From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #426 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, September 23 1999 Volume 04 : Number 426 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Bette Midler (NJC) side-comments etc. ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Diana Ross Arrested NJC [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: little green... (NJC) [TerryM2442@aol.com] Donald Freed Epic ["Happy The Man" ] Re: Here we go again..... [evian ] RE: Bette Midler (NJC) side-comments etc. ["patrick leader" ] Re: Harry's House & HOSL [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Will the real Graham Nash ... [Debby Magill ] songbook with loose pages! HELP! [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Reply to Gina, and a movie ["Kakki" ] Re: Artist's songs for their children NJC [Dflahm@aol.com] canadian english NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] david's mother NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: Bette Midler (NJC) ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re[2]: Gram Parsons Tribute On W54th St. [RAVEN@igc.org] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:50:49 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Bette Midler (NJC) side-comments etc. > > > mark already weighed in on this. i don't own it. i anticipated the > premiere of the tv movie so much, and was oddly disappointed. i'll have to > watch/listen again. in general, i've found her live performances, albums > and movies of the last few years more polished and less inspired than most > of the stuff i've already reviewed. I pretty much agree with Patrick about Bette's output in recent years, especially the movies. Although 'The First Wives Club' had some funny moments in it I found myself wanting to shake Bette and tell her to stop doing the same old schtick, fercrissake! She seems to be playing variations of the same character over & over again, doing the same mugging, the same delivery, etc. She's better than that! She just needs a really juicy role! But I did like 'For the Boys' and I thought she was on fire in 'Gypsy' although a lot of my love for 'Gypsy' comes merely from the thrill of seeing Bette in a musical, something she was born for, imo. I also liked the record 'Some People's Lives' although one might say that it doesn't hit the emotional highs of some of her other records. Wonderful singing, though and very effective in its own, subtler way. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 19:15:15 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Harry's House & HOSL (the "Centerpiece" section harkens to the > time when that was their song, or some other time that was special to them). I always thought the 'Centerpiece' interlude was meant as an ironic comment on the couple's situation. The person singing 'Centerpiece' describes an idyllic 'house & garden somewhere, along a country road a piece, a little cottage on the outskirts, where we can really find release'. But Joni's vocal rendition seems tinged with a certain amount of sarcasm to me and the person singing the song describes their spouse or partner as 'my centerpiece' implying that they are a posession or an object. I also used to think of this song in terms of the insensitive male who has put his career way out in front of his wife & family. But as time has gone on I also see the woman as someone who is less than blameless for their situation. Joni describes the families of these 'paper minded males' as 'their paper wives and their paper kids' who 'paper their walls to keep their gut reactions hid'. To me these lines imply superficiality and vanity. The family seems to have lost all ability to relate to each other (or maybe anbody) in any kind of emotionally honest way. I never thought of Joni as having much sympathy or empathy for the people in this song. The same with 'Otis & Marlena' which almost seems downright nasty in places. But these posts of Bob's and Steve's have my brain whirring, rethinking my position on this.... Maybe Steve & Bob could tell us why they think Joni is showing understanding & compassion for the characters in this song? > Anyway, there's definitely 2 sides...Joni gives us pieces of the puzzle for > both, but as always, no easy answers. God, I love her for that!! No argument from me, here, Bob! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 22:20:31 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Diana Ross Arrested NJC In a message dated 9/22/1999 9:55:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, revrvl@pathwaynet.com writes: << So lets give Diana a break. Her reaction was what we raise our children in Michigan to do! >> A halleluja to that, Rev! Terry, from Michigan and former neighbor to loads of Motowners ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:49:46 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: little green... (NJC) In a message dated 9/20/1999 4:49:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << In my opinion, majoring in art is one of the hardest courses to pursue in college. It is time-consuming, labor-intensive, expensive and you can't simply read a few chapters in the textbook at the last minute before an exam to get by. >> Kakki, This is so true. Besides the above, it's also an area of study where one can be openly humiliated if the produced artwork isn't "up to par". I remember cringing during the weekly critiques, where everyone had to line up their art on the wall while the teacher walked by, making comments. Unlike academic classes, most students had no idea how the others were faring- everyone was on equal ground more or less, though I hear law students get their fair share of open criticism. Bravo to your parents who believed in you and your then- chosen avocation. My mother, too, was happy that I went into the arts. She had been a dancer in her youth. It wasn't until later that I realized I needed other skills which would allow me to support myself. So, I worked towards a teaching certificate in art. Never used it, though. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 21:43:13 -0500 From: "Happy The Man" Subject: Donald Freed Epic I have been spending a quite a bit of time listening to TTT, and see almost a wave of relationship in Love Puts On A New Face, Stay in Touch and Face Lift. It could be that those three songs just paint unbeliveable pictures that you seem to fill in the canvas as she sings but the relationships in those are so strong and prevelant that I wonder how much each song speaks of a time in their relationship. Beginning, middle & end. Just thinking. I would like to get people's views on this then maybe share some of the emotion that goes with each song. Peace, Craig NP: Julie Miller-Broken Things ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:53:28 -0600 From: evian Subject: Re: Here we go again..... Ashara Darling wrote: > Who cares if they use dice, tiles, or elephants? It was cute. Can't we just > leave it as that? > > Ashara {who gets sooooo very weary of seeing "Joni-isms" shot down by > "corrections."} > You said it, Sister Friend! Who gives a rats ass if it's played with frigging BOWLING BALLS? Some folks need to chill out and grow up. Yours, Evian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:12:55 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: Bette Midler (NJC) side-comments etc. thank you so much to mark for completing my thoughts. i couldn't get to it... >I pretty much agree with Patrick about Bette's output in recent years, >especially the movies. Although 'The First Wives Club' had some funny >moments in it I found myself wanting to shake Bette and tell her to >stop doing the same old schtick, fercrissake! for those who loved her, a film career for bette seemed obvious. and she really was brilliant and got tremendous attention in 'the rose'. then she finally did a concert movie, 'divine madness' (a film that lives in one of the deepest chambers of my heart) which got incredible reviews when it opened, but seems not to have been a success financially. her next film and her career were jinxed. many years later, disney took a chance on her and a few other has-beens and filmed 'down and out in beverly hills'. and when that film worked, disney made 'ruthless people'. they're both very fun movies, and bette has had a good and profitable career since then because of them, which makes me happy. but as far as i'm concerned we've seen dribs and drabs of bette's talent when we used to get waterfalls. it's frustrating. >the thrill of seeing Bette in a musical, >something she was born for, imo. no argument there, my friend... i wish i cared more for her performance in gypsy. >I also liked the record 'Some >People's Lives' although one might say that it doesn't hit the >emotional highs of some of her other records. Wonderful singing, >though and very effective in its own, subtler way. > i like it too, and will be probably be giving it more listen this week, as a result of these posts. i also own 'bette of roses' and 'bathhouse betty', her most recent recordings. for us addicts, these are unavoidable. i'd still say to joseph or anyone else, please consider the recommendations i made about the first 5 or 6 albums. if you want to appreciate one of the great living vocalist/performers... patrick np - jane siberry - lips ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:17:37 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: CD Covers (the side) NJC We've been threading about album & cd covers which many of you have listed some great ones. Well I was just thinking about the sides of CD's, not because of the beauty naturally, since a quarter of an inch can't display that much. I'm mentioning this because as many of you, like me, have your CD's filed like books on a shelf. Even though my rather large collection is alphabetized, when freinds come over and I go to my CD shelves to quickly put on music, I tend to grab the ones that SHOUT at me since I can hardly read the titles. So many of the sides of the CD's are in black or white, and at a distance all look the same. I think that it is smart of the packaging artist to make the sides so you know what CD it is without looking. I do keep my Joni CD's separate, so I'm not including those. Some of the CD's (which I enjoy) that I tend to put on the player when I'm in a hurry are: Natalie Merchant's "Tiger Lily" The Police "Synchronicity" Grace Jones "Island Life" Peter Gabriel "US" Aretha Franklin "Aretha" Tom Petty "Full Moon Fever" B-52's "Cosmic Thing" and the one that really shouts at me is Pet Shop Boys "Very" in it's bright orange cover. Do any other *blind* listers ever notice this? Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:25:08 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Diana Ross Arrested NJC In a message dated 09/22/1999 9:05:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mark.travis@gte.net writes: << Diana Ross now has a criminal record here in the UK. She objected to being searched before she boarded Concorde this lunchtime so she assaulted the guard. I hear she's changing her name to Zsa Zsa. Mark, in Seattle, Dahling >> Well I read that when they searched her she started singing "......Upside down you turn me ........", and after her arrest she belted out "I'm Coming Out". Sorry, couldn't resist Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 00:31:50 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Harry's House & HOSL In a message dated 9/22/1999 6:19:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, steve@psitech.com writes: << Over the years, I've always heard the HOSL version of Harry's House as a woman-as-hero, man-as-villain song. I was probably influenced by my age, and the times, in which business=bad, rebellion=good. Isn't it great that the woman finally gives this creep the boot? >> Interesting enough, I never felt that way at all. I always looked at poor Harry married to a women who only wanted him for his money. Being lost in House and Gardens with