be original. And you are - unique and intelligent, graceful and emotionally accessible. I applaud and really like you for that. Anne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:41:24 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: RE: Joni's Chrono Lovelives Les de-lurks: <> Welcome Les! Thanks for stepping up and offering a great post, keep them coming! As for catching a thread, it's also a lot easier if you're on the List as opposed to the Digest, but you can enjoy the Digest as well, I did for a long time before I just had to take the plunge...it's a big difference! Bob NP: Toshi Reagon, "Trouble Child" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:48:07 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: RE: How much, how often? Hi Jason. You asked <> I started listening to Joni 31 years ago. I was 12 at the time - and I listened so much, I memorized all her songs. For me, there was Joni, and then there was everyone else in a blur. I've also performed a number of her songs, and in doing so, have learned more about them than listening allows. I realized the other day (when I quoted a Joni song, unbeknownst to the person I was with) that I've probably inhaled her work the way some people memorize the bible. So, it's not a conscious thing, like Bob said - it's not like studying for a test. And I do go through phases where I don't listen quite as often. But scarcely a day goes by without some Joni. Anne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:47:00 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Grahaem / Gram NJC In a message dated 10/28/1999 2:17:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, wallykai@interserver.com.ar writes: << i've heard users of different varieties of english pronounce "graham greene" as "gram green" and "GRAY-am green". Is it a british/american thing? RP speakers definitely say "GRAY-am". >> Here, in the US midwest, Graham is a relatively rare name. I've only heard it pronounced as "Gram". Terry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:41:57 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Dreamland. Discuss In a message dated 10/28/1999 4:55:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dsk11@bellatlantic.net writes: << I don't think Joni meant the use of the name Tar Baby as a racial slur. As critical as she is sometimes, I can't think of a time where she talks in a disparaging way about anyone's skin color. To me she's using it as another reference to the African influence in the culture she's visiting. And also as someone the other person is getting "stuck on". >> The Black-American novelist Toni Morrison wrote an early novel called Tar Baby. I hardly think that *she* was being racist. I don't think that Joni's use of it is any more or less racist than that. Gina NP: Mary Jane's Last Dance - Tom Petty from greatest hits ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:52:04 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: Grahaem / Gram NJC Our "used-to-be" neighbors had a son named Graham who was my son's best friend at the time, and the guy who does my financial planning is named Graham as well. Not the most popular American name, but like Ian, it seems to be growing in usage. Bob NP: Carl Hancock Rux & Dean Bowman, "Jungle Line" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:55:34 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: How much, how often? In a message dated 10/28/1999 4:57:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ewwtaylor@adelphia.net writes: << Of all the music I've loved & played over & over since I bought my first album in 1965 (*Here Come The Beetles*) Joni is the only one I still listen to on a semi-daily basis. Yet I don't profess to be an expert on Joni trivia. I still have yet to hear ONE Joni bootleg (but tomorrow I anticipate the HOSL Demo & Tape Tree 8 on CD thanx to this list)! Psyched! E.T. >> I listen to Joni almost daily also; mostly in the car on the half hour commute to work and on the boombox on my night table, just before falling asleep. The rest of the day I am fully immersed in work, my children, my friends. I usually also program the alarm on the boombox to play Joni every morning at 6 a.m. (though someitmes I deviate from that routine...this morning it was Suzanne Vega's first album). And like Eric, whatever trivia I know about her is secondary to the emotional and intellectual substance her work brings to my life daily and has for 23 years. I really value her work in terms of how it fits my thoughts and feelings and perspectives. It's a very personal and private experience. Her work has enriched and enlarged my thinking so in that way I would consider her an influence. Take care, Gina NP: American Girl (back to the beginning) Tom Petty and The Heartbreakers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:59:18 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Does Joni influence your life too much? In a message dated 10/28/1999 7:07:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jaz@famelon.demon.co.uk writes: << There is no cure. Once diagnosed, you will have Mitchellitis for life. Usually a terminal condition and affects the whole body and spirit. Not to be confused with the superficial form of the disease. It's called ' I don't know her music but I like that song Big