From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #420 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, September 20 1999 Volume 04 : Number 420 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni Covers Beam me up ["Kelly Loughran" ] RE: Rickie Lee Jones (NJC) ["Wally Kairuz" ] Big Day coming up NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Old Age yet again (njc) ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: A Slut's Sampler From Hell (NJC) ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: little green / let the wind carry me ["Helen M. Adcock" ] re: little green [Robert Holliston ] Re: little green / let the wind carry me [MGVal@aol.com] NJC Re: Joni Covers [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] RE: Good vs. Evil (vljc) [Janene Otten ] RE: family games njc [Anne Sandstrom ] RE: little green... [Anne Sandstrom ] Re: Kilauren, and "a baby" [Siresorrow@aol.com] NJC Re: Joni Covers Beam me up [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Re: NJC/Boho//er...etc.... ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: little green... ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: "Action"/penis size NJC (All this talk about penises now) ["Catherine] Re: little green... (and introduction) ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Re[2]: Photos ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: little green... [LLDeMerle ] A Trip To Mars ... (NJC) [Don Rowe ] Re: Action/Penis Size (NJC) ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: little green... ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: NJC/Boho//er...etc.... [Jerry Notaro ] Southern Comfort ["Paul Castle" ] Re: NJC first 45s ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: little green / let the wind carry me ["P. Henry" ] Re: Good vs. Evil NJC - Tattoos ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: BOHO Dance ["Bill Dollinger" ] Re: Joni Covers [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: little green... (SJC) ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: little green... ["Catherine McKay" ] Best album covers ever [Bounced Message ] Joni Covers [evian ] Re: little green... (NJC) ["Kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:03:45 PDT From: "Kelly Loughran" Subject: Re: Joni Covers Beam me up Hah! You haven't lived till you've heard Leonard Nimoy sing Both Sides Now...truly excruciating not to mention hysterical!!!Unfortunately I don't have a recording to share with you all.....Kelly,from out of the shadows and reminiscing with a smile and a cringe(Been lurking for months,sorry I've yet to formally introduce myself.....later >From: Wolfebite@aol.com >Reply-To: Wolfebite@aol.com >To: joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: Joni Covers >Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 01:50:33 EDT > >pglass@tasyo.kssp.upd.edu.ph writes: > > ><< Adrienne Barbeau - I had a King >> > > >Adrienne Barbeau!! MAUD's daughter? the actress from that classic movie >"The Fog"? > >egads > >doug ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 04:13:39 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Rickie Lee Jones (NJC) doug, thanks for your report! i'm a big rickie lee jones fan and i enjoyed reading about your friend gene's adventure. i saw her perform only on video, and her rendition of coolsville was amazing. i'd give anything to see her sing something cool live. you're right: she's a scorpio, born november 8. hugs, wallyk - -----Original Message----- De: Wolfebite@aol.com Para: joni@smoe.org Fecha: Domingo 19 de Septiembre de 1999 23:42 Asunto: Rickie Lee Jones (NJC) >hello all > >went to both nights of RLJ at Old Town School of Folk music. one year anniv >concert- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 04:35:11 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: Big Day coming up NJC Listers, Big Birthday Coming Up!!!! More details on September 21... WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:27:10 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Old Age yet again (njc) Catman wrote: >Joanna Lumley is gorgeous, i agree. a real lady. Loads of class. Which is why I LOVE her in Absolutely Fabulous and also especially a couple of Ruby Wax shows (where she is absolutely hilarious). The fact that she can take the mickey out of herself makes her all the more classy! Helen NP - A Day In The Garden (my Jonifest raffle prize, and boy, am I happy about it!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:55:33 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: A Slut's Sampler From Hell (NJC) Don wrote: >Okay, here's a fun game to play for music sluts of all >ages. It's called "The Sampler From Hell" and here's >mine: > >1. I Before E -- Yaz >2. Operattack -- Grace Jones >3. Smokin' -- Joni Mitchell >4. It Was I -- Lindsey Buckingham >5. Miserable Lie -- The Smiths >6. The Return Of The Giant Hogweed -- Genesis >7. I'll Come Running -- Brian Eno >8. Rude Awakening #2 -- Creedence Clearwater Revival >9. Muskrat Love -- Captain and Tenille >10. Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds -- William Shatner > >If you can make it though this you're STRONG! I just had to respond to this! Here's my selection (alphabetically, sorry!) literally from hell (check my email address!): 1. Abba - I Do, I Do, I Do, I Do, I Do 2. Beaches Soundtrack - Wind Beneath My Wings (Bette Midler) 3. The BeeGees - Tragedy 4. Petula Clark - Romeo 5. Def Leppard - Love Bites 6. Dirty Dancing Soundtrack - She's Like The Wind (Patrick Swayze) 7. Girl Group Super Hits - Da Doo Ron Ron 8. Hanson - MMM Bop 9. Meatloaf - You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth 10. Pretty Woman Soundtrack - It Must Have Been Love (Roxette) 11. The Seekers - Georgy Girl 12. The Session Singers - A Tribute To Carole King - I Feel The Earth Move 13. Barbra Streisand - The Way We Were 13. Shania Twain - Man! I Feel Like A Woman! 