From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #473 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, October 21 1999 Volume 04 : Number 473 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: DED's defenders ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: Lyrics - poems, etc. (NJC) ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Joni musings ... ["Helen M. Adcock" ] News on Joni's Next Album ["Paul Castle" ] Re: DED's defenders ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Calling all TV sluts - NJC ["John Low" ] Re: Typical (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] RE: Don's Phonecall From Joni ... ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Don's Phonecall From Joni ... [catman ] Re: Joni/JT analogy ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Joni/JT analogy [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Re: (NJC) Matthew Shepard - Looooonnnng one (sorry!) (Skip it if you want to) [catman ] RE: a request - DED songbook [Jamie Zubairi ] Re: Joni/JT analogy [TerryM2442@aol.com] revisiting classic joni ["Bill Dollinger" ] Re[2]: (NJC) Matthew Shepard ["Lori REASON"] Re: (NJC) Matthew Shepard [catman ] Re:News on Joni's Next Album ["Lori REASON"] Re: Blue on Gold CD ["Jennifer L. Nodine" ] Re: songwriting JMDLers? (NJ) ["Jennifer L. Nodine" ] Re: News on Joni's Next Album ["Jennifer L. Nodine" ] now delurking [ZZScotty@aol.com] Re: revisiting classic joni [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: now delurking ["Jennifer L. Nodine" ] Re: now delurking [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Re: revisiting classic joni [Don Rowe ] RE: revisiting classic joni [Anne Sandstrom ] Re: Joni/JT analogy [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: revisiting classic joni [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: revisiting classic joni ["Ken (Slarty)" ] Re: revisiting classic joni ["Catherine McKay" ] RE: revisiting classic joni ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: revisiting classic joni [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Joni/JT analogy [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 03:43:09 -0400 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: DED's defenders Anne wrote: << I realize I'm the only JMDLer who actually LIKES DED ;~) >> Dog Eat Dog does sometimes seem to get a bum rap on the JMDL but I for one (& certainly not the only one) adore this album. I often sing along to Fiction when I'm pissed at the world & it always makes me feel much better. The Three Great Stimulants is SO succinct & I'll NEVER forget hearing Joni play it live at the conspiracy of Hope concert! Shiny Toys is classic Joni & I don't understand why some people on this list consider it fluff. Ethiopia is the only song on the subject that ever moved me to tears. I COMPLETELY disagree that Joni was jumping on some bandwagon for this (or any) song! Actually she was once again ahead of her time linking famine to deforestation many years before this fact became common knowledge. Impossible Dreamer is absolutely BEAUTIFUL! I've heard it was Joni's tribute to John Lennon. Whatever, it is an extremely haunting piece. DED is definately up there with my top 10 fav Joni albums/CDs. & I simply LOVE the cover art - very 80's! E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:24:57 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Lyrics - poems, etc. (NJC) Pat wrote: >i thought the poems were very nice. i just watched this show last night >where they were interviewing an actor or an artist and someone asked her a >question about : divine dissatisfaction versus destructive self criticism. This made me laugh - not with amusement, but more with irony - directed at myself that is. I knew I was being very self-critical, and self-deprecating, but could I stop? No. I've always done it, and probably always will. I guess it's partly my background - being teased for being the "best" at anything, or for achieving anything out of the ordinary. It's also a New Zealand thing. The old "tall poppy syndrome" in action. I have no idea if that expression is universal, or if it's a Kiwi thing, but basically it means if anyone achieves greatness, then there will be a large number of people ready to find fault and shoot them down - and it happens from a very early age. I always find it ironic that I can turn this analysis on myself, and find a logical reason for my actions, and yet I'm helpless to stop repeating them! See, I'm doing it again - justifying my actions! Instead of just saying that I do have insecurities about some facets of my life, and just accepting it! >next time you are crying for love, ...call me....im very penitent. :) Well, this particular poem wasn't actually autobiographical. I was sitting at home one day staring out the window, watching the rain, and it just happened! But I'll keep you in mind! Helen P.S. Thanks for saying my poems were very nice - I've been nervous about everyone's reactions all day (I'M JOKING!!!) _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:26:32 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Joni musings ... Don wrote: >By way of a related issue ... a friend of mine who is >a big Tommy Shaw fan went to see him play an acoustic >set at a local Borders bookstore. When asked for >requests, Tommy couldn't remember some of the words to >his own songs, so she cheerfully sang them for him. >We could so easily do the same for Joni, I'm thinking! It's already happened! Remember "Song For Sharon" on PWWAM! Helen _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:38:07 -0400 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: News on Joni's Next Album WallyB wrote: >She told me how a bunch of the older, jaded players >had huddled into the playback booth and teared