Yellow Taxi' ;-) Much Joni Always Jamie Zubairi >> Tee-hee. I like that, Jamie! : } Gina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:59:43 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Does Joni influence your life too much? Joni influences my life immensely. But not too much. The only time it gets too much is if I get preachy which I try to control. It's very hard not to when I get on a roll. Right now my best friend is starting a very exciting relationship and she keeps calling me up with these 'do you think this is the real thing' questions. Over the last two days, I've been constantly playing "Help Me" which usually I hate to play on guitar because the tuning is so wierd, but I've enjoyed playing it so much because of this theme of new love. Yesterday I was driving her home from work and she was talking about trying to control her feelings when she was with her new prince, and without even thinking I blurted out, "I'm a fool when love's at stake, because I can't conceal emotion, what I'm feeling's always written on my face!" I also emailed her the lyrics for "LOVE (Corinthians II)" and she freaked! (she is not a Joni fan at all). So subliminally I am channeling Joni, but my friend just thinks I'm the Warrior Princess of Love. Poor sap! And in true Joni style I have this horror of waiting for the other shoe to drop and this whole scene turning into "a portrait of a disappointment!" So that's how Joni is influencing my life this week. You're in my blood like holy wine, for God's sake. Take care, Sue ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ weekend email address: suemc16@webtv.net "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:02:55 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Does Joni influence your life...and E. Piaff In a message dated 10/28/1999 7:35:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jaz@famelon.demon.co.uk writes: << Yes. I now listen to Marvin Gaye and Herbie Hancock and Mingus. I always listened to Billie and Ella and Edith and such the like, but knowing that Joan likes them too is all the more gravy. Crazy. Gravy. Much Joni as ever >> Yes! Yes! Joni opened a new door for me into jazz! And now I'm more interested in Billie than I've ever been. And Edith Piaff I used to listen to when I was a child living in France (how the French adore her!) and I desperately need to get ahold of something on CD by her. Can anyone recommend something on CD? My parents, God bless them, got rid of all their old LPs, including Piaff's. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:10:59 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Does Joni influence your life too much? i had a real funny thing happen this week. i play with a group and we are writing and recording our own songs right now. i wrote a song and wrote two guitar parts for it and recorded them on a demo for the group to hear so they would get the feel of the song. when i did the first guitar part, i decided to use an electric guitar with some deep chorous and reverb. then, i typically use a flat pick but for some reason, i decided to just use my fingers. then i played with the switch to get the right mix of bass and treble. then, i played the leads over top with an acoustic. when i played back the song, because i was using my fingernails in a downward push on the rythem, with all the chorus, it sounded just like one of maybe six different joni songs from either ti or ttt. and last year i bitched about her repetitive use of the vg8. i said it had a pipe organ sound. well, that's what i created, unintentionally but quite instinctively. and i really love the way my piece came out. but it is totally joniesque and surely her influence. pat ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:17:33 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: How much, how often? Rarely does a day go by that I don't listen to Joni. I workout at the gym Mon-Fri. and I have my walkman with me listening to Joni exclusivley. I used to think I had to have loud dance music piercing my ear drum in order to have a decent workout, but since my little experiment with Joni's music a few months ago I have found that I *can* have a GREAT workout. On the weekend, I usually clean house to Joni's music, plus I always have at least one of her CD's in my car. Jimmy- who is tired from staying up late last night beading a halloween wig. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:17:52 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Does Joni influence your life...and E. Piaff (Now NJC) Ginamu@aol.com wrote: > And Edith Piaff I used to listen to > when I was a child living in France (how the French adore her!) and I > desperately need to get ahold of something on CD by her. Can anyone recommend > something on CD? My parents, God bless them, got rid of all their old LPs, > including Piaff's. I would suggest the new cd from the Legends of the 20th Century series. It will be out next Tuesday. Has an excellent collection of her songs on it. And there are 2 very fine box sets available. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 14:18:59 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: RE: Almost (Did) Cut Our Hair (absolutely NJC) >Did you ever notice how quick Irish people are to talk about our > >Irishness? You may be right, or it might be a bit of what you said later about noticing it more because... >As soon as the subject comes up, people claim their Erin blood. > >(Especially those black Irish ones!) A lot of people who aren't Irish claim it too especially on St Patrick's Day when the entire world seems to be Irish. It's very strange because we were talking about this at work the other day (I can't even remember how the subject came up but my workplace is like my family - anything and everything is up for discussion. It's a wonder we get any work at all, but I think, because of the nature of the work we do (writing letters in response to letters to a member of provincial parliament - it's a bit of a solitary job), every now and then we need to stand around and talk about any old thing at all. I maintain it gets the creative juices going - as if that would matter when you're a political flack!) Even Joni said it in "Lead Balloon" (which I always want to call Led Balloon, as in Zep) and I had no idea she was Irish at all. She's one of those Northern Irish/Presbyterian ones, so that doesn't count! ;) >Perhaps it's because I do mostly Irish gigs, but so many people HAVE >to >tell you that their great-great-grand-something came from >Ireland. I've >done Pennsylvania Dutch fairs, world music festivals, >even Jewish >weddings, and I don't recall people from other nations >doing that at all. I don't think it's specifically an Irish thing. I wonder if it's a bit of an inferiority complex that overcompensates for itself by coming out as a superiority complex, if you get what I mean? Maybe having come from years of repression, starvation and poverty in Ireland and having made it to North America, Australia and so on, without dying on the long journey over, and then fighting prejudice here up until not too long ago, (the signs saying "Irish need not apply"), they've come into their own. They're survivors and proud of it. In my family, just about everyone has a really warped sense of humour, which is, IMO, a very good vaccine against all kinds of ailments. It's happening with other ethnic groups too, as they throw off the bad feelings they've had about their ethnicity from when their families first arrived. I'm thinking about the Italians - we have many people of Italian background here in Toronto and I remember some of my schoolmates saying they felt inferior somehow because they didn't fit into the WASP norm which was the old Toronto (it was once known as Toronto the Good because it was just so WASP - I understand that back in the '40's or so, they used to close the playgrounds because it was the Lord's day and I guess you were supposed to be at home reading the Bible and thinking pure thoughts, rather than swinging on the swings and having fun - I don't know if that's true or not, but I'm glad I didn't live here then if that was the case). Now these same people are proud of being Italian (as they should be) and we have areas of town where the streets have both English and Italian names; or English and Greek; and other neighbourhoods where you will see entire shopping malls with all the signs in Chinese (no English at all.) (Funny thing is, when I was a kid, I kind of envied the Italian kids - they always seemed to have so much fun!) America used to call itself a "melting pot" and Canada liked to think of itself as more of a "cultural mosaic". I think the melting pot theory can only go so far. People recognize that you can be a proud American (or Canadian, or whatever) who is also proud of their heritage. I recognize the fact that people whose ethnic group has been here longer tend to feel they have more rights than those who came along later, and often feel threatened or intimidated by these newcomers who speak different languages, eat different kinds of food and so on, but we were all newcomers once. Pretty much to say that I guess those people who like to brag about their Irishness have just arrived at that point where being "different" is not a bad thing. >A pretty-much-totally red Irish who can get sunburnt by standing too >close >to a nightlight and whose hair always has dark roots even >though he's >never dyed it. I have a sister who could be your twin! Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 14:39:07 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Does Joni influence your life too much? Lou said:..."Maybe a new thread... I've read how people have Jonimoments (TM) in supermarkets and such. ...But does Ms. Mitchell have a dominant influence over your art or music, your outlook on people, the way you handle things, etc.?" Funny you should mention this. I was going to raise the issue last week myself since I had noticed that several times within that week I had said things that were quotes from Joni. This has happened much more, of course, since I joined this list. I didn't raise it at the time because there were so many other good threads going on that I didn't want to interrupt the flow. My suggestion was going to be: imagine that it's even *possible* there could be "too much Joni" in your life (unthinkable!). My two examples that I could think of were these: You know you've got too much Joni in your life when... 1. You're talking to your 12-year old about her favourite animal, which happens to be the cheetah. She is telling you about how cheetahs are more like dogs than