From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #435 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, September 27 1999 Volume 04 : Number 435 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Bootlegs - was shutting down someone on ebay....(NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: was Bette Midler, then Mame, then back again (NJC) [Joseph Palis ] Re: Reply to Gina, and a movie ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: David Bowie (NJC) [Jason Maloney ] RE: 'blair witch' (NJC) [Anne Sandstrom ] RE: Joni remasters/hdcd's [Anne Sandstrom ] cd tree [KCooper984@aol.com] Re: was Bette Midler, then Mame, then back again (NJC) [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Mingus ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Harry's House - > dealing with naughty cats - NJC ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: new music & movies (NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: David Bowie Eurythmics & SNL (NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: new music & movies (NJC) ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Joni remasters/hdcd's ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: hissing demos, VIDEO TREE 3 [Bounced Message ] Re: 'blair witch' (NJC) [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: Reply to Gina, and a movie ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Bootlegs - was shutting down someone on ebay....(NJC) [WirlyPearl@aol] Re: Ethiopia [Susan McNamara ] Re: NJC: Movies, CarRadio, Dishes and Games ["Catherine McKay" ] David Bowie (NJC) ["Phil Klein" ] Public Eye (was: Reply to Gina, and a movie) [Ashara@aol.com] RE: WTRF [Susan McNamara ] RE: WTRF [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Re: eBay & Death of a thread (NJC) [kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)] Bethel offer [kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)] RE: WTRF [Susan McNamara ] RE: WTRF [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Re: that picture at the back of 'For the Roses' ["P. Henry" ] RE: WTRF [Susan McNamara ] Re: PWWAM [Martin Giles ] dts [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Bootlegs - new proposed eBay policy (NJC) ["Kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 01:08:30 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Bootlegs - was shutting down someone on ebay....(NJC) Mark wrote: > Coming out of the shadows momentarily to comment on this. The bad thing is > is that eBay allows the sell of bootlegs and there is little one can do to > stop it. Numerous petitions have been written to eBay but nothing has been > done. I had a discussion with someone awhile ago about the "bootleg" issue. Based on his research and a discussion with a Federal prosecutor, he learned that what is considered an illegal bootleg in the eyes of the law is out and out counterfieting of a product already out on the market. An example of this would be if someone copied the actual Taming the Tiger album onto CD-Rs and sold them on eBay under market price. In such a case, both the record company and the artist *is* being cheated. It was his understanding, however, that there is no clear law about recording and selling a copy of a live performance, for example, and that law enforcement does not expend resources attempting to go after those type of "bootlegs". There are massive amounts of these types of "bootlegs" circulating for most all popular artists. I don't think the record companies may even have any legal standing to pursue an action against them, unless it was a direct rip-off of a product they contracted for and manufactured. Maybe the artist themself would have legal standing, but I don't know if it would be worth it to them to pursue it. Ultimately, all these "bootlegs" end up with their fans who are buying their "official" product anyway. Of course, I am just relating this all third hand and have not studied this aspect of the law, but it kind of makes sense to me. Mary and the other attorneys on the list - I'd be interested in your thoughts on this issue. Nonetheless, I have recently heard on another list that eBay is going to clamp down on all these types of sales. Kakki NP: Beatles - Think For Yourself ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:58:18 +0800 (CST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Re: new music & movies (NJC) On Sat, 25 Sep 1999, Mark or Travis wrote: > Irene Kral - Live Wasn't she the singer in THE BRIDGES OF MADISON COUNTY? Joseph ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:18:04 +0800 (CST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Re: was Bette Midler, then Mame, then back again (NJC) I went to a music store last evening and asked the salesclerk to dig a couple of Bette Midler albums -- no stock! Anyway, he recommended that I buy BATHHOUSE BETTY which was her latest (?) outing. It was kinda cool. I like "Song of Bernadette" best because I heard Leonard Cohen and Jennifer Warnes sing it. Plus the song itself is beautiful. Its an okay album. I can imagine Bette singing Sophie Tucker songs. Her voice seems tailor-made for those irreverence. Unrelated: What makes a singer a gay icon? Who decides? The male salesclerk I consulted last night said that Midler is a gay icon. The only gay icon I know is Donna Summer and Liza Minnelli. Joseph np: Vanessa Rubin "His Eye Is On The Sparrow" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 21:58:13 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Joni Sleeves Catherine wrote: >I will say though, that I didn't get that much out of "Ethiopia" either, >although, in all honesty, I have it on vinyl, the record player broke, so I >haven't heard the album in years. At the time, I thought the song might >have been written because it was almost expected at the time that writers >comment on the international scene. Not that I would normally expect this of >Joni but I somehow found the song a bit "false". Maybe because aat the >time, everyone