up >when they listened to the playbacks. The fact that these guys were not already propping up the bar at The Dog and Duck during the playback is almost unheard of. But they were 'tearing up' as well? Can you imagine what we're all going to be like? PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:47:08 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: DED's defenders Eric wrote: >Dog Eat Dog does sometimes seem to get a bum rap on the JMDL but I for >one (& certainly not the only one) adore this album. Personally I actually love ALL of Joni's albums - I love some a little more than others, but they're all still loved. But here's an easy method to enable everyone on the JMDL to say they absolutely love DED. Just compare it to any of the following: Spice Girls - Spiceworld Mariah Carey - Sing-A-Long (Karaoke) Geri Halliwell - Schizophrenic or my own personal favourite: Leonard Nimoy/William Shatner - Spaced Out (The Very Best Of) You'll be singing DED's praises in no time! Helen P.S. These are all legitimate albums - available from CD-NOW. Get those credit cards out and start ordering! _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 03:57:51 PDT From: "John Low" Subject: Calling all TV sluts - NJC Don, "Once Upon A Time in the West" is one of my favourites. Don't you think the opening scenes with Jack Elam and Woody Strode are 'classic' - probably the best start to a western ever! IMO Jack Elam is one of the most interesting western 'supporting' actors in the business. I've loved him ever since I was a kid. I can't remember the first film I saw him in but it was probably one of those black & white TV westerns in the early 1960s. And, Phil, I'm not ashamed either of admiting I love those Clint Eastwood spag. westerns. In fact I like all his westerns. I was in the supermarket the other day and couldn't resist a video copy of "Joe Kidd" that was on the 'sale' shelves. I love Westerns! John (in Sydney). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:43:27 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: Typical (NJC) Michael says: <> What a great idea, Michael...what's she gonna do? She's not going to go away and leave US in charge of the house, plus she couldn't resist not joining in the festivities. So we can safely proceed with planning "Labor Day '2000 - Mass Descension!" :~D I was just this morning looking at the photos that Jody sent me...in EVERY one, there's just so many looks of PURE JOY! (Even the ones that caught people nappin') Bob NP: "God Must Be a Boogie Man", Columbia MD '83 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:57:18 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: RE: Don's Phonecall From Joni ... Wally, for God's sake, get some sleep! > > The Renaissance is not over, it has just become more selective. > > > > Harper Lou > > >after spending the last 50 HOURS without sleep, editing application essays >written by [mostly] mediocre, dull and greedy MBA candidates, this is >precisely the sentence i needed to read. bless you harper lou for lighting >the candle in this poor heart of mine today. >wallyk > Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:23:06 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Don's Phonecall From Joni ... I just read an article tha said The renaissance didn't exist-it's just something made up by Western Elitists. Wally Kairuz wrote: > > The Renaissance is not over, it has just become more selective. > > > > Harper Lou > > after spending the last 50 HOURS without sleep, editing application essays > written by [mostly] mediocre, dull and greedy MBA candidates, this is > precisely the sentence i needed to read. bless you harper lou for lighting > the candle in this poor heart of mine today. > wallyk - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:25:35 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: (NJC) Matthew Shepard - Looooonnnng one (sorry!) (Skip it if you want to) James said: "I'm not sure that confusion about one's sexuality are really at the heart of most expressions of homophobia. When I was a kid, we'd throw around those denigrating terms for homosexuals mainly because they were hurtful. Calling a young boy effeminate or homosexual was the worst kind of insult." My response: You know what? I think you're right! My kids call each other names all the time now. It's getting quite annoying, but I remember doing it as a kid too. Whenever I was really upset with one of my sisters, I'd call her fatty. Two of my kids' favourites right now are "gay" (this is now an insult?) and "bitch". They don't seem to care whether the person they're name-calling is male or female either. They don't yell, "You're gay!" at each other, but my daughter in particular will call any boy she doesn't like (which at age 12 is, most of them) "gay". She'll say, "Oh, so-and-so, he acts like he's gay". When I ask her what she means by that, she says she knows it means men who love other men, or men who "sleep" with other men, but to her, she just means the guy is creepy. And often it's in retaliation for their having called her a name (usually it's "bitch", or sometimes they'll ask her if she's a lesbian.) I've told her to respond with, "Well, if you're the only male around, I guess I'll have to be Lesbian!" and she laughs, but she's not that much of a wise-ass to actually say that. The other thing my kids are doing a lot of now is threatening to tell each others' friends about anything their sib does that isn't "normal", as in, "Matthew, I'll tell all your friends that you run around the house naked", or "Sarah, I'll tell all your friends that you still like the Spice Girls". My son, who is 9, was worried that his having a sleepover at his friend's house meant he was gay, so here's a kid just becoming aware of his sexuality already feeling the pressure