14. Wilson Phillips - Ooh You're Gold Doesn't seem as bad now that I've typed it out! But I saved the best until last: 15. Starland Vocal Band - Baby, You Look Good To Me Tonight A sample of the lyrics: Well, I'm ordinarily very shy But I grinned at her while I ate my pie, and said Baby, you look good to me tonight I thought I must be in a dream When she asked me if I wanted cream Baby, you look good etc., etc., etc. Pretty bad, but I have to concede that nothing I've listed comes even close to matching Don's No. 10 choice - William Shatner singing "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds". I humbly hang my head in defeat before I even start (but it was fun trying)! Helen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:23:06 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: little green / let the wind carry me Penny wrote: Here's a question in light of the other sensitive posts that point out how hard it was for Joni to give up Kelly (Kilauren) after bonding with her for three months. What does it say about Joni's trust in and respect of her parents, especially Myrtle, that she'd hide the birth and give the baby up for adoption rather than go to her folks for some help and support? I've been reading all the posts on this subject with great interest, but I think this is the best point yet made, ie. that Joni felt she couldn't turn to her own parents for help? Deb also said "I doubt there's a woman on the planet with who has an unambivalent relationship with her mother." Which I have to agree with wholeheartedly! I can't comment on the pro's and con's of adoption since I haven't experienced it first-hand. But if the emotion and physical pain Joni manages to convey in song is any indication of her own emotions (probably a small subset of those emotions), then I doubt any decision she made would have been easily lived with - no matter what the final result. Helen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 05:54:48 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: Joni Covers Joseph Palis wrote: >Adrienne Barbeau - I had a King Oh my god, this I gotta hear. The first thing that comes to my mind is William Shatner singing "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds." Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ ~there are only three kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 03:34:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Holliston Subject: re: little green Somewhere on Les' site is an article entitled ADOPTION: BOTH SIDES NOW, by Reola Daniel, from the (ultra-conservative) Western Report. Anyway, they contacted Mrs. Anderson, and here are some quotes: Mrs. Anderson has been described as "a nice lady, but very Calvinistic." She has said, though: "I think she [Joni] thought we would be quite disappointed. We had talked about this type of problem beforehand. We were very strict about [Joan's] upbringing....In retrospect, we're sorry she had to have a baby without our support. If we had known, things would have been different." Mrs. Anderson is, according to this article, proud of her daughter for not aborting the child: "I don't approve of abortion, and I don't think Joan felt she could deal with that either." Mrs. Anderson is still unhappy with Kilauren's father: "He was irresponsible about the whole thing; he went to California to complete his studies...." You can find the whole article on Les' site. "Little Green" is called that because Kelly is a shade of green. Call her Green and the winters cannot fade her/Call her Green for the children who have made her/Little Green.....be a Gypsy dancer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 07:30:27 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: little green / let the wind carry me In a message dated 9/20/99 2:22:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, hell@ihug.co.nz writes: << 've been reading all the posts on this subject with great interest, but I think this is the best point yet made, ie. that Joni felt she couldn't turn to her own parents for help? >> Reading this, I was thinking about an emotional moment that I had with my 18 y.o. daughter, Signe. She's a smart girl, but extraordinarily lazy when it comes to school work. During her high school career, she could have pulled A's, scraped by with C's. In a way, that was good because it helped to teach me how to let go of her and allow her to fall on her own face, (within reason), but that's another thread. Months later we were talking about this and Sig told me that one reason why she always went to great pains to hide her report card was that she couldn't bear the look of disappointment on my face. She could deal with anything but that. Now granted, this is way, way below being pregnant on the kid crisis-meter, but I think that it illustrates how kids want to please their parents. If you couple that very intense drive with a society that, (when K was born), did not accept unwed,single mothers with open arms, you have a recipe for Joni's situation. Keep in mind, she also lived in Toronto, clear on the other end of Canada. Maybe things would have been different had this happened closer to her hometown. (then again, maybe not - I bet that small town stigma was even worse). As Kakki said, I think that the Kilauren issue has been too important to indulge in the typical mother/daughter headgames. It's certainly been a situation that has supplied its share of pain and grief; both at the immediate time and as the years went by. As I type this out, this thought just in: I think that Joni has really handled this very graciously in many ways. How many people, once they hit fame and fortune, would have tried to go back to court to retrieve the baby? Done their best to take the child from his/her home because, "it's my baby!" Joni made a tough choice and lived with it. Period. MG np: Joan Baez: "Love Song to a Stranger" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 08:06:01 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: NJC Re: Joni Covers <<>Adrienne Barbeau - I had a King Oh my god, this I gotta hear.