was doing "Aid" songs like "Do they know it's Christmas over >there?" and "We are the world" and all that, in which every famous person >and his/her dog participated, to the point where it started getting >ridiculous. That is exactly my take on "Ethiopia" as well! It always felt to me (probably incorrectly - my opinion, remember!) that it was a belated effort to jump on the "Let's sing about some poor third world" band-wagon (no pun intended)! I'm sure Joni's motivations are probably a lot less shallow than that - maybe it was just bad-timing on the part of her record company (although they probably thought it was perfect). But "Ethiopia" is the only Joni song I can really remember hearing on radio over here - student radio, admittedly, not commercial, but she doesn't get a lot of air-play! Helen NP - A Day In The Garden ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 22:15:42 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Reply to Gina, and a movie I originally wrote: >And Helen replied: "I'll probably get flamed for this one, but I've always >thought that anyone who "puts" themself in the public eye by becoming a >performer, should "expect" people to want to know about their lives. >And personally I've always thought that in order >to do well in the entertainment industry, you have to be somewhat conceited, >and hence like the attention, or you'd never make it." And Catherine replied: >Well, OK, if you're out in public, then I supposed you have to expect to be >recognized and deal with it. >Some people think that if you're in the public eye, they have a right to >walk into your house and go through your personal things (and I mean that in >both the physical/literal sense as well as in the emotional/figurative >sense I should clarify that I don't think I (or anyone else) has this as a "right" - I was really just pointing out that with fame and fortune goes a lot of other crap that you may not necessarily want, but have to deal with as part of the "job". How people in the public eye deal with the media, fans, etc. can make or break a career in a lot of cases. If Joni was consistently rude and intolerant of her fans - refusing to sign autographs, etc. - would this list have as many devoted fans? You could argue that we're here for the music, but if she was really nasty, I think it would probably make a difference! And how many people still think Michael Jackson deals with fame in a completely normal and sane fashion? Personally I think the guy not only has a few screws loose, but somewhere along the line, half of them have fallen out and been replaced with silly putty. But that's just my opinion (I don't like his music either - come on, someone get the flame-thrower out, I'm feeling reckless!). You also asked: >>And (bad as it may be) how many have read Brian Hinton's book?! > >I can honestly say, I haven't. Did I miss much? Well, I'm not the best person to comment. I wouldn't be able to separate the fact from fiction in the most part, since I'm just not that familiar with Joni's history, but the general concensus is that he did a pretty bad job. Lots of missing or just plain incorrect information. Other's may be able to explain it better than I can. Helen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 11:39:23 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: David Bowie (NJC) Azeem and marcel, Here's another Bowie fan, though my introduction to his music was Let's Dance rather than the 70s recordings, so as a result my apprecation of the ealier work has been through retrospective collections and such. I think Azeem is right when he says the 80s were not perhaps Bowie's best period, although he still came out with gems like Loving The Alien, Absolute Beginners, New York's In Love, When The Wind Blows and This Is Not America in the mid-to-late 80s. I also loved You Belong In Rock and Roll, from the 2nd Tin Machine album. I also agree that the superb Black Tie White Noise and Buddha Of Suburbia signalled a return to his best. What did you make of Earthling, Azeem? I think the much trumpeted drum'n'bass element to that album wasn't entirely accurate, aside from Little Wonder. It's not an easy album to listen to sometimes, but I still like it. I've only heard Thursday's Child once, when he did it on Top Of The Pops at the weekend. It didn't sound too bad, though amongst all that junk such as Da Ba Dee, the Vengaboys and Get Get Down, almost anything would sound awesome ;-) Much has also been made of his new image, which personally comes over as "Dad trying to look like a modern teenage". Still, image has always been an integral part of Bowie, but I found it rather distracting. After all these years, and all the various guises, come 1999 he's ended up with lank brown hair and a hooded grey sweat-top. Kind of "anti-image", I suppose, if I'm being charitable :-) Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 08:19:07 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: RE: 'blair witch' (NJC) My only comment after seeing this movie was to my boyfriend: "I was going to tell you about the time I saw the worst movie ever made, and now I don't have to." This movie (I hesitate to even call it that) was excruciating. Not a scary moment in it. If you like watching three teens bickering, swearing, and crying and are frightened by bundles of sticks, then this movie is for you. Otherwise, forget it. Anne sorry if I burst your bubble Wally... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 08:23:39 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: RE: Joni remasters/hdcd's There are a few things I'd love to hear fixed on Joni CDs (and maybe they have been - I bought each CD the moment it was issued...) - - get rid of the 'click' at the end of Chelsea Morning - - remix Shades of Scarlett Conquering so that it's not quite so muddy (something is too 'hot' but I'm not sure what...) - - make the tracks of FTR not 'bleed' into one another (I always thought it was just dust on the needle of my turntable that was the cause of this - then it was true on the CD TOO!) Anne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 08:46:08 EDT From: KCooper984@aol.com Subject: cd tree Hi All! I don't know how I missed the CD tape tree but would someone be able to make these for me??????????????????? Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease????? Thanks! Sue ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 09:16:17 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: was Bette Midler, then Mame, then back again (NJC) Joseph Palis wrote: > Unrelated: What makes a singer a gay icon? Who decides? The male > salesclerk I consulted last night said that Midler is a gay icon. The > only gay icon I know is Donna Summer and Liza Minnelli. Well I can't imagine why I would be tackling this, but........ Gay icons are, strangely enough, hardly ever gay themselves. Only recently, because things are much more open now, have those who have "come out" been regarded as gay icons. Examples include Rudy Galindo, Ellen Degeneres, Melissa Etheridge, Elton John, Sir Ian McKellen, Nigel Hawthorne, etc. Classic gay icons are almost always women, fabulous women who are strong, vulnerable, exciting, and greatly talented. They can come from any of the arts. Examples, other than you have mentioned, include Marilyn Monroe, Maria Callas, Bette Davis, Tallulah Bankhead, Babs, Dorothy Parker, Judy Garland, Elizabeth Taylor, Joan Crawford, and Joni's fave, Edith Piaf. Classic male gay icons, such as James Dean, are rare. In Bette Midler's case, she sort of bridged the generation gap. She actually started her career by playing directly for gay audiences in NYC and then appeared at early gay rights rallies in support of gay rights. Jerry Jane Olivor - So Fine ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 09:19:16 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: 'blair witch' (NJC) Anne Sandstrom wrote: > My only comment after seeing this movie was to my boyfriend: "I was going to > tell you about the time I saw the worst movie ever made, and now I don't > have to." > > This movie (I hesitate to even call it that) was excruciating. Not a scary > moment in it. If you like watching three teens bickering, swearing, and > crying and are frightened by bundles of sticks, then this movie is for you. I couldn't agree more. The most over-hyped movie of the decade. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 13:20:22 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Mingus Catman said >As for Mingus-well i own it just to make my collection complete. i >have >listened many times, trying to l.ike it, but to no avail. I don't have Mingus yet, and the only song I've heard is "The Wolf that lives in Lindsay" because I bought the "Hits" and "Misses" CDs before I realized you could actually still buy some of the older stuff on CD. i must admit i had to listen to the Wolf quite a few times before I began to appreciate it musically. One day not too long ago, while listening to it, it all began to make sense. There was an actual pattern of verse and refrain and so on that struck me quite suddenly - and I do want to get the whole CD now. But I can see how it wouldn't be for everyone, and there is no point trying to force yourself to like something just because someone else thinks you should. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 13:31:33 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Harry's House - > dealing with naughty cats - NJC In response to my suggestion about pulling a cat's tail, I must admit what a jerk I am - you definitely SAID Maine Coon, but I was thinking Manx (no tail, therefore, nothing to pull.) Well, that went over like a lead balloon. Sheesh. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 06:33:46 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: new music & movies (NJC) > On Sat, 25 Sep 1999, Mark or Travis wrote: > > > Irene Kral - Live > > Wasn't she the singer in THE BRIDGES OF MADISON COUNTY? > > Joseph > > One of them, yes. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 06:44:12 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: David Bowie Eurythmics & SNL (NJC) > > Here's another Bowie fan, though my introduction to his music was Let's > Dance rather than the 70s recordings, so as a result my apprecation of > the ealier work has been through retrospective collections and such. (snip) Still, image has always been > an integral part of Bowie, but I found it rather distracting. After all > these years, and all the various guises, come 1999 he's ended up with > lank brown hair and a hooded grey sweat-top. Kind of "anti-image", I > suppose, if I'm being charitable :-) > > Jason. Bowie was on the SNL 25th anniversary show last night. He did look pretty goofy standing there with Jerry Seinfeld. I didn't think their schtick was too funny (I don't really like Seinfeld). They showed a clip of Bowie performing in a lovely skirt and high heels. The Eurythmics were also on. I was kind of disappointed that they did a greatest hits medley but they did make it kinda bluesy and Annie Lennox was burning up the stage. What a voice! What a singer! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:02:03 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Gods and Monsters (NJC) Michael tells us that, in Gods and Monsters, >Lynn Redgrave was unbelievably good. I didn't even realize it was her >till half way thru the movie. She plays the old mans housekeeper. > I didn't realize until I read it here that that was Lynn Redgrave, so thanks for pointing that out! Her character was very interesting - although she appeared to disapprove of the Ian MacKellan character's "lifestyle", it was very obvious that she was really very fond of the old guy. You'd see the two of them sitting together watching his old movies on TV, more like an old married couple who are totally used to each other than a master/servant relationship. And Ian MacKellan was verrrry good - you had to love the old boy, naught and nasty tho' he could sometimes be. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:30:48 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: new music & movies (NJC) >re DVD-it would be great to own one of these but here they are very >expensive. I think this is all part of a nefarious plot to get us to buy even more technology, and to render video and VCRs as we know them, obsolete. Maybe people weren't buying enough... ;) >Oh, does anyone know if katherine Hepburn is still with us in body? >the >last i heard she was ill with Parkinsons, poor woman. As far as I know, Kate is still very much alive. I don't know about the Parkinsons though - to me, she has the symptons (my Dad has Parkinsons), but apparently she claims it's something else that causes her symptoms (unless she has since said she does have it.) There are a number of other conditions and medications that can cause Parkinsons-like symptoms. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:33:04 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Joni remasters/hdcd's To add to Colin's request, >Could someone list the Joni cd's available that have been redone? I >seem >to remember someone mentioning that STAS was re-mastered for cd >recently. if that is so, is it any better? I'd like to ask, how do you know if you're getting the "remastered" or the "unremastered" version - would this be obvious on the package somewhere? I'd hate to go out and buy the CD versions of some of the albums (which I have on vinyl) only to find out that they've been remastered and then kicking myself for buying the wrong version. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 09:08:12 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: hissing demos, VIDEO TREE 3 From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 22:42:07 EDT In a message dated 9/24/1999 7:47:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, RMuRocks writes: << Catgirl working on CD Tree vol. 2 >> Hurry up with that CD tree already! And what about the video tree, Catgirl!? You need to quit goofing off and ge.t to work! (I'm joking, sweetie!! Retract those claws...) New subject: Little Joni mention in the morning paper, from a Boston Globe article actually...it talks about Meshell Ndegeocello's "Bitter" and compares it to the sadness of Blue. Bob NP: Go Tell The Drummer Man - Second Fret Sets >> OK OK!!! I just got my other NEW printer thanks to good all Pat Mead!! Friends talked me into the EPSON photo stylus 750 printer so I took a chance on that. What a disappointment after seeing Pat's gorgeous pics from his HP 710 C printer. So after he informed me that it was on sale cheap( $120.00) so I bought that too! Will buy a SCANNER next (and Les I promise!!). Anyway, once I get that set up I will make the video tree cover (it is done just needed a better printer) and will send it to Les to send to a site where everyone can download. This will make it easier for whoever helps with the video tree. All they have to do is make a tape and not worry about the cover. All of you can enjoy putting it on your own video box! AS well, I have found out that the video of the BBC is longer then 2 hours so I have decided to make it ONE Video tree (for now) and just put on 1969 and 1974, IF this goes over well then I would like to make video tree 4 with the Whistle stop extra and then add other clips that are not on Video Tree 1 and 2. I have a cool show of her on VH-1 during the Night Ride Home Cd. Marian Russel already has it. (How do you like it Mairan? ) I need to make one video at a time since I am also in charge of CD Tree 2. That goes under way soon for people who want to be leaves. I am still waiting for more branches to sign up. So anyone with a CD burner either freestanding or in your computer and would like to help out PLEASE go to the tape trees and sign up! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 11:09:05 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: 'blair witch' (NJC) I thought the actors were good, especially the young woman. Otherwise I agree that it wasn't scary and the megahype was totally unjustified. D LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 15:16:11 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Reply to Gina, and a movie Helen said: >I was really just pointing out that with fame and fortune goes a >lot of other crap that you may not necessarily want, but have to >deal with >as part of the "job". How people in the public eye deal >with the media, >fans, etc. can make or break a career in a lot of >cases. Definitely. It's another double-edged sword. You want to be recognized for your work and make a living at it, but then you hit the big time (for some people it happens almost overnight, whereas others struggle along for years before gaining any kind of recognition) and you realize you can't even go out to the drugstore or the local pub without being recognized. For my part, I wouldn't mind being rich, but don't think I could take famous! >And how many people still think Michael Jackson deals with fame in a >completely normal and sane fashion? Personally I think the guy not >only >has a few screws loose, but somewhere along the line, half of >them have >fallen out and been replaced with silly putty. It probably happened while he was having various body parts removed/ deleted/ altered. There's probably no one who can be really honest enough with the guy to tell him enough is enough, and encourage him to go for therapy. (Real therapy, not some quack who takes his money and encourages his lunacy.) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 13:21:59 EDT From: WirlyPearl@aol.com Subject: Re: Bootlegs - was shutting down someone on ebay....