cats and that they can be tamed. She moves from there to tigers and wonders about the possibility of taming these. You hear yourself saying, "But darling, you can't tame the tiger." (and your inner voice that monitors all this stuff says, "I can't believe you just said that.") 2. You are responding to an e-mail from a co-worker who has asked for a suggestion on dealing with a particular problem she's having with our correspondence tracking system. You e-mail her back suggesting she may want to pursue this with the systems officer but suggest as well that she may not want to push this too hard just yet, as it isn't urgent and because, with all the Y2K stuff going on at present, the systems officer is "up to her neck in alligators". Lou continues with: "I noticed it last evening in the recording studio. I'm doing a new album of traditional harp and harpsichord music -- Irish and Renaissance (I sell them at Renaissance festivals." I love that kind of music - do you sell it anywhere apart from the festivals? Do you ever come to Toronto? "Is there a cure?" Probably, but it wouldn't be pleasant. It would require total withdrawal from all things Joni and only the strongest and hardest of heart dare go there. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 14:47:23 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Rufus Beer >"Lawyers haven't been this popular since Rufus Beer slaughtered half >of >France....." Tres amusant. I'm sure any beer named Rufus would kill more than just half of France :-D Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:40:20 +0200 From: "Lori REASON" Subject: Being Irish - NJC One of the many things I admire about Jewish people is their sense of humor & ability to poke fun at themselves (something we Irish should take a lesson from). E.T. ******* Me da thought he had Irish roots (and I'm *not* referring to his hair!). I was raised on Irish jokes - those were his best. How many out there with Irish roots have been to Ireland? One of the things they love to do more than drink Guiness and tell Irish jokes is mess with foreigners - especially Americans. You've got to go. The craic (atmosphere) is grand (great)! Lori And now for a wee Irish joke: The Queen and the Pope The queen and the pope are standing on the balcony of Buckingham Palace in front of gathered thousands. Out of the side of her mouth the queen says to the pope, "I'll bet you two Swiss Guards that with one small wave of my hand I can make every English person in the crowd go mad with delight." "Ok," whispers the pope, "this I want to see." So the queen waves, and the crowd go wild, nearly ripping their flags with joy. The pope is impressed, but not to be outdone. "Alright", he says to the queen out of the corner of his mouth, "I'll bet you two Beefeaters that with one small nod of my head I can make every Irish person in the crowd go insane with adulation and celebrate for days." The queen is certain that she's on to a winner here, so she whispers, "Go on then." So the pope headbutts her. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 15:01:59 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: How much, how often? Jason queried: "how much Joni do you all listen to?" I don't listen to anything at work because I get interrupted too often by phone calls, staff problems and so on and it gets too frustrating. I keep wanting to tell people to get the hell out of my office so I can actually do some work and listen to some music. I do listen on my way to and from work, and when I'm doing my half-hour of stationary biking at the Y (boring, but some weight is coming off and the music is a big help!) I must say I've been playing a heckuva lot of Joni lately. I just bought DJRD - that was one that I hadn't bought for some reason up until a month or so ago. I've been listening to it almost non-stop since getting it, which is what I tend to do any time I get anything new that I particularly like. For this reason, right now, the lyrics and music of DJRD have been playing almost non-stop in my head. Right now, I'm attempting a bit of a Joni-withdrawal. Trying to expand my horizons and not stick too much to one theme, because I recognize a certain obsessive-compulsive tendency in myself and when I notice that happening, I try to divert myself with other things. So I've been listening to Bonnie Raitt, Elvis Costello, Sarah MacLachlan, Sandy Dennie (Denny? I keep forgetting the spelling) and classical music and a bit of jazz to try to get myself a little less focussed on Joni - not that I think that's a bad thing, but it's kind of like eating the same food for dinner every night - it might be your favourite, but you need a little variety as well, and you appreciate it so much more when you get back to it after eating at MacDonald's. Jason, if you're spreading yourself "thin" as you say on other artists, you're probably healthier than I am. Keep up the good work. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 15:20:39 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: $ in Mattress - NJC Lindsay tells us to "Beware of the mattress! ...Elizabeth Ashley [has]been a smoker all her life -- are you listening Joni?? -- and although she has been fanatically careful about dousing ashtrays with water, somehow a fire started, all her mementos are lost *and* she had $10,000 in a duffel bag in her closet that is now burned up." Lucky for me - I gave up smoking 14 years ago. But your point is well-taken! On the other hand, the barter system has a certain appeal... Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:21:39 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: RE: how much, how often? I have to admit that I don't listen to Joni that much. I play her a lot on my guitar so when I get a chance to listen to music I usually don't pick her. During the summer I was absolutely FREAKING to Heart's Greatest Hits and would continually reprogram the disc to play Crazy on You over and over. (don't ask me what that was about but now I listen to that song and I want to hurl. Burnout!) What happens is I'll usually catch myself listening to Joni by surprise. Like when I reached under the seat of my car and found my Chalkmark tape that had been missing for over a year. I stuck it in and was completely JOYOUS. Beat of Black Wings became my anthem for about a week. Then when I received the Joni's Jazz tape, I was so taken with Joe Jackson's piano playing on Down to You (talk about somebody who has Joni in the blood) that I put on Court & Spark for the first time in probably 2 years. I just laid on the couch with my eyes closed and absorbed the whole disc like a symphony. What a GREAT piece of work. That's about the time I started playing Help Me insessantly. So although I don't actually LISTEN to Joni a lot, she creeps up on me almost every day in some form. I also have been listening to Joni for over 30 years so I guess I'm one of the mature voices (I know you are but what am I!! :-b) Take care, Sue ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ weekend email address: suemc16@webtv.net "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:30:16 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: hair & moustaches & O&M Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:02:40 -0400 From: Debra Kaufman All this talk of hair and then Einstein, I have to ask what's happened to the plain old moustache? You never see just that anymore and some men look so good in them. VanDykes I like a lot but that's all you see, except for the (usually older man) full beard. I like the Otis & Marlene thread, esp. wally and Mark in Seattle's comments. When DJRD came out, there was much talk about Muslims, much ignorant and racist talk because of the oil crisis. There were t-shirts that said things like "Ayatollah Assa-hola" with an ugly picture of Khomeini (sp), and a lot of nationalist talk and bravado setting apart "us" from "them"--in other words, demonizing Islamic people. I think that's what Joni's remarks refer to ("Muslims hold up Washington" referring to the oil countries "holding up" US policymakers, that is, calling the shots and making oil prices zoom). The picture of her on the album cover with the cartoon bubble saying "mooslims, mooslims, heh-heh-heh" or whatever she's making fun of that. I agree with Mark that O&M reflects Joni's ambivalence toward her wealth and status, and she's including herself in that critique. (she's on the arm of her Marlboro Man)--using wit and sarcasm. I don't see this portrait as anti-semitic but rather a harsh critique of the wealthy aging socialite type once again (or still) exploiting the "exotic" tropical culture. Debra K. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:43:54 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Rufus Beer Jason and Catherine already at happy hour say: << >"Lawyers haven't been this popular since Rufus Beer slaughtered half >of >France....." Tres amusant. I'm sure any beer named Rufus would kill more than just half of France :-D >> Maybe Joni was pronouncing it that way just to give her good friend Chaka Kahn a little giggle. :-{) Luv Mean Old Daddy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 15:54:14 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Being Irish - NJC Loved your Queen/Pope joke! never been to Ireland... Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:20:53 EDT From: Ladygrammy@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V4 #482 Hi all, I'm in a questioning mood, today, I guess. Maybe a new thread... I've read how people have Jonimoments (TM) in supermarkets and such. And concerts and releases are a big central deal. There are so many great themes and hooks in her music that it's easy to look at an ugly new shopping center and sing "paved Paradise, and put up a parking lot..." But does Ms. Mitchell have a dominant influence over your art or music, your outlook on people, the way you handle things, etc.? I noticed it last evening in the recording studio. I'm doing a new album of traditional harp and harpsichord music -- Irish and Renaissance (I sell them at Renaissance festivals). We're talking very traditional, almost classical. The engineer for this Harper Lou writes... "I think you're putting too many slurs in there. Your singing reminds me of what Joni Mitchell does -- it's too modern sounding." Has this ever happened to any of you artists, poets, musicians, or dreamers out there? Is there a cure? Dear Harper Lou, Why in the world would you want to cure it? ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #483 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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