From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #422 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, September 21 1999 Volume 04 : Number 422 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: Joni in the tabloidsNJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: Joni 2000 Tribute Festival ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Biographical info. (was little green) ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Biographical info. (was little green) [MGVal@aol.com] Re: Biographical info. (was little green) ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Marian/boomer tv alert NJC ["Julie Z. Webb" ] Van Gogh Quote - SJC [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: Big Day's Here!!! NJC ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: little green... (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Re: Joni's Covers [Jason Maloney ] Re: A Slut's Sampler From Hell (NJC) [Jason Maloney ] Re: little green [zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny)] Re: little green [catman ] re: little green ["Amy" ] Re: Best album covers ever (now NJC) [Jason Maloney ] Re: little green... (NJC) ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Little Green ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: little green... (and introduction) ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: little green... ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Best album covers ever (now NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Re: little green... njc ["Catherine McKay" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 04:26:23 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Joni in the tabloidsNJC i weighed 5 kilos, what's that? 12 lbs.? and i was ALSO born in 15 minutes, like you colin. i guess i was eager to get spanked by that handsome ob with the mustache. wallyk - -----Original Message----- De: catman Para: MGVal@aol.com CC: Joni@smoe.org Fecha: Lunes 20 de Septiembre de 1999 19:37 Asunto: Re: Joni in the tabloidsNJC I was born in 15 mins from water breaking to me on >the bed. Even then i knew who I needed to get away from!So how much were YOU when >you were born? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 04:34:59 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Joni 2000 Tribute Festival michaelmichaelmichaelmichaelmichaelmichael!!!! you got all worked up and excited now! you mean we won't have to wait a year to get together again? let the countdown begin, please, sir. wallyk, wondering what size new orleans mosquitoes are i'm o-----Original Message----- De: Michael Paz Para: Joni Digest Fecha: Martes 21 de Septiembre de 1999 00:05 Asunto: Joni 2000 Tribute Festival >***********Attention all time, space, and just plain travelers ************ >Soon you too can be traveling in some kinda vehicle towards beautiful N.O. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 01:33:49 -0600 From: evian Subject: little green Gina wrote about Anne Sexton: > However, some of my most cherished moments > > reading her poetry were somewhat robbed of their magic by the > background > > which accompanied them in the biography. I gained greater insight > but I lost > > some of the immediacy of just letting the words form their own > impressions. > Well, I guess I am a minority, but personally, I desire to have all the biographical info I possibly can pertaining to authors/songwriters/poets/etc. Anne Sexton is a good example. Her poetry REALLY came alive for me AFTER reading a biography. Now, this could be because my passion is life writing, and I love to make connections between the artist's work and life, and see where they intersect. For example, poets such as Sexton, Phyllis Webb, Plath, etc. really come alive for me knowing their background and personal experiences, and connecting them to their work. Same goes for authors of fiction -- Mary Shelley's Frankenstein takes on so much more meaning after you read her biography. Same holds true for F. Scott Fitzgerald and Zelda. Even theorists, like Michel Foucault, Melanie Klein, and Freud take on whole new dimensions when you apply their life to their work. Now, I am NOT saying that we must always draw on personal lives to compliment the art, but I DO find it useful to have this information.... it makes it intriguing, to say the least, and sometimes I do think it gives us a greater understanding, and also opens up many more doors to explore and question the work. And as for Joni, her work is very autobiographical, no matter what she says, and I find it very helpful and insightful to have the background of her personal experiences to enhance the songs.... even if I have a different take on a song, I still like knowing what she was intending. Evian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 23:09:44 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Biographical info. (was little green) Evian wrote: > Well, I guess I am a minority, but personally, I desire to have all >the biographical info I possibly can pertaining to >authors/songwriters/poets/etc And as for Joni, her work >is very autobiographical, no matter what she says, and I find it very >helpful and insightful to have the background of her personal >experiences to enhance the songs.... even if I have a different take on >a song, I still like knowing what she was intending. I agree. The reason I joined this list were many: to share the love of Joni's music, to exchange conversation with people around the world, but also to get insight into Joni herself, in order to understand the music a little better. There are many facts (and I use that word deliberately) that I wouldn't have learnt but for this list. We have people here who have spent time with Joni (Pat for example) and relate things first-hand. I understand that sometimes interpreting the meaning of a lyric or song can be more