From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #448 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, October 7 1999 Volume 04 : Number 448 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- UK JMDL'ers (NJC) ["Phil Klein" ] UK Jimdlers (NJC) [Jamie Zubairi ] Sire of Sorrow ["John Low" ] Kevin in Scotland (was DED unplugged (was Joni talking)) [Jamie Zubairi <] Shadows And Light Live HDCD [Jamie Zubairi ] Re: Dreams [waytoblu@mindspring.com] Sire of Sorrow/Edith Piaf [Medric Faulkner ] Re: Sire of Sorrow [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Re: Sire of Sorrow ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Sire of Sorrow [Siresorrow@aol.com] acoustic guitars [Siresorrow@aol.com] server problems? [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: Shadows And Light Live HDCD [zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny)] Re: The Gospel according to Joni (and yet, NJC) ["Catherine McKay" ] Dweems, Queens, Farrell & Job ["Russell Bowden" ] Re: NJC Baroque/Final Thoughts on Handel's Messiah/ That's It! [Scott and] Re: Shadows And Light Live HDCD [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Re: NJC Baroque ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: NJC Handel Rocks ["Catherine McKay" ] I'm back, and mingus ["Takats, Angela" ] NJC Re: I'm back, and mingus [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Re: Sire of Sorrow ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: NJC Baroque [David Wright ] re. Sire of Sorrow [Linda Worster ] Re: CDR Tree 1 & 2 njc [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Shadows And Light Live HDCD [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Michael Tomlinson Salutes Joni [LLDeMerle ] Re: NJC Handel Rocks [Deb Messling ] Re: Shadows And Light Live HDCD [zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny)] Howling Wolves [Scott Price ] Re: Sire of Sorrow [Ginamu@aol.com] Re:Sire of Sorrow [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Howling Wolves [Mark Domyancich ] Looking Forward and Up =?iso-8859-1?Q?=DD?= (NJC) [Michael Paz ] Re: Shadows And Light Live HDCD [zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny)] Peed my pants (NJC) [Michael Paz ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 08:50:20 GMT From: "Phil Klein" Subject: UK JMDL'ers (NJC) > Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 12:52:08 -0700 > From: "Kakki" > Subject: UK JMDL'ers (NJC) > > I've been seeing and hearing news reports all morning about the terrible > train crash in London. I hope all our UK JMDL'ers are safe. > > Kakki > Thanks for that thought. Yes, it really is terrible - 26 dead so far, and there's still a burnt out carriage they haven't begun to search yet. Phil ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:07:57 +0100 From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: UK Jimdlers (NJC) Dear Kakki Thanks for your concern. I live near there and the underground I take to work goes thru' Paddington Station. That morning I took the bus. Mum was calling up all day yesterday 'all emotion and abstraction' thinking that I was on the train. Thankfully no. Prayers out to those who weren't so lucky. Much Joni Jamie Zubairi ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 03:27:05 PDT From: "John Low" Subject: Sire of Sorrow Scott Price wrote (Digest #445, Mon. 4 Oct.): >Given her history, her unique ability to express what we feel deep >inside >ourselves, and her skill at analyzing and commemorating these >emotions, >I've always believed that no matter what, she still gives >us >hope...*always* gives us hope. An innocent viewpoint perhaps but >one that >I cling to. This is just so true of so much of Joni's work. I recently made a comment along these lines about "Hejira" in a private email to another jmdler. I said that I thought Joni’s probing look at the human condition in this album makes it a very ‘spiritual’ work. After listening to it I always seem to come away feeling that, despite all our flaws, suffering, mistreatment of others etc. our lives DO have significance. John (in Sydney). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:35:12 +0100 From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: Kevin in Scotland (was DED unplugged (was Joni talking)) Dear Kevin in Scotland As I live in the London I would love to hear from you re the DED acoustic tape that you (according to Bob Muller) have. Bob has offered to send it to me but I figured that if it was sent by someone in the British Isles it would be cheaper. Just a thought. Let me know. Jamie Zubairi ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:27:32 +0100 From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: Shadows And Light Live HDCD Dear Gang I was just listening to S&L last night while trying to write and I have never really paid attention to the song S&L on HOSL because it just seemed too over-dramatic. Listening to it last night on the live album, I was brought to tears just by her sing/speaking the words 'governing', much softer and slower than the studio version and much more plaintively. I will need to read the lyrics now to get what I should be getting from the meaning but they are slowly working into my brain. I'm sure that I could recite the words now just because I have heard the album for a good 7 years. Lines that creep up on me are 'Hostage smiles on presidents Freedom scribbled in the subway It's like night night and day' I'm going to go home tonight and re-read the lyrics and see what I can get. Any suggestions? It's a song about contradictions. That I can gather. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 07:46:12 -0400 From: waytoblu@mindspring.com Subject: Re: Dreams "Just beyond the morning falls, The river of your dreams. Escaping from the day, These wild creatures run away. When the evening hides the sun, The water shines deep the moon. Birds sing sweet sonatas while, Your heartstrings play." vlj ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 05:37:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Medric Faulkner Subject: Sire of Sorrow/Edith Piaf With help from Jerry and because Joni had mentioned her respect for her, I began to listen to Edith Piaf last year. My untrained ear seemed to pick up a connection in their vocal phrasing of dramatic lines such as, "Why have you soured and curdled me?" or "... the janitors of shadowland flick their brooms at me." Medric Faulkner ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:14:01 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: Sire of Sorrow Catgirl said: <> I've been enjoying (if that's the right word) the discussion around Job and Sire of Sorrow, as a Christian I feel like I gotta throw in a couple things... 1. Of course, one of the eternal questions in Man's spiritual quest is "Why do bad things happen to good people", and that is part and parcel of what the book of Job is dealing with. But even further to that, Job's three "friends" come to him and try to explain to him why he had all his misfortune: He had sinned, his children had sinned, God is "correcting" him, etc. Of course, this is bullshit. The bottom line is that, like Catgirl said, life can be harsh, and belief/faith in God is NOT some kind of insurance policy that bad things won't happen to us, but rather that faith helps us to handle the bad things WHEN they happen. 2. The Book is actually 2 parts; a narrative that opens and closes the book and tells the basic story, and the center portion which is epic poetry that delves deeper into the soul of the issue. Most scholars agree that it's not a factual account but rather a piece of philosophical folklore, a compilation of several writers. 3. The manifestation of the "bad things happening to good people" concept also occurs in the life of Christ where he is blameless but is brutally murdered. As far as attaching Joni to a particular faith, I don't think it can be done...in her brilliance and in her own personal spiritual journey she has assimilated things from world religion, philosophy, art, history, to create what works for her, and that's what really matters. Does she believe in a higher power? I would say a definite YES to that one. Bob, trying to make up with God for all the MESSiah-bashing :~D NP: Dinah Washington, "You Don't Know What Love Is" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 06:34:24 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Sire of Sorrow > As far as attaching Joni to a particular faith, I don't think it can be > done...in her brilliance and in her own personal spiritual journey she has > assimilated things from world religion, philosophy, art, history, to create > what works for her, and that's what really matters. Amen to that, Brother! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:11:53 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Sire of Sorrow In a message dated 10/6/99 9:17:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bob.Muller@fluor.com writes: << As far as attaching Joni to a particular faith, I don't think it can be done...in her brilliance and in her own personal spiritual journey she has assimilated things from world religion, philosophy, art, history, to create what works for her, and that's what really matters. Does she believe in a higher power? I would say a definite YES to that one. >> i think this is very well said. i might even go so far as to say that this makes of our joni a 'spiritual slut' of sorts, if you don't mind me stealing your line. ss ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:03:05 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: acoustic guitars the november issue of acoustic guitar magazene has a couple of nice articles. one is on buying an acoustic guitar. one is on nylon string guitars. and one is on manufacturers which includes pictures and details on Lakewood, Larrivee, La Si Do- (which includes seagull, godin, la patrie, simon, and patrick), Martin, Ovation, Tacoma, and Taylor. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:15:56 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: server problems? wondering if anyone has weird things happening when posting, like getting answers to posts prior to seeing your post on the list? or posting in the am, and not seeing the post till late in the pm? right now it is 11:07 am est. let's see when this lists. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:19:52 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Re: Shadows And Light Live HDCD Jamie wrote of the song Shadows and Light: <> I've been meaning to ask if anyone else was blown away by Joni's version of SaL she did with The Band on the Unplugged and Jamming recording that's going around the JMDL? Although I love the other versions too, the Last Waltz performance was sooo enjoyable and surprizing, especially after becoming accustomed to the jazz or gospel flavor of her other recordings of it. She apparently hadn't settled in with all the lyrics yet and the musical feel was pleasantly soft and rolling. So much different from what was released commercially! Penny ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:31:29 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: The Gospel according to Joni (and yet, NJC) On the subject of Handel's Messiah, Don said: >I've had the privelege of playing this wonderful work >in it's entirety on numerous occasions, and can tell >you it is an illuminating and humbling experience. >"Unto Us A Child Is Born", "The Pastoral Symphony" and >"Shepherds Tend Their Sheep" still bring me to tears >every time ... > While I will admit I don't think I could listen to the whole thing in its entirety, there are some parts that are particularly uplifting. We get so tired of hearing the Halleluja chorus at Christmastime (when it's really