From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #446 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, October 5 1999 Volume 04 : Number 446 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Sire of Sorrow [M.Russell@iaea.org] RE: Joni mentioned in opera rag!!!! ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: NJC Handel Rocks ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: NJC Janis and Handel ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: NJC Handel Rocks [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: Dreams(JC) [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: The Gospel according to Joni ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Sire of Sorrow ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Dreams [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] re: Gospel According to Joni (NJC) [David Wright ] Re: The Gospel according to Joni [Phyliss Ward ] Whiny White Kids [Phyliss Ward ] NJC Roll over Handel [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Sire of Sorrow [Siresorrow@aol.com] Singing Joni in Wien (NJC) [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: Singing Joni in Wien (NJC) [Scott Price ] Re: Singing Joni in Wien (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] RE:Dreams ["David Greenspoon" ] Re: Dreams(JC) [Siresorrow@aol.com] CDR Tree 1 & 2 ["David Foley" ] RE:Dreams [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] RE: Sire of Sorrow [Louis Lynch ] More Joni Dreams ["Kakki" ] Re: Dreams(JC) [Susan McNamara ] UK JMDL'ers (NJC) ["Kakki" ] RE: Mingus [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] RE: Talking Joni (wait just a darned minute ...) [Don Rowe ] quote ["Bill Dollinger" ] Re: The Gospel according to Joni ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: The Gospel according to Joni ["Eric Taylor" ] RE: CDR Tree 1 & 2 ["Wally Kairuz" ] Jonatha Brooke playing Elmer, NJ (SJC) [Brian Gross ] Re: Singing Joni in Wien (NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Marge DeLaWhatever (NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] Jonatha Brooke Tour Schedule (NJC) [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Joni's Brilliance [CaTGirl627@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:45:19 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: Sire of Sorrow Mark in Seattle wrote: > But I still love the song and every once in awhile > I sing it to myself with a quick thought to > whatever-force-it-is-that-through-the-green-fuse- > drives- the-flower that I really *don't* feel this way > about my life. Yes! I couldn't even listen to SoS at all until recently. I totally loved the music of the song when I first heard it, but knew that if I played it repeatedly, as I like to do with beautiful songs, I'd have to live with the negative words looping through my head for months/years as nearly all of Joni's songs do. I really didn't want to be saying to myself repeatedly "you make everything I dread and everything I fear come true"! I was afraid of the song - of its potential to negatively program me. But somehow I overcame that fear. I think it has to do with putting myself into the character of Job when I sing/hear the song and telling myself "this is Job, not me", which is what Mark said above. We know Joni has had a lot of personal hardships and we also know she has said that not all of her songs are personal - that many songs are just portraits. SoS certainly fits in with the cover portrait as the final statement on TI, and she has said that the TI portrait was personal, but also kind of tongue-in-cheek, so perhaps SoS is similar. Maybe Joni sought comfort in the story of Job at some point and then felt inspired to write his story into a song. Whatever is true, she certainly left out the happy ending where Job's wealth/health/family are restored and I personally don't find much happiness or comfort in the song. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 05:01:47 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Joni mentioned in opera rag!!!! it's a well-known fact that i'm a screaming opera queen. however, until a few years ago i thought the farrell sang only jazz! i had two of her albums of standards and i was SO surprised when i found a cd of opera arias in tower records. i must confess that i didn't like her italian very much, but her voice was so chesty and resounding that i kept the cd anyway. i liked her much better when i heard her highlights of brünnhilde's and isolde's parts. wallyk Don wrote > ... Eileen Farrell -- I couldn't agree more, that woman's voice > was regal! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 01:29:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Holliston Subject: re: Gospel According to Joni (NJC) Gosh, Bob, such vehemence ;-) You have every right not to like Messiah. I just wonder sometimes whether it's wise to dismiss a masterpiece as you apparently did on one hearing. Sometimes the performance just isn't very good. Also, great works of art (which Messiah is, and I write this as a statement, not an opinion) often (usually? always?) need more than one exposure to make the full grandeur of their presence felt. I agree with Don Rowe: Handel is far from a one-hit wonder, and I'd add his increasingly produced operas to Don's list (especially Giulio Cesare). I've willingly sat through Messiah many times, and it always seems short to me. My own favorite numbers are the opening tenor "Comfort ye, My People/Every Valley," "Comfort Ye," "He was despised," and "I Know That My Redeemer Liveth". Plus all the choruses, and everything else. I'm glad you didn't have a pistol, too!! Who'd have you shot? The