From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #432 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Saturday, September 25 1999 Volume 04 : Number 432 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- High pedigree, nice coat. Well trained. [Richard Rice ] Re: Artist's songs for their children NJC [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Death of a Thread [zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny)] Re: Death of a Thread [LLDeMerle ] Re: Death of a Thread [LLDeMerle ] Re: Death of a Thread NJC [MGVal@aol.com] Re: Death of a Thread [catman ] Gods and Monsters (NJC) [Michael Paz ] Re: Gods and Monsters (NJC) [catman ] FTR Songbook (NJC) [Michael Paz ] re: Let's run away (NJC) [Brian Gross ] RE: Gods and Monsters (NJC) ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Gods and Monsters (NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Gods and Monsters (NJC) [Michael Paz ] RE: Gods and Monsters (NJC) ["patrick leader" ] Re: Harry's House/Centerpiece NJC [CaTGirl627@aol.com] RE: Gods and Monsters (NJC) [David Wright ] Harry's 'Centerpiece' (JC?) ["Jerome Gonzales" ] Re: Death of a Thread (NJC) [David Wright ] Re: Gods and Monsters (NJC) [catman ] RE: Gods and Monsters (NJC) ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: 'blair witch' (NJC) ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Death of a Thread (NJC) [catman ] Plug Of The Week #37 ["Peter Holmstedt" ] Thanks for the memories! (NJC) ["Pitassi, Mary" ] Re: Death of a Thread [zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny)] RE: Harry's House ["John Low" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 02:24:17 -0500 From: Richard Rice Subject: High pedigree, nice coat. Well trained. "Everybody hated it, anyway..." I can still hear Joni's broad, deep throated laugh after that line. At least she's come to peace with everyone thinking Dog eat Dog was just that. Arf! Arf! I guess I liked DED better than most. So if you're lurking out there Joan, 'Not everyone hated it! --I genuinely liked the project! And some songs I OUT AND OUT LOVE!!!' Admittedly, I don't consider it one of her great works. I know so because two months after its release I was desperate to hear something new from her. A marked contrast to Hejira where I went month after month trying to absorb all the wonderful, wonderful nuances of music, imagery, concepts, poetry and vision. What a beautiful piece of art that was!!! A hauntingly eloquent song cycle that raised popular song to such a high level. But let's be kind. DED begins and ends so beautifully. Good Friends started a return to a kind of upbeat Court and Spark type intro song that is so good for a lead into an album. As with all her songs, this baby is a visual wonder. I can so easily picture her doing that wonderful darting from one obscure idea to another thing, that she often does in conversation! She is sitting having coffee, pastry, and smokes in some cafe in Little Italy, gesturing of hand and painting in words threads of ideas in warm effortless conversation. When I listen to this piece I dream of being that other soul across the table enjoying her company and adding my thoughts on subjects that must range from music to books, painting, philosophy, relationships, and even some goofy poofy silly stuff to round out the conversation. ( Please, don't ask where goofy poofy comes from, just popped into my head...) And when I am not picturing Joan, I can so easily see my friends, Carol, and Ed, Rob, Thomas, and so many I am blessed in life by knowing. She sums up my feelings for them as well as I ever could with this song. It is a nice companion piece to My Secret Place. No hearts of gold No nerves of steel No blame for what we can and cannot feel One is not often so lucky as to have friendships where both parties are fully aware of the limitations of the other's feelings and yet be at peace with those limitations, accepting the warmth and joy of each other's company in spite of it. So many relationships go down in flames for lack of this wisdom. I love her for reminding me of this in song. She ends it with Lucky Girl. What beautiful sentiment, and I love it when she adds that jazzy touch to her singing. Forget the standards! What say she writes an entire song cycle of jazz inflected melodies of her own! Now that would make my mouth water and my heart glow with happiness! Much of what comes in between does seem a bit false and forced, a middle aged woman trying a tad to hard to be hip and cutting edge. The synthesizers and all come off as musical goop, but they are learning experiences in studio work that pay off on later projects. I know absolutely nothing about mixing music and the like, but there are touches in TI and TTT that owe a lot to these 80's 'dogs.' Perhaps some with real musical knowledge might care to lend a hand here? Surely the joyous sparkle of those 25 tracks of her guitar on My Secret Place attest to this. In spite of the aural baggage, The Three Great Stimulants is such a great song. It is certainly in my top 25! A chill went down my spine when I first heard the lines: And we call for the three great stimulants Of the exhausted ones Artifice, brutality and innocence Artifice and innocence These lines so clearly speak to what is wrong with our culture. The moment I heard this I wanted to run down the streets of Dekalb to wake everyone to the fact that we are medicating ourselves with popular drivel in order to spare ourselves dealing with reality. And to hear it with such economy of words speak to the marvelous craftsmanship of her lyric writing. Way to go Joan! Her love of words sent me on my own journey into reading more. I have a great affection for 'plain speak' poetry, that owes a debt to her. I laugh when I hear her dismissive attitude towards poetry. I am not sure how to take her on that. Not