(NJC) > Mark wrote: > > > Coming out of the shadows momentarily to comment on this. The bad thing is > > is that eBay allows the sell of bootlegs and there is little one can do to > > stop it. Numerous petitions have been written to eBay but nothing has been > > done. > And Kakki wrote: > > Nonetheless, I have recently heard on another list that eBay is going to > > clamp down on all these types of sales. After checking the bulletins on eBay, this is the latest that I've found on the subject of bootlegs on eBay. It appears they are cracking down on the problem. Pearl Sept. 17th, 1999 *** CD-Rs, BACKUP SOFTWARE AND MOVIE PRINTS*** Dear eBay Community: For some time, we’ve been reviewing our policies on the sale of software and music on CD-R (compact disk-recordable), backup software and 35mm & 70mm movie prints (those big reels in the movie theatres) on eBay. In examining the sale of these items, we’ve found some instances where users lawfully sell software and music on CD-R, and backup software. That’s why we’ve permitted these items to be listed on eBay to date. However, we’ve been contacted by government agencies investigating piracy on the Internet, copyright owners, as well as concerned users about the sale of these items. These constituencies are concerned that most CD-Rs and backup copies are being sold in violation of the rights of a copyright owner. The truth is unless you are the copyright owner, our experience is that the sale of a large number of these items is unauthorized and therefore infringing. After months of internal debate and discussions with our community, we will have to disallow these items to be listed on eBay, except where the seller is the copyright owner. We believe that this will best serve the goal of providing a long-term, sustainable marketplace for our community to do business. We understand that some users will be disappointed by this decision, and we’re not happy about having to make it either. Our goal when creating these policies is to provide guidance that will help protect buyers and sellers from liability, encourage responsible trading, and avoid any potentially unlawful sales on eBay. Since a policy like this will impact those of you who have legitimately bought and sold these items on eBay in the past, we want to discuss it with you. We’ll be hosting a Q&A session on Wednesday, September 22, 1999 from 10:00 – 11:00 PDT on the Discuss eBay’s Newest Features board. We’ll be prepared to answer your questions as well as to give you an opportunity to suggest how we might make these policies clearer and easier to understand. Please take a look at the policies, which will be effective on October 17, 1999 at: Software on CD-R http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/upcoming-software-cdr.html Music on CD-R http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/upcoming-music-cdr.html Backup Software http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/upcoming-software-backup.html 35mm & 70mm Movie Prints http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/upcoming-prints.html Each of the policies also contains a link to a Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) page, which answers some of primary questions you might have about these policies. Thanks for your understanding and cooperation. Regards, Randy and Tim, the product guys ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 13:37:58 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Ethiopia >First speaks Paul I.: > ><< melody > as the Ethiopian desert is of water.>> > Ethiopia is not one of my favorite songs but I have to disagree with Paul here for one reason. The Bridge: Little garden planet Oasis in space Some hearts hurt They can hardly stand it Famine phantoms at the garden gates The deep longing in that chord change gets me everytime. And I rank this song only slightly higher than Ray's Dad's Cadillac for the best imitation of a skipping 78. My two cents, Take care, Sue NP: I'm So Tired of Being Alone, Rev. Al ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ weekend email address: suemc16@webtv.net "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:38:18 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: NJC: Movies, CarRadio, Dishes and Games Loved your post re: singing in the car and family get-togethers. >(We sang mostly camp songs on the family weekly hour >drive, after Sunday high mass, from Pennsylvania to Ohio to my >Grandmother's for your standard Sunday afternoon Italian dinner.) >We >would sing: "The cruel war is ranging, Johny has to fight.. You had higher brow taste than us. Ours were more along the line of "A hundred bottles of beer on the wall..." On the other hand, if we could find anything that would annoy another sibling, such as deliberately screwing up the words to a song they liked, or singing it offkey, then that was fair game too. >Most 1960's Car dialogue went as follows: >me: "Daddy please open the window...your cigarette is making us >sick, >Diane's going to throw up any minute, I mean it!!!!!" I was always the one who was going to be sick too, but it was motion sickness, since my parents didn't smoke. Well, my mother did, but never in the car. She used to sneak off to the bathroom for an hour or so with her ciggies, her coffee and the morning crossword puzzle - it was the only door in the house she could lock, so she could get away from the rest of the family. >Placating Mother: >"Keep singing then, it will get your mind off of it." My mother, bless her heart, always made sure she had a supply of goodies to start handing out bit by bit when the going got rough. At church, it was animal crackers when we kids got bored and started acting up (that only works until you're about 7 though.) On long car trips, there would be family-size chocolate bars or candies that she would dole out bit by bit. >And then we would always brace ourselves for the very worst part of >the >trip: having to sit through the half hour of my father's >"Sunday Cultural >Italian Hour" radio program featuring songs from 'the old country,'... > Well, I'm not Italian, but I know what you mean. My Dad always loved listening to anything that smacked of "culture". It could be classical music or anything ethnic, no matter what ethnic group. Although