performers?? Yikes!! Roberto, promising here and now to send Bob M. a Messiah tape that will change his mind :-))) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:00:14 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: NJC double jeopardy (bs) Rev Vince wrote: >Sorry. The movie premise is from the same school that gives us soap >opera law (which sucks even in my favorite All My Children) and the >dismal court room procedure in the movie Philadelphia (I movie I wanted >to love until court room practices were toyed with to suit the cinematic >purposes). The legal premise of this Double Jeopardy movies is not >palatable, in my opinion. I mean no disrespect whatsoever, but I'm a little surprised that this movie has been the subject of so many posts on the list, in regards to it's "shaky" legal ground. Since when has Hollywood ever NOT made a movie because of an unbelievable premise! I could think of a hundred examples, but I'm sure everyone could think of as many themselves! Just wondering what the fascination is with this particular movie? Is it because it purports to be believable, or is it just really obviously bad!? Helen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:11:39 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: NJC Handel Rocks Rev Vince wrote: >When I was about six my parents took me to see the Messiah for the first time, >and I acted like a little pig jerk because the music was so unfamiliar to me. Oh, this gave me horrible memories (sorry Vince, but I'm siding with my slutty twin brother Bob on this one!) of my childhood! My mother has sung in a local choral society for years, and I can remember enduring (I'm trying to be polite) three different performances of the Messiah, all in the hot, stuffy, uncomfortable Town Hall in Whangarei (land of my youth!). I'm sure I said I enjoyed it, to spare her feelings, but I can remember feeling ecstatic every time it finished! The only consolation is that my father disliked it as much as me, and I think I can recall playing noughts and crosses with him when I was about 8, to try and pass the time! ;o), much to the disgust of the people around us! Helen NP - Shona Laing - Soviet Snow (from the album South. FYI, Shona Laing is a NZ artist who performed with Manfred Mann in London for a while, then came home and recorded several albums. She's well worth checking out if you get a chance, and you like female singer-songwriters. She had a big hit here with "(Glad I'm) Not A Kennedy" which got another airing recently on the local radio stations. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:19:19 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: NJC Janis and Handel Rev Vince wrote: >But the real reason I write tonight is I haven't checked the JMDL yet so >someone else may have posted this but this is the anniversary of Janis >Joplin's death, and I still shed a tear or two or more. For me it always has >been Janis and Joni, the Beatles and Neil Young, above and beyond. And Janis >was very special in my life. Next month I hope to see "Love, Janis" in >Chicago... I never got to see her in her lifetime (and I will bittterly regret >to my dying moment the day when I said, "Oh, we'll see Janis next time she's >in Chicago") so I am rather excited about this. Every time I go to this particular bar, which has a jukebox, everyone gets really annoyed with me, because I always program the same three songs - One Good Man, Kosmic Blues and Mercedes Benz (there's no Joni, in case you were wondering)! Mind you, they're starting to learn the words, so my cunning plan is working! I should also say that jukebox's over here are more likely to have the Spice Girls or Brittany Spears, than anything actually worth listening to - hence my persistence in playing Janis at every opportunity! I always wonder what Janis would be doing these days if she was still around? I doubt she'd have much of a voice left, but then I thought that about Joe Cocker too, and he's still going strong, so who knows!? Helen NP - Shona Laing - The Bishop ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 07:51:59 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Handel Rocks The Rev imparted: <> Count me among the fervent devotees of Handel's Messiah, ya'll. I never gave the piece much thought, really, until my mother took me along when she sang in a chorale composed of all the major chorale organizations in New York City as part Carnegie Hall's 100th anniversary celebration a few years back. They performed the Messiah. The late, great Robert Shaw conducted. I had never been to the venerable Hall, and the occasion couldn't have been more auspicious, so I was mostly excited by those aspects, not paying much mind to what would be sung. The event was broadcast live on PBS, but there was to be no audience in the hall that night. The placed was filled from pole to pole with impassioned professional chorale singers. But there, I was. As I recall, there were thousands of sopranos and altos in the balcony and mezzanine and many scores of tenors, baritones and basses in the orchestra circle and on the floor. I have rarely experienced anything as profoundly beautiful and moving as the music I heard that night. The sheer power and glory of it all moved me to tears then and still inspires awe even as I reminisce. The experience lifted me up and placed me beside myself. I was well into my twenties at the time, but I remember being so thankful that my mother was close at hand. I needed her like a newborn. Through my sobbing I excitedly tried to form words to communicate to her how wonderously affected I was...how real God seemed to me in those moments and how I had to fervently