of people thinking he might be "different". James also wrote: "Insults were used by boys just like chickens establish dominance by pecking each other." Again, you're quite right - I think males do that a lot more than females. Or maybe females are more subtle about it. Remember Elaine on Seinfeld saying that while boys would pound each other, girls would just shun each other until someone developed an eating disorder? And James, again: "I don't think I had any confusion over my sexuality at the time. I was comfortably heterosexual and had no homosexual inclinations. But I think peer pressure had convinced me that being effeminate (which in my small mind meant homosexual) was the worst of all behavioral traits. I think homophobia has more to do with behavioral norms and social dominance that with questions about sexuality." I partly agree, partly disagree. Many men ARE comfortable with their own sexuality, but others aren't. This is true regardless of one's orientation and, IMO - as always! Hey, whadaya take me for? - even though females have doubts, we don't seem as preoccupied by it as males do, at least, not that I've seen - we're not always checking to see if our privates are still there ;). Males just react differently to it. Instead of admitting to themselves, or others, that they have doubts or questions, they just mask the whole thing with this macho bravado act and "protest too much". Not that I'm trying to paint everyone with the same brush, but boys are raised to believe that they have to be part of a team, they have to be like everyone else, and the toughest one gets the prize. Men came up with the idea of armies, for example, where everyone dresses the same, walks the same, and obeys the captain. This carries through into the workplace. Jeez, where I work, people are even called "officers", as in "Information Officer". How much of that is nature and how much nurture is anyone's guess. Part of it may be some inborn imperative that says the tough guys will survive - even male animals fight for dominance in a pack over the females. But I also believe there's a lot of fear. No one wants to be singled out. No one wants to be the "nancy boy" and often young boys will act tough to escape being labelled a wimp. My son was being picked on a lot by his classmates last year, and there was no apparent reason for it, other than boys trying to exert dominance over others. And Matthew just didn't know how to deal with it. Fortunately, over the summer, he has gained some more self-confidence (we had just moved, so it didn't help that he was starting out mid-year in a new school) and he's not putting up with it anymore (he also grew over the summer, so he's not the smallest boy anymore!) But I can see where boys give and get a much harder time of it than girls. Girls tend to group together with like-minded souls, and there's cattiness and all that (my daughter complaining about the "cool" girls who think they're better than everyone else, for example), but as a rule, there seems to be more flexibility among girls to be "different". (There is, however, a disturbing rise in "gangs" of girls attacking other girls.) James again: "I think you are right that homophobia is more noticeable among males. I suspect that is because males have stronger dominance heirarchies in our culture." For sure! James continues: "I read Monday in Dear Abby that the Center for Disease Control and Prevention determined that 1 in 13 students had been attacked or harrassed because of being suspected of being gay. 4 our 5 of those students were heterosexual. I think this supports the hypothesis that "homophobia" in kids is really more an excuse for social dominance and not always directly related to sexual orientation." This does not surprise me. This type of nonsense seems to be at its peak in the university years and it's not just gays who are picked on. At Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario, there have been recent recurrences of male (engineering) students sexually harassing female students intimidating them with signs that say things like "No just means harder" and "Go down or go home." This had happened a few years ago and attempts were made to stop it. These attempts worked for a while, but have come back this year. And James says: "I'm not sure that low intelligence contributes to homophobia in youngs boys. I feel it was more related to social pressures and indoctrination at a young age." That's too true - it's amazing how quickly kids fall into that. You try to raise them to be balanced, not to believe all the silly stories they hear at school, and not to judge people based on superficial criteria, and you just hope something gets through. There's also a question over how you want to define "intelligence". If it's just IQ you're measuring, then many intellectuals are bigots and offer what appear to be sound and logical reasons for why their bigotry is based on "science", which unfortunately lends a kind of credence to their claims. Fortunately, a trend seems to be developing towards also measuring "emotional intelligence" and we can hope to see this trend continue so that people aren't picked for jobs and placements in professions such as medicine and so on just based on marks, but also based on their people skills and empathy towards others. James: "Seems likely that low self esteem might contribute to using more insults on others though." Catherine: There again, I think you've got it. When all else fails, call someone names! (After I called my sister "Fatty!" or smacked her one, I'd run so I could have the last shot and thereby retain my dignity!) James: I don't think I lost my homophobia because I became more intelligent or had more self esteem. I lost it when I really met (out of the closet) homosexuals and realized that the terms of insult I used when I was younger actually referred to real people. Catherine: For my part, I never even gave it much thought until, like you, I met and worked with gay men, many of whom had been bashed physically or verbally just because they were gay. They were nice, funny, warm, witty people and I hate it when people treat my friends like that. James: Simply being exposed to diversity can help people overcome their fears and prejudices. Catherine: That's very true. I've sometimes suggested, only partly waggishly, to my boss that if they really wanted employment equity to work, they should put a couple of bigots on the team so they'd be forced to recognize the "other" as being just like them. James: [and worse yet, i still use some of those terms when i'm REALLY angry at some thing, more often that not angry at some inanimate object like my computer. i blurt them out almost unconsciously, without any thought to what they mean. you know when you say "damn"-- do you really mean to damn someone to hell? not usually, it just slips out because you've fallen into the habit of saying it when you are angry. Catherine: When I was a kid, I never used foul language, just personal insults. (Like, that's OK?) In a family of 5, one becomes quite adept at that, always trying to top someone else with the most shocking expression - I remember once calling my brother "human garbage" and I was elated to see how he reacted to that, because he was my big brother and he was always winning over me - you have no idea how good that felt, in a sick way. I don't know what the hell (oops! heck) happened to me over the years, (I blame it on my husband!) but I really must clean up my language. (And I wonder where the kids get it from...) I keep trying to tell them that if you want your use of a swear word to really have an impact, you should use them sparingly. That way when it does come out, people know you REALLY mean it! (And keep it to bodily functions, not personal insults.) Sorry for such a long e-mail, and I'm not picking on James at all (are you really Jimbo? dunno if I could call you that - I used to work for someone that we called Jimbo, and I didn't much like him.) I enjoyed what you had to say and you make a lot of sense. What strange creatures we humans are! Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:42:20 -0400 From: "Bill Dollinger" Subject: Re: "Kiss my ass I said ..." -- more Music Biz blues (njc) I am not a garth brooks fan, I like him as a person tho, but I find it sad and typical that when he branches out with a project that is a creative stretch (the life of chris gaines) and to me the most interesting thing he has done, he pays for it. and the media is all too happy to emphasize the "disappointing" sales. Bill - ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Rowe To: Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 4:46 PM Subject: "Kiss my ass I said ..." -- more Music Biz blues (njc) > >From the NY Times profile of Pat Quigley, Pres. of > Capitol Nashville and boy genius behind Garth's alter > ego: > > Spending time with Quigley, one realizes that one of > the most repeated criticisms about him is true: He is > a > marketing man, not a music man. With a background of > selling everything from skis to watches to beer, he is > representative of a new breed of executive in the > recording industry, where the music men -- the former > songwriters and producers who have dominated the > business -- are being replaced by international > businessmen who could just as easily be selling > Internet stocks. > > Quigley often refers to Capitol Nashville not as > a record label but as a marketing company. He is not a > executive who uses his ears, but one who uses his > eyes, > analyzing audience research statistics and sales > charts. > > > > ===== > "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:56:08 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: (NJC) Matthew Shepard I was reading last night and this paragraph is appropriate: 'Similarly, it would be possible to eradicate the world-wide misery of loneliness. The world is full of lonely people who, instead of easing one another's misery by becoming friends, remain trapped in their misery by the way they define themselves and other people. Because they define themselves as 'unacceptable', or 'bad', or 'boring', or 'inferior', or 'unlovable' they are frightened of other people and so hide themsleves behind walls both real and imaginary. Since one way to of trying to bolster up a faltering self-esteem is to denigrate other people, we define other people as bad, mad and dangerous, be it because of their race or religion, or simply because they speak with a different accent or behahve in ways different from ours. Though it is true that each of us inhabit our own little world of our thoughts and feelings, our inherent aloneness is not the reason for the prevalence of lonliness. We all want to have companionship and closeness, but we prevent ourselves from having this by the way we define ourselves and other people. There are many other ways in which we prevent ourselves from getting what we want by the way we define ourselves. If we define ourselves as 'stupid' we rule out all the possibilites that follow from education. If we define ourselves as 'ugly' we rule out all possibilities that follow from enjoying our appearence. If we define ourselves as 'cowardly-stay-at-home' we rule out all the possibilties of exploration. If we define ourselves as a 'loser' we rule out all the possibities of winning. Jim's defination of himself as a 'Type A personality' ruled out all the pleasures of taking life as it comes and co-operating with others in enterprises and in play. ..... Men who accept the traditional defintion of what it is to be masculine exclude from their lives most of what it is to be human and live within a sorry circle of work, sex, sport and violence. Women who accept the traditional definition of what is feminine may find much to explore and discover within homemaking and motherhood, but their awareness, however dim, of the possibilites beyond their home and within themselves can make their lives a misery. extract from Wanting Everything by Dr Dorothy Rowe, p34-35. POWER IS THE ABILITY TO GET OTHER PEOPLE TO ACCEPT YOUR DEFINTION OF REALITY. Dr Rowe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:03:35 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Joni/JT analogy Alan said: "Circle Game would be inappropriate I guess [as a Joni with orchestra remake]" It could be interesting if she added a new verse or two from her perspective as a mature adult - she could do that with Both Sides Now as well. I think it'd be kinda cool. I wonder, if she did "The last time I saw Richard" whether she might have to change anything? Suppose she saw Richard again after '68, in another place. Suppose he and the figure skater had divorced? Would they meet in a bar? or at Starbucks! :D Would Richard be "cynical and drunk" or would he have totally changed his life? Maybe he's moved out to the country and is into organic farming. Maybe he's a real estate agent. Maybe he's gotten remarried... just wondering. Catherine (in Toronto)(missing my 12-year old who's gone on a school trip until Friday) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:24:12 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: Joni/JT analogy Catherine wondered: <> That's a very COOL idea, Catherine. Of course, she's have to call it, "The NEXT Time I saw Richard"...could be very creative, indeed, all those years later... And of course Joni re-doing her old songs would be great, as all things Joni are, but what I'm REALLY looking to is her next collection of *original* stuff...as meaty as TTT is, (and thanks to Jonifest and you guys for making me see that) I'm ready to see her NEW songs celebrating her reunion, her becoming a Grandmother, and of course, her continuing search of truth, beauty, and love... But of course I'll embrace every note from her I can get! Bob NP: "Edith", Boston Commons '83 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:24:58 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: (NJC) Matthew Shepard - Looooonnnng one (sorry!) (Skip it if you want to) It is rather unforunate that the word gay and the word creepy have beome synonymous for your daugther. I learned very young that I was not what a boy was supposed to be. From my earliest recollections, I was always interested in 'girl' things like knitting and sewing. i was good at both(still am). I also loved woodwork. I hated football(soccer) but liked rounders and netball. I loved to climb trees and cliffs and go off adventuring. I preferred girls to boys. I preffered Bunty to The Eagle(comics). I got hit a lot by my dad for being a 'cissy'. I was too young to know what he meant but not too young to know I was an emabarassment to him and something he was disgusted by.(one thing I now find incredibly funny is that I reoved all the unforms from my Ation Man(GI JOE) and made him pretty 'flower power' clothes) By my 12th birthady I had sopped interacting with girls and also with boys. i stopped any form of sport. I was in high school by then and in the Australian outback. Needless to say I was not accepatble to my peers or to my teachers and the daily bullying was something i still wonder how i survived. I was nicknamed 'shit' mostly but was also called queer and poof and pansy and nancy etc. i had no idea why. I didn't know what a homosexual was till I was almost 16. Then i realised they meant ME! Up till then i thought they knew about the teacher who molested me and that is why I was bullied etc. My dads violence toward me grew too as I became older and into puberty and was even less like 'boy'. However, as i got away from all that and learned more about myself and others. i came to understand that the fault did not lie in me but in those that found me unacceptable-family, teachers, church, society. I came to accept myself for me and realised how lucky I was to be sensitive and compassionate and kind and peace loving and accepting of others. I have had many, and still do, wonderful relationships with women that I might otherwise not have had. To be in touch with my real feelings, not having to act, but to just be me, is a great blessing. Even my spiritual life was greatly affected. i found I could not have a relaionship with God as i was taught of God, because as myself I was not acceptable to Him. I knew this when i was very young. i found nothing in prayer or meditation because i was constantly aware that God expected me to be different to the person i am. this put up a big barrier. then i discovered i had been taught wrong and that others had only placed their interpretations of God upon me. As a footnote, my partner, who is also gay(!), was a boy's boy, masculine, played Rugby at University, is tall and dark with a very deep voice and watches snooker and other sports on tv etc. Thru discussions and reading, we experience many of ther same communication problems that male/female couples can do. I want a cuddle, he thinks I want sex, I ask how he is and he reports facts. he asks me how my day was, I tell him how I felt. I get upset over something that was said and he thinks it isn't important. i remember anniversaries and birthdays and to say I love you. he grunts. I do a slap up meal for our anniversary and he grunts'that was nice'; and falls asleep, not even knowing why i had spent all day doing him a special meal!!!!!!! Mind you after 18 1/2 years, he is learning. And I am glad to say despite the above, he is unlike the husbands of most of the women i know. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:34:48 EDT From: Julian51469@aol.com Subject: Dream List II I've been loving this thread of dream remake albums. Has anyone done the dream tribute album? Here's mine: The Wolf that Lives in Linsey - Michael Hedges The Dry Cleaner from Desmoines - Frank Zappa This Flight Tonight - Jimi Hendrix Cactus Tree - Billie Holliday The Fiddle and the Drum - Woody Guthrie Blue - Janice Joplin Free Man in Paris - Jim Morrison The Jungle Line - Kurt Cobain Paprika Plains - Duke Ellington For the Roses - Laura Nyro and then for the folks that are still around... Blonde in the Bleachers - Madona Don't Interupt the Sorrow - Diamanda Galas Coyote - Ani Difranco Refuge of the Roads - Wilco The Silky Veils of Ardor Martin Sexton Cherokee Louise - Buffy Sante-Marie Dreamland - Mickey Hart Magdalene Laundries - Mormon Tabernacle Choir Sex Kills - Dinosaur Jr. Raised on Robbery - Squirrel Nut Zippers That Song About the Midway - Dar Williams Face Lift - Cher Rainy Night House - Tom Waits Passion Play - Rage Against the Machine Don Juan's Reckless Daughter - Kate Bush A Case of You - the Pogues California - The Red Hot Chili Peppers I realize that this could go on forever. Anyway.... I'm very excited about the new releases. Just to get the news is an early Valentines, no doubt. Thanks to Wally B., I'm vicariously having a long winded imaginary conversation with our buddy JM. Thanks Julian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:40:05 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: DED's defenders ET said: "Impossible Dreamer is absolutely BEAUTIFUL! I've heard it was Joni's tribute to John Lennon. Whatever, it is an extremely haunting piece." I love that song. The words, the music - I love the way her voice dips down on "I thought of you, I thought of you, dreamer". Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:29:20 +0100 From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: RE: a request - DED songbook Dear Anne I realize I'm the only JMDLer who actually LIKES DED ;~) No, you're not!!! DED is on my list (tho' only *some* songs put it up there.) Imagine that! A DED songbook! Does one exist? Much Joni Jamie Zubairi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:08:07 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni/JT analogy In a message dated 10/21/1999 10:06:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cateri@hotmail.com writes: << I wonder, if she did "The last time I saw Richard" whether she might have to change anything? >> For starters, she'll need to bring some of it down two octaves. Other than the ending of Woodstock, this is the one song where those high notes hit me wrong. Terry, who has a brother, Richard, from Detroit ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:21:12 -0400 From: "Bill Dollinger" Subject: revisiting classic joni while i would love to hear joni revisit some of her older material, i am not really sure I would want to hear orchestra versions of many of her early classics. Some songs just do not lend themselves at all to the big band or orchestral arrangements. and some songs just don't lend themselves to being performed at this point in joni's life because they reflect on a young girl and frankly would sound silly coming from a woman in her fifties. it is interesting tho that only some of the songs joni wrote in her early years would seem out of place now, but others from the same era have great potential to be even stronger songs with an orchestral or big band arrangement. So while I believe that the definitive versions of songs like I think I Understand, Roses Blue, and Conversation have been recorded, I think we are in for a treat to see some amazing things come out of this revisitation. Knowing how she is, I'm sure we are in for some surprises.... possible remakes: The Rearrangement The "second-to-the-last" time I saw Richard Song for Sharon's Daughter bill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 18:25:14 +0200 From: "Lori REASON" Subject: Re[2]: (NJC) Matthew Shepard Just empathizing with your story. Heard a friend this week tell about her problems with at school which she's still traumatized over - and only because she had bad eyesight! It never ceases to amaze me how we humans abuse one another. You also reminded me of a friend in LA who invited me to his house for dinner because he had something important to tell me. When dinner was almost over he started to tell me - but blushed, then I blushed (cuz I had no idea what it was, but it sounded *serious*), then he finally told me he was gay. I laughed lightly and said, but of course you are! He could not believe that everyone (at the office) knew but him. He was worried that everyone talked about him behind his back, and was embarrassed, until I told him that everyone just accepted and liked him just the way he was. We really had a good talk after that. I still miss him. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:50:08 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: (NJC) Matthew Shepard Hi Lori-I really identified with your dinner date with with your friend. I had a similar experience with a woman who had no idea I was gay when she told me she was! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 18:47:24 +0200 From: "Lori REASON" Subject: Re:News on Joni's Next Album <> Just in time for my birthday! (tee-hee) <> In defense of the orchestra, these guys can play Beethoven & Mozart backwards in their sleep. Working on a project like this is a thrill. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:45:40 -0400 From: "Jennifer L. Nodine" Subject: Re: Blue on Gold CD Eric, I bought it last month and am thrilled with it also. Well worth the 22 bucks that went up in smoke! - -Jenny from CT Eric Taylor wrote: > > Today I broke down & bought the first Joni Mitchell album I purchased back > in 1975, Blue, on 24 karat gold CD. Omygod does it sound FANTASTIC!!! On a > Roland amp & CD player through Klipch Heresy speakers it sounded better than > I've EVER heard it. But what is that scratchy noise on This Flight Tonight > when she sings "mythical"? It's not nearly as noticeable on the gold CD but > it's still there. Glad they fixed the opening to All I Want. > Also bought the HDCD of Hejira but haven't listened yet. First I replaced > all Joni's albums with CDs & now I'm replacing all Joni's CDs with HDCDs or > Gold CDs! But it's well worth it & I enjoy giving the old ones to friends. > E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:49:03 -0400 From: "Jennifer L. Nodine" Subject: Re: songwriting JMDLers? (NJ) Kakki wrote: > I'm getting into all these fantastic lyrics so much I say this year the > "JMDL Cookbook," next year the "JMDL Book of Poems and Lyrics!!" > > I second that, Kakki! How about a collective Joni song from all of us who can only think up a verse or two? - -Jenny from CT ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:52:27 -0400 From: "Jennifer L. Nodine" Subject: Re: News on Joni's Next Album Wow, I had no idea you actually have a relationship with "her majesty" any hope of a "JMDL" mention in any new songs? - -Jenny from CT Wally Breese wrote: > > Hi everyone, > Joni phoned to tell me how excited she is about her just-completed > album of standards, recorded this past July in London. The tracks were > arranged for a full orchestra, with Joni acting as the vocalist, a la > Frank Sinatra. In fact, she recorded one song done originally by Sinatra, > as well as other tunes sung by Billie Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald, and other > romantic pop singers. She also took another pass at two of her own > classic tunes, "Both Sides Now" and "A Case Of You." Joni refers to her > new album as "A History Of North American Romantic Love In The Twentieth > Century." > > On the first day in the studio, Joni told me that she recorded four > tunes with the full 71 piece orchestra; on the second day, four more > songs went down with a 40 piece; and then on the third day, it was > wittled down to a big band ensemble for the final four songs. She told me > how a bunch of the older, jaded players had huddled into the playback > booth and teared up when they listened to the playbacks. > > The album could be released as early as Valentines Day (and I do mean > in the year 2000, not 2001). Joni says that the record company is very > pleased with the tracks and has committed to putting a good deal of > promotion behind the album's release. (Wonderful!) Her latest project has > given Joni the idea of doing an entire album of her own songs in this > format. She mentioned to me re-doing songs such as "Ludwig's Tune" with > an orchestra. > > The 12 songs on her upcoming album (tentatively titled Both Sides Now): > > You're My Thrill > At Last > Comes Love > You've Changed > Answer Me, My Love > A Case Of You > Don't Go To Strangers > It All Depends On You > I'll Get By > Stormy Weather > I Wish I Were In Love Again > Both Sides Now > > I'll have an official conversation with Joni, talking about her new > album, as well as other subjects, up on the pages of JM.COM soon. > > Oh, yes! Joni has also just recorded "a little singing" on a track for > Brian Blade's second album with his group, The Fellowship. That album > should be out early next year. > > Later, > Wally Breese > The Joni Mitchell Homepage > http://www.JoniMitchell.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:01:32 EDT From: ZZScotty@aol.com Subject: now delurking Hello to all. I've been on the list since October 1. I've been a Joni fan since about 1968 (which probably makes me older than 30). Thanks to Jen for turning me on to the list (after buying a couple of Joni CD's from her on ebay). I decided to go back and read old postings, and was inspired to write in response to a posting from richnew@slip-3.slip.net (richnew) on 9/10/96: "Finally, I really wasn't trying to be political at in any way. It is just interesting to me that, for many a gay (male) teen in the 1970s, there weren't many musical role models or people who spoke directly to the confusion, emotional torrents, and passionate feelings we were experiencing. Certainly no openly gay men. Joni was and is a touchstone to us angst-ridden kids (and adults) trying to figure out who we were/are." This took me back to fond memories of listening to Joni in the 70's with my best friend, Chris, back when we both drove cab in Denver. I've probably never understood our joint attraction to Joni until I read that post - my friend being gay, and I angst-ridden. Chris died about a decade ago from AIDS, and I thought I'd dedicate my de-lurking to him. And, by the way, I do like Dog Eat Dog. Sean McGuire ZZScotty@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:06:36 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: revisiting classic joni Bill writes: << possible remakes: The Rearrangement The "second-to-the-last" time I saw Richard Song for Sharon's Daughter >> Other possible remakes: I Thought I Understood Sisotowbell Highway Rusted Tin Angel For Free, with any Purchase of .... Help Me, I've Fallen and Can't Get Up Eh?Jira Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:15:01 -0400 From: "Jennifer L. Nodine" Subject: Re: now delurking Hey Sean! Great to hear from you finally! I was sorry to hear about your friend, I think it's nice of you to dedicate your first post to him. Hope to hear more from you now. Welcome! - -Jenny ZZScotty@aol.com wrote: > > Hello to all. I've been on the list since October 1. I've been a Joni fan > since about 1968 (which probably makes me older than 30). Thanks to Jen for > turning me on to the list (after buying a couple of Joni CD's from her on > ebay). > > I decided to go back and read old postings, and was inspired to write in > response to a posting from richnew@slip-3.slip.net (richnew) on 9/10/96: > "Finally, I really wasn't trying to be political at in any way. It is just > interesting to me that, for many a gay (male) teen in the 1970s, there > weren't many musical role models or people who spoke directly to the > confusion, emotional torrents, and passionate feelings we were experiencing. > Certainly no openly gay men. Joni was and is a touchstone to us angst-ridden > kids (and adults) trying to figure out who we were/are." > > This took me back to fond memories of listening to Joni in the 70's with my > best friend, Chris, back when we both drove cab in Denver. I've probably > never understood our joint attraction to Joni until I read that post - my > friend being gay, and I angst-ridden. Chris died about a decade ago from > AIDS, and I thought I'd dedicate my de-lurking to him. > > And, by the way, I do like Dog Eat Dog. > > Sean McGuire > ZZScotty@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:31:04 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: now delurking Sean said: <> Welcome Sean to the JMDL, a cornucopia of delights for the ears, eyes and hearts of Joni's fans around the globe! Linger long and post often! I was very touched by your dedication. And, congratulations! You responded to a thread from '96 and one that was not even a day old...that's gotta be some kind of record! :~) Bob NP: XTC, "Washaway" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:38:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: revisiting classic joni Well how can I resist this! Revisits I'd like to see include: A Strange Old Man Blue-Hair In The Bleachers God Must Be A Rhythmically Unchallenged Male Individual Night In The Suburbs Harry's Time Share Both Sides Later Just Like This Bullet Train So many more ... so little time! ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:01:22 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: RE: revisiting classic joni OK, getting very silly now...: How Do You Start Any Three Stimulants Tarnished Toys My Very Old Man (perhaps I'm laughing at this a bit too much... but I've been spending much of what used to be my 'free' time caring my elderly mother - this bit of humor, as politically incorrect as it is, is refreshingly wicked ;~) Anne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:17:46 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni/JT analogy In a message dated 10/21/99 10:31:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bob.Muller@fluor.com writes: << Catherine wondered: <> That's a very COOL idea, Catherine. Of course, she's have to call it, "The NEXT Time I saw Richard"...could be very creative, indeed, all those years later... >> Yeah, right, and someone should turn Dvorak's New World Symphony into a rap song, too. C'mon. Don't mess around too much with the lyrics. A new arrangement is one thing, but other than that I think she'd do better to write more new songs than to "enrich" the older ones. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:23:34 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: revisiting classic joni In a message dated 10/21/99 11:21:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, foa@igc.org writes: << The "second-to-the-last" time I saw Richard >> The Penultimate Time I Saw Richard? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:27:04 -0400 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: Re: revisiting classic joni I Buried Richard Enough said IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/21/99 11:21:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, foa@igc.org > writes: > The Penultimate Time I Saw Richard? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 18:37:09 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: revisiting classic joni LOL - this is great! >Bill writes: > ><< possible remakes: > > The Rearrangement > The "second-to-the-last" time I saw Richard > Song for Sharon's Daughter > >> > >Other possible remakes: > > I Thought I Understood > Sisotowbell Highway > Rusted Tin Angel > For Free, with any Purchase of .... > Help Me, I've Fallen and Can't Get Up > Eh?Jira > >Jimmy > Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 18:42:16 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: RE: revisiting classic joni Silly! I love it! How 'bout: Dog Ate Dog A face lift is the best happiness The great grandsire of sorrow (old) ladies of the Canyon (nursing home) Big Green Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:47:26 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: revisiting classic joni In a message dated 10/21/99 2:45:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cateri@hotmail.com writes: << Big Green >> Grown Green (groan) Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:45:55 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: Joni/JT analogy Paul, aka Mr. Storm Cloud, rains on my parade: <> So Paul, you expect her just to act like every other songwriter out there? Isn't "Chinese Cafe" partially a "rewrite/update" of "Little Green"? I wasn't talking about her doing some cheesy Bob Muller parody of "Richard"...what if she writes a song about going to Richard's funeral, and how she feels about what's unresolved between them and all the accompanying emotions and abstractions...it could be brilliant! You sell her short, my friend... Bob, too much imagination for my own good I suppose... NP: Kool Moe Dee, "Dvorak's New World Symphony" :~D ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #473 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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