many times we kids hated what he was listening to, if we found it weird enough, we could make fun of it, so that was OK. >[...]instead we'd hear cheesy advertisements for 'DeMarco and Son >Superette' on Fifth and Main.) I don't know where you live, but we still have stations (radio and TV) that play that kind of stuff. Toronto is a very multicultural city, so we can watch Chinese TV, or Italian, or any kind of Indian (both from India and aboriginal), Spanish, Portuguese, you name it. My husband likes to watch the news in Chinese sometimes - I have no idea why, since he isn't of Chinese background, nor does he understand it, but after you've listened to it for a while, it kind of grows on you, even though you don't have a clue what they're talking about. The weird part is watching a commercial that you've seen in English and all they've done is voiced it over in the other language - - now that's cheesy! >It was that half hour of humiliation that >reminded us that we were as far from the all-american Brady Bunch >family >as one could get. (More like the Baretta bunch, maybe? Was ANY family actually like the Brady Bunch? I certainly hope not!) >And then washing dishes at Grandma's: "Jesus Christ Superstar" >comes to >mind. Also provided a great excuse to yell "Jesus Christ!" without being accused of blasphemy. ("But Ma! It's a song - those are the real words to the song.") >As the designated dryer, I remember using the tea towel as Pontius >Pilate's whip while acting out the 52-lashes-part of Jesus Christ >Superstar---smacking at anyone in the kitchen. "Crucify him, >crucify >him..." Man, does this sound familiar - there's nothing like a twisted damp tea towel to inflict major pain! My mother used to get in on this - she would snap wet diapers at people - back then, EVERYONE used cloth diapers. I remember once, one of my cousins was staying with us while he was trying to find a job and a place to stay after moving from Montreal, and Mum tried this on him. Gave him the shock of his life! A new side to Auntie Noreen that he had never seen before. >3. Board Games: I have a confession to make: With the exception >of >Scrabble, Bolderdash, or Pictionary-----to me, Board games are >just that: >boring. I've never liked them much myself. I'm not sure why. I do find them boring, but maybe it's the competitiveness of it - I have to admit that I don't like playing a game unless i'm pretty sure I can win, which is pretty darned spoiled rotten of me. I love doing crossword puzzles (although they too get boring - they always use the same words over and over again) and I liked cribbage and certain card games, but I never could take Scrabble. I just don't think I can sit still long enough. I totally hate Monopoly. The whole idea of it is to take everyone else's money, and I guess I'm too much of a socialist at heart to warm to that idea. Not to mention my older brother's ways of modifying the rules - he would form consortiums with other people in order to wipe another one out; he created higher denominations of money - $1,000 and $2,000 bills; and he created a new street that went diagonally down the middle of the board so if you landed on a corner piece, like GO or Jail, you could opt to take that route instead of going straight. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:09:09 GMT From: "Phil Klein" Subject: PWWAM > Having only watched PWWAM for the first time quite recently, my thoughts are > mixed: > > 1. It's fabulous to look at, and everybody looks to be enjoying themselves Agreed. > 2. The sound is generally very good. You must be lucky, or I'm unlucky. I had to return 2 copies to the shop before I got one with an acceptable sound quality, and even then, its not so great - the vocals are too soft. Phil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:05:24 GMT From: "Phil Klein" Subject: David Bowie (NJC) > Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 14:45:40 EDT > From: AzeemAK@aol.com > Subject: David Bowie (NJC) > > David Bowie seems to be very seldom mentioned on the list. I imagine the > artifice in his music over the years might have made him anathema to some > Joni fans, although I'm sure there must be fans too. Anyway, Bowie is the > only artist by whom I have even more stuff than Joni: about 97% of his > recorded output comprising over 30 albums, many singles, a couple of videos, > a few bootlegs, several books, various T-shirts, etc etc. I've even got the > Tin Machine live album, God help me! > > I've just heard his new single, Thursday's Child, and it sounds pretty awful, > with especially ghastly synth strings, so foreign to the vital real strings > and harpsichord on 1984, from the fab Diamond Dogs album, which is currently > playing loud on my stereo. Still, I'll be there a week tomorrow to buy the > new album, hoping he's released the duff track as the first single, which he > has done before. > > Thinking Joni, Mr B also went through a fallow period in the 80s (I know some > disagree that that applies to Joni!), only to re-emerge with new inspiration > later, with Black Tie/White Noise and The Buddha of Suburbia. > > Any other Bowie fans out there?? > Yes, Azeem, very much so!! Hunky Dory, Ziggy and Aladdin Sane saw me through my teenage years. These albums, plus Lodger and Scary Monsters I rate as his best. I will never forget his performance of "Starman" on TOTP - watching with my Mum and Dad, Dad the classic "all pop is rubbish, all the (male) singers limp-wristed girly poofs" sort - to be confronted by this apparition in a skin-tight body suit, make-up, glitter and rotten teeth. Only time I've seen him speechless. You mentioned the 80s as a fallow period, but I really like Let's Dance. I've only seen him once, at Milton Keynes bowl, 1990, which was the tour where he played his back catalogue - except "Laughing Gnome" of course, but incidentally, the support act, The Men They Couldn't Hang, did a crap version as a bit of a piss take. I'm not familiar with the later stuff, what