pleasing than the cold hard reality - for example if Little Green had just been some song she'd made up one day when imagining she'd had to give up a child, but I'd still rather know the truth! Flame away - I can take it! Seriously, I hope I haven't offended anyone (that WASN'T my intention), but this is the Joni Mitchell Discussion List, therefore I want to discuss Joni Mitchell - everything about Joni Mitchell. I'm obsessed, OK?! Helen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 23:24:55 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Joni 2000 Tribute Festival Michael wrote: >***********Attention all time, space, and just plain travelers ************ >Soon you too can be traveling in some kinda vehicle towards beautiful N.O. > I will be making an announcement next week on the dates for >Joni2000Tribute Festival in New Orleans. Oh, for God's sake! I just start to resign myself that I'll probably miss next year's Jonifest at Ashara's (sorry, but you KNOW it was a foregone conclusion) and then this happens! STOP TORMENTING ME!!!! To couple a Joni2000Tribute Festival with one of the few cities in the US that I'd LOVE to see is just too cruel - and don't flame me for that, I'm just not a "city" kind of girl. I was brought up at the beach! Anyway, I guess I'll be buying a few more lottery tickets over the next few months! Helen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 07:25:36 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Biographical info. (was little green) In a message dated 9/21/99 4:10:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, hell@ihug.co.nz writes: << Flame away - I can take it! Seriously, I hope I haven't offended anyone (that WASN'T my intention), but this is the Joni Mitchell Discussion List, therefore I want to discuss Joni Mitchell - everything about Joni Mitchell. I'm obsessed, OK?! >> Well, like Evian and Helen, I like to know the biographical facts. I'm a huge fan of Sylvia Plath and know her biographies inside and out. When I read her poetry, it's a different realm for me knowing the impact of Hughes on her writing, her childhood, her different encounters. Not at all better, just one that works for me. And the "biographical" details of JM are dealt here respectfully. It's looking at milestones in her life and trying to understand what was happening. It is less wanting to know the identity of every guy in "Cactus Tree," and more, "what makes her tick." Because she is far more a confessional poet than anything else. Of course, what makes her so great is that you can enjoy and appreciate her art on whatever level you chose: with biographical background or barely knowing her 'do history. Joni's songs work on every single level. MG np: morning pipes ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 23:44:52 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Biographical info. (was little green) MG said: >Well, like Evian and Helen, I like to know the biographical facts >And the "biographical" details of JM are dealt here respectfully. It's >looking at milestones in her life and trying to understand what was >happening. It is less wanting to know the identity of every guy in "Cactus >Tree," and more, "what makes her tick." Because she is far more a >confessional poet than anything else. > >Of course, what makes her so great is that you can enjoy and appreciate her >art on whatever level you chose: with biographical background or barely >knowing her 'do history. Joni's songs work on every single level. Now that's what I SHOULD have said! But it is 11.40pm and I'm too tired to be eloquent! Helen NP - The cat, on another of his wild rampages through the house. It's hilarious trying to watch a cat sprint around corners on a (very) polished wooden floor. Not a lot of traction! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 08:14:58 -0400 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: little green... (NJC) At 06:18 PM 9/20/99 -0700, Mark or Travis wrote: >Like Kakki, I did not end up pursuing a career in the arts. When push >came to shove I discovered that I had neither the discipline nor the >ambition to do it. I do not, however, regret for one minute the >education I received, impractical as it may seem to some. Kakki >mentioned some excellent reasons why an education in the arts is >valuable. As a result of my training in the performing arts I gained >a large measure of self-confidence that I would never have acquired >otherwise. I also learned how to think for myself and formulate my >own answers to many of life's more complex questions. > It's never too late to pursue anything! Here I thought I took one of the hardest subjects ... chemistry. Now I'm pursuing a degree in Art History. I always liked to draw from as early on as I can remember. When it came time for college, I wanted to go into painting and/or sculpture. The parents said "no, you won't make a good living at it". Hence, a degree in Chemistry and a somewhat good career. Was it what I wanted? No! Now, with the support of my loving husband, I'm going into something that really means something to me :-) I'm a rabid supporter of the arts. Mark and Kakki couldn't be more correct in saying that an education in the arts IS valuable. There are many school systems throughout the country that cut programs in the arts. Please don't let this happen in your area! Even if you don't have children ..... do everything you can to keep art, music, theater, etc. programs in our schools! Thanks for listening! Heather ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 08:58:54 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: RE: little green... Hi Kakki. I was only speaking for myself. Not trying to "make some value judgements in a self-important voice..." There are just some things I don't know and I can think all I want "as if thinking makes it so" but it doesn't. Anne Wow, it's probably a good thing I can't quote a single line from the bible - Imagine how obnoxious I'd be :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 05:45:00 -0400 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Re: Marian/boomer tv alert NJC At 03:06 AM 9/21/99 -0300, Wally Kairuz wrote: >Today is the day! >IT'S MARIAN'S BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!!!!! >Happy birthday, dear angel-voiced Marian, mistress of all things Joniesque. >I miss you! >May all your dreams come true. Happy Birthday Ms. Marian! Sydney Omarr says that "people born on this day are perceptive and intelligent. During October you will have greater freedom of thought, action. Flirtation can be delicious but could get too hot." (Whoa Marian beware of those Vienese (sp.) sausages...rumor has it that they may cause heartburn. ) "Your sense of humor is valuable and charming. PErsons who play important roles in your life couuld have the initials: C, L, and/or U." Love ya, Julie ZW ps. jmdler TV alert jmdler TV alert: For all of you out there who loved "thirtysometing," (my all time fav,) tonight directors, Herskowitz and Zwick begin their new season premiere on ABC, "Once and Again" at 10 PM EST. The review claims that "IF you're divorced, If you're a parent, If you liked "thirtysomething," chances are that this will be your favorite show this season... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:21:48 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Van Gogh Quote - SJC There is a well known Dutch Catholic author named Henri Nouwen who passed away in the mid 90's. Henri was a priest who remained faithful to his orders, even though after his death it became publicly known that he was a gay man. He remains one of the most respected and prolific catholic writers of this century and has a huge following within the catholic and anglican churches, in spite of his sexuality, which he always held close to the vest. This weekend i stumbled on a quote he mentions in one of his books and i thought i'd post it and follow it up with one of joni's which clearly comes from the same origin. The two writers, Joni and Henri are approaching different subjects, but it is neat to see two different whisps of smoke coming from the same chimney. henri nouwen: Our first and foremost task is faithfully to care for the inward fire so that when it is really needed it can offer warmth and light to lost travelers. Nobody expressed this with more conviction than the Dutch painter Vincent Van Gogh: There may be a great fire in our soul, yet no one ever comes to warm himself at it, and the passersby only see a wisp of smoke coming through the chimney, and go along their way. Look here, now what must be done? Must one tend the inner fire, have salt in oneself, wait patiently yet with how much impatience for the hour when somebody will come and sit down - maybe to stay? Let him who believes in God wait for the hour that will come sooner of later. Vincent Van gogh speaks here with the mind and heart of the desert fathers. He knew about the temptation to open all the doors so that passsersby could see the fire and not just the smoke coming through the chimney. But he also realized that if this happened, the fire would die and nobody would find warmth and new strenght. His own life is a powerful example of faithfulness to the inner fire. During his life, nobody came to sit down at his fire, but today thousands have found comfort and consolation in his drawings, paintings, and letters. Joni: You want to make Van Goghs, raise 'em up like sheep. Make 'em out of Eskimos and women if you please. Make 'em nice and normal, make 'em nice and neat. You see him with his shot gun there? Bloodied in the wheat? Oh what do you know about living in Turbulent Indigo? ....... "I'm a burning hearth," he said. "People see the smoke, but no one comes to warm themselves sloughing off a coat. And all my little landscapes, all my yellow afternoons, stack up around this vacancy like dirty cups and spoons. No mercy sweet Jesus! No mercy from Turbulent Indigo." My only comment on the quotes is that i love them both and I feel a deep sense of unity when two gifted writers converge around a shared experience. And I think now that Henri was brilliant and very strong to hold true to his heart and inner fire within a world that was totally against his genuine beauty. In a way, he is like Vincent. He has left a litany of books and a vast sense of appreciation among legalistic institutional churches that are forced to reconcile Henri's heart and love with their laws. pat ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 06:40:32 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Big Day's Here!!! NJC > Today is the day! > IT'S MARIAN'S BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!!!!! > Happy birthday, dear angel-voiced Marian, mistress of all things Joniesque. > I miss you! > May all your dreams come true. > WallyK > > HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MARIAN!! I hope you have a wonderful day! Thanks for letting us know, Wally. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:49:53 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: little green... (NJC) Gina said: <> This is WAY too common, Gina. A lot of my friends had to play on football teams, go to certain colleges, even HAVE kids of their own because of parental pressure...there's that inherent need we have to please our parents, even sometimes at the expense of our OWN happiness, coupled with a parent's desire to live vicariously through their children. The Dad who wasn't an athlete pushing his kid to excel in sports; the Mom who never thought herself pretty pushing a daughter to win a beauty pageant... But by the same token, parents DO have a responsibility to give guidance to their kids and make them realize the potential consequences of their choices. That doesn't mean you don't let them go their own way, but that the unconditional love needs to be balanced with the wisdom of a parent's life experience. Let's face it - PARENTING IS ONE DAMN TOUGH JOB! But like a comedian said, it's an easy job to get! :~) Bob NP: The Replacements, "Mr. Whirly" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 14:51:59 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Joni's Covers Bob.Muller@fluor.com wrote: > > I would rate her better covers: > LOTC > HOSL > C&S > Hejira (Photography as art) > Mingus > S&L > WTRF > TI > TTT (Love that shade of Green) > > DED would get a nod except for that 'doo! :~) LOL...well, as Joni's painting is very much part of her overall artistic raison d'etre, I'll weigh in with my favourite Joni sleeves : Hejira CMIARS Mingus C&S LOTC I'm basing my choices simply from the viewpoint of which ones look most pleasing to my eyes, rather than any deeper artistic merit or conceptual value... :-) Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 15:10:05 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: A Slut's Sampler From Hell (NJC) Helen wrote: > I just had to respond to this! I wanted to as well, as Don's selections were fabulously nightmare-ish :-) Trouble was, I tend to block out any truly awful or regrettable songs from my mind, and to come up with a Sampler of my own would involve trawling through every nook and cranny of my collection, not to mention the mental anguish of reacquainting myself with some woeful music I'd tried hard to forget! > Here's my selection (alphabetically, sorry!) literally from hell (check my > email address!): Oh my goodness, can you believe I actually have about 10 of these 14, and - worse - still love EIGHT of them???!!!! They're coming to take me away, ha ha.... > I humbly hang my head in defeat before I even start (but it was fun trying)! I must now be a certifiable music slut...which, to be honest, I already knew I was ;-) Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 15:03:23 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Best album covers ever (now NJC) Finest Non-Joni album sleeves IMO include : Tango In The Night - Fleetwood Mac Revolver - The Beatles Purple Rain - Prince Cupid & Psyche 85 - Scritti Politti Definitely Maybe - Oasis Around The World In A Day - Prince The Joshua Tree - U2 Brothers In Arms - Dire Straits Sign Of The Times - Prince The Unforgettable Fire - U2 The Colour Of Spring - Talk Talk The Division Bell - Pink Floyd A Momentary Lapse Of Reason - Pink Floyd Tunnel Of Love - Bruce Springsteen We Can't Dance - Genesis Flying Cowboys - Rickie Lee Jones Emergency On Planet Earth - Jamiroquai Jollification - The Lightning Seeds Oranges & Lemons - XTC Apple Venus - XTC Those are the ones that first come to mind, as they are also among my favourite albums to listen to. I expect there are some less-than-wonderful records with fantastic sleeves lurking in the nether regions of my collection ;-) Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:24:57 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: little green... (NJC) In a message dated 9/21/99 9:51:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bob.Muller@fluor.com writes: << But by the same token, parents DO have a responsibility to give guidance to their kids and make them realize the potential consequences of their choices. That doesn't mean you don't let them go their own way, but that the unconditional love needs to be balanced with the wisdom of a parent's life experience. Let's face it - PARENTING IS ONE DAMN TOUGH JOB! But like a comedian said, it's an easy job to get! :~) >> Very well said, Bob, and a sentiment which I share wholeheartedly. That balancing act is so very difficult to pull off. It's one I struggle with every day. While I want my children to be happy and choose their own way, I also want them to have some measure of success at eventually being able to stand on their own two feet income wise. It is so hard being a parent but as I see my children growing into people that I as well as others can be proud of , I am more gratified than ever as a parent and as a human being. Take care, Gina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:33:05 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: little green... In a message dated 9/21/99 12:10:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << I'm sorry that my participation in these threads have caused some of you to cringe or diminished your enjoyment of Joni's music. Guess I just get too comfortable around here sometimes. Kakki >> No, no...I'm so very sorry if it sounded like I was "cringing". I guess I got a little too comfortable myself in expressing my feelings around here and it came off sounding all wrong. I hope my subsequent post revealed more accurately and sensitively what I was thinking and feeling. The thread participation has been nothing but exemplary and just because I have these strong feelings about interpretation of an artist's work doesn't mean my appreciation of it is diminished. And even if it did, that's my thing to grapple with! I can choose to read it and take it with a grain of salt. I didn't mean to be critical, though I can see where my first post would indicate that I was. Again, I'm truly sorry. I'll try to be more careful how I say things. I can come off sounding rather blunt in writing at times, especially when I have limited time, I can be rather over-expedient. Take care, Gina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:42:40 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Best album covers ever (now NJC) These may be true HOWEVER one of the BEST inside covers would have to be The Allman Brothers *eat a peach* that is so cool and is ashame that they don't make LP's anymore so you can see such rich color and details.....those pics on the CD's are so tiny.... Catgirl In a message dated 9/21/1999 10:09:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jason.maloney@virgin.net writes: << Tango In The Night - Fleetwood Mac Revolver - The Beatles Purple Rain - Prince Cupid & Psyche 85 - Scritti Politti Definitely Maybe - Oasis Around The World In A Day - Prince The Joshua Tree - U2 Brothers In Arms - Dire Straits Sign Of The Times - Prince The Unforgettable Fire - U2 The Colour Of Spring - Talk Talk The Division Bell - Pink Floyd A Momentary Lapse Of Reason - Pink Floyd Tunnel Of Love - Bruce Springsteen We Can't Dance - Genesis Flying Cowboys - Rickie Lee Jones Emergency On Planet Earth - Jamiroquai Jollification - The Lightning Seeds Oranges & Lemons - XTC Apple Venus - XTC >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:46:38 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: little green In a message dated 9/21/99 3:36:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, evian@sk.sympatico.ca writes: << Well, I guess I am a minority, but personally, I desire to have all the biographical info I possibly can pertaining to authors/songwriters/poets/etc. Anne Sexton is a good example. Her poetry REALLY came alive for me AFTER reading a biography. >> Evian, As I indicated in my post, there is a lot to be gained by knowing biographical information but in my case there is the added *loss* of something really special in the arrangement of the words themselves to create their own reality and impression on the reader; in the essence their own "life". It's intangible and really hard to articulate but I believe that Lahm (thanks for your post, David!) and perhaps others understand what I'm getting at. The minute dissection and speculation is the part I have difficulty with personally. That isn't to say that I don't want to read what people are thinking about at all. It's just that reading some of the Little Green posts have brought up a lot of food for thought on the subject and I felt I wanted to share that. There seems to be such a draw for us to at least *try* to articulate our feelings about any number of things in this forum. It's a very powerful draw and one that at times puts me in a quandary because I am not always in synch with the way most of the rest of the world thinks and feels. I don't want to come off oppositional, yet I feel like I want to test out my thoughts in my own way. It is compelling. Take care, Gina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:50:39 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Big Day's Here!!! NJC In a message dated 9/21/99 2:07:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, wallykai@interserver.com.ar writes: << Today is the day! IT'S MARIAN'S BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!!!!! Happy birthday, dear angel-voiced Marian, mistress of all things Joniesque. I miss you! May all your dreams come true. WallyK >> Marian, happy, happy, happy birthday! You put your soul beautifully into the songs you sang for us at Joni Fest and I thank you one hundred times. I have not stopped being positively haunted by the beauty of your voice and your interpretations of Joni's work. Take care, Gina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 11:02:01 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: little green Evian said <> I'm in your camp here, Evian. It's not that the knowledge of Joni's personal life ruins my understanding of her songs, but rather that it adds a color and a richness to the understanding. Similarly, I just read a biography on Rod Serling that helped me to better appreciate his writing career and some of the themes he explored with The Twilight Zone. However, even with the additional information, my interpretation of Joni's work doesn't change much, just like when I sing a wrong phrase...even though I know she's singing "Lead Foot Melvin", I'm gonna sing "Liquid Melvin" every time! :~) And I also wanted to acknowledge what Penny said, this whole thread has been a GREAT example of what this group does best and is why I joined the Joni discussion list even with my diverse taste in music; you guys have a sensitivity, intelligence and warmth that is incredibly refreshing... I thought of our "Little Green" thread this weekend when I went to see "For Love of the Game". The Kelly Preston character reveals to the K. Costner character that she had a daughter out of wedlock when she was 16 but didn't tell him immediately because she didn't want him misjudging her unfairly for it. Two thumbs down on the flick though... Bob NP: John Fogerty, "Blue Moon Nights" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 11:10:45 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Happy Birthday Marian! (NJC) Happy Birthday, Marian! Did I hear you got a new guitar for your birthday? Terry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:22:00 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Bette Midler (NJC) part two > > > divine madness (1980) also contains 'Stay With Me' which is the best performance of any song by anyone ever, I think. It is the most amazing thing to watch her doing this song. > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:39:36 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Re: little green Evian said <> I suppose it goes beyond that for me. In acknowledgement and agreement with what many others have said here in the months I've been on the JMDL, Joni has been a huge part of my life for many, many years. When friends weren't always there for me, whether they simply weren't accessible at the time or because of some difference that wouldn't be reconciled, Joni was always there through her incredible lyrics. She could reach me, touch me, and comfort me just as I let my friends do when they're around. But just as I try to understand where a friend is coming from, I like to understand where Joni is coming from. And one of the reasons I like to know friends better is when they continue to do something that bugs me. Like it really bugs me when Joni is so critical of new women artists. It didn't make any sense to me because I simply don't see her artistic genius threatened by anyone. So if tying some of the pieces of the emotional trauma of having to give up Kilauren triggers Joni's feelings about her need for recognition apart from the other women artists who get more in the way of sales, good press and popular appeal, then I can better develop an attitude of compassion and understanding when Joni gets snippy again. It's the same way I would try to understand a friend, so I'm better prepared to accept what I don't really care for in them and also defend them to others. Some of the same kind of logic applies to my take on Joni's relationship with her mom. I think it was MG who first used the word "disappointment" in this thread, which I'd like to expand on. Without going into unnecessary detail, at around the same age Joni was when she got pregnant with her child, I failed in a situation that was against my parents moral and social standards. I regretted the situation I was in immediately, but my parents never found out about it. For nearly two decades I can remember thinking and feeling that the only one I never wanted to find out about this was my mother because I didn't want her to be disappointed in me. During the nearly 20 years of hiding my "unacceptable error" from my Myrtle like mom, she became increasingly rigid, harsh and judgemental in my eyes and the weight of hiding this mistake became heavier and heavier. A couple of years ago the weight of hiding out had grown worse than the fear of my mom's disappointment, so I spilled my guts to her about the whole situation. She met me with an unconditionally loving acceptance and her response to "the situation" was one of compassion and understanding. And even beyond that she gave me incredibly high praise for not only not harboring bitterness or resentment for the other parties involved, but also for my maintaining a sincere love for them. Years of carrying around a heavy burden, at least where my mom was concerned, had been all because of my fear of disappointing her. This woman that I had once viewed at an insensitive and cold hearted task master, is now a very good friend of mine. And I would hope that can be the same result for Joni and Myrtle too, if it's not already. And if this thread can in some way encourage just one person or show the necessity to come clean in getting rid of some of the long carried emotional baggage that tears away at important relationships, then this thread has great value indeed. Peace, Penny ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:19:09 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: little green > And if this thread can in some way encourage just one > person or show the necessity to come clean in getting rid of some of the > long carried emotional baggage that tears away at important > relationships, then this thread has great value indeed. I am glad for you that you have that type of parent. i must admit, I find it almost impossible to understand the fear of disappointing parents, but not completely. i feel that way towards my partner. I nevr do stuff I fear would make him be disappointed in me. I also have never told him the whole truth about my past for that reason. in fact, this list, or at least some on it, know more about the details of my past than he ever will. It wouldn;'t help him to know and it would hurt him. he is mad enough knowing some of it and besides i wouldn't want the whole sordid business to sully what we have. I am not sure I am sating this very clearly but I guess I feel if he knew all the deatils and shread in what was done to me, it would alter things in such a way that would not good. The truth isn't always the best way forward.i think it is great that people have parents they feel this way towards. I think feeling the lack of parents never goes away. Keeping that relaionship going, if it is within your power to do so, is wonderful. Relationships with people, good ones, are the most important thing, imo. Sp I am glad to hear that you and others have positive ones. > > > Peace, > Penny - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 14:58:09 -0400 From: "Amy" Subject: re: little green Hello everyone... Just had to jump out of the lurking mode and try to describe what it feels like to be an adopted child, and hear the poetry of Little Green... To those of you who know me, you already know that I have been searching for a birth-family connection for several years. Mostly to have those age-old questions answered and my curiosity satisfied...but that's a story in and of itself. I have listened to Blue for so long, it feels like it is a part of me. When I first heard Little Green, I was overwhelmed by the emotion that seems to pour from her, and have held that feeling close to my heart ever since. I hoped and prayed that that was how my birth-mom felt...you may hear sadness and regrets coming from Joni, but what I hear is love and hope. Hope that her child has a happy life, wherever and whatever it may be. And love, because relinquishing a child must be the most selfless expression of love that a parent could ever undertake. When I met Joni last year at the hotel before the concert in Detroit, I was understandably flustered...to say the least. But I wanted her to know how that aspect of her life, had touched me, as an adopted child. We spoke briefly on the subject, and I told her how happy I was for her, and the reunion between her and Kilauren. She asked about my search, how it was going, even about the laws in my state and how you could get birth records if you were born before a certain year. She squeezed my hand, looked me dead in the eye, and said," I hope you find what you are looking for." It was if we shared this little special something...even for just that brief moment in time. I will never forget how she made me feel and I think of that brief connection we made with joy and gratification. Now, for those of you with inquiring minds, I have come a long way on the search. Through the process, I found that there was another person "out there" searching for the same bio-mom that I was...surprise! I have made contact with my half-sister, who was also relinquished for adoption several years after I was born, and many, many of the questions have been answered. But let me assure you, this is a very difficult process. For the adoptee, their families, and all the people who are ultimately affected by the knowledge we gain. I think a lot about Kilauren's family and the struggle they must have gone through...and I hope that it has been a smooth transition for all concerned. For my parents, my life began the moment I was placed in their arms...I was always the one who wondered about the previous 9 months. So, to those of you who are parents, biological, adoptive, foster, whatever fits....treasure the children...give them unlimited love, let them grow and blossom under your watchful eyes. This is the biggest, most complex, hardest, yet most rewarding job that any of us will ever undertake. I can only imagine the joy that Joni must get from having that connection with her daughter and grandchildren ...and I am delighted that she has found what she was looking for. Blessings to all~ Amy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:40:48 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Best album covers ever (now NJC) CaTGirl wrote: > > These may be true HOWEVER one of the BEST inside covers would have to be The > Allman Brothers *eat a peach* that is so cool and is ashame that they don't > make LP's anymore so you can see such rich color and details.....those pics > on the CD's are so tiny.... > Catgirl Oh, I hear you! :-) Many of the sleeves I listed were of a period when vinyl was still widely available. You are so right about CD booklets taking away much of the impact and detail of colour and texture afforded by 12" vinyl sleeves. CDs heralded the end of gatefolds, and that's something I particularly miss. I don't own any Joni on vinyl, and - aside from a cellophane-wrapped remastered/re-issued LOTC on a music-store wall - have never seen those gorgeous 70s covers, certainly not as they were intended. Buying an album, and opening it up, used to feel like such an event. It gave albums the chance to have their own independent "feel" or "look", either by the thickness of card, quality/richness of printing colours and text, or in format (fold-outs, cut-outs etc). OK, so some CDs these days have "unusual" packaging, but they are always a pain to file away. Whatever shape or format an LP record was, it hardly ever exceeded the 12"-square size and could therefore be slotted in with all the other LPs. There was some mention recently about various pressings of C&S, and the differing quality and style of the text (some had raised, some not, some black, some not). Again, that's something which CD booklets cannot offer. Artists have gotten around some of the limitations of the CD format by making the CD, inner tray card, back and front of the box more interesting (the way Joni put a different one of her cats on each part of the TTT packaging is a great example), I admit, but there's nothing quite like opening up the gatefolds to albums like The Joshua Tree, Around The World In A Day, Welcome To The Pleasuredome or even The Quuen Is Dead by The Smiths. They have a special quality about them. In the UK, a small selection of new releases still get a limited pressing on vinyl, but are usually confined to the dance/rock/alternative sector (Suede, Gomez, Chemical Brothers etc), and actually cost more than the CD version! OK, enough rambling for now :-) Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 15:20:01 EDT From: User573678@aol.com Subject: remove from list remove from list ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:43:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Best album covers ever (now NJC) We better be careful out there, jmdl ... we now have threads about "best" album covers and "action/penis size" going on simultaneously -- which can only lead to the inevitable "Return of Hejira's Penis" debate ... and I for one, would like to be able to "just say no" ... Forewarned is forarmed ... and in this case, foreskinned -- since circumcision seems to be another topic du jour! I can't believe I'm paying this close attention ... Don Rowe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:34:55 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: little green... (NJC) You said: >My father is also first an artist who experienced much disapproval >and >belittlement from his entreprenuerial, business-oriented >family. He had >to hide his projects from his family. This is something that I just do NOT get. Granted, many artists (and in this, I include visual artists, musicians, actors and so on) don't make much money, so that many of them either have to have "real" jobs to support themselves and maybe that's where it comes from. Maybe our parents didn't want us to starve. Or maybe it's that artistic lifestyle that didn't fit in with conventional mores! Both of my parents were raised during the depression. My father had very definite attitudes about what kind of education his children "should" get. He pushed the academics on us and encouraged us all to get a "profession" - in the case of my 3 sisters and me, he included in this nurse (but not doctor), teacher and so on. He figured that if we didn't get married, we would need a profession to fall back on. But he also assumed that we'd get married and that we wouldn't work after that (boy, was he wrong!) You also said: >When I came along and showed a heavy bent toward art he and my >mother did >everything they could to nurture that. That's really fortunate for you. I try to encourage my kids too because, in the first place, my daughter has a "learning disability" (this is a label I don't much care for, since what it really means is that her style of learning is different from that of the average child - she has difficulty reading, but she is of at least average intelligence, is wonderful at art and woodworking - which I think is kind of neat! I'd have cut a few fingers off by now trying that!), has just started learning violin at school (and is doing quite well there too) and, at 12, is probably one of the most astute people I've ever met at "figuring out" other people's motives. I want my kids to get as much education as possible in every subject they can because you want to leave all the doors open. Ironically, my mother had studied art as well and was really good at charcoal drawings and so on. For a while she was taking art classes when we were kids, but ended up giving it up which, to me, is a real shame. But she tended to go along with what my dad had to say about most things. I'm sure she had opinions about things (after she had had a drink or two, that's when we found out!), but most of the time, she kept these to herself, probably because she believed that families shouldn't argue amongst themselves. >It made me become almost militant about supporting the arts and >artists. In my opinion, majoring in art is one of the hardest >courses to >pursue in college. It is time-consuming, labor->intensive, expensive and >you can't simply read a few chapters in the >textbook at the last minute >before an exam to get by. I agree. I've decided that, in the remote event I ever DO become a millionaire, I am going to create many scholarships for artists of all kinds. This will be to assist those that have talent but don't have the bucks to pursue this career. I've even thought it might be useful to give a few who aren't the very best, but who don't have any money, the chance (because I figure the ones who are REALLY good are probably going to snaffle the other scholarships that are already out there, and don't need any more!) Whenever we get a "conservative" government in power that wants to cut government spending and taxes, the first things to go are arts. That's true in Canada at least, as I'm sure it's true in most countries. (On the other hand, someone at work told me the other day that someone recently rec'd a federal gov't arts grant to study the putrification of dead rabbits that she had hanged somewhere in the woods. It sounds disgusting and stupid enough to be true. In the meantime, the "real" artists (not those conceptual ones out to scam us all by covering big buildings with plastic wrap or whatever!!) can't even sell a painting for $100.) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:37:20 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Little Green Steve said: >I remember hearing/reading that those close to Joni knew - Graham, >David (Crosby and Geffin), etc. I guess some people still have enough >class to keep some things to themselves. > That is truly amazing that, out of all those people who may have known, there wasn't a schmuck among them! cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:39:46 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: little green... (and introduction) >I've never thought of Joni Mitchell as tabloid fodder....now, had >Kelly >been a 100 lb. infant... > LOL! Or a two-headed one. Or if Elvis had been spotted in the neighbourhood, or a vision of Jesus appeared on Joni's screen door... cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:47:45 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Joni in the tabloids >I can remember two Joni articles in National Enquirer, (back when I >had my >lifetime subscription). the situation w/ her maid and >all that. This "situation with her maid" was mentioned once before and now that it has come up again, what gives with that? I never heard about that - is there something on the jmdl homepage or the jonimitchell.com site about that? I've been through a lot of that stuff and maybe I just missed it. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:55:04 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: little green... << Then you said "maybe the way she coped with the horrible pain of the whole situation of making a real wrong choice of a husband and having to give up her baby, was to go inside to the one thing she had left - her creative reservoir - and throw herself totally into it. Out of that immersion came a wealth of incredible songs, one right after the other." >> Jeez, I wish I HAD said that, but 'twasn't I! cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 15:53:15 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: Best album covers ever (now NJC) Jason, telling his grandkids about the good ole days, said: <> Oh yes, not to mention the smell of the vinyl, the cardboard, the ink! I remember the *smell* as much as the physical and visual... Plus, there were sometimes little surprises, like when I bought "Frankenchrist" by the Dead Kennedys and there was the nice little H.R.Geiger poster called "Penis Landscape"! Gee, hope Mom doesn't see THIS one...:~) Bob NP: Newport Jazz Festival All Stars, "Moten Swing" (This CD also has a tune on it called "Exactly Like You" by a certain Dorothy Fields - isn't that your Mom, D. Lahm?) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:56:34 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: little green... njc Catgirl said: "Time sometimes does help you grow up if you let it." Thank God for that! cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #422 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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