an Easter thing dealing with resurrection) that it becomes almost trite after a while - not to mention the various TV ads and popular movies and TV shows that have used this music for less, uh, sacred purposes. On the other hand, singing the Halleluja chorus is a lot of fun, and very challenging. I love "For unto us a child is born" - it's so joyful and upbeat, it almost sounds like modern music. A choir that I've been in off and on over the last few years, sings parts of the Messiah (at Christmas, of course, here we go again) and as a person with absolutely no training as a singer (we're all volunteers - a few members are probably "professionals", but most of us are just regular shmoes and, since they're hard-up for altos, people like me can get in), it's quite challenging to do Handel, but after a while, he begins to make a lot of sense, and I have to admit, of all the stuff we sing, the Handel is now the most fun. If I do join this year (time permitting) I'd love to ask our choir-leader about doing "Unto us a child is born" - gotta love that. They've probably avoided it because all the trills in bo-o-o-o-o-o-rn may be too much of a stretch for us ordinary mortals - but it would be fun to try. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:57:13 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Handel In the Wind (NJC) Blaspheming Bob slams Handel: >I doubt if even God has heard the whole thing...I'll bet he uses his >heavenly remote control to switch to a sporting event, or to the 700 >Club >for a laugh. > >Maybe if the B-52's covered it and called it "Dance This Messiah >Around"...:~) > >And yes I realize I'm probably gonna rot in burning Hell for my > >blasphemous remarks... > >Bob, really counting on God to have a good sense of humor about this > Bob - I love ya!! I've had a really crappy week thus far and I haven't laughed this hard for a long time. You have made my day. (If God doesn't have a sense of humour, I'm officially becoming an aetheist.) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 11:28:49 PDT From: "Russell Bowden" Subject: Dweems, Queens, Farrell & Job Sounds like an opening act for CSNY?!?! The fact that our Queen is a Scorpio says a lot, I believe, about her dweem references. Being the deepest of the water signs (conduit of dweems) I would think her dream imagery must be a rich storehouse that contributes to the beautiful (and sometimes mysterious) word images she produces to the undying delight of we; her faithful subjects. I, too, am a flaming Opera Aficianado (OK.....Queen!) And have often thought that some of our Queen's songs are nearly operatic in scale as far as grand worldview and twists of the human heart are concerned. Did that make any sense??? Wally K....help me out here! For many years Eileen Farrell was living in my hometown of Castine, Maine. We happened to attend the same church (St Peter's By the Sea) Occasionally I would fill in for the organist and had the pleasure of hearing Ms Farrell sing. As the church and congregation were rather small, her voice did stand out. Hell of a nice lady. Her 'Un bel di' from Puccini's "Butterfly" was one of the first operatic recordings I ever heard....and I've been diva-ing ever since. (Besides Joni...I love to play arias arranged (by me) as piano solos.) Finally, SoS IMHO partly charts the evaporation of Christian-Judeo way of living that was fairly regular up until the NY Times said 'God is Dead' Her line 'you have no name now' stikes me as Joni letting us know through her/Job's conversation (one-sided, to be sure) with God/ess, that maybe God has packed the Heavenly luggage and split for another more God-friendly universe.Though we may not understand the purpose of everything,perhaps Joni suggests we should continue to question the why and wherefore if we don't have the faith to just accept and hope. Thanks for the space, Love, Russ NP me: Batti,batti, o bel Masetto ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 13:56:18 -0500 From: Scott and Jody Subject: Re: NJC Baroque/Final Thoughts on Handel's Messiah/ That's It! Vince, You wrote: > I would suggest that most conductors today keep the pace way too slow > on baroque, and especially on Messiah, which is supposed to move at a brisk pace. > For most Messiah conductors today, > I think that what was part of the problem - it was very slow, not to mention that the venue's furnace was malfunctioning. It must have been 90 degrees in the church. Repetitiveness and heat do not mix. It's no wonder I wanted to go ice skating during the intermission. > The original musicians played in cold, drafty palaces with no > heat... you think they lingered - or zinged their way through the music? They did > not draw it out, they played with passion, verve, and a lot faster pace than we get > today. > Had it been cold in the church and the musicians played with more passion, would I have enjoyed the concert more? I'm not sure. Maybe what Helen, Bob and I feel is evoked in this quote by Johann Sebastian Bach...'From Baroque To Classical' - "The state of music is quite different from what it was...Taste has changed astonishingly, and accordingly the former style of music no longer seems to please our ears"...or what Charlie the Tuna said. I'm going back to lurking. This is too much work :~) Goodbye, jody ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:12:31 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: Shadows And Light Live HDCD Penny asked: <> I thought it was great, Penny - I LOVE when she gives her songs a new feel, like the "Hejira Samba" we talked about a while back. But in response to your statemant about "not being settled in" with SaL, The Last Waltz was post-Hejira so she would have been plenty settled in with it I think. My take on it was that she just gave it a Band arrangement just like she gave Hejira the jazzed-up treatment when she was playing it with the