>> Me too, although I think this might be an abbreviated version of her previous hit, "I Had A King-size Bra" :~) Bob, with mind already firmly placed in the gutter... NP: Peter Case, "Ice Water" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:19:18 -0400 From: Janene Otten Subject: RE: Good vs. Evil (vljc) Hi, Actually, I was referring to the Tribute album with Bjork, Chaka Khan, Elvis Costello etc...I wanted to record a song to be included on that album. I was dreaming! =) Janene < Subject: RE: family games njc Interesting, Bob & Wally K... You must be remembering my set at JoniFest, where I talked about going to a friend's house to play Scrabble and always insisting that we listen to STAS. God, that was about 30 lifetimes ago!!! Anne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:15:07 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: RE: little green... I'm still catching up on the weekend mail - so pardon me for interrupting mid-thread (and late to boot...) Perhaps it's just me, given experience I've had with people guessing (incorrectly) about what some of my songs are about - and then, in the larger scheme of things, people assuming I must feel certain things in certain proportions about not being able to have children, but I don't think I could possibly guess what Joni's feeling are/were about giving up Kilauren for adoption. And I don't have to. Instead, Joni's experience has resulted in songs I can wrap around myself to deal with my own experience. I'd rather allow Joni the privacy of her own emotions and accept her music as a gift. Anne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:38:20 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Kilauren, and "a baby" In a message dated 9/19/99 10:55:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TerryM2442@aol.com writes: << I mentioned recently, we had the opportunity to set up a reunion for our adopted 14 year old daughter with her bio family. It was a roller coaster ride for me (and I still wonder where Kilauren's adoptive parents are with this whole thing), but I was curious as to how the reunion affected my daughter's bio mom. She said to me that now she feels complete for the first time since she relinquished her baby. Seeing her, touching her, and having her back in her life has been the most comforting thing that has happened to her. Studying her face, I could see it. >> what a generous and selfless thing you did to accept the risk of your emotions and facilitate this meeting. i know you didn't post it for this reason, but i'd like to tell you that you did a big thing and you should be very proud of this. this is a life time accomplishment that surely took all your experience and judgement to see through. ss ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:54:09 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: NJC Re: Joni Covers Beam me up <> Kelly, an informal welcome to the list is in order - formal welcome to follow your formal intro...:~) Remember, we don't send you the official Joni Decoder Ring until after your FORMAL introduction! Bob NP: David+David, "Ain't So Easy" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 16:11:39 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: NJC/Boho//er...etc.... You asked: "What is an aspiring bohemian? I am Bohemian, 25%, from my mother's mother, Josephine (Josefa) nee Kallal. Other than being born of Bohemian descent, how does one who aspires to be a bohemian (and we are cool) get to be one?" What I'd like to know, how did the word Bohemian (which refers to a nationality or ethnic group) get to mean someone who's a beatnik (since that's the closest word I can come up with to mean what we refer to as "bohemian"?) I wonder whether it was once pejorative but then became "cool"? cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 16:19:52 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: little green... You asked whether Joni had had her child for "almost a year >befor giving her up for adoption?" I'm not sure how long she had her, but it was at least a few months - the baby was definitely not a newborn. Then you said: "No wonder she wrote such a cruel song about Chuck Mitchell...all those promises and then nothing! I had a king surely hits the head right on the nail!" Not that I know anything about Chuck Mitchell, but maybe it seemed like a good idea at the time. Chuck wasn't even the father (does anyone know whether the father, whose name I don't remember) was even aware that Joni was pregnant with his child until this whole Kilauren reunion came about? What exactly did Chuck promise, and was it not more Joni's decision for them to split up? I do recall her saying in interviews that she married him but was thinking all the while that she could "get out of this". Youthful folly, maybe? cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 16:22:05 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: "Action"/penis size NJC (All this talk about penises now) Quoting someone quