From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #430 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Friday, September 24 1999 Volume 04 : Number 430 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: hissing demos, njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: Let's run away (NJC) ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Let's run away (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: for the roses repair (NJC) [dsk ] Re: Harry's House/ Centerpiece [dsk ] Re: hissing demos, [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: hissing demos, BYT, woodstock and dreamland [LLDeMerle ] Re: HELLO JMDLs [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: Artist's songs for their children NJC [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: Reply to Gina, and a movie [Dflahm@aol.com] drawing the line, was: Reply to Gina, and a movie [LLDeMerle ] Re: hissing demos, BYT, woodstock and dreamland ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: that picture at the back of 'For the Roses' [LLDeMerle ] Re: Harry's House ["Catherine McKay" ] Joni's father, II ["Pitassi, Mary" ] Re: Joni Sleeves [IVPAUL42@aol.com] RE: Joni Sleeves [Louis Lynch ] Re: that picture at the back of 'For the Roses' [Scott Price ] RE: Harry's House ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: hissing demos, BYT, woodstock and dreamland ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: hissing demos, BYT, woodstock and dreamland [catman ] Re: Harry's House [catman ] Re: Joni Sleeves [catman ] Re: Top Joni Tabloid Headlines ... absolutely NJC ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: hissing demos, BYT, woodstock and dreamland [catman ] Re: Top Joni Tabloid Headlines ... NJC ["Catherine McKay" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 04:41:02 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: hissing demos, njc so who's my branch or leader or whatever is called? desperately, wallyk - -----Original Message----- De: CaTGirl627@aol.com Para: wallykai@interserver.com.ar ; joni@smoe.org Fecha: Jueves 23 de Septiembre de 1999 22:08 Asunto: Re: hissing demos, njc >It already is on a CD Tree called CD Tre vol. 1 >Catgirl working on CD Tree vol. 2 > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 04:42:48 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Let's run away (NJC) oh kakki, why can't we all adopt one another and become flower children or something? ah the 90's, the 90's... wallyk - -----Original Message----- De: Kakki Para: joni@smoe.org Fecha: Jueves 23 de Septiembre de 1999 23:37 Asunto: Let's run away (NJC) >Hey, can we all get a big old bus like the Cowsills or the Partridge Family >and run away together and take traveling Jonifest on the road. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 00:31:00 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Let's run away (NJC) > oh kakki, > why can't we all adopt one another and become flower children or something? > ah the 90's, the 90's... > wallyk Wally, I flipped over your set on the tapes. Hearing everyone off the DAT tapes, straight into the soundboard, without any distractions is amazing - like hearing the Gold CD version of it all. Magic, I tell you, it was magic. Kakki NP: The Atty May Sessions - (holy moly - Paz and ChuckE are incredible musicians) >Best recorded band line/chatter "we're either going to order Tequila or we're going to play Tequila" >Best unrecorded band chatter when I turned up my nose at playing some Neil Young "Kakki we've been wearing dresses all weekend already" ;-D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 04:05:31 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: for the roses repair (NJC) "William C. Burnworth" wrote: > Hey Catgirl, I've been cogitating about your loose pages, trying to > remember what bookmakers use that's acid fee for adhesive. Then I > remembered that rubber cement is actually acid free! Test it on > something similar (but not precious) to make sure it doesn't stain. If > not, collate your pages, coat them, slip that cover on thenweigh it down > for a while. There's probably something more permanent available, and > you might want to search bookmaker's adhesives, but I think this will > work. Good luck! This might work OK since the rubber cement will only be in contact with a very thin edge of the paper and that kind of glue is flexible, BUT while it's drying (which takes years) it will seep into and destroy whatever paper it's on. And then once it dries, it's no longer adhesive. I say this while picturing a favorite early collage that was ruined because I'd used rubber cement as the adhesive; within a year you could see the strokes of the rubber cement brush through the paper -- a learning-the-hard-way experience that makes me very wary of using rubber cement for anything. Wish I knew something more positive to tell you. I don't know what kind of glue is used for books, but that would probably be better for you. Certainly it would be less chancy. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 04:49:04 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Harry's House/ Centerpiece > mark.travis@gte.net writes: > > << Harry as Jonah in the ticking whale that is New York City. >> > > IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > I thought Jonah in the ticking whale was another taxi reference as Harry is > swallowed up by a cab, whose meter makes the ticking sound. Hmmm, I usually imagine the ticking whale to be the New York Stock Exchange, since its reason for being is to make money and then to make even MORE money. And I picture the massive space and the quotes on the electronic stock ticker constantly changing and flickering as it goes around. Plus, for the people inside, once the stockmarket opens there's no getting out or stopping for anything until the closing bell sounds -- focused to the point of ignoring everything except the pursuit of money -- and then they're all disgorged onto Wall Street to go home. Not that I picture Harry working within the building itself, but since the song to me is about the emptiness and harshness of life if owning material goods is all you're focused on, and all your self-worth is based on, I like having an image of the NYSE as part of the song. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 07:47:58 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: hissing demos, In a message dated 9/23/99 9:51:56 PM US Central Standard Time, CaTGirl627@aol.com writes: << Catgirl working on CD Tree vol. 2 >> Hurry up with that CD tree already! And what about the video tree, Catgirl!? You need to quit goofing off and get to work! (I'm joking, sweetie!! Retract those claws...) New subject: Little Joni mention in the morning paper, from a Boston Globe article actually...it talks about Meshell Ndegeocello's "Bitter" and compares it to the sadness of Blue. Bob NP: Go Tell The Drummer Man - Second Fret Sets ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 07:52:57 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: hissing demos, BYT, woodstock and dreamland At 09:54 PM 9/23/99 +0100, catman wrote: Today it suddenly dawned on me she was taliking about her >boyfriend/husband. here, if someone refers to 'my old man' they are >referring to their father. Depends on where you're coming from in the timeline. Some years ago "my old man" and "my old lady" and "momma" were terms of endearment for one's significant other...Summer of Love-ish era. LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 07:58:15 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: HELLO JMDLs Thanks, Mark. Yes, I'm an old timer but that's not from 1947 or anything just 1995, when I first got access to the web. How many of you started up your first search engine with the name Joni Mitchell? In those days the only thing that would come up when I put Joni's name into Yahoo was a page called Famous Canadians which had a list of her albums and a couple of sound bites. This obviously was extremely meager. Then just when I had given up hope some guy out in San Francisco started his deep blue website and I was in heaven!!! How many of you remember when Wally first started up his site and the bio sections were slowly being constructed like a great monolithic sculpture. I would log on every morning to see the updates and read every section like it was a novel I couldn't put down. Every time a new photo would come up I would squeal at my desk and my office mates would look at me like I was a madwoman. AH those were incredible days. I can't thank Wally enough for the unending JOY that site brings me to this day. It's a masterpiece. But there was always one thing missing from the whole experience and that was the discussion list. When Les started the JMDL almost a year to the day later I was one of the first ones to sign up. The rest is history. Today I am still as much into Joni Mitchell as I was in the old days but other priorities have intruded. When you love someone like Joni she either commands your full attention or you have to let her go completely. There is no inbetween. Slowly but surely though I'm giving her the space she demands again. The rusty old ovation is tuned to Moon at the Window right now, and about a week ago I was practicing a song I never attempted before: Black Crow. Man, that song rocks. I was listening to Turbulent Indigo for the first time in a couple of months yesterday and that album will always be one of my personal favorites. The depth of the music, the lyrics, and the PAINTINGS! are just phenomenal. I could go on and on ... Anyway, thanks to all of you for making this list such a vital organism. These days it's quite a tidal wave, and I'm on ONLYJONI digest, I can't imagine what it's like getting all posts individually. I think whoever is doing that daily should get the I Love Joni the Most award. (if there can ever be such a thing) Obsessively yours, Sue At 6:52 PM -0700 9/23/99, Mark or Travis wrote: >> Yes I do, I luvya ... > >Hey Sue! We love you too! Come out & play more often! > >Mark in Seattle (who misses one of the very first members of this >discussion list, Sue McNamara - she was also the first person I ever >discussed Joni with online, even *before* there was a JMDL) ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ weekend email address: suemc16@webtv.net "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 08:32:15 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: HELLO JMDLs Sue wrote: << I was practicing a song I never attempted before: Black Crow. Man, that song rocks. >> Amen to that, ESPECIALLY on Shadows & Light and Double especially on her '98 tour with Greg Liesz on the pedal steel guitar...he is truly a phenomenal player - the new "color" Joni threw into this song on this tour really brought it alive again! Besides talking to Joni in Atlanta, I was thrilled to talk to Greg and let him know how much I enjoyed his work on the show, particularly on Black Crow. He's gotta be one of the busiest session guys out there, he's on like every new CD I buy! << I can't imagine what it's like getting all posts individually. >> For me Sue, it's A LOT easier than being on digest...I don't need 20-30 minutes to hunker down and read a digest, I can just spend seconds going through the individuals... But I'll have a bunch to wade through when I come back home...I'm going to Raleigh this week for a reunion of my old Youth Choir circa '73-'76. We're gonna hang out, reminisce, rehearse and sing some our old songs in Church Sunday morning! It promises to be a very emotional weekend... Bob NP: Chicago, "State of the Union" (before they even THOUGHT about sucking) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 08:44:24 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Artist's songs for their children NJC Well, that's a good deal more authoritative than my unsourced opinion. DL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 08:47:41 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Reply to Gina, and a movie Helen, on the subject of the Hinton book...I started it but when I realized how poor it was, I abandoned it. I'll bet I'm not the only one to react that way. D LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 08:53:51 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: drawing the line, was: Reply to Gina, and a movie Where the line should be drawn...the answer to this question is subjective, at best...everyone has an opinion. As a freelance writer who prefers profile assignments to others, I say that the line is drawn by the person who actually conveys the information. The difficulty in this is that publications have varying places where they want that line drawn, and the reason for that is their readership. When I write for a trade-type or specialty magazine, such as Acoustic Guitar, they want absolute high quality, focus on the music, pieces. When I write for newspapers' Arts or Living editors, they want a bit more insight into the person and their life. Weekly entertainment newspapers want as many thrills as they can squeeze out of you and even freely edit, change and "pump up" your work to titillate their readers, much as the tabloid rags do (I assume, not being a reader?) The bottom line is MONEY. Getting people to pay to read the publication, because print media has primarily become not about reporting and sadly, in some cases, not about reporting with accuracy, but about entertainment and generating revenue. In wrangling with these idealistic-busting realities, one ultimately makes a decision on whom they wish to work for. Back to the line: Once decided to whom one will submit their tender observations on a subject and their body of work, the writer must decide what is appropriate to actually ASK the interviewee. Personally, I don't pry...irritated interviewees are likely to become *uncooperative* interviewees and there goes my paycheck. If they OFFER private information, as some will do if they become very comfortable, I am then left with yet another decision: was this information meant for the public or only for myself? Sometimes the person will *tell* me not to publish and if I hope for further contact with the person at some future date, I had darned well better NOT spill it or else my bridges are burned, and believe me, those bridges are important. One interview leads to referrals to peers for statements and some interesting conversations which offer particular insights as well as being a whole lot of fun...and leading to more interviews, generally, if one wishes. It's up to me what gets written, and how the subject is portrayed. I draw the line on what goes to my editor, and which editor that will be. LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 08:55:26 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Bette Midler (NJC) side-comments etc. Mark or Travis wrote: > On the TV movie 'Gypsy', Jerry has this to say: > > > I agree with patrick, and I have both the cd and the video. The cd > is great to > > listen to, but the movie is hard to watch. Bette shows little > restraint. > > and I reply: So what's restrained about Mama Rose?? She's a pushy, > driven, overbearing woman. Bette played her to perfection, imo. Acting is more than chewing up the scenery. No one is all push and shove. > > > Jerry continues: > > The movie with Roz and Natalie Wood is the one to watch, though Angela > Lansbury is > > the best Mama Rose I've seen. > > and me again: I've never seen any of the stage versions but the > Rosalind Russell/Natalie Wood version has been running a lot on AMC > lately. As much as I love Roz, everytime she opens her mouth to sing > in this movie the whole thing stops dead in the water and just kind of > lays there til she's finished. This is one role where the actor > playing it can't fake their way through the singing. Kinda like Lucy > in the wretched film of 'Mame' (but poor Lucy was following in the > footsteps of *both* Ms. Russell and Ms. Lansbury). Roz didn't have > the voice and if she couldn't sing it, she shouldn't have played it > imo. I don't think she could have played in the musical 'Mame' either > if her singing in Gypsy was any indication. You better put on that suit, Mark. Comparing a great actress like Roz to one dimensional Lucy (as much as I love her, too). Both can't sing but Roz sure can act. My point is that her Momma Rose had much more depth, and therefore believability, in my opinion. np: Sting on Today ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 06:21:22 PDT From: "Ben Mulvey" Subject: that picture at the back of 'For the Roses' Of course, as I am mainly a lowly lurker on the JDML list (but a lurker of 2 years standing!) - what I am about to ask has probably been discussed a gazillion times - and I've missed it. But I was a bit shocked today to discover that pic at the back of the lyrics book in my CD of FTR. You know the one I mean, woman with her back to us standing at the edge of the sea, oh, and she's buck naked - and I assuming its Joni - the woman has her hair anyway. Ummm, I know Joni carefully considers all the artwork on her album covers but it does lead you to wonder what she is trying to get accross...... Striking similarity with one of the Hits & Misses covers also - wouldn't you say? Is there a message there ? Ben ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 06:32:50 -0700 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: Joni Sleeves Paul I writes: I think Mingus is a wonderful album, though it is only partly Joni. OTOH, I think DED is a dog and cannot think of two songs from it that I like enough to rank in her top 50 recordings. Paul, Please listen to Ethiopia again -- it is a musical and lyrical masterpiece! So is Three Great Stimulants. I always considered Dog Eat Dog one of Joni Mitchell's best works -- experimental, expressive, cutting edge, and totally there. I don't like that Thomas Dolby "Science" thing, personally, but I was always really impressed with the album overall. Listen again. Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 06:32:06 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: hissing demos, BYT, woodstock and dreamland > Depends on where you're coming from in the timeline. Some years ago "my > old man" and "my old lady" and "momma" were terms of endearment for one's > significant other...Summer of Love-ish era. Long before that, I believe. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 06:36:25 -0700 From: Louis Lynch Subject: Joni Moment I am currently registering my new "Sketchbook" CD with ASCAP. On the front cover of the ASCAP brochure, in the most prominent position layout-wise, is a photo of Joni, smiling and bereted, from the Turbulent Indigo days. Her photo appears again inside the brochure, on one of the very first pages. And the same photo appears on a one-page brochure that accompanies the packet. It's obvious from the positioning that the people at ASCAP consider her one of their brightest stars! Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:40:30 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: that picture at the back of 'For the Roses' > >But I was a bit shocked *snicker* 8<-------------------------------------------------------------------->8 >today to discover that pic...woman with her back to us standing at the >edge of the sea, oh, and she's buck naked - and I assuming its Joni - the >woman has her hair anyway. > >Ummm, I know Joni carefully considers all the artwork on her album >covers but it does lead you to wonder what she is trying to get >accross...... > > >Is there a message there ? > >Ben Vulnerability in the extremist form up against the powerful forces of nature capable of swallowing one whole equally competently as soothing the naked soul as depicted in the profound imagery demonstrated in "Nude Facing Sea." Submission? Challenge? Endurance? Or, Ms. M may simply consider the human body a work of art, artist that she is. LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:47:48 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: hissing demos, BYT, woodstock and dreamland That's only as far back as my memory permits. :S L. At 06:32 AM 9/24/99 -0700, Mark or Travis wrote: > > Depends on where you're coming from in the timeline. Some years ago >"my > > old man" and "my old lady" and "momma" were terms of endearment for >one's > > significant other...Summer of Love-ish era. > > >Long before that, I believe. > >Mark in Seattle LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 06:46:27 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Bette Midler (NJC) side-comments etc. > > and I reply: So what's restrained about Mama Rose?? She's a pushy, > > driven, overbearing woman. Bette played her to perfection, imo. > > Acting is more than chewing up the scenery. No one is all push and shove. I know that. But I still think Bette was great. Can we agree to disagree (for once)? > You better put on that suit, Mark. Comparing a great actress like Roz to > one dimensional Lucy (as much as I love her, too). Both can't sing but > Roz sure can act. No arguments here. I certainly didn't mean to put Lucy in the same category as Roz. 'Auntie Mame' is one of my all-time favorite movies. The film version of the musical 'Mame' is a bust which is too bad but it's mostly due to the miscasting of Lucy in the title role. Lucy could never have pulled off something like 'His Girl Friday' (how can people talk that *fast*?) or 'The Women'. My point is that her Momma Rose had much more depth, > and therefore believability, in my opinion. Again we disagree, but so what? Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 06:50:25 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: that picture at the back of 'For the Roses' > > Striking similarity with one of the Hits & Misses covers also - > wouldn't you say? > > Is there a message there ? I think that's a beautiful photo, very tastefully done. The nude human form has been a part of art for as long as there has been art. I don't think any message is intended except for maybe 'I'm lookin' way out at the ocean/love to see that green water in motion'. It's a photo of a free spirit taken (I believe) on her own land doing just that. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 11:30:05 EDT From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: Re: artists songs for children (NJC) Jess wrote: << " in many cultures around the world, music faclitates and plays an important part in life-cycle event. >> This is so true, and reminded me of a past article that was in my newsletter ( The Light Network Home Page ) several years ago, which I thought was wonderful, and speaks to this: Celebrating Birth in East Africa author unknown There is a tribe in East Africa for whom the birthday of a child is not counted from the day of its physical birth nor even the day of conception. For this tribe, the birthday is the first time the child is a thought in its mother’s mind. Aware of her intention to conceive a child with a particular father, the mother goes off to sit alone under a tree. There she sits and listens until she can hear the song of the child she hopes to conceive. Once she has heard it, she returns to her village and teaches it to the father so that they can sing it together as they make love, inviting the child to join them. After the child is conceived, she sings to the baby in her womb. Then she teaches the song to the old women and midwives of the village, so that throughout the labor and at the miraculous moment of birth itself, the child is greeted with its song. After the birth, all the villagers learn the song of their new member and later, sing it to the child when it falls or hurts itself. It is sung at times of triumph, or in rituals and initiations. This song becomes a part of the the marriage ceremony when the child is grown, and at the end of life, his or her loved ones will gather around the deathbed and sing this song for the last time. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 11:35:37 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: HELLO JMDLs In a message dated 9/24/1999 8:01:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sem8@cornell.edu writes: << How many of you remember when Wally first started up his site and the bio sections were slowly being constructed like a great monolithic sculpture. I would log on every morning to see the updates and read every section like it was a novel I couldn't put down. >> Welcome back, Sue! Hey, I remember those old days too; I think I came in right after you. Now we have to pull you into a JoniFest! Get those calluses toughened up. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 08:36:56 -0700 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: artists songs for children (NJC) Ashara, This is beautiful! Wow, Americans sure lags behind other cultures, don't we? Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 11:59:35 EDT From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: Re: TAPE TREES Jess wrote: << i would LOVE any info on tape trees!!!!! >> For all the newbies...the best place to read about tape trees: JMDL Tape Trading Information Even though the trees are "closed" a polite request to the list usually succeeds in making sure you do not get left out. For anyone needing the video trees, please e-mail me privately, and I'll make sure you get them! Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 11:09:28 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: Joni's father Terry wrote: " ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 16:27:08 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Harry's House On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, I wrote to David (re: Harry's House): "Then, who is she yelling "Get down offa there?" at while she's asking Harry when he's going to be home? You don't have kids, do you... And David replied: "No, I don't. But we had to yell that at the dogs (though Joni, of course, is a cat person) many a time in my family." It did occur to me that she could be yelling at dogs, or even cats (some of them actually DO listen!), but kids seemed the more likely to me, even before I had any of my own. Kids have a built-in radar, whereby they can be behaving perfectly well one minute, then, once you get on the phone, they're all over the place, climbing up on the kitchen cabinets to get a glass (the falling off and smacking themselves a good one on the chin, necessitating a trip to emerg for stitches), or fighting with one another, or acting like clowns while you're trying to deal calmly and professionally with whoever you're talking to on the phone. The way Joni yells "Get down offa there!" is very familiar. I think the lady has had it up to here and is ready to crack. She has been able to fill the void for a while with busy work, having the house done and spending Harry's take-home pay, but the relationship has gone to hell in a handbasket. I feel kind of sorry for both of them, but it's a very typical scene - people too busy being busy to actually stop and assess their lives and what it's all about. They bought into the "happily ever after" thing, the "Modern Bride" and "House and Garden" mags and so on, but one day they woke up and realized it was all just a sham. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 11:33:10 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: Joni's father, II Oops--sorry to all about that premature "send" a while ago! Terry wrote: "It's interesting that we've talked so much about Myrtle on this list, but what is her father like? What's her relationship with him now? I don't even know his name!" Bill! And I was going to state that this now constitutes my shortest e-mail ever in the history of the JMDL, but of course, the one I sent a few minutes ago was--and of course, I can't let things go with a one-word answer. ;-) The impression Joni has given me over the years of her father, in songs and interviews, is of someone substantially more spontaneous and "live and let live" in his general attitude than her mother. I seem to recall that he was a member of the Canadian military forces (Air Force?) during World War II, and met, wooed and married Joni's mother in the space of a month. Of course, maybe this suggests that Myrtle herself may be a bit more spontaneous than Joni often gives her credit for! Then, of course, there's the portrait of her father the emerges from "Let the Wind Carry Me," where he seems to appreciate and encourage the songwriter's "wilder" or less conventional side ("he says, 'leave the girl alone, mother / She's looking like a movie queen"). Finally, I remember an interview with Joni, circa 1979, which I think may be found in the JMDL website's Articles section. I believe she tells of bringing her boyfriend at the time, Don Alias, home to Saskatoon, and telling her parents all about the progress of her various pending projects. Her father listened, looked at her, and said something like, "Joan, you *have* had an interesting life!" Mary P. P.S. I apologize in advance if anything in the above is inaccurate: I'm writing it from memory. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:28:17 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Sleeves In a message dated 9/24/99 9:33:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Louis.Lynch@wonderware.com writes: << Please listen to Ethiopia again -- it is a musical and lyrical masterpiece! So is Three Great Stimulants. I always considered Dog Eat Dog one of Joni Mitchell's best works -- experimental, expressive, cutting edge, and totally there. >> I've listened to the entire album at least 50 times, and a tape with 3 songs from DED an equal number. I like Three Great Stimulants, though I would not rank it in my top 50. Ethiopia, to my ear, is about as bereft of human emotion and memorable melody as the Ethiopian desert is of water. Each time I listen to DED, I enjoy it less and less. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:43:15 -0700 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: Joni Sleeves Paul wrote: <> Oh Paul, Oh Paul, "Ethiopia" made me break down and weep the first time I heard it. And the second, and quite a few thereafter. Every time I hear it (hundreds), I still get goosebumps. It's one of the most emotional songs I know of. And after I listen to it, the refrain goes through my head for days (just like any other respectably memorable melody). Even though everyone is different, rightly so, I am surprised that you would consider the song bereft of emotion. Perhaps it is the fact that she's singing about a situation that is in itself bereft of human emotion (the politics of letting people on this planet starve to death). If you really feel that way, then Joni has succeeded admirably -- the song may be affecting you on a deeper level! Or maybe I'm overanalyzing and you just think it sucks. Vive la difference! Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:51:00 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: Re: that picture at the back of 'For the Roses' At 06:21 AM 9/24/99 PDT, Ben Mulvey wrote: >Ummm, I know Joni carefully considers all the artwork on her album >covers but it does lead you to wonder what she is trying to get >accross...... Ben, The following quote is from an interview Joni gave for Rolling Stone magazine, July 26, 1979, regarding the nude photograph from FTR... - ------------------------------------------------------------------ "I remember my mother putting on glasses to scrutinize it more closely. Then my father said, "Myrtle, people do things like this these days." Which was a great attitude. It was the most innocent of nudes, kind of like a Botticelli pose. It was meant to express that line: "I'm looking way out at the ocean, love to see that green water in motion, there's this reef around me {"Lesson in Survival"}. Joel Bernstein is the only photographer I would feel comfortable enough to take off my clothes for. It was part of our concept for the cover when we were going to call the album Judgment of the Moon and Stars. We were originally going to set that photograph in a circle and replace the daylight sky with the starry, starry night, so it would be like a Magritte. At that time, no one was paying homage to Magritte. Then Elliot said, "Joan, how would you like to see $5.98 plastered across your ass?" {laughs} So it became the inside." - ----------------------------------------------------------------- "Elliot" would of course be Elliot Roberts, Joni's manager, who apparently did issue sound advice once in a while. ;-) Also, I liked Kakki's tongue-in-cheek supposition from several months ago that this photo was a precursor for one of the lyrics in "Lead Balloon" from TTT....."Kiss my ass, I said!" :-D Scott ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:01:17 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Harry's House/Centerpiece Evian, you say that (to you) "Both Harry and the Wife are unsympathetic, and the "When will you be home, Harry?" seems to me to be the stereotype of the nagging wife yelling at the "Trapped" husband. However, ole hubby is no saint, it works both ways." That's interesting. I actually DO find them kind of sympathetic, because they are so much like so many real people that all of us know. I will add a caveat, in that, if they don't get that psychic kick in the ass (which is probably going to have to come from within themselves), they're going to stay in their own little hell, at which point they WILL become unsympathetic. I see them as both recognizing the hell they're in, which is possibly the first step to changing their values to be focussed more on their own and others' emotional needs rather than the physical assets of the perfect house, the shiny car, and so on. To me, the woman is the same woman that is also in the title song on HOSL. In that song, she's pacing the perimeter of their fancy home recognizing the shallowness and materialism of their existence. Then you get to Harry's House, and Harry's off on another business trip, and she's losin' it. I think there still might be hope for them, however slim. In fact, and sadly, what will more likely happen is that they'll end up turning to booze and drugs, having an affair or two or three or more, and divorce. THAT may end up being the kick they need to start over with someone else or by re-evaluating their lifestyle choices. Just my opinion. I don't think I've ever read any Cheever. I must admit I find the stories of suburban hell verrry depressing and I avoid them like the plague. I did see the film "The Ice Storm" and yes, I found it depressing. I really don't think people need to be that way, but our society is so geared to material and financial success that the emotional and spiritual side is often left wanting and, as a result, so many people end up that way. There's a lot of pressure but I still believe people have free will and can choose to change their lives, even if it's only by one small thing at a time. Just my $2 worth on a gloomy day. Cheers. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:06:30 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: RE: Harry's House Brett says, "While I agree that she is probably speaking to her children, it could be her dog. I've had to say that more than once to mine, and I've even had to elevate my voice from time to time (and felt guilty about it afterwards)." As well you should! ;) In my experience, dogs are more likely to listen than children are. Dogs want to please the alpha "dog"; kids like to push the envelope as far as they can! Ultimately it's probably not a bad thing - you don't want them to be automatons. But sometimes you just wanna kill them! cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:18:26 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: hissing demos, BYT, woodstock and dreamland >Went off to Norwich today to collect Haley from her honeymoon. Is Haley your dog? That's funny, because my sister's dog is named Haley too - - I think they may have named her after the comet because she was always taking off (Australian shephard - they love to jump and run. This puppy could leap a 6-ft fence, no problemo, and she'd run all around the town, before being apprehended by the local Humane Society. My sister was prepared to let them keep her, because she was sick of paying the fines. Fortunately, Haley matured and stays put now.) >On BYT, i had always been confuse as to why she would mention her >father >in this song-I had assumed her father and left home when she >was a kid. On >this list i discovered that was not so. So why the >line 'took away my old >man'. Today it suddenly dawned on me she was >talking about her >boyfriend/husband. here, if someone refers to 'my >old man' they are >referring to their father. To make it doubly confusing, it can mean father here too. My Dad often referred to HIS Dad as "my old man" (in jest, of course). I think the referral to a boyfriend/husband/lover is probably fairly recent - it was used a lot during the hippy era. (In Blue's My Old Man, she definitely isn't talking about her father - Lord, I certainly hope note!) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:22:01 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Harry's House >Ooops sorry to all concerned that was supposed to go just to wally. (A likely story!) ;) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 18:22:18 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: hissing demos, BYT, woodstock and dreamland It also depends on the country you are in. LLDeMerle wrote: > At 09:54 PM 9/23/99 +0100, catman wrote: > > Today it suddenly dawned on me she was taliking about her > >boyfriend/husband. here, if someone refers to 'my old man' they are > >referring to their father. > > Depends on where you're coming from in the timeline. Some years ago "my > old man" and "my old lady" and "momma" were terms of endearment for one's > significant other...Summer of Love-ish era. > > LL > > ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v > http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html > de_merle@iagora.com > > "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again > and expecting a different result." > ~Albert Einstein > - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:09:13 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: RE: Harry's House >Who is she yelling at to "get down off of that sofa!"? >some anal-retentive brat, perhaps? >wallyk > Touche, Wally K! That was a good one! (Are there any accents on this darned e-mail program, or what?) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 18:28:32 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Harry's House Persian cats DO listen. I only have to hiss at mine and they stop. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 18:24:44 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Joni Sleeves I agree with you about DEd, one of my favourites. But we can't all like the same things! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:30:17 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Top Joni Tabloid Headlines ... absolutely NJC Joisey goil MGVal pipes up to say: >Not to add to this fray, but "pavement" can also be a genetic word >for >"green lawn" in some parts of New Jersey.... > >(;-^ OK. I'll bite. Are you serious?? Do they actually call the grass "pavement", or do they just pave their front lawns over? (I know a few people who have done that, because they hate mowing the lawn! but these are usually people who live in smaller houses in the inner city where the front lawns are the size of postage stamps anyway and not worth the bother of mowing. Those with more aesthetic inspirations would more likely turn the front yard into an English-garden type of thing.) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:37:17 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: hissing demos, BYT, woodstock and dreamland Come on! You're going to leave me hangin' with that?? :) At 06:22 PM 9/24/99 +0100, you wrote: >It also depends on the country you are in. > >LLDeMerle wrote: > > > At 09:54 PM 9/23/99 +0100, catman wrote: > > > > Today it suddenly dawned on me she was taliking about her > > >boyfriend/husband. here, if someone refers to 'my old man' they are > > >referring to their father. > > > > Depends on where you're coming from in the timeline. Some years ago "my > > old man" and "my old lady" and "momma" were terms of endearment for one's > > significant other...Summer of Love-ish era. >"It is better to be hated for what you are >than to be loved for what you are not." >TANTRA'S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS >http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk You know...I LOVE this quote, here. ^ LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:36:52 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: let those rock'n'roll choirboys... njc bye bye, bob. have fun and shed a tear or two. and come back soon: the list NEEDS ya! wallyk >But I'll have a bunch to wade through when I come back home...I'm going to >Raleigh this week for a reunion of my old Youth Choir ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:41:58 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: Harry's House At 06:28 PM 9/24/99 +0100, catman wrote: >Persian cats DO listen. I only have to hiss at mine and they stop. BTW: Any advice with Maine Coon Cats? One has come to live with us and...although a very sensitive spirit, she can be very fussy and belligerent. LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 18:37:22 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: hissing demos, BYT, woodstock and dreamland To make it clearer: I said 'my old mean' refers to a father here, here you said it depends on the time line I replied that it depends which country you are in meaning that here it still refers to a father and always did.(tho of course with so many regional accents/dialects here it could be different in another region) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:43:58 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Harry's House & HOSL On the subject of Joni's singing of "Centrepiece", Mark said: "That's a neat take on it, I never heard the sarcasm in Joni's vocalization, just the "prettiness" of it," and Paul replied: "I don't think "Centerpiece" is sarcastic so much as a flashback to a happier time for the woman, who had high expectations for her love and life that have not come to pass." Wow - I think it's BOTH! That's what's so marvellous about it. And Evian's comparison of Harry's House to Cheever, and wondering why he didn't think of playing the song for his course... Joni has an entire story in what is really a pretty short song. She can say so much with what amounts to very little words - and the nuances in her singing are just amazing and so evocative. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 18:10:23 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Top Joni Tabloid Headlines ... NJC Helen, on my remarking that, "...after my son was born, my next-door neighbour, who was originally from New Zealand and is a nurse, asked me whether his "little um-bi-LIKE-le" had fallen off yet. We tend to pronounce it "um-BILL-acle" so it took me a few seconds to clue in to what she was talking about!", clarifies with, "Whoever this person was, they do not speak like the rest of the New Zealand population! Umbilical is pronounced over here as "um-BILL-i-kill", as you pronouce it there, so I don't know where they got that one from!" Hmm, maybe she lied when she said she was a New Zealander. I had to consult my Oxford concise, which gives BOTH pronunciations. Maybe it's a regional thing. I've also found often with health professionals they pronounce many medical terms strangely (to me anyway.) It may depend on where they went to medical school. My obstetrician pronounced "centimetre" almost the French way as "sahntimetre" whereas I would say "Sent-imetre." Maybe it's a way of keeping themselves distanced from the rest of us peons. > >(You say tomayto, I say tomahto, and all that jazz.) >And we say tomahto. > (We need to reverse this then, because I say tomayto!) ;) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 18:42:29 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Reply to Gina, and a movie Mary wrote: "And do I know where the line should be drawn between what is acceptable to be known of an artist's private life, and the parts that should be off limits even for one in the public eye? Hell, no! And if anyone has figured out the answer to *this* one, I'd love to hear it." And Helen replied: "I'll probably get flamed for this one, but I've always thought that anyone who "puts" themself in the public eye by becoming a performer, should "expect" people to want to know about their lives. And personally I've always thought that in order to do well in the entertainment industry, you have to be somewhat conceited, and hence like the attention, or you'd never make it." Well, OK, if you're out in public, then I supposed you have to expect to be recognized and deal with it. Even writers, who used to be able to sell books while remaining fairly anonymous (at least, in the sense that they may have had their fans and followers, but probably wouldn't be recognized on the street), are now expected to go on the talkshow circuit and chat it up - and since many of them are very introspective, shy people who have difficulty expressing themselves in ways other than writing, it must be very difficult for them. Not in all cases, of course. Some of them love the celebrity bit, but it's all very personal. Some people think that if you're in the public eye, they have a right to walk into your house and go through your personal things (and I mean that in both the physical/literal sense as well as in the emotional/figurative sense). If a famous person's marriage goes on the rocks, or they're having trouble with their kids, or they're having drug or alcohol problems, it's still personal - that's not part of their life as a "celebrity", even though it may affect who they are and how they express themselves. If they choose to talk about it - that is, among those who aren't exhibitionists, who would be more than happy to share anything and everything, no matter how inane, whether we wanted to know about it or not! - they usually make a decision to go public because they believe their experience may help others in similar circumstances, which is very noble of them. (Could that sentence have been any longer, do you suppose?) So Joni's decision to go public with Little Green was made at a time that was good for her, probably because she needed to know what had become of her child. The important thing is that it WAS her decision. Before that, it was no one's business except those directly involved (Joni, Kilauren, the adoptive parents). >There always seems to be far more bad press than good. Many people in the public eye believe there IS no such thing as bad press! The newspaper article I read about Diana Ross's assault of a customs official quoted someone trying to imply that Diana may have done this deliberately to get some publicity because her latest record wasn't selling very well. There are some people who probably would do this, but I find it kind of hard to believe of Diana Ross, especially if you saw the picture in the paper. There's poor Diana Ross looking harried, but still exotically beautiful, surrounded by cameras snapping away. >If no one cared about the private lives of famous people, there'd be >no >market for biographies, autobographies, and even the "trashy >mags" that >print complete crap! Some of them are so badly written I like to read them just for a laugh as an example of BAD writing. >No one is going to want to read MY autobiography (not that I've >written >one) Oh, c'mon now! You may be wrong - get writing, girl! >but if Joni published one tomorrow, how many Jimdlers could say they >wouldn't want to read it! Not I! >And (bad as it may be) how many have read Brian Hinton's book?! I can honestly say, I haven't. Did I miss much? cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #430 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! 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