that it matters. The intellect and beauty of her words speak for themselves and thanks to her I have enjoyed the works of many cool writers and poets. Carlos Drummond de Andrade and Donald Justice are two I would recommend to the list. Carlos speaks so eloquently on the subject of love. Check him out. I often wonder what a project of her putting the words of other poets to music would be like. ( I can just hear the music execs making loud thuds hitting the floor over the suggestion of such a commercial bomb as that idea!!! ) But one can dream. She remarked on PWWM about her collection of 'morbid' little christmas songs, and I have one sweet John Nims' poem that would be awesome set to her music and jeweled pen. Heck, she could wrap the music around a spoken piece. That would work for me. ( Although I still crave the poem passage of Paprika Plains being set to a melody! ) Please forgive my quoting here, but it is such a sad and precious bit of writing, this... entitled, Christmas Tree. This seablue fir that rode the mountain storm Is swaddled here in splints of tin to die. Sofas around in chubby velvet swarm; Onlooking cabinets glitter with flat eye; Here lacquer in the branches runs like rain And resin of treasure starts from every vein. Light is a dancer here and cannot rest. No tanagers or jays half so bright As swarms of fire that deep in fragrance nest In jungles of the gilt exotic night Where melons hang like moonstone. White above Rises that perfect star, the sign of love. On carpets' fairy turf, in rainbow dark, Here once the enchanted children laid their heads, Reached for the floating moon above the park, And all their hopes were simple blues and reds. Beneath the electric hale, none could see Swords in the ankle of the victim tree. Each named a patron star: Arthur said green For August in the country; and Betty blue For swinging and the Florida surf; while Jeanne Decided gold. One horoscope was true: The star of Donald low and lava-red-- Enlisted Donald, in Australia dead. Our lives were bound to sorcery and night. Zodiacs crumble on the boughs of rust For every child is gone. Some burned too bright And now lie broken in the bins of dust; And some, a fortunate few, adventured far And found assurance in the perfect star. Well Joan, my dear, let's see you wrap your talents around that little beauty! --O what the heck, forgive me gang if I throw in one more by Carlos Drummond de Andrade. Scroll past if you please... What else can a creature do among creatures but love? love and forget, love and love poorly, love, cease to love, love? love always-even with glassy eyes? What else, I ask, can the loving person do. alone in the universal rotation. but rotate also - and love? love what the sea washes up on the beach, what it buries, and what in the sea breeze becomes salt, or compulsion of love, or a simple longing? To love solemnly the desert palms, what is surrender or expectant adoration, and to love the inhospitable, the crude, a flowerless vase, an exhausted soil, and the sluggish heart, and the street imagined in dream, and the circling vulture. That is our destiny: measureless love, to be shared among fickle or frivolous things, unlimited gift to a complete ingratitude, and in the empty shell of love - the fearful, patient search for more and more love. To love our very lack of love, and in our dryness- to love the implicit water, the tacit kiss, the infinite thirst. I can hear this in the style of TTT as well as her underrated beauty: Love. One last thread and I will stop boring you all. A fellow new lister and guitar novice was asking for songs to start in with and Coyote was recommended as it is a strumming piece. My take on that is, lots of luck! The rhythms of her music are soooooo soooooo complex and vexing. This one wraps me knots trying to keep up. I like Otis and Marlena, although I should caution you, I pop a string every time I go for this tuning. ( I just hate that! ) Someday soon I too will own a VG-8 and all will be perfect in the world. -- My advice, and I may be wrong, is to play and everything, even if badly as one day a transformation will occur...you will too learn to play well. Have fun. Besides, there are so many surprises awaiting you in moving through her chord changes that will just thrill you to hear!! Go for it. If I am wrong and sending bad advice, please straighten me out. I'm just a visual artist, not a guitarist. Ok, I will say good night, or g'day now. --Hi to all. I wish you the very best. Special hellos to Paz, and Ashara and Bob and Howard and Sue and Mike D. who have made this experience all the more wonderful by opening her music to me. You too, Les. Sorry to be so long winded here. BYE! John. ( who wubs Joan. ) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 11:28:07 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Death of a Thread Mark or Travis wrote: > I've waited a few days before responding so I wasn't thought to > > be writing out of emotion, but what it was like was to be at a party > and > > some in a discussion announced they had become uncomfortable with > the > > content and the rest of us were suggested it would be proper to > "shut up > > out of respect". > > I didn't participate in this thread but I did read all of the very > thoughtful and intelligent posts and I didn't get the feeling that > anybody was trying to stop it. Some people did make their feelings of > discomfort with the subject known but I honestly didn't think they > were trying to censor anybody. I didn't read any posts that suggested the thread should stop. In my own I expressed discmfort with it, purely from the point of view of wondering if I would like to be discussed as like this, whilst making it clear that I did not think the subject shouldn't be discussed. > (This post is titled, "Death of a > > Thread." Could a sequel at