jazzers. Regardless, it's a real eye-opening version...I remember when we played it over the stereo at Jonifest, it raised a few eyebrows...it takes a minute before you can tell what song she's playing! Bob NP: Paul Weller, "The Changingman" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 20:32:25 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: NJC Baroque The Rev. Vince says (yet again, on Handel): >That is the baroque style, and there is art, pure art in the >repeated >motifs, an art and craft that perhaps (obviously?) fails to >move you. <> >The original musicians played in cold, drafty palaces with no >heat... you think they lingered - or zinged their way through the >music? >They did not draw it out, they played with passion, verve, >and a lot >faster pace than we get today. You're quite right. Today, many people seem to think that any "churchy" type of music ought to be played slooowly and sooolemnly to show *respect*. Kind of goes against making a joyful noise unto the Lord. Another reason why I avoid going to church like the plague. The baroque musicians were the rock stars of their day - they were always trying to out-do one another, so they'd have these singing competitions amongst various opera "stars", each one trying to top the other's performance, especially on the ornaments. Unfortunately the only thing I can think of now that is similar (apart from instrument-bashers, and we've already bashed them!) is the god-awful hystrionics of the Mariah Carey's and the Whitney Houston's of the world. Lord, have mercy. That's probably today's baroque, so you can see how low we've fallen. Just thought I'd mention something else - Handel didn't speak English as a first language, so, when he wrote some of his Messiah (and other) bits, he wasn't entirely sure of how English people spoke. So, you get things like "And the glory of the Lord shall be re-veal-ed" with the "-ed" having its own syllable. Vince goes on to say: >So in the 17th century there was Bach; in the 18th, Handel, Hayden, > >Mozart; in the 19th, Verdi, Beethoven, Wagner, and in the 20th, Gershwin, >the Beatles, and Joni. > Viva Joni! Brava, bravissima! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 20:44:03 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: NJC Handel Rocks Vince said: >When I was about six my parents took me to see the Messiah for the >first >time, and I acted like a little pig jerk because the music was >so >unfamiliar to me. And Helen replied: "Oh, this gave me horrible memories (sorry Vince, but I'm siding with my slutty twin brother Bob on this one!) of my childhood! ... I can remember enduring (I'm trying to be polite) three different performances of the Messiah, all in the hot, stuffy, uncomfortable Town Hall in Whangarei (land of my youth!)... I can remember feeling ecstatic every time it finished! The only consolation is that my father disliked it as much as me, and I think I can recall playing noughts and crosses with him when I was about 8, to try and pass the time! ;o)" You poor dears! I've admitted to liking parts of it, some of them, quite a bit, but couldn't POSSIBLY listen to it all at once - and some parts, I could gladly live without altogether. But - I don't know how ANYONE could force a kid to sit through that. It's cruel and unusual punishment. I'm so glad to see you've survived intact;) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 06:48:32 +1000 From: "Takats, Angela" Subject: I'm back, and mingus Hey Listers, I really shouldn't have re-subscribed to the list this early, when I've only just started my new job, but I just missed you guys soooooo much! Hopefully I haven't missed too much joni gossip...I've had John in the Blue Mountains keeping an eye on things, just incase a joni tour 'down under' was announced (I WISH!!!) while I was settling into my new job. (thanks John BTW) I bought Mingus the other day...I've been putting it off for awhile, a bit scared of whether I'd like it or not...I find the whole album fascinating. I knew a lot of the songs from SAL, I love the Mingus version of Dry Cleaner - SO funky isn't it! I must say I have never heard a song as eerie as the Wolves song...Joni is amazing the way she paints a picture with her words and playing..I had chills running down my spin as I listened to it and I've never felt so uncomfortable (if that makes sense) listening to a song, that howling was just scary...I'm sure you've all discussed this song a lot before, but if any new listers would like to share their thoughts on it, I'd love to compare emotions...that way Joni slaps the strings of her guitar to paint a picture of the wolves attacking, well that's what I see...WOW. I didn't know anything about Mingus until this album and I loved the little bits of conversation inbetween the songs - what a colourful character he was...I only wish there was more of him and joni singing together like in the "muggin" snip. Despite this album being SO different to the joni work that I've grown to love (and worship) I really do like it...I respect her for going out on a limb like that, and i think it's so sad that she was ostrasized (I know that's not how u spell that, but hey) by both the folk and jazz communities. Anyway...I hope you are all well and thanks again for all being a part of this list that I have become addicted to. - - Ange Across the deep blue sea in Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:55:12 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: NJC Re: I'm back, and mingus <> Yay!! Welcome back Ange! We missed you too!! Bob NP: Dan Fogelberg, "Ghosts" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 20:57:30 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Sire of Sorrow I really enjoyed your take on "Sire of Sorrow". You said: "One of the key reasons I see the song as uplifting is becasue in time, her story did live out to be job's story, and her family was restored... Me personally, I still see hope in the song. I see faith as well. And I don't think that is a naieve hope or a foolish faith, or a leap. I see it as a gutsy proclamation. A demand of justice. A demand of god. One that only comes from belief. The fact that she would sing the song shows her genuineness and truth. She hides from nothing in the song. And she keeps on living. I admire her courage to say....so...what's the deal, you tireless watcher. What have I done to you? Show your face! What have I done to you?" A few others have said they find this song depressing. I don't find it so - in fact, I find it courageous and gutsy as well. I also think that, inasmuch as it would apply to Joni's personal situation, most of us have been there - gone through periods of horrible bad times where, just when you think it couldn't get any worse... it does. And yet, the bad times do end eventually. You find the courage to go on and you move from living life from day to day (or even minute to minute in a really bad situation) to really living again. I guess one of the ways this song works for me is that often, when things are really getting me down, I'll either write about it or play my guitar or whatever, and the act of writing down the problem puts it into perspective; the act of playing the guitar puts me in touch with beauty. It seems to me that Joni does work these things out by writing and singing about them - which can be a rather cheap form of therapy. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:01:48 -0400 (EDT) From: David Wright Subject: Re: NJC Baroque On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Catherine McKay wrote: > Just thought I'd mention something else - Handel didn't speak English as a > first language, so, when he wrote some of his Messiah (and other) bits, he > wasn't entirely sure of how English people spoke. So, you get things like > "And the glory of the Lord shall be re-veal-ed" with the "-ed" having its > own syllable. Actually, I think pronouncing the "-ed" as a separate syllable used to be common English practice. In Shakespeare's plays (I think), and elsewhere, it could go either way, and if the syllable was meant to be dropped, the spelling would reflect that: "revealed" vs. "reveal'd." But you are right about Handel. I think his not being a native English speaker shows up, *if* at all, in the way some syllables of the text are accented, like "FOR unto us a child is born." (A native speaker might prefer "for UN-to," but I don't think it's really a big deal.) - --David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:38:26 -0400 From: Linda Worster Subject: re. Sire of Sorrow I am catching up on digests- having been away- and am delighted to read the thread on "Sire of Sorrow". This song comforts me deeply. The story of Job is meaningful to me for many reasons. One of them is the many conversations I had with my father (who recently passed on) about the story of Job. In particular, he was interested in Carl Jung's "Answer to Job" and we would go on for hours into the wee hours of the night discussing this and many other amazing subjects. It was utterly wonderful to have these sharings with my Dad. So the song brings me memories of my father, which are comforting. But it's more than that. The story of Job holds so much meaning for those who are suffering. (And it does help to know the whole story to really get the song, I think...) I can't sit and *really* listen to this song without sobbing. I have just listened to TI again (yesterday TTT) and been touched and fed and healed yet again. (LOVED the post(s) about sitting with Hejira- I don't know how many times I have done that with that album... and it *never fails* to satisfy the need for connection and deep healing...) I love the way Joni explores the depths of the human condition with such emotional honesty. She cops to the same feelings I have and often hide... anger and despair being prime examples... I have felt this despair. It *really* sucks... But that *is* how it is at *that* moment. It comforts me that she (Job) starts by saying "let me speak"... Nothing can be done about this awful state of despair except perhaps to speak and maybe by some miracle be heard by someone. Not many people can just listen and not try to either fix it or philosophize about it. I know that when I feel this despair, it helps to speak about it to someone who will just *listen*. "Let me spit out my bitterness..." The expression will purge the bitterness. The song begins with hope. And then tells the story. It is not the whole story... but the song is about the profound sorrow part of the tale. That Joni understands this story, is another affirmation of her integrity... to me... Makes me trust her even more and let her into my soul that much more. Job wishes for some one to hear his tale. My Dad loved to talk about the "friends" that came by to listen to Job and responded with platitudes- "adding insult to injury". Instead of help, the "friends" only make things harder to bear and isn't that just the way life is sometimes? In Job's case and in many cases, circumstances do go from poverty and despair to prosperity and happiness. But in this world, this is not always the case. For some people, the situation does not improve. This story, this song helps me to remember that it is fine to feel all these things, that there is still hope despite the experience of this state of being, and that- however good or bad things are for me- there is always a lot of heavy shit going down in this here world... people *are* suffering... it is important to remember somehow. Thank you Joni... again and again and again... Your songs are unbelievably profound expressions of human experience... running the full spectrum from love and joy to despair and disgust. It helps me just to acknowledge it ALL. Linda NP: silence after listening to TI.... NF (now feeling): gratitude... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:21:18 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: CDR Tree 1 & 2 njc In a message dated 10/6/1999 9:30:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, wallykai@interserver.com.ar writes: << oh my god!!! for a moment i thought you were david foley of the kids in the hall! welcome to the list david. wallyk > Have only just subscribed to the list - > David Foley >> Wait a minute!!! You are not???? RATZ!!!! Catgirl just kidding!!! I love Dave Foley from the Kids in the Hall! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:24:06 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Shadows And Light Live HDCD In a message dated 10/6/1999 1:26:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, zapuppy2@webtv.net writes: << I've been meaning to ask if anyone else was blown away by Joni's version of SaL she did with The Band on the Unplugged and Jamming recording that's going around the JMDL? Although I love the other versions too, the Last Waltz performance was sooo enjoyable and surprizing, especially after becoming accustomed to the jazz or gospel flavor of her other recordings of it. She apparently hadn't settled in with all the lyrics yet and the musical feel was pleasantly soft and rolling. So much different from what was released commercially! Penny >> If you remember we played the CD at Asharas. Not many people realized what song was actualy being played since the song sounds so different with a band. Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 19:01:04 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: Michael Tomlinson Salutes Joni Nice to see these men included in the superior professional company of Joni. At 12:16 PM 10/6/99 +0800, Joseph Palis wrote: >Michael listed a lot of names, but he placed an asterisk on artists "I am >most grateful to for the inspiration and musical companionship". > > >Bruce Cockburn >James Taylor >Joni Mitchell >Andreas Vollenweider (isn't he the one who plays harp?) >Van Morrison >Gordon Lightfoot >Dan Fogelberg >America >Elton John >Beatles >Elvis > > >Its nice to see Joni in good company and in a company of men. :-P LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 19:03:37 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: NJC Handel Rocks Okay, I loved Handel's Messiah even as a little kid. I think partly it was a Pavlovian response to anything connected with presents. As a *very* little kid, I remember liking the chorus "O We Like Sheep" because I liked sheep, too. Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ ~there are only three kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:03:40 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Re: Shadows And Light Live HDCD <> Ya know, Catgirl, I didn't hear it being played then.....I must have been to busy visiting with that very engaging lurker John vanTiel. ;-) Or maybe it was one of the other wonderful members of the lost tribe of Joni? At any rate, I think my priorities were in order since I already had the CD...thanks to you, Cat! ;-) Smiles Penny ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 16:09:18 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: Howling Wolves At 06:48 AM 10/7/99 Angela wrote about "Mingus:" >I must say I have never heard a song as eerie as the >Wolves song...Joni is amazing the way she paints a picture with her words >and playing..I had chills running down my spin as I listened to it and I've >never felt so uncomfortable (if that makes sense) listening to a song, that >howling was just scary... "Mingus" is one of my favorite Joni albums. I was a budding jazz musician at the time of its release and while I had been very attracted to Joni's music earlier I felt like she really "broke through" into the jazz world with this one and it offered just one more bit of synchronicity for me. Anyway, this is a LONG re-post, but a Joni-story/quote that I love. It's from an interview Joni gave to "Musician" in 1983 and takes a while but will eventually work back to "The Wolf That Lives in Lindsey," which remains at the top of my consciousness these days after listening to Marian's amazing presentation. Following is the text, taken from in the articles section. "There's a song called "The Wolf That Lives In Lindsey." It was a live duet between Don Alias and myself; it's a strange piece of music, in that it's an example of a song that has a structure that I had completely ignored. I dropped beats, I added beats, there's bars of 3/4 that are in there, and there's all kinds of abbreviated signatures. Don was thrown into a highly alert position as a drummer, to be able to follow this thing, which was not maintaining a groove, just bursts of rhythmic passages. It was very spontaneous. And, when the thing was over, we figured that magic had, in fact, occurred. As raw as it was, and as technically peculiar as it was, you couldn't beat it for spirit. And I turned to Henry and said, "You know what we need on this now? We need wolves and water gongs." And, that was on a Wednesday night. So he was going to make it a project over the weekend to look through the A&M library of sound effects, and we were going to get some wolves." "So, anyway, that weekend I had company coming from Texas, and I had company coming from Canada at the same time. And simultaneously I was supposed to be at the Bread & Roses Festival. When my guests arrived, coming already from long distances, I had to tell them, "We're moving now!" And we all went to this festival in San Francisco. Things kinda got screwed up and there were some vibes around the whole situation which I won't go into, that made me very introspective. And I noticed at dinner that night, that my introspection was also making the table introspective. So, I thought, "I don't want to be here in this mood with these people, I'm influencing their mood," and so I excused myself. I had told a friend of mine, Tim Hardin, that I was gonna meet him back at the hotel. So I get to the hotel desk, and I say to a very uptight desk clerk, you know, "Would you please give me Mr. Hardin's room?" And he replied, "Can't you see I'm busy?" He was really uptight. The lobby of the hotel was gigantic, and suddenly, across the hall there came a drunk, singing "Why Do Fools Fall In Love?," stumbling across the lobby, snapping his fingers, right? I had nothing but time on my hands, so I perked up, because suddenly there was externally something interesting (laughs), and I was drawn across the hall, and I linked up with him, and we came back across the hall, singing "Why Do Fools Fall In Love?" We ended up standing by the desk, with this uptight guy in the background, and the next thing I knew, we had drawn in two more singers who turned out to be the Persuasions. Well, when we stopped singing, everybody was in great spirits, we all laughed, you know, we patted each other on the back, and we shook hands. "So now," I say to the guy, "Would you give me Mr. Hardin's room," and somebody in the crowd yells, "Oh, Hardin's in the bar." So I go into the bar, there's a kind of loungey jazz band playing, and Hardin is pissed out of his mind, and he comes dancing towards me through this crowded room here, singing to the band, "Hello, Joni," and doing improvisational lyrics. So I start dancing towards him, singing "Hello, Timmy! So good to see you!" The bartender says, "What would you like?" And I sing to him, "One white wine," and the bartender raises his hand in the air, and sings back, "One white wine." And the next thing, the whole room was engaged in this spontaneous Broadway show. Anyway, the story hasn't come to an end yet. Now, we're all in very high spirits. We discover that there's a party on the third floor. We go up to this room, and all the way up the hallway—you know, Timmy and I are hamming it up, just being goofy. We get into the room, and suddenly, the same guy that was drunk in the lobby singing "Why Do Fools Fall In Love?" comes up to me and says, "I have a tape of some wolves." And I say to him, not even realizing how profound it is, "Oh, I'm looking for a tape of some wolves. I'll write down my address and you send it to me." He said, "No, I mean, I've got it on me." So I said, "Okay," and he produced this box of tapes, all homemade with labels on them, and we thumbed through it. It was all African animal sound effects. Well, the very last entry was wolves. So he loaned me his tape recorder, I put the tape on, and it was a cycle of a wolf—-it starts off with the lead wolf, and then you hear yipping of pups and female voices, you know? And then he goes, "Aaaooo-aaooh-abh." Like, the same yelp, but one note up higher in the scale. And then the yipping of the pups, and the females. And the thing was looped about four times. Well, the first time I did "The Wolf That Lives In Lindsey," I just hit the button right at the beginning, picked up the guitar, and uncannily, it was the perfect key. The way the loop was designed, if you started it at the top of the tape and went all the way to the end, it fit the structure perfectly. So anyway, the next night when I went to the concert, my friend Joel Bernstein hooked the tape up and for an encore, I came out and we did this song and we blasted the wolves, mixed them in with the song, and the audience when I was finished singing, some clapped, but most of them howled me back on for another encore. So you see, there's still ways to get spontaneity into a show." I try to imagine Joni feeling a bit apprehensive about all the turmoil that's going on around her and right in the middle of all this she discovers, out of nowhere, this tape of howling wolves that just happens to be in the right key and also just happens to sequence perfectly with her song. Isn't it interesting how the creative process works sometimes? :-) Scott ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:30:26 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Sire of Sorrow In a message dated 10/5/99 11:25:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, CaTGirl627@aol.com writes: << True the words are harsh but so is life. Sometimes when you look out into the world and see all the shit that goes on and you wonder why God why?? >> I find SoS cathartic. It's not a nice song but I feel better after I listen to it. Take care, Gina NP: Western Wall - Emmylou Harris/Linda Rondstat (Thank you, Mark in Seattle! It was good the first time but it's getting even better with repeated listenings) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:51:23 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re:Sire of Sorrow I've enjoyed reading all of the posts regarding SoS, and I've learned quite a bit from them. I even talked with a preacher/friend while working out at the gym today. My Bible history is *extremely* rusty, and he told me all about the Book of Job. My small contribution to this wonderful thread is that I never thought about "Sire of Sorrow" as either uplifting nor one of sadness. I just know it's my favorite song on TI, and it's one which I love to BLAST the stereo to the max. I sing as loud as I can overpowering Joni's voice (you wouldn't want to be around). Anyway, I just love to scream out that song while the dogs and my partner run for cover! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:48:14 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Howling Wolves At 4:09 PM -0700 10/6/99, Scott Price wrote: >And I turned to Henry and said, "You know what we need on this now? >We need wolves and water gongs." Didn't she mean "Water BONGS!!!" :-D ___________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua | | ICQ: 21619464 AIM: CalifKitch | |_________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 23:08:34 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Looking Forward and Up =?iso-8859-1?Q?=DD?= (NJC) Hello Joni List- I sent this post off to the CSNY list, but wanted to share it with you guys as well. I buried my friend Eric Kolb today who was a keyboard player and production manager with the Neville Bros. It is an incredibly sad day for me and I am a little out of it. I ran into alot of folks at the funeral and it is a weird time for me. Eric had a bad substance abuse problem and was in rehab. It seemed to be working and he looked great and seemed to be doing well, but the beast reared it's ugly head one more time and took him away. I know he is at peace, but at too high a price for his little girls and the rest of us that will miss him very much. I rode across Lake Ponchatrain today at noon with my friend Chopper from the House of Blues (we went to college together at USL). Chopper and I had a music store back in the early 80's and we met Eric when he was very young and recommended him to the Nevilles (specifically Art). He started working for them as a production tech and eventually was second keyboard behind Art. Three of his compositions can be heard on the Neville's Family Groove album. "On The Other Side of Paradise" which was mostly his tune, "Line of Fire" & "Family Groove" which were cowritten with others. His playing can be heard on Live From Planet Earth and Mitakuye Oyasin Oyasin/All My Relations. Chopper and I listened to Looking Forward (The upcoming CSNY release in October) on the trip up and then back and it was such a comforting sound to have playing. I love this record and so far my faves are: Dream For Him, Seen Enough, Someday Soon, and Sanibel. As I told Doc privately today I reserve the right to be closely in touch with my feminine side and change my mind often about my faves. I am way behind on my digests, but hope everyone is well and the list is not burning up. Michael (off to read some lists till I close my eyes) NP-True Reflections-Dave Matthews Band ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 23:26:27 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Mutt Bob wrote: "To further support Eric's statement, I've got a live version of the tune where Joni introduces it's to be sung by someone who's "high-yellow", or light-skinned, meaning a child of an interracial relationship..." I think you guys interp is right on here. As I think I have stated before on the list, I was abused by many aggressive red neck types and have been called a high yella, nigga, spic, queer, you name it. It use to really affect me badly now I wear it like a crown. I kinda dig "mutt" cause it really fits where I am. As far as I know I am Mayan, Irish, English, Spanish, German, and BORN in the USA. In New Orleans we'd call that quite a gumbo. In my book I can pretty much hang in any neighbourhood and it's only flaky repressed folk with their heads up their arses that I still threaten with my colour or shade. While I say "frankly my dear I don't give a damn" that's not really true cause it still hurts sometimes especially when Mikey says shit like, "is it cause I'm brown?" Peace, Michael NP-Always-Jonatha Brooke (I love this song!) P.S. I've always enjoyed blondes, but decided on a brown mutt. sigh! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 21:35:11 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Re: Shadows And Light Live HDCD Bob wrote: <> Well, slap my ass and call me Judy! :-D (Did I quote your neighbor right Evian?) Or maybe since I'm listening to Armatrading, it should be "Well, slap my face and call me Joannie!" ;-) Brother Bob, you're absolutely right. I totally spaced out on the dates! Maybe my error was cuz it just feels so much less polished.... the wonderfully casual feel and the lyrics that came across as a more impromptu. Geez, and her delivery was fabulously loose too! Everything about it is just great! And while were talking about alternate versions, does anyone else prefer her version of Number One done at Amnesty International over what was put on CMIARS? Penny NP Armatrading...(I Love It When You) Call Me Names ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 23:36:02 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Peed my pants (NJC) Bob wrote: "And you are totally free to get your rush, while I rush away in the opposite direction. You know what really gripes my butt about The MESSiah? Take the line... "And the government shall be upon his shoulder..." It's 12 syllables long, right? WRONG!! Handel the lazy lyricist takes that 12-syllable line and stretches it over about 100 beats of music so the meter is all screwed up... And the guh-uh-uh-uh-uh verment sha-a-a-a-a-a-al be-e-e-e-e-e-e-e upo-o-o-o-o-o-o-n his sho-o-o-o-o-o-o-older. I feel like standing up and yelling to the soloist, "Spit it out willya!! Get to the damn Hallelujah chorus so I can get home and have a cold beer or something, this is driving me batty!! I doubt if even God has heard the whole thing...I'll bet he uses his heavenly remote control to switch to a sporting event, or to the 700 Club for a laugh. Maybe if the B-52's covered it and called it "Dance This Messiah Around"...:~) And yes I realize I'm probably gonna rot in burning Hell for my blasphemous remarks..." Bob- I peed my pants on this one. By the time I got to the 12 syllable line over 100 beats, it was a full blown stream and a puddle at my shoe. I needed to read something like this and thank you from the bottom of my heart. I was planning on doing this is my next Joni set, but out of respect for your opinions I will not. BTW YOU ARE a slut. Kiss on My List-Hall and Oates. I can't wait to tell my friend Susan. I also meant to tell you guys I caught Emmy and Linda at the House of Blues last night and it was incredible. What a show! Check em out if they come bayou. Michael NP-10¢ Wings-Jonatha ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #448 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?