all his money to spend it on for yellow checkers in the kitchen and climbing ivy for the bath and then all she can do is nag him. When you gonna be home Harry and then yelling at the kids, "Get down off of there", and then thinking I sure am sick of that sofa. I wonder just how old that sofa was? A few month maybe a year. ...just what she could do with Harry's house and Harry's take home pay..... Catgirl ps one of my all time fav songs ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 00:32:49 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Artist's songs for their children NJC In a message dated 9/22/1999 6:25:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jason.maloney@virgin.net writes: << Phil Collins - Father To Son Richard Marx - Angel's Lullaby Sinead O'Connor - My Darling Child Chris Rea - Josephine Chris Rea - Julia The Lightning Seeds - Life Of Riley >> ...and Cat Stevens Father and son! Cat... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 00:34:19 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Sleeves In a message dated 9/22/1999 6:25:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jason.maloney@virgin.net writes: << once saw a huge CMIARS promotional poster in the window of Tower Records in London, and in that size the qualities which Don mentions really do have a marvellous impact. My Mum has always regretted not asking the store if she could have it when the promotion was over. She loves the colours in it as well! I have to say that I also love the back-cover photograph, with its gorgeous colours and the coolest poncho.... :-) There are times when I wish that had been used as the front cover. >> I just won one that is 24 by 36 on eBay. I just got a frame so now I am just waiting for the poster!! Whooo-Hoooo! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 21:40:05 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: RE: Joni Sleeves Wally K wrote: <> I've got that MTV "quick blub" interview you're quoting on tape around here somewhere. She said she and Klein were driving home one night on the PCH (Pacific Coast Highway) when a drunk crossed the median and slammed into them. She said "it was good thing they were in a Mercedes cause it was really heavy, like a sherman (tank) really, if we had been in like a Pinto we'd been totalled." (said with a really heavy Canadian accent) Then, and I can't remember if it's from the same interview, but different snippet she said the picture on the back of DED is one she took of the crash seen and a dog just happened to stroll into the picture when she snapped it. The cracked windshield you can see in the pic is where Joni's head hit it. MTV did the interview from somewhere in LA (Kakki?) where she was exibiting some of her paintings with people like Jack Nicholson, Shelly Duval and Sheena Easton there to catch the showing. Penny ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 21:36:06 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni Sleeves Penny wrote: > Then, and I can't remember if it's from the same interview, but > different snippet she said the picture on the back of DED is one she > took of the crash seen and a dog just happened to stroll into the > picture when she snapped it. The cracked windshield you can see in the > pic is where Joni's head hit it. Wow, I never knew that photo was from the actual accident. Wonder if we (hopefully) will see the original at the exhibit in Saskatoon. > MTV did the interview from somewhere > in LA (Kakki?) where she was exibiting some of her paintings with people > like Jack Nicholson, Shelly Duval and Sheena Easton there to catch the > showing. And I want to hit my head on a windshield everytime I'm reminded of this! ;-D It happened directly across the street from me at MOCA (Museum of Contemporary Art) - but since it was long before Joni list, internet and inside scoop and information, I missed it. Arrrrr...... Kakki NP: Nick Drake - Time of No Reply ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 01:14:32 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Harry's House & HOSL In a message dated 9/23/99 12:35:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, CaTGirl627@aol.com writes: << Interesting enough, I never felt that way at all. I always looked at poor Harry married to a women who only wanted him for his money. Being lost in House and Gardens with all his money to spend it on for yellow checkers in the kitchen and climbing ivy for the bath and then all she can do is nag him. When you gonna be home Harry and then yelling at the kids, "Get down off of there", and then thinking I sure am sick of that sofa. I wonder just how old that sofa was? A few month maybe a year. ...just what she could do with Harry's house and Harry's take home pay..... Catgirl ps one of my all time fav songs >> That's closer to my take on it. Harry married a shallow, gold-digging shrew and Harry has distanced himself from her by devoting himself to his career, and now has a low opinion of all women, not only his wife but those other "beauty parlor blondes with credit-card eyes." Paul I ------------------------------ Date: 23 Sep 99 01:16:36 -0500 From: Debby Magill Subject: Will the real Graham Nash ... From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Graham Nash Breaks Both Legs In a message dated 9/22/99 9:13:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TerryM2442@aol.com writes: << Not to diminish the sadness of this news, but isn't it interesting that Graham has a son named Will? Wasn't that Joni's nickname for him, or did everyone call him that? Terry >> I don't know about everyone, but I have heard the other members of CSN&Y call him "Willy" during concerts. I never thought that it was a name that Joni gave to him, but merely that she used it. Paul I Hi to all! I often wondered about the Willy think, too, until I found out that Graham Nash's full name is "William Graham Nash". That explains why some people call him Willy and why he named his son Will (I assume that's short for