a later date be titled "Death of a Loved > > Discussion List" if a reminder to use the delete key is not heeded > when > > a minority is uncomfortable with an active thread's discussion > content. > > I don't think the situation is as dire as all that. Certainly we've > come a lot closer to meltdown than this and we've survived. Was there > a specific comment or post that caused you to feel this way, Penny? > I'm not trying to discredit you or flame you. I just don't understand > where this is coming from. Also, I don't recall seeing any flaming going on during this thread. And like you, Mark, I found this post difficult to understand. Threads come to an end naturally. This thread was good in that it brought up feelings and thoughts in people that were well expressed. bw colin > > > With all due respect, > > Mark in Seattle - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 08:25:21 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Artist's songs for their children NJC Someone mentioned Loudon Wainwright: one of my favourite songs of his is "Hitting You", about an incident when he spanked his daughter Martha, and immediately realised he'd hit her too hard. It's a truly great song. The great Richard Thompson wrote two fabulous songs about his son Teddy: "The End of the Rainbow" and "King of Bohemia". And as an inveterate Bowie fan I must mention the delightful "Kooks", from "Hunky Dory"... "Don't pick fights with the bullies or the cads 'Cos I'm not much cop at punching other people's dads" Azeem in London, watching Ally McBeal, looking forward to the new Bowie album (well, someone has to) and to seeing Christine Collister play on Monday. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 07:13:49 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Re: Death of a Thread Mark wrote: <> But if a lister (or a minority few listers) lets the list know they are uncomfortable with a current thread, the participants of that thread have to choose to willingly and knowingly continue to make others uncomfortable or discontinue the thread. It does become a way for censorship if you are truly respectful for others' feelings. (Which I, for one am.) For example, if there were a very funny but very vulgar thread going on, how would it make the participants of that thread feel if I came in and announced "I think this is too vulgar to be put on the web for all to read. This disscussion list bears Joni's name and she or her family could be reading it!" Some of the bolder listers would probably tell me to use the delete key and continue the thread. But the listers who are more sensitive to the posts stating discomfort with the thread would probably stop participation in the thread right there, and also feel they had just been called vulgar. The "little green" thread participants were largely very sensitive women listers. So by some stating their discomfort with the topic, even though acknowleding all of the posts in that thread had been highly respectful, insightful and sensitive, the thread was ended out of respect for the feelings of those that stated their discomfort. And also to be factored in was the subject matter of "little green"....personal (but in print) and painful details of Joni's life. I saw no one trying to second guess Joni's very tough decisions, but rather to examine why she had to make them and the ramifications they have had on her career. To be *examining* with other participants what other listers were uncomfortable with, suddenly made me feel like I'd been called a voyeur, after they stated their feelings on-list, mid-thread. <> I agree and no complaints with that thread. <> <> I should have put heavier emphasis on "discussion". Participation in sensitive discussion would be threatened if it became a habit for some to state their "discomfort" as opposed to pushing the delete key with the participants unaware. Of course we all have every right to state our points of view in a discussion, and I agree whole heartedly to observe everyones right for free speech, but the fact that we were involved in the discussion itself became the target rather than opposing points of view within that thread. It seemed more like an subtle form of manipulation, determining list content of what should be discussed and what should not, out of respect for Joni and her family, than a simple case of free speech being exercised. This is just an observation, but when "discussion" becomes an unsafe thing to do for the more sensitive posters, whether it be because of flame wars, nasty tempers or subtle forms of manipulation, our wonderful discussion list looks more like a "discussion of lists" than a "discussion list." I would just hate to see the "discussion" aspects of our list die out in favor of many listers just throwing out funny crumbs instead. It's great when we can have both! Sorry if my post came across to strongly in the context of the "little green" thread specifically, it's the principal of the thing that I felt was important to state. Penny ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 10:38:23 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: Death of a Thread Hi Penny, Good questions you've posed regarding where Joni likely is on her "being discussed." >I know I'm no rocket scientist, having only a year or so more formal >education than Joni herself, but maybe I'm missing the point in why some >chose to take issue with the Little Green thread, effectively ending >that discussion. The thread did seem to end sort of abruptly...but I don't think it was "ended" by anyone in particular. I had hoped to contribute, but a friend was dying and I was otherwise occupied. It seemed to me that the same points were being made by several people, whether or not that is the case or I was just tapped out, I haven't explored, however, when I got back to the list, I didn't have the motivation to dig for points that might be expounded on. >I don't know if others that participated in the thread >suddenly felt they were being deemed a sleazy voyeur, insensitive or >disrespectful towards Joni, but that was the implication I felt took >place. Whether or not that is/was the case is inconsequential since this is an unmoderated list (I think?) If one wishes to post, what's to stop them but feeling intimidated by the posts of others who put their underwear on the same way you do. :D Obviously, Penny, you were enjoying the thread immensely, and if you wish to list any points you would like to discuss further, I'll be more than happy to oblige to the obvious degree that I'm not writing just to see my own type. :) I could use a little diversion, ATM. Regarding this particular thread being seen as "sleazy voyeur, insensitive or disrespectful towards Joni," folks are certainly entitled to their opinions. Personally, the JT and Joni thread has caused me a bit of angst, so I stopped reading. I also don't read anything regarding TTT since I'm reviewing it for an online publication (Eclectica Magazine: elite reading, folks!) So, Penny. Post, woman! LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 11:07:38 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: Death of a Thread At 07:13 AM 9/25/99 -0700, Penny wrote: >To be *examining* with other >participants what other listers were uncomfortable with, suddenly made >me feel like I'd been called a voyeur, after they stated their feelings >on-list, mid-thread. Being "called" a voyeur doesn't make you one, Penny! >I should have put heavier emphasis on "discussion". Participation in >sensitive discussion would be threatened if it became a habit for some >to state their "discomfort" as opposed to pushing the delete key with >the participants unaware. Censorship is a double-edged sword, isn't it? " :S >Of course we all have every right to state >our points of view in a discussion, and I agree whole heartedly to >observe everyones right for free speech, but the fact that we were >involved in the discussion itself became the target rather than opposing >points of view within that thread. It seemed more like an subtle form >of manipulation, determining list content of what should be discussed >and what should not, out of respect for Joni and her family, than a >simple case of free speech being exercised. It is certainly possible that this was the case, however, not knowing the other listers, yet, I'd be hard-pressed to make a call on that. At any rate, if that *were* the case, I'm quite accustomed to having people attempt to manipulate or direct me, and as a result, I have become necessarily accustomed in trusting my own judgement (and myself as a human being.) I know my motives. What else matters? >Sorry if my post came across to strongly in the context of the "little >green" thread specifically, it's the principal of the thing that I felt >was important to state. Thank you, Penny. LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 11:06:23 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Death of a Thread NJC In a message dated 9/25/99 7:36:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, de_merle@iagora.com writes: << The thread did seem to end sort of abruptly...but I don't think it was "ended" by anyone in particular. I had hoped to contribute, but a friend was dying and I was otherwise occupied. It seemed to me that the same points were being made by several people, whether or not that is the case or I was just tapped out, I haven't explored, however, when I got back to the list, I didn't have the motivation to dig for points that might be expounded on. >> First off, I hope that your friend AND you are feeling ok. I've not ever had to face such burdens,yet, but my heart goes out to you. Second, having been a member for a while, my observation is that threads are funny things. Some never make it past the person's first post, some get kicked around for an exchange or two, some are like a dog's favorite old bone; they never die, but resurface again and again and again, sometimes ad nauseum. And I would be hard pressed to pick why some threads die. I know that others have felt that they have been posting into a void and wonder why their intelligent, thoughtful comments were never batted around in threadlike fashion while more banal or silly themes grow and produce digests the size of my home repair "to do" list. Such is life on the jmdl and I think that those who politely state their discomfort are not censoring, per se, although I understand Penny's point. I think that it is just another point of view, which in turn, can open up another thread. In this case: "what is privacy," which Mary P. started in on and several contributed. Having just typed that out, it occurs to me that the "little green" thread has just shifted course and morphed into "what about privacy," which included a little side trip down the "James Taylor possible Joni and Baby Song" stream, which also started a tiny trickle of "what about Joni's dad?" As everyone else has pointed out, the discussions were really, really terrific! Kakki has remembered that this thread has gotten heated in the past and Mark commented on past flame wars. I remember those as well and I think that the list has come a long way to have these differences without the bush fires that used to consume us. MG - between soccer games and weekend home improvement projects.... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 16:23:37 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Death of a Thread Penny wrote: > Mark wrote: > > < known but I honestly didn't think they were trying to censor anybody.>> > > But if a lister (or a minority few listers) lets the list know they are > uncomfortable with a current thread, the participants of that thread > have to choose to willingly and knowingly continue to make others > uncomfortable or discontinue the thread. It does become a way for > censorship if you are truly respectful for others' feelings. (Which I, > for one am.) This is beginning to sound as if we who did write of our discomfort shouldn't have-subtle censorship? people need to be free to espress their feelings on any given subject. How others respond to it is their responsibility. People react to things for a variety of different reasons but those reasons are with in them-no one 'makes' another person feel anything. > The "little green" thread > participants were largely very sensitive women listers. i think there are also very sensitive men on this list, some of whom participated in this thread. > So by some > stating their discomfort with the topic, even though acknowleding all of > the posts in that thread had been highly respectful, insightful and > sensitive, the thread was ended out of respect for the feelings of those > that stated their discomfort. That was not the intention of those who expressed discomfort, me included, and we cannot be held responsible for people deciding to end it. It was their choice. > And also to be factored in was the > subject matter of "little green"....personal (but in print) and painful > details of Joni's life. I saw no one trying to second guess Joni's very > tough decisions, but rather to examine why she had to make them and the > ramifications they have had on her career. To be *examining* with other > participants what other listers were uncomfortable with, suddenly made > me feel like I'd been called a voyeur, whilst i am sorry you felt that way, it was not the intention and we can't be held responsible for the way you felt. We are beings who have the power of choice which includes the choice of how to react to something. We cannot blame others for our feelings. > It seemed more like an subtle form > of manipulation, determining list content of what should be discussed > and what should not, out of respect for Joni and her family, than a > simple case of free speech being exercised. I am surprised you interpreted it this way. It would be easy for me to interpret this mail that way, but I choose not to. I can see that your feelings are hurt even tho I don't believe Gina or I or anyone is responsible for that. > > > This is just an observation, but when "discussion" becomes an unsafe > thing to do for the more sensitive posters, whether it be because of > flame wars, nasty tempers or subtle forms of manipulation, our wonderful > discussion list looks more like a "discussion of lists" than a > "discussion list." I would just hate to see the "discussion" aspects of > our list die out in favor of many listers just throwing out funny crumbs > instead. It's great when we can have both! In the two years of being on this list I have experienced many wonderful mails. There have been flame wars, there have been nasty comments made, people being insensitive to eachother, misunderstandings etc. But most of all it has been a real pleasure with the positive far outweighing the negative. It has been a great learining ground also, at least for me, and even the 'negative' posts have taught valuable lessons.Speaking for myself, there is no one on this list whom i strongly dislike, there are one or two I don't communicate with but this is from distrust not from dislike. I have found so many people on this list to be loving and warm and intelligent and funny. As I have said before, I would still be as cynical as I used to be had I had not discovered this list and that the world does contain really good people. And it hasn't just been mail-sevral people have sent me things, at their expense. Penny, I am sure no one intended to hurt your feelings in way shape or form. I think those of us who expressed ourselves did so out of our natural desire to share how we felt about the issue, which is our human right to do. bw colin > > > Sorry if my post came across to strongly in the context of the "little > green" thread specifically, it's the principal of the thing that I felt > was important to state. > > Penny - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 10:36:07 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Gods and Monsters (NJC) Hello All- I just had to post a little bit on the movie I saw a couple of nights ago called Gods and Monsters. I really enjoyed this flick and thought it was very well done, especially the acting. I don't know if this movie had been mentioned on the list before, but I thought I would seeing how it made me scream with laughter and cry at times too. Michael NP-Desert Rose-Sting (off the new Brand New Day album coming out next week. All you music sluts should love this one. He is all over the place as far as the World Music thing and I dig it. He is still a monster though. And OH BY THE WAY, he is playing a VG-8 on this album [and the credits incorrectly call it a VG-8 guitar synth as opposed to a Virtual guitar or guitar modeler. That's one that makes me go......hmmmmmmmmmmmm?......... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 16:51:42 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Gods and Monsters (NJC) I haven't had a chance to see it yet. It satrs, if my memory is correct, Brendon Fraser(without his loincloth) and Sir Ian McKellen. Is it not a true story, about some film director? bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 11:19:35 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: FTR Songbook (NJC) Hi Cat- I had some of my books bound a Kinkos. They have that plastic kinda spiral things. It's better than screwing them up with glue. I especially like them on my bigger books like Beatles Complete, cause it makes it easier to flip and stay on the page you wanna be on. Good luck! Michael NP-Cooling-Tori Amos/To Venus and Back ------------------------------ Date: 25 Sep 99 13:04:18 EDT From: Brian Gross Subject: re: Let's run away (NJC) Kakki said: Hey, can we all get a big old bus like the Cowsills or the Partridge Family and run away together and take traveling Jonifest on the road. I'm ready to go now. Well, after spending the last 3 days driving thru PA and OH putting 1200 miles on the car, I'm ready also. And I'll take the first shift driving the bus! When and where do I pick it up, Kakki? ALL ABOARRRRRRRRDDDDDDDD (Watch your step, please) Brian "No paper thin wall, no folks above. No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 14:29:34 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Gods and Monsters (NJC) michael, you're so right!!! this movie made me laugh and cry [the same release, you know]. ian MacKellen [sp?] and brendan frazer [sp?sp?sp?] are stupendous. but lynn redgrave is a show stopper too! the novel, with all its references to charles laughton's 'proclivities' [was there ever an uglier man than charles laughton?] and his wife elsa lanchester [the famous bride of frankestein] is even better: HIGHLY RECOMMENDED. mind you, this movie can be devastating too. it's at once a little camp and melancholy. rent it! wallyk -----Original Message----- De: Michael Paz Para: Joni Digest Fecha: Sábado 25 de Septiembre de 1999 09:53 Asunto: Gods and Monsters (NJC) >Hello All- > I just had to post a little bit on the movie I saw a couple of nights >ago called Gods and Monsters. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 10:33:29 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Gods and Monsters (NJC) > I haven't had a chance to see it yet. It satrs, if my memory is correct, Brendon > Fraser(without his loincloth) and Sir Ian McKellen. Is it not a true story, about some > film director? > bw > colin > The character in the movie that Ian McKellen plays is based on the film director James Whale whose most famous movie was 'Bride of Frankenstein'. The story of 'Gods & Monsters', however, is an invention based on a novel (I forget the name of the book and the author). If you haven't seen this, go rent it. It's a wonderful movie. McKellan should have gotten the Oscar, imo, as well as Lynn Redgrave. Brendan Fraser shows real acting chops in a very difficult role. An independent film, I believe, that shows that movies can still be something besides special-effects driven action & violence fests or potty humor, dick-joke driven so-called comedies. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 13:07:39 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Gods and Monsters (NJC) catman wrote: > > I haven't had a chance to see it yet. It satrs, if my memory is correct, Brendon > Fraser(without his loincloth) and Sir Ian McKellen. Is it not a true story, about some > film director? > bw > colin Colin The director of Frankenstein, and Bride of Frankenstein James Whale. Lynn Redgrave was unbelievably good. I didn't even realize it was her till half way thru the movie. She plays the old mans housekeeper. Michael NP-Supergod-CycleFly (just came in the mail) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 15:27:59 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: Gods and Monsters (NJC) a sweet, sweet, movie i saw the movie with michael yarbrough and david wright on a ny visit, and we all enjoyed it thoroughly. the best moment was during the closing credits when the two women behind us yelled 'lynn redgrave!'. they hadn't recognized her, which shows you how good she is. it really is a pleasure to find that brendan frazer, delicious eye-candy, can really act. wally's right, it does contain a lot of melancholy, a ferocious climax and a truly satisfying ending. i'll have to read the book. it's by christopher bram (did you ever read 'surprising myself', scott?) and i think the title is the same as the movie. patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 16:00:13 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Harry's House/Centerpiece NJC In a message dated 9/25/1999 9:44:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MGVal@aol.com writes: << Cat, You make perfect sense, although I see Colin's point as well. It takes two to tango. The woman takes advantage of the man's earning potential and he allows it. Neither of them make any effort to become more fully realized people. My best friend works in a bit of an upscale salon in Cherry Hill, NJ, and the stories she tells about materialistic women AND men make my head spin. Nearly every patron of that place is a ripe candidate for Harry's House. MG >> both *swimming* in their own little world. I guess that is why Joni chose a pool for the inside artwork and the songbook! Ah ha! Now I see through the glass darkly! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 16:06:35 -0400 (EDT) From: David Wright Subject: RE: Gods and Monsters (NJC) On Sat, 25 Sep 1999, patrick leader wrote: > > i saw the movie with michael yarbrough and david wright on a ny visit, and > we all enjoyed it thoroughly. Actually, I didn't see it with you all, I'm afraid. And aside from a couple of striking scenes, I didn't much care for the movie! - --David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 13:22:23 PDT From: "Jerome Gonzales" Subject: Harry's 'Centerpiece' (JC?) (an offshoot of the 'Harry's House' thread) Although this might be a bit late in the discussion to join, I always thought that 'Centerpiece' being placed where it was in the song wasn't so much sarcastic as mournful on Harry's part. I interpret it as being "he drift's off into memory..." and remembers when they were in love and how they dreamed of the life they now live-house, garden and all. Getting everything they wanted pushed them apart from what they needed-each other. And the irony is that they are still each others' centerpiece, but in very different ways than they imagined. Of course, that could all be true and it could still be an intentonally sarcastic read... I love discussions like these! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 16:40:42 -0400 (EDT) From: David Wright Subject: Re: Death of a Thread (NJC) On Sat, 25 Sep 1999, catman wrote: > This is beginning to sound as if we who did write of our discomfort > shouldn't have-subtle censorship? people need to be free to espress their > feelings on any given subject. How others respond to it is their > responsibility. [snip] > whilst i am sorry you felt that way, it was not the intention and we can't > be held responsible for the way you felt. We are beings who have the power > of choice which includes the choice of how to react to something. We > cannot blame others for our feelings. I agree with the point about subtle censorship (a double-edged sword, as LL put it), but Colin, your argument about people's feelings really sounds like a "blame the victim" argument. I think we have to take responsibility for the things we do without intending to as well as the things we intend to do. Or can one direct whatever insulting, cruel, bigoted, deliberately hurtful comment one wants at another person (not that that's what happened in this thread) and then say, "I can't be responsible for how that comment makes you feel"? - --David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 21:44:42 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Gods and Monsters (NJC) We will get it out on video as soon as we can. Just got back from seeing Drop Dead Gorgeous which was much more than i thought it would be. I thought it was going to be just a silly laugh but it turned out to be a clever and biting satire. I remember reading about The Blair witch Project on this list. Can someone tell me what it is about? the ad for it made it seem it was a true story starting by saying two journo's went missing whilst making a doc in 94 and then their film was found..... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 17:54:25 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Gods and Monsters (NJC) the novel is "father of Frankenstein", by christopher bram. i really think it's worth you while, especially the "behind the scenes" fiction/memories. it's probably one of the few cases in which BOTH the book and the movie are superb. is mark scott mark of mark or travis??? wallyk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 17:59:50 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: 'blair witch' (NJC) i'm currently going through a blair witch fixation. i'm collecting EVERYTHING even vaguely related to the movie. i bought the video, the fake documentary they made with the throwout footage, the book, the poster, the t-shirt. my screen saver is the Blair witch rune. the funny thing is i still haven't seen the movie. sometimes i think i'm just a walking heap of hype-fodder. wallyk - -----Original Message----- De: catman Para: Joni Digest Fecha: Sábado 25 de Septiembre de 1999 15:00 Asunto: Re: Gods and Monsters (NJC) >I remember reading about The Blair witch Project on this list. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 21:59:41 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Death of a Thread (NJC) David Wright wrote: > On Sat, 25 Sep 1999, catman wrote: > > This is beginning to sound as if we who did write of our discomfort > > shouldn't have-subtle censorship? people need to be free to espress their > > feelings on any given subject. How others respond to it is their > > responsibility. > [snip] > > whilst i am sorry you felt that way, it was not the intention and we can't > > be held responsible for the way you felt. We are beings who have the power > > of choice which includes the choice of how to react to something. We > > cannot blame others for our feelings. > > I agree with the point about subtle censorship (a double-edged > sword, as LL put it), but Colin, your argument about people's feelings > really sounds like a "blame the victim" argument. not at all and my previous posts over the last two years make it clear I am the last person to blame the victim as you put it. > I think we have to take > responsibility for the things we do without intending to as well as the > things we intend to do. that goes without saying but I don't feel it applies to this situation. > Or can one direct whatever insulting, cruel, bigoted, deliberately > hurtful comment one wants at another person (not that that's what happened > in this thread) that is exactly it-it does not apply to this thread. If anyone had been deliberately nasty or whatever, then of course that would not have been right. however, that is not what happened. Some people, including myself, sahred our feelings on a subject. Another person chose to take offence at that. I am not responsible for that interpretation. In the long run we are all responsible for our feelings. There are times i forget this and blame someone else for making me feel bad but I know in my heart that is not true. If it is then i have no power and you all have it. The quality of my life would be totally dependant upon how others treated me, behaved towards me or spoke to me. I used to think that was so. now I know different. It is within my power to allow others opinions to wound me or not. i know this is true from personal experience. I have been a victim, i know what that feels like. Even today I know what it is to have people, on a daily basis, in one form or another, abuse me or my fellows, to regail aganist me, to condemn me, to read in the papers yet more vileness concerning people such as myself. In the past this all made me feel bad. Today it doesn't. And not because it stopped. No, i changed my attitude. I know they are wrong for one. i know they come from a place of fear and ignorance. To put it simply if you wish to call me names or denigrate my charcater, that is your choice. It would be my choice as to whether I would let it hurt me. If i let it, then i have given you my power. I try hard not to do that anymore. You are right tho in that this can be used by people to abuse people and blame those they abuse. The person doing so will not escape the consequences. the person on the receiving end needs to know what poer they own-this will pour cold water on their attempts to hurt and denigrate. In fact, it is one of main weapons abusers use but it is a false one and relies on others allowing them to. bw colin > and then say, "I can't be responsible for how that comment > makes you feel"? > > --David - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 00:03:52 +0200 From: "Peter Holmstedt" Subject: Plug Of The Week #37 Hi there, One of the best concerts I've seen so far this year, has got to be The Amazing Rhythm Aces in front of an all-exstatic audience in Malmo, Sweden, late July. This band really, really cooks! Imagine my surprise (and happiness!) when I receive a brand new live album in my mail box a couple of days ago : Amazing Rhythm Aces - Live In Switzerland ( Blue Buffalo ) The album is recorded in Bern on May 2, 1998. It contains several songs from the three "comeback" albums the band have made in the 90's, as well as some older favorites from the band's 70's repertoire. Russell Smith's voice is better than ever, James Hooker's piano fills can move mountains, Billy Earhart's B3 organ is just georgeous and "Stick" Davis bass is solid as a rock! Copies of this GREAT album is available from : Blue Buffalo Records PO Box 1520 881 55 Lindenberg Germany Phone: 49 (0) 8381 3628 Email: info@blue-buffalo.com Website: http://www.blue-buffalo.com "Live-music-is-better"-bumper sticker should be issued! Take care, Peter ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 17:11:13 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: Thanks for the memories! (NJC) M.G. wrote: "Side note: It's great to see you actively back on the list, Mary! I've missed you!" Thank you very much, M.G.--it was great to see your name numerous times on the last digest, as well! I've been "lurking" for much of 1999, but read the JMDL religiously (if sometimes a week or two late), and occasionally, just can't resist jumping foursquare into the debate. And I also can't help noting, especially in light of the recent, "how I discovered the JMDL" thread, that today, incredibly, marks my third anniversary of list membership. In that time, I've had the privilege of participating in the most consistently stimulating and enlightening cyber-cafe I can imagine, learned to celebrate and respect many different points of view, laughed so many times I can't count them, and made the acquaintance numerous new friends, by e-mail and in person, around the globe. And oh yes. . . there was the small matter of that memorable encounter in Detroit in late October of 1998! ;-) So thank you, Les and Wally, for helping us all to find one another. And thanks for maintaining two of the very best sites on the Internet, ever: no contest!! Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 15:35:02 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Re: Death of a Thread LL wrote: <> I haven't seen anyone welcome you to the list let, LL. May I say I've enjoyed each of your contributions and hope you post as often as your time permits. As for your above comment, I love seeing the self-confidence and intelligence that's been reflected in your posts. I know my motivations too, and my post was all about principals, not about pointing any fingers or expressing I had been hurt. I honestly felt not one iota of hurt, but rather some disgust for what I saw as a subtle form of manipulation. Sometimes it seems manipulation is least likely to be recognized by the ones who are doing the manipulating, a blind spot. I just wanted to suggest motivations be checked before posting to the list, if such a post could thwart a thread enjoyed by others. Of course, everyone should have freedom of expression, but hopefully experience and wisdom will direct when it's best for that freedom to be exercised, and how to do it. My personal feelings about the thread content were not involved, it was the principals of what may discourage open discussion that I was trying to convey. Again, LL, a hearty welcome to the list! ;-) Penny ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 15:45:59 PDT From: "John Low" Subject: RE: Harry's House I wonder if others sometimes read the JMDL with the same sense of frustration as I do - because, no sooner do I get my thoughts together about a particular topic than someone else has already said what I was going to say and/or the discussion has moved on to another thread. I’m just too slow! However, before the 'Harry’s House' thread finally winds to a close, I want to say that I agree with Debra Shea who said (Friday 24 Sept. Digest 430): “… since the song to me is about the emptiness and harshness of life if owning material goods is all you're focused on, and all your self-worth is based on, I like having an image of the NYSE as part of the song.” 'Harry’s House' is more than just the story of the breakdown of a single relationship. It is a glimpse into the ‘flip side’ of our consumer society. There is an attractive surface to this world of affluence and status that hides a corrupt reality beneath – “a dragonfly on a tomb” – where priorities are distorted and relationships destroyed, where people become blind to the true “centerpiece” of their lives. Joni Mitchell is one of the most insightful critics of modern ‘western’ society. John (in Sydney). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #432 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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