From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #433 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Sunday, September 26 1999 Volume 04 : Number 433 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Death of a Thread [catman ] death of a Thread [catman ] Re: Death of a Thread (NJC) [zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny)] Re: Death of a Thread (NJC) [catman ] new music & movies (NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] NJC- RE:Plug Of The Week #37- Live music [MP123A321@aol.com] Re: new music & movies (NJC) [catman ] Re: NJC- RE:Plug Of The Week #37- Live music [catman ] RE: 'blair witch' (NJC) [David Wright ] Re: 'blair witch' (NJC) [Vince Lavieri ] RE: new music & movies (NJC) ["patrick leader" ] Re: Death of a Thread [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Death of a Thread (NJC) [David Wright ] Re: new music & movies (NJC) [TerryM2442@aol.com] NJC: Movies, CarRadio, Dishes and Games ["Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Re: Death of a Thread > > > As for your above comment, I love seeing the self-confidence and > intelligence that's been reflected in your posts. I know my motivations > too, and my post was all about principals, not about pointing any > fingers or expressing I had been hurt. But you did express hurt-you said you had been made to feel like a voyuer which was hurtful to you. And you don't need to point fingers as we who wrote know who we are! > I honestly felt not one iota of > hurt, but rather some disgust for what I saw as a subtle form of > manipulation. Sometimes it seems manipulation is least likely to be > recognized by the ones who are doing the manipulating, a blind spot. and perhaps some people make rash, ill informed judgements. the best people to know their mtoives are those that have them. I cannot speak for any others that wrote, but I for one had no intention of stopping that thread and made that quite clear. > I > just wanted to suggest motivations be checked before posting to the > list, if such a post could thwart a thread enjoyed by others. What you see as suspect motivation is your problem. This is getting very close to you being offensive about other people. > Of > course, everyone should have freedom of expression, but hopefully > experience and wisdom will direct when it's best for that freedom to be > exercised, and how to do it. It seems to me that you did not appreciate at all others experience or wisdom in stating there feelings. Nothing I said, or the others, was meant to stop the thread, nor was it a swipe at you nor was it a way to manipulate people into dropping the discussion. it seems you are not only convinced it was but that you are equally convinced that you know me well enough to know my motives, not to say those of the others posters who expressed a similar feeling. No where in my post did I suggest that the Little Green thread should not have happened nor did I suggest that people lacked experience or wisdom in their discussion of it. Effectievly, you are saying that we should not have expressed our feelings, because in doing we were being underhand and manipulative. Strange. As I have previously said, I cannot help how you perceive things. I am also surprised that you presume to know other people so well. > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 01:02:02 +0100 From: catman Subject: death of a Thread It seems I misunderstood penny who wrote: I've been thinking a lot about this thread. I usually don't care to dive into Joni's personal life as it makes me feel like a gossip or voyeur. I am sorry I thought you meant we made you feel like a voyeur. i got the wrong end of the stick. penny also wrote: I particularly dislike the threads that try to determine the "who" Joni is speaking of when she's writing of a past lover. now i really am sure i got the wrong end of the stick. weren't you just saying that Ann, Gina, Michael and I,who wrote about our uncomfortable feelings about the little green thread, were being maniplative and that we didn't know our motives. I know I must have misunderstood because none of us said anything as strong as the above. I sahll keep out of this now as I seem to have totally missed your point. - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 17:04:59 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Re: Death of a Thread (NJC) Colin, Please feel free to misquote, assume or rip away about me or what I've expressed. I have no need to have the last word, on or off-list. Happy posting, Penny ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 01:10:08 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Death of a Thread (NJC) I haven't misquoted you Penny. you must expect that if you make assumptions about a persons real intent, that person may wish to defend themselves. Penny wrote: > Colin, > > Please feel free to misquote, assume or rip away about me or what I've > expressed. I have no need to have the last word, on or off-list. > > Happy posting, > Penny - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 18:15:59 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: new music & movies (NJC) We've been on a bit of a spree this weekend. Last night I ordered from CD Now: Steeleye Span - Below the Salt Irene Kral - Live Meshelle Ndegeocello - Bitter Today I bought: The Beatles - Yellow Submarine soundtrack Yellow Submarine DVD Breakfast at Tiffany's DVD and for $9.99 at Target (are you there Patrick & Jerry?): Divine Madness on DVD! (such a bargain!) Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 21:20:18 EDT From: MP123A321@aol.com Subject: NJC- RE:Plug Of The Week #37- Live music Peter, <<"Live-music-is-better"-bumper sticker should be issued!>> Here it is....the famous, real thing, live music bumper sticker.....now issued. http://members.aol.com/mp123a321/bumpersticker (JPG 146 K download) enjoy....... Maurice ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 02:30:20 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: new music & movies (NJC) re DVD-it would be great to own one of these but here they are very expensive. We pay way over what you would have to pay. Also, there is not much available yet on DVD. As with the cd, I think the time will come when it will be much cheaper and also recordable. Till then i don't think it will catch on well here. Mentioning Breakfast At Tiffany's reminded me that i picked up a video of Bringing Up Baby for a couple of pounds recently. I have not seen this movie all the way thru. i happened to catch some of it about 20 years ago and it stuck in my mind which is why i bought the video. Now all I have to do is watch it! Oh, does anyone know if katherine Hepburn is still with us in body? the last i heard she was ill with Parkinsons, poor woman. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 02:31:34 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC- RE:Plug Of The Week #37- Live music MP123A321@aol.com wrote: > Peter, > > <<"Live-music-is-better"-bumper sticker should be issued!>> give me a cd anyday ;-) > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 02:33:26 +0100 From: catman Subject: Joni remasters/hdcd's Could someone list the Joni cd's available that have been redone? I seem to remember someone mentioning that STAS was re-mastered for cd recently. if that is so, is it any better? - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:18:05 -0400 (EDT) From: David Wright Subject: RE: 'blair witch' (NJC) On Sat, 25 Sep 1999, Wally Kairuz wrote: > i'm currently going through a blair witch fixation. i'm collecting > EVERYTHING even vaguely related to the movie. i bought the video, the fake > documentary they made with the throwout footage, the book, the poster, the > t-shirt. Oh, but do you have the "soundtrack album" -- supposedly the songs from a mix tape that was found in one of the vanished students' car? I think all of that back story to the film (as presented on the website, in the books, etc.) is brilliantly clever. It's not unlike The Lord of the Rings (all that stuff in the appendices at the end) -- Tolkien's elaborate Middle-Earth histories and languages and genealogies and so forth. I hope you see the movie soon, Wally. - --David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:37:25 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: 'blair witch' (NJC) David Wright wrote: > I hope you see the movie soon, Wally. So do I. It is great. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:28:23 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: new music & movies (NJC) sean connery or his hot twin brother wrote: >Me'shelle Ndegeocello - Bitter > what a beautiful, fascinating album! more than one jmdler is falling in love with it. i played it for heather riding back from ashara's. there were many discussions that weekend about dianne reeves' new album with the cover of 'river'. i love that album and have a great respect for her magnificent instrument of a voice, but the niggling doubts i have about reeves' commitment to the lyrics are really brought into relief when i hear me'shell's singing on this album. it cuts right to my heart. the best word for 'bitter' is intimate. the production, by craig street (of cassandra wilson renown) and mr. greg liesz' chilling pedal steel guitar (especially on 'wasted time', my favorite track) also elevate 'bitter' to sublime. there was a wonderful review of 'the new r&b' in this week's village voice that discussed 'bitter' as well as: toshi reagon - the righteous ones angie stone - black diamond macy gray - on how life is melky sedeck - sister&brother and really had me interested in all of them. has anyone heard others besides me'shell? bob muller's been singing the praises of gray, but i heard her sing on npr and was underwhelmed. the review has me thinking again. i suspect michael yarbrough has picked up melky sedeck because of the 'fugees' connection. talk, michael. i picked up my first toshi reagon album (kindness - 1997) not long after she opened 'joni's jazz' in central park with 'trouble child' and blew us all away. that toshi is in heavy rotation in my personal jukebox. the new one sounds like it might be amazing. >and for $9.99 at Target (are you there Patrick & Jerry?): >Divine Madness on DVD! (such a bargain!) > i don't own a dvd player. mark, the original movie included a transcendent version of 'rainbow sleeve' during the bag lady sequence (that section is otherwise kinda weak, except for bette singing 'do you wanna dance' again. she really makes that song so much better than it is.) anyway, rainbow sleeve was cut from the video version. please let me know if it is on the dvd version. it's the same song that rickie lee jones sings on her rare 'girl at her volcano'. patrick, feeling over the edge of music obsession, again.. np - siberry - the bird in the gravel ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:41:02 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Death of a Thread In a message dated 9/25/99 6:37:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, zapuppy2@webtv.net writes: << I honestly felt not one iota of hurt, but rather some disgust for what I saw as a subtle form of manipulation. >> If I may be plain spoken...I honestly never meant to manipulate, censor or stifle any discussion of the Little Green thread or any other thread JC or NJC. I think being extremely busy has turned me into a sloppy and less thoughtful poster lately. My first post in reaction to the Little Green thread was admittedly blunt due to how busy my life has been lately. I acknowledged and apologized for that bluntness and expediency and hoped that subsequent posts reflected more sensitively what I meant to convey. Both due to being busy and my limited writing talent , I have failed at making my intentions clear. My aim is true, to quote a favorite songwriter, though it is not always palatable, I guess. I never in a gazillion years imagined when I wrote one of my posts in reaction to the Little Green thread that my use of the word "uncomfortable" to describe only one small aspect of my thoughts and feelings would be misconstrued as censorship and manipulation. I think once again, my poor choice of words is a reflection of how am I currently too busy in my life to consider and seriously weigh every detail, however small, of my communications to the list and in other areas of my life, for that matter. Take care, Gina ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 23:06:46 -0400 (EDT) From: David Wright Subject: Re: Death of a Thread (NJC) Colin wrote to me: > my previous posts over the last two years make it clear I am the > last person to blame the victim as you put it. Yeah, that's what I would have thought, which is why I found it odd to read things in your posts like "we can't be held responsible for the way you felt" or "that's your problem." I think that's tantamount to telling Penny, "we don't care about your feelings." Colin wrote to Penny: > and perhaps some people make rash, ill informed judgements. the best > people to know their mtoives are those that have them. Then wouldn't the person who best knows if their judgment was rash and ill-informed be the person who made that judgment? > it seems you are not only convinced it was but that you are equally > convinced that you know me well enough to know my motives [snip] > I am also surprised that you presume to know other people so well. Well, here you are presuming to know Penny well enough to know what she is convinced of, aren't you? - --David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 23:29:07 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: new music & movies (NJC) In a message dated 9/25/1999 9:32:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, catman@apso.screaming.net writes: << Oh, does anyone know if katherine Hepburn is still with us in body? the last i heard she was ill with Parkinsons, poor woman. >> As far as I know, she's still with us. When we adopted our daughter, we named her Kate in honor of KH. We were living in NYC at the time and somehow I found out her address, wrote her a short note, and included a photo of our newborn. Lo and behold, Ms. H sent us back a signed letter with her full name, Katharine Houghton Hepburn inscribed at the top. She sent a second note after receiving an update on how "our" Kate was growing up so beautifully. I'm sorry to hear she isn't doing well. Anyone know more? Terry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:56:13 -0400 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: NJC: Movies, CarRadio, Dishes and Games At 04:42 PM 9/18/99 EDT, Ashara@aol.com wrote: >I was so glad to see these posts about family games! I am a BIIIIIIIIG board >game player from way back, and my 4 boys and I still play board games >whenever we can, Ashara and all, I am just now catching up on some of these threads. 1. 1. Movies: Loved "Gods and Monsters." From my experience, movies with gay themes are generally disappointing, but I think this one is the best one I've seen. (Saw "Mumford" last night and it wasn't as funny as the trailers made it out to be, but it was special to me for personal reasons. It had it's own kind of JimmyStewart-Mayberry RFD charm...and it is a Lawrence Kasden film as in "The Big Chill.") Haven't seen "Blair Witch" because when I heard that it wasn't true, I was no longer motivated to go. (Similar to my experience with "Bridges of Madison County.) 2. Psyched for tomorrow's Saturday Night Live Reunion on NBC. Also an album, volumes 1 and 2 will be released, featuring performances of the SNL musical guests throughout the years. 3. Singing in the car: what a great thread! I would love to spend more time writing about what we sang and what we fought/talked about while driving in the car. (We sang mostly camp songs on the family weekly hour drive, after Sunday high mass, from Pennsylvania to Ohio to my Grandmother's for your standard Sunday afternoon Italian dinner.) We would sing: "The cruel war is ranging, Johny has to fight, I want to be with him from morning till night. I want to be with him, it grieves my heart so, Won't you let me go with you? No my love no." 1960's Car dialogue went as follows: me: "Daddy please open the window...your cigarette is making us sick, Diane's going to throw up any minute, I mean it!!!!!" Placating Mother: "Keep singing then, it will get your mind off of it." And then we would always brace ourselves for the very worst part of the trip: having to sit through the half hour of my father's "Sunday Cultural Italian Hour" radio program featuring songs from 'the old country,' emceed by the town barber who would drone on in broken Enlish AND Italian. He had a way of making Lawrence Welk seem hip. It was the kind of radio program with no corporate sponsors, instead we'd hear cheesy advertisements for 'DeMarco and Son Superette' on Fifth and Main.) It was that half hour of humiliation that reminded us that we were as far from the all-american Brady Bunch family as one could get. (This was before "The Godfather"--- which made being ethnic stylish in American culture.) And then washing dishes at Grandma's: "Jesus Christ Superstar" comes to mind. As the designated dryer, I remember using the tea towel as Pontius Pilate's whip while acting out the 52-lashes-part of Jesus Christ Superstar---smacking at anyone in the kitchen. "Crucify him, crucify him crucify him, " we would scream racing around my grandparents' spacious ranch home chasing after my little brother. 3. Board Games: I have a confession to make: With the exception of Scrabble, Bolderdash, or Pictionary-----to me, Board games are just that: boring. Even as a child I was like this. I hated the chance element. I hated picking the card that would cause me to go all the way back to start. I remember thinking as a little girl, "Who needs this aggravation? What kind of mean man invented this game?" And I became a very bad mother in the board game department: "Please, ask your father to play, you know I don't do board games." "Monopoly" has always been to me--an exercise in slow, agonizing torture. -JulieZWebb, who **does**likes poker ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #433 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?