would you recommend to listen to, from mid-80s on? Sorry to go on, but I've not posted for a while. Phil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:06:24 EDT From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: Public Eye (was: Reply to Gina, and a movie) In a message dated 9/27/99 6:16:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hell@ihug.co.nz writes: << If Joni was consistently rude and intolerant of her fans - refusing to sign autographs, etc. - would this list have as many devoted fans? You could argue that we're here for the music, but if she was really nasty, I think it would probably make a difference! >> Well.....I think there is a lot of truth in this statement. In the early 80's, Joni did a concert here in Boston that was at the end of her European tour, I believe. According to all sources, (I had just had a baby, and unfortunately couldn't attend) she was VERY rude, obnoxious, and stormed off the stage, refusing to finish her set. I was SO sad when I heard this, and my feelings about her changed a bit then. I did continue to buy her music, but only when I "happened" to notice there was something new in the bins. My love for her music didn't change, but my feelings for the incredibly warm performer that I saw several times in the 70's certainly had a tainted glow to it. In reality, finding Wally's website, and joning this list brought back all the reasons why I love her and her music, especially when I read all the reasons "why" the Boston gig was so difficult for her. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:17:39 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: RE: WTRF Ben said: >Though having said that when I got WTRF my initial reaction >was real disappointment, sort of along the lines of - 'how could this be >Joni....' I can completely understand this reaction to WTRF because it was such a complete departure from what Joni was doing in the 70s. The main issue I had with this album when it first came out was: IT'S SO DAMN HAPPY! Once you are able to unearth the meloncholy and beauty that is on that album (Chinese Cafe, Moon at the Window, Man to Man) it grows on you - or it did on me anyway. I have two klunkers I still can't deal with -- Solid Love and Underneath the Streetlight -- bow wow. Too sappy for this melancholy baby. For any of you who think I'm dissing Joni, this is like the Spinal Tap joke of pushing the volume up to 11. All Joni's albums are 5 star with me, just some are 5.1 and some are 5.9! :-) Take care, Sue ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ weekend email address: suemc16@webtv.net "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 15:00:16 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: RE: WTRF Sue said: <> But Joni HAD to have a departure...her previous studio record was Mingus, and then she capped that whole period with S&L, which was also a pretty DAMN HAPPY record I thought. She took her "70's period" as far as she could. With WTRF she returned to a simpler pop/rock format, I think to re-establish herself commercially but also to sort of "return to home base" after her jazz journey. I liked the whole record A LOT (which is why I'm having a good time collecting the '83 tour tapes). I could list my most favorites, but I don't have any klunkers on that one - she really seems to enjoy being a rock and roll singer on the upbeat tunes and of course she always shines on the ballads... Bob NP: U2, "Bullet the Blue Sky" from Rattle and Hum ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 15:16:32 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: Re: eBay & Death of a thread (NJC) It is my understanding that eBay will very soon implement a policy of no CDR auctions allowed. They make no mention of any other medium though. The info is posted at their site. Regarding the second subject, I was very behind on my digests and have only now caught up. My very unpopular opinions on this subject are widely known on this list and I've no desire to rehash them, but the very fact that this subject comes up again and again and again only reaffirms my beliefs. gdave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 15:20:19 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: Bethel offer Having recieved the summer '98 Bethel show on the CD tree, I am no longer in need of the cassette version recieved in the last tape tree. I offer it up for trade. You would be getting the actual tape I recieved as a leaf on the tree, not a copy. If I get no trade offers, I'll B&P it. gdave - ----------------------------------------------------------------- DaveBase @ www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 15:19:01 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: RE: WTRF >But Joni HAD to have a departure...her previous studio record was Mingus, >and then she capped that whole period with S&L, which was also a pretty >DAMN HAPPY record I thought. She took her "70's period" as far as she >could. With WTRF she returned to a simpler pop/rock format, I think to >re-establish herself commercially but also to sort of "return to home base" >after her jazz journey. > I think there is so much of Larry's influence on this album, too. That was also a departure for Joni, too, letting another person collaborate on the creative process, where she was so much in control on all the other projects. Am I off base here? I'm kind of spewing off the cuff. Sue ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ weekend email address: suemc16@webtv.net "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 15:28:24 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: RE: WTRF <> I don't know if you're off base or not...I never considered that Larry influenced this one like he did with DED, but I'm just guessing. Maybe I should get to the articles and see what they say to educate myself. He didn't have any songwriting credits on WTRF whereas he did on DED. I think his influence on WTRF was the fact that he was making Joni very happy and it shows in her performances. Bob NP: U2, "Numb" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:44:50 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: that picture at the back of 'For the Roses' <> ummm... just for the record... that *is* Joni. pat NP: Cold Blue Steel out of money One eye for the beat police Sweet Fire calling "You can't deny me Now you know what you need" http://members.wbs.net/homepages/b/a/d/badwolff.html Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:23:13 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: WTRF Bob wrote: > I think his influence on WTRF was the fact that he was making Joni very > happy and it shows in her performances. I look at it as their own personal "court and spark" album. In addition to playing bass on every song, here's what the liner notes on the album say about him: "Special thanks to Larry Klein for caring about and fussing over this record along with me" "Mixed at Paramount Studios by Larry Hirsch, Larry Klein and Joni Mitchell" "Rhythm arrangements on 'Wild Things Run Fast' and 'You're So Square' by Larry Klein and Vinnie Colaiuta" Kakki NP: Jonifest tapes ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 15:48:21 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: RE: WTRF Bob said: >I don't know if you're off base or not...I never considered that Larry >influenced this one like he did with DED, but I'm just guessing. Maybe I >should get to the articles and see what they say to educate myself. He >didn't have any songwriting credits on WTRF whereas he did on DED. > >I think his influence on WTRF was the fact that he was making Joni very >happy and it shows in her performances. Well, when in doubt, go to the source. This is what it says on Wally's site about the WTRF period: Joni told Musician magazine: "Larry and I listened to a lot of fads and we tempered them...Larry is a "sounds" man. His ear hears certain things and he'll point them out to me. So a lot of (the sound of the album) has to do with Larry's input. Credit where credit is due." Joni dedicated the album with this message: "Special thanks to Larry Klein for caring about and fussing over this record along with me". ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ weekend email address: suemc16@webtv.net "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 20:50:46 +0100 From: Martin Giles Subject: Re: PWWAM Azeem gave us his thoughts on the video.. > Joni sounds as though she's hitting all the notes, although I felt she was > either undersinging or mixed too far down, which is odd considering she is > responsible for the mix. I think her voice is mixed quite low, which I agree is odd. I reckon another 2 or 3dB would have done the trick!!:-) If she didn't like the sound of her voice because she hadn't been well, that might account for the level she mixed it at. > Everything changes when she takes off the guitar! Her singing sounds > twice as confident and powerful, leading me to wonder whether the effort and > concentration required of her extremely deft and complex playing is not > detracting from her singing. Does anyone else see/hear it like that? It seems to me that when she does the covers, she is really enjoying herself - she is more animated and she smiles more. On the first tune she suddenly has backing vocalists to sing with. She sounds fresh. Also, I wonder how much she might be bored with having to render her own tunes yet again? It must be a perennial problem for any performer..remember her story about Van Gogh on MOA. I don't know if she has difficulty in performing her songs. I find it nearly impossible to play her syncopated rhythms and sing those wandering lyrics at the same time. BW, Martin. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:02:14 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: dts Just saw that PWWAM is being released next week on DTS DVD. That must mean that the DVD and tape are selling well. Jerry np: Julia Fordham - Happy Ever After ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:38:35 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Bootlegs - new proposed eBay policy (NJC) Thanks, Pearl, for checking this out. I've copied below what eBay says regarding the music CD-Rs. While providing a general warning regarding infringement, It sounds to me like they are still leaving a door open for "bootlegs" of live performances. I do know that these issues have been very challenging for the legal sector. It's not clear cut and a lot of the law is still evolving on it. Kakki ********************* Music on CD-R The following is a PROPOSED policy that would reside on the Music, Movies and Photos policy page. eBay Policy on Music on CD-R: As a matter of eBay policy, music on CD-R (including CD-RW) may not be listed on eBay, unless the seller is the copyright owner and states this in the item description. This policy also means that even lawful authorized music recordings on CD-R are not permitted on eBay. This following situation illustrates how this might arise. Example: An local band decides to release its latest album on CD-R. The band sells the album on CD-R on eBay to Katie. This is permissible because the band is the copyright owner of the music. Katie now wants to resell the music on CD-R on eBay. The music on CD-R is "lawful music," but Katie (or anyone other than the band) is not permitted to list this item on eBay. Please note that items not specifically covered by the policy (for example, "bootleg" recordings of live performances, "promotional" copies on CD, not CD-R) may nonetheless be unauthorized and infringing and could expose sellers to liability or action by eBay. If you have questions about this proposed policy, view the Music on CD-R FAQ page. Music on CD-R http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/upcoming-music-cdr.html ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #435 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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