praise Her/Him, starting right away! It was an epiphany for me, I struggled to explain. That was the only way I could describe the experience. I had the irrepressible sense that the Divine Being had just been manifest to me through this *truly* awesome music. With a mother's smile of utter omniscience, her own eyes glistening with water, she just held me close and whispered softly in my ear, almost singing, "I know, baby, I know. Hallelujah." - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:24:26 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Dreams(JC) In a message dated 10/4/99 8:32:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, magicflute@mindspring.com writes: << not to mention all the references to dreams in at least 20 other songs(that I could find,anyway)M >> And then there is the reference to being denied the right to dream in the Magdalene Laundries: "Sentenced into dreamless drudgery..." From Otis and Marlena there is the line: "It's all a dream she has awake" And how about: "Given in the night to dark dreams from the dark things she feels..." from Shades of Scarlett Conquering. "...I'm building all my dreams around you, our happiness will never cease..." from Centerpiece, though I know Mandel and Hendricks wrote that one. Gina NP: Paul Simon - The Rhythm of The Saints ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 06:36:05 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: The Gospel according to Joni > I should have included There Lives A Wolf In Lindsey which contains this > priceless statement: > "If you're smart or rich or lucky > Maybe you'll beat the laws of man > But the inner laws of spirit > And the outer laws of nature > No man can...." > E.T. > I think this is a bit of a stretch. The inner laws of spirit could apply to many different systems of belief, not necessarily those that follow The Gospels. Btw, I believe The Gospels applies to the New Testament, does it not? That would leave Job out. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 06:43:37 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Sire of Sorrow Whatever is true, she certainly left out the happy > ending where Job's wealth/health/family are restored and I personally don't > find much happiness or comfort in the song. > > Marian > Vienna > Good point, Marian! Why would she leave this part out if she were trying to convey some kind of resolution or hope? I don't think Joni was feeling very hopeful when she wrote this or when she wrote most of the songs on TI. And we all know she is sometimes brutally honest in her songs. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:46:40 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: Dreams <> Lisa, One you omitted is one that is a key to her use of dreams, I think. From "Silky Veils of Ardor"..."It's just in dreams we fly, in my dreams we fly"...(she references the quote too on the jacket of the record) Dreams are fascinating to me. My thinking is that in dreams our brains try to make sense of all the emotions, feeling, and actions that are taking place in our lives, and attempt to resolve problems, guide us to solutions, or in the case of the best ones, have some great sexual encounters! :~) I think Joni's songs and characters present so much emotion and strong feelings that dreams are a refuge, dreams are a destination, either to escape reality or to exercise imagination, to live the kind of lives they want to. I'm sure that the concept has been covered before, but it's certainly a broad topic and as you've noted, Joni's songs are rife with dream imagery... Bob NP: Louis Jordan, "I'm Gonna Move to the Outskirts of Town" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 09:55:11 -0400 (EDT) From: David Wright Subject: re: Gospel According to Joni (NJC) On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Robert Holliston wrote: > I just wonder sometimes whether it's wise to dismiss a masterpiece as > you apparently did on one hearing....great works of art often (usually? > always?) need more than one exposure to make the full grandeur of their > presence felt. Yeah! Like PJ Harvey's _Rid of Me_! - --David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:01:21 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: RE: Talking Joni Patrick, wearing his Larry-colored glasses, writes: <> Well, it also puts into perspective the 40-something gay men who are so enamored with him they have totally lost their sense of objectivity! LOL!!! Bob NP: Louis Jordan, "Choo Choo Ch'Boogie" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:16:04 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: RE: Mingus All this talk about Mingus made me stick it in my bag yesterday and listen to it on the bus. This is a brave, beautiful piece of work and I was thinking while I was listening to it that this new album of standards is going to be a showcase for how amazing a jazz singer Joni really is. Her voice is a beautiful instrument and it was really doing pushups during Mingus. As far as the conjectures on the meanings of the lyrics, I think it's very important for anyone who is truly interested in this subject to read Mingus' autobiography, "Beneath the Underdog." Joni obviously read it and a lot of the references in the songs can be traced back to that book. Has anyone here read it? I started it and never finished it (the story of my life, I'm always reading 8 books at the same time and never finishing one of them). If you have, set me straight on this one. My favorite song on the album (giving it a 5.9 to Dry Cleaners 5.8) is Sweet Sucker Dance. I'll listen to it on the ride home again tonight and then change my favorite song to The Wolf ... Take care, Sue ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ weekend email address: suemc16@webtv.net "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 07:36:04 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: The Gospel according to Joni Mark or Travis wrote: > > I should have included There Lives A Wolf In Lindsey which > contains this > > priceless statement: > > "If you're smart or rich or lucky > > Maybe you'll beat the laws of man > > But the inner laws of spirit > > And the outer laws of nature > > No man can...." > > E.T. > I think this is a bit of a stretch. The inner laws of spirit could > apply to many different systems of belief, not necessarily those that > follow The Gospels. Btw, I believe The Gospels applies to the New > Testament, does it not? That would leave Job out. I agree Mark. I never saw Joni as a Chistian. In fact, I could swear I have a video interview done with Joni just after TI was released where she proclaims that she is basically a Buddhist. - -- Phyliss pward@lightspeed.net http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 07:48:00 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Whiny White Kids A few weeks ago I went to see Tori Amos and Alanis Morrisette in concert here. I'm really not a fan of either but my 19 year old daughter-in-law-to-be loves Tori like I love Joni so I figured I should give it a try. Tori's sound mix was terrible. All I could hear was bass and drums. Too bad, because her strongest point, in my humble opinion, is her piano playing, followed by her voice. But she is so overdramatic! Yuck! In a way she reminds me of Laura Nyro, who I love, but can only take so much of at a time because to the drama. Alanis' sound was a bit better but she was still very drowned by her band. Whose responsibility is this anyway? And the few lyrics that I do know of hers (since I couldn't hear the words) are pretty whiny too. Can you imagine going to see Joni and not being able to hear the words???!!! Alanis' stage manner is remeniscent of Joe Cocker. This was the worst concert I've been to in a while. Not to mention that I felt very old among all the juveniles there. Oh yes, the Joni content! I went to the ladies room during the intermission and came back in to hear the last snips of "The Dry Cleaner from Des Moines" playing over the loudspeakers. I figure either Tori or Alanis must have chosen this cut for their intermission, a small thrill for me, and a point for them.... - -- Phyliss pward@lightspeed.net http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:56:49 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: NJC Roll over Handel Just some final thoughts from me as well on the whole Handel thing... Jody my twin said: <> Jody girl, trust your inner voice...you gotta sing when your heart says sing, and you gotta RUN when it says RUN! :~) Roberto said: <> Just to clarify, I have heard The MESSiah about 10 times (not the full-blown crock, mind you), and each time it's the same reaction. Doesn't mean it sucks, just that I don't care for it. And I have reached the age where I can be like Charlie the Tuna's fish buddy and say "Bob doesn't like music with good taste, Bob likes music that tastes good!" And if you send me a tape Roberto, be sure to leave the tabs in it so I can tape some Joni over it! :~D Julius told a great story: <> Glad you had this reaction to it and it means so much to you Julius, I have a feeling your Mother's presence added to the beauty & majesty of it. You sure made me feel pretty schmoey for poo-poo'ing it...:~) Vince said <> So you were GUILTED into liking The MESSiah! :~) I'll leave the resolution of this one to Dr. Siggy... Bob NP: U2, "I Will Follow" (live) -------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. -------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:20:52 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Sire of Sorrow What a great thread running. One of the key reasons I see the song as uplifting is becasue in time, her story did live out to be job's story, and her family was restored. And, I must confess that I did not know the song before her reunion, so that definately flavors the song for me, as I only had the perspective of her happy ending. Had I heard the song in '94, I might have felt differently. On WTRF she does Love which comes straight from the new testament, only she does a joniesque rearrangement of the last paragraph which changes the flavor of the piece entirely from the one written by paul. But in the case of Sire of Sorrow, she does not change much of anything, nor does she detail an ending. But her text comes almost verbatum from the book of Job, with only her stylistic touches, rather than substantive changes. To that end, I'm going to list a few quotes from the book that stand out to me in the song. Me personally, I still see hope in the song. I see faith as well. And I don't think that is a naieve hope or a foolish faith, or a leap. I see it as a gutsy proclamation. A demand of justice. A demand of god. One that only comes from belief. The fact that she would sing the song shows her genuineness and truth. She hides from nothing in the song. And she keeps on living. I admire her courage to say....so...what's the deal, you tireless watcher. What have I done to you? Show your face! What have I done to you? But, I also view the world through eyes of faith and that affects my perceptions. I'm an eternal optimist and when I suffer disappointment and anguish, I try to never let go of hope. Lastly, I also see the song in full context of TI, which starts with Sunny Sundays and ends with Sire of Sorrow and includes a complete theme of justice in several of the 'in between' songs. Chap.3 - Why did I not perish at birth, come forth from the womb and expire....I should have been at rest with Kings and counselors...there, the wicked cease from troubling and the weary are at rest... For what I fear over takes me, and what I shrink from comes upon me... Chap 7- I will speak in the anguish of my spirit, I will complain in the bitterness of my soul My flesh is clothed in worms and scabs, my skin cracks and festers You affright me with dreams and terrify me with visions Oh, you watcher of men Why have you set me up as an object of attack? Why should I be a target for you? Chap 10- I will speak form the bitterness of my soul. Let me know why you oppose me. Is it a pleasure for you to oppress, to spurn the work of your hands, and smile on the plan of the wicked? Have you eyes of flesh, do you see as a man sees. I should have been taken from the womb to the grave. Chap.21- Why do the wicked survive, grow old, become mighty in power...these folk have infants numerous as lambs, and their children dance...yet they say to god, depart from us, for we have no wish to learn your ways. Chap.23- Though I know my complaint is bitter, his hand is heavy upon me in my groanings. Oh that today I might find him, that I might come to his judgement seat. Chap. 31- Let the almighty answer me! Chap 42- I have dealt with great things that I do not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I can not know. I had heard of you by word of mouth, but now my eye has seen you. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:23:05 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Singing Joni in Wien (NJC) The band I'm in did a gig last Friday night and I did a couple of Joni solos at the beginning of the second set - Big Yellow Taxi and You Turn Me On I'm A Radio. After the gig, when I was putting my equipment away, a couple of guys came up to me and told me that they play pretty acoustic music regularly at another local club. During their breaks they have open mike and other musicians get up to perform and mostly musicians attend these sessions. They said I should come to the next gig and do some songs! One of the guys is apparently an expert on open tunings and wants to get together with me to share information. He asked me about the tuning I used for All Along The Watchtower and knows Michael Hedges' music! Anyway, I felt very happy to get this chance to meet and perform for some other musicians in Vienna, and *especially* to find someone else here who enjoys playing in open tunings. The session will be on November 5. Right now I'm planning to play Barangrill, Ray's Dad's Cadillac and maybe The Wolf and/or Moon At The Window, depending on how much time I'm allowed. If I meet some Joni fans at the session, I'll let you know. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 10:05:57 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: Re: Singing Joni in Wien (NJC) At 05:23 PM 10/5/99 +0200, M.Russell@iaea.org wrote: >They said I should come to the next gig and do some songs! >Right now I'm planning to play Barangrill, Ray's Dad's Cadillac >and maybe The Wolf and/or Moon At The Window Congratulations Marian! I was given the opportunity to hear a tape of some of your renditions of Joni songs from the recent Labor Day Jonifest and I was totally blown away by your version of "The Wolf That Lives in Lindsey." This couldn't possibly be an easy song to play but you have done a fantastic job with it. Good luck at your next gig, and please let us know how it turns out. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:09:43 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: Singing Joni in Wien (NJC) <> And if they're *not* fans, they will be after they hear YOU! I'm very jealous of anyone who gets to hear you perform...enjoy the gig, and do let us know how it went... Bob NP: Louis Jordan, "Ain't Nobody Here But us Chickens" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 10:14:48 PDT From: "David Greenspoon" Subject: RE:Dreams Lisa Writes: She has written several songs with "Dream" I agree that dreams seem to be a dominant component to a lot of Joni's songs but not just the word dream being used in her lyrics I also find that most of her songs (for me at least) feel like they are in a dream. For instance:"The last time I saw Richard" from Blue feels surreal, like in a dream. David I'm traveling in some vehicle I'm sitting in some cafe A defector from the petty wars That shell shock love away... - -JM ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:49:43 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Dreams(JC) very cool post. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:12:25 +0100 From: "David Foley" Subject: CDR Tree 1 & 2 Have only just subscribed to the list - saw a message about a CDR tree. I would dearly love to participate in the tree. Can anyone please send me more info. Best Wishes David Foley ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:25:07 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: RE:Dreams David said: <> That's funny, because I feel the exact OPPOSITE about 'Richard'. To me the images are SO specific that it's not dreamlike, but rather cold hard reality. Of course, it's all in what you see and what you bring to it. On the other hand, "Paprika Plains" is quite the dreamscape - first she's floating back in time, then she's floating back into dreams, and even says "I dream Paprika Plains"...and after the series of surreal images, she sings, "I'm floating back to you"... Bob NPIMH: Aerosmith, "Dream On", Fleetwood Mac, "Dreams", Everly Brothers, "All I Have to do is Dream".... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:47:18 -0700 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: Sire of Sorrow Good thread, "All this talk about holiness now, must be the start of the latest style." Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 12:29:18 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: More Joni Dreams From "The Dawntreader" Fold your fleet-wings, I have brought some dreams to share A dream that you love someone, a dream that the wars are done, A dream that you tell no one but the gray sea They'll say that you're crazy and dream of a baby Like a promise to be free, children laughing out to sea From "Cactus Tree" There's a drummer and a dreamer Kakki NP: (Coincidentally ;-) Sting - After the Rain Has Fallen - "after the dream has broken there'll still be love in the world" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:13:37 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Dreams(JC) Obviously, one of my favorite dream references is "It's all a dream she has awake" but this morning when I was listening to Mingus this section from Chair in the Sky made me rethink my sig: Daydreamin' drugs the pain of living Processions of missing Lovers and friends Fade in and fade out again In daydreams of rebirth I see myself in style Raking in what I'm worth Next time Love those dreams, sue ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ < weekend email address: suemc16@webtv.net "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 12:52:08 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: UK JMDL'ers (NJC) I've been seeing and hearing news reports all morning about the terrible train crash in London. I hope all our UK JMDL'ers are safe. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:28:01 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: RE: Mingus Sue said: <> "Brave" is a wonderful word for it, Sue. And I agree, I think Joni's Standards project is going to be huge for her in terms of recognition. So many critics and music folk as well as the general public who don't "get" her music will have a chance to just enjoy that sterling voice without having to "bother" with looking at lyrics, etc. I played the version of "The Man I Love" for my Dad the other day and he really liked it. There may be hope for the old boy yet! :~) <> I haven't, I'd heard of it but I thought it was the autobiography of Sweet Polly Purebred! (This joke for cartoon junkies only) Seriously, thanks for mentioning it, I've put it on my book list. I just got the new Thomas Harris yesterday from the library and only have 2 weeks with it... Bob NP: Robyn Hitchcock, "Uncorrected Personality Traits" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:36:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: RE: Talking Joni (wait just a darned minute ...) - --- Bob replies to Patrick: > > < perspective all the > 40-something > straight men who decry larry's influence.>> > > Well, it also puts into perspective the 40-something > gay men who are so > enamored with him they have totally lost their sense > of objectivity! LOL!!! Wait just a darned minute! Since when has baggin' on my supposed "influence" on Joni EVER had anything to do with sexual orientation? Men and women ... straight, gay, bi-, trans-, nons-, and fetishists of every ilk & flavor --have all given Uncle Larry the bum's rush over DED ever since it's release ... and you thought I wasn't paying attention. ;-) Larry Klein ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:39:16 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Sire of Sorrow About a month before Turbulent Indigo came out I met a friend on the street and of course he knew I was a big Joni fan. He said, "Hey, did you hear that Joni is dying of cancer?" You can imagine the way my heart sank when I heard that. At the time I didn't have the Joni Mitchell Home Page to verify the rumor so when I heard Sire of Sorrow for the first time I really thought Joni was expressing her anguish about her illness. Much later I read an article on the jmdl that explained the root of the rumour: ======================================================================== Before Joni Mitchell consulted a mystic healer on the matter of the bleeding lesion in her throat, she asked some conventionally qualified, AMA doctors about it and they informed her it was what Sammy Davis Jr had. The late Sammy Davis Jr. They told her it was caused by smoking and gave her five years. Five years later when Joni Mitchell tells this story, we are approximately half way through our interview and she is approximately half way through a packet of Marlboro Lights. Mitchell chain-smokes, and it's one of the smoothest chains you've ever seen. As her left hand stubs one out, her right is already loosening the next from the packet. She's been smoking since she was nine - maybe literally - and she wasn't about to quit simply because her voice packed up during a video shoot and doctors were showing her fibre optic shots of an open wound on her larynx. "I grasped that smoking was an irritant," she says, "I didn't believe it was a cause." So (and here the story takes a mildly Californian twist) she sought a second opinion from a Hawaiian mystic called Oleta. "She's a two-powered mystic. With you fully dressed and lying on a table, she can see into your body by going wall-eyed, seeing light and shadow through your clothes. I said, 'Look in my throat, Oleta. Do you see death there?' 'No,' she said. This sounds so crackpot: she sent me water. The water was electrically charged and commanded to sluice and slowly restore. She fixed me. "It's healed up. My voice is fragile, but I do believe I'm singing better than ever in my life. I'm on the brink of being a great singer. I've lost my high end but I don't miss it - you don't need it. I had three and a half octaves, all of that stratospheric stuff was just trying to impress. Billie Holiday had seven notes. And what she did with it." From London Independent article, October 1994 ========================================================================= So now I just think of Sire of Sorrow as just another one of Joni's more chariscuro prose poems on the Book of Job! (boy is that a pretentious line or what!!!) :-) ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ weekend email address: suemc16@webtv.net "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:47:25 -0400 From: "Bill Dollinger" Subject: quote I just found this quote in microsoft bookshelf: There are things to confess that enrich the world, and things that need not be said. Joni Mitchell (b. 1943), Canadian-born U.S. singer, songwriter. Independent (London, 13 May 1988) Bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:40:05 -0400 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: The Gospel according to Joni I wrote: <<....I should have included There Lives A Wolf In Lindsey which contains this priceless statement: "If you're smart or rich or lucky Maybe you'll beat the laws of man But the inner laws of spirit And the outer laws of nature No man can...." >> Mark responded: << I think this is a bit of a stretch. The inner laws of spirit could apply to many different systems of belief, not necessarily those that follow The Gospels. Btw, I believe The Gospels applies to the New Testament, does it not? That would leave Job out. >> I've read "The Gospel of Wicca" & think Joni's lyric (above) speaks for the Old Religion as well. Gospel means Good News & we could all use some more of that. E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:44:56 -0400 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: The Gospel according to Joni Phyliss wrote: << I agree Mark. I never saw Joni as a Chistian. In fact, I could swear I have a video interview done with Joni just after TI was released where she proclaims that she is basically a Buddhist. >> Well I agree with Mark & Phyliss. My original point was that I love it when Joni puts music to biblical themes. This doesn't mean that I think Joni is Jewish or a Christian. E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:31:35 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: CDR Tree 1 & 2 oh my god!!! for a moment i thought you were david foley of the kids in the hall! welcome to the list david. wallyk > Have only just subscribed to the list - > David Foley ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:25:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Gross Subject: Jonatha Brooke playing Elmer, NJ (SJC) From the Appel Farm website (http://www.appelfarm.org/evening_concerts.htm): "** Limited Seating - Order Early ** Jonatha Brooke Friday, October 29, 1999 8:00PM Tickets: $22.00 advance/$25.00 on the day Jonatha Brooke made headway through the 90s with her jazz-influenced songs and a voice that appealed to older Joni Mitchell fans and also to the younger set. Since being released from her major record label contract, she has attracted even larger record sales through her own masterful use of the internet. Appel Farm audiences will remember her as one half of the story, who made their regional debut at the Arts and Music Festival way back in 1993. Jonatha's popularity has made major strides since then and this promises to be a sold-out show! " As of Tuesday evening Oct 4, there are only about 70 tickets left for a venue that only seats 250. If you'd like to see her (I sure would), please email me offlist by Wednesday evening Oct 5 so I can get the tickets. Take care, Brian np: NPR, The World ===== "No paper thin walls, no folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 20:41:32 -0400 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: NJC Handel Rocks What you wrote was simply beautiful, Julius! Thanks for sharing. Heather At 07:51 AM 10/5/99 EDT, JRMCo1@aol.com wrote: > >Count me among the fervent devotees of Handel's Messiah, ya'll. I never gave >the piece much thought, really, until my mother took me along when she sang >in a chorale composed of all the major chorale organizations in New York City >as part Carnegie Hall's 100th anniversary celebration a few years back. They >performed the Messiah. The late, great Robert Shaw conducted. > >I had never been to the venerable Hall, and the occasion couldn't have been >more auspicious, so I was mostly excited by those aspects, not paying much >mind to what would be sung. The event was broadcast live on PBS, but there >was to be no audience in the hall that night. The placed was filled from >pole to pole with impassioned professional chorale singers. But there, I >was. > >As I recall, there were thousands of sopranos and altos in the balcony and >mezzanine and many scores of tenors, baritones and basses in the orchestra >circle and on the floor. I have rarely experienced anything as profoundly >beautiful and moving as the music I heard that night. The sheer power and >glory of it all moved me to tears then and still inspires awe even as I >reminisce. The experience lifted me up and placed me beside myself. > >I was well into my twenties at the time, but I remember being so thankful >that my mother was close at hand. I needed her like a newborn. Through my >sobbing I excitedly tried to form words to communicate to her how wonderously >affected I was...how real God seemed to me in those moments and how I had to >fervently praise Her/Him, starting right away! It was an epiphany for me, I >struggled to explain. That was the only way I could describe the experience. > I had the irrepressible sense that the Divine Being had just been manifest >to me through this *truly* awesome music. > >With a mother's smile of utter omniscience, her own eyes glistening with >water, she just held me close and whispered softly in my ear, almost singing, >"I know, baby, I know. Hallelujah." > >-Julius > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 20:45:47 -0400 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: The Gospel according to Joni >> I think this is a bit of a stretch. The inner laws of spirit could >> apply to many different systems of belief, not necessarily those that >> follow The Gospels. Btw, I believe The Gospels applies to the New >> Testament, does it not? That would leave Job out. > >I agree Mark. I never saw Joni as a Chistian. In fact, I could swear I >have a video interview done with Joni just after TI was released where >she proclaims that she is basically a Buddhist. >-- Can we call Joni Job-less then? Just playing around with words :-) Heather ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:01:15 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: The Gospel according to Joni > Mark or Travis wrote: > > > > I should have included There Lives A Wolf In Lindsey which > > contains this > > > priceless statement: > > > "If you're smart or rich or lucky > > > Maybe you'll beat the laws of man > > > But the inner laws of spirit > > > And the outer laws of nature > > > No man can...." > > > E.T. > > I think this is a bit of a stretch. The inner laws of spirit could > > apply to many different systems of belief, not necessarily those that > > follow The Gospels. Btw, I believe The Gospels applies to the New > > Testament, does it not? That would leave Job out. > > I agree Mark. I never saw Joni as a Chistian. In fact, I could swear I > have a video interview done with Joni just after TI was released where > she proclaims that she is basically a Buddhist. > -- > Phyliss I don't know about a video interview but I remember reading a quote of hers that said something like (this is when she & Klein were still married) 'I'm Buddhist by practice and Jewish by injection' and then she laughed. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:08:42 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Singing Joni in Wien (NJC) ) > At 05:23 PM 10/5/99 +0200, M.Russell@iaea.org wrote: > >They said I should come to the next gig and do some songs! > > >Right now I'm planning to play Barangrill, Ray's Dad's Cadillac > >and maybe The Wolf and/or Moon At The Window > > > Congratulations Marian! I was given the opportunity to hear a tape of some > of your renditions of Joni songs from the recent Labor Day Jonifest and I > was totally blown away by your version of "The Wolf That Lives in Lindsey." > This couldn't possibly be an easy song to play but you have done a > fantastic job with it. Good luck at your next gig, and please let us know > how it turns out. > > Scott > I had to sneak up closer to Marian when she played this so I could watch how she does it. It was truly inspiring and amazing. Marian is incredibly talented. Play on, Marian! Dazzle them! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:40:04 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Marge DeLaWhatever (NJC) The 'Talking to Americans' sequence on 'This Hour > >Has 22 Minutes' is sometimes an absolute riot! > > > > I'm surprised anyone outside Canada would *get* most of it! Maybe the fact that I live with a man who watches the CBC even when the National is on might have something to do with it. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:59:28 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Jonatha Brooke Tour Schedule (NJC) October 6 Santa Rosa, CA – KRSH Radio "Backyard Concert" 26 Geneva, NY - The Smith Opera House 27 Amherst, MA - Frontroom-Campus Center/Amherst College 29 Elmer, NJ - Appel Farm Arts & Music Center 30 Oneonta, NY - Dewar Agora Theatre/Hartwick College November 1 St. Catherines, Ontario, Canada - Isaac's Pub 2 London, Ontario, Canada - Forwell Hall-Student Union Bldg./Fanshawe College 3 Toronto, Ontario, Canada - The Hangar/University of Toronto 4 Clinton, NY - Fillius Events Barn/Hamilton College 5 Palatine, IL - Building J Theatre/William Rainey Harper College 6 Indianapolis, IN - Rehearsal Studios 7 St. Louis, MO - Generations Nightclub 17 Winnipeg, Canada - University Grind/Univ. of Manitoba Students' Union 19 Calgary, Alberta, Canada - Liberty Lounge (12:00 Noon show) 19 Calgary, Alberta, Canada - The Blue Banana/Univ. of Calgary (4:30pm show) 20 Salt Lake City, UT - Zephyr Club ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:13:36 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's Brilliance In a message dated 10/3/1999 12:29:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, magicflute@mindspring.com writes: << Robert..What a beautiful post! Since I was 16(I'm now 47) I knew how incredibly brilliant Joni was(and still is!) I will always be amazed and uplifted by her beautiful lyrics(yes I really do LISTEN to those words!)When the world becomes too much to bear at times I do exactly what Jennifer did and allow Joni to "cradle" me.Joni has helped me thru much despair in my life and has been a great source of emotional nurturing when no one else was around or when no one else seemed to truly understand what I was feeling or what I needed.All I can say is that I love Joni dearly... Lisa >> My regards EXACTLY!!!!!!! Catgirl NP: night in the city- sec. fret sets ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #446 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?