William making him his namesake)! I wonder what his son's middle name is. Has anybody heard how Graham is doing since his accident?? I hope he's not in too much pain ... please fill me in if you would. Thanks! Debby in Madeira Beach debbyis@prodigy.net Download the Austin Powers Browser at http://www.austinpowers.com/Browser/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 01:39:23 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: songbook with loose pages! HELP! Hi friends! A few years ago I ordered *For the Roses* songbook from this place (can't remember where..figures!) It was there last one (sound familiar Kakki?) Anyway, when I got this book the first 20 pages where loose and now they are completely out meaning that the binding in some songbooks really suck! Is there anyway I can either get it fixed or fix it myself using a SPECIAL kind of glue or am I stuck with a loose songbook? The book is in MINT cond. otherwise. If I do glue them in I will go to Kinkos and make some copies of the loose pages (Joni Fest 2000 give-a-way??) And, If I ever get a scanner i would like to send some pics to the list! Catgirl ps I just (finally) discovered that the pic on For the Roses is a horses arse!! DUH!!!! We need to do a thread on the whole concept of this LP unless of course it was already done....DOH!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 22:15:54 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Reply to Gina, and a movie Mary, thank you for your thoughtful post. I've seen the "Little Green" thread come up at least 3 or 4 times since I joined the list and it has sometimes in the past reflected some harsh and even nasty appraisals of Joni's character. I defended Joni back then and was actually flamed a few times on and offlist and accused of being some kind of Joni sychophant with no critical reasoning abilities. When I saw the thread emerge again recently, I feared, maybe prematurely, that there would be more Joni bashing on this topic and I simply wanted to in a little more than my two cents in her defense. I believe that everything I wrote was based on what either Joni or others have stated in publically-available interviews. The best intentions, however, sometimes create new dilemmas, like evoking uncomfortable feelings in the people. I feel terrible about that, and would never, ever want to say things here that would hurt Joni or her family. I do think, like Michael pointed out, that if Joni *is* listening, she is mostly laughing her ass off. At least, I hope she is! ;-D Kakki NP: Nick Drake - Time Has Told Me ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:46:55 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Artist's songs for their children NJC I know a lot of Mercer songs, but can't think of anything with "Birthday" in the title. LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 02:58:14 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: canadian english NJC Catherine, I've found your post on Canadian/British/American usage so very useful. I have been frequently puzzled by the seeming inconsistencies in Canadian usage. Now, thanks to your post, I understand a lot more about the way Canadians conceive themselves as speakers of English. WallyK > >Not to belabour/belabor the point, but I'm Canadian, not American, and we >tend to go one way with certain meanings and spellings and the other way >with others. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 03:13:40 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: david's mother NJC david, i always forget to write about this, but, if i'm not mistaken, the words of one of my favorite songs in the world were written by your mother: i can't give you anything but love, baby. i listen to it constantly, especially ella's version on the intimate ella album. can you perhaps share with us what it meant to grow up with such a talented parent? best, wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 03:18:08 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Bette Midler (NJC) one of my favorite songs on the for the boys soundtrack is ps, i love you. but there's one line i can't understand. at one point close to the end bette sings, "i've done my best to obey all your wishes..." and then there's the line i can't get. can any of you guys help me? wallyk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:33:34 -0700 From: RAVEN@igc.org Subject: Re[2]: Gram Parsons Tribute On W54th St. Mary Grace wrote: >Yee gads!! I love Gram Parsons! His duet w/ Emmylou Harris >on "Love Hurts," is an all time favorite. > >Does anyone have any idea when this will air? >I would truly consider staying up late for this show!! It appears that early November is probable in most areas... the schedule for the next two months of Sessions on W54th Street is: Ruben Blades (10/01) Sheryl Crow / Macy Gray (10/08) Los Lobos / Diana Krall (10/15) Robert Cray / Kim Richey (10/22) Parliament/Funkadelic / Cibo Matto (10/29) Gram Parsons (11/05) Branford Marsalis / Cesaria Evora (11/12) Chris Isaak / Dixie Chicks (11/19) Jewel (11/26) But remember, this program is shown on different schedules in different cities, and in the Bay Area, all three local PBS stations have different schedules for the same show. Mary Grace, I assume you view KVIE... check for their November schedule when it appears. -------- I had some unexpected Joni-content in my life last weekend. I was attending a show in Santa Cruz and bumped into Leslie Mixon and Steve... and between sets, the show's producer had a contest, with CDs as prizes for the winners... contest consisted of trivia questions asked of the audience... first correct answer got a CD... one questions was "who has painted the album covers for most of her releases during the last 20+ years"? Winning answer, of course, was Joni. John - waving to Leslie and Steve in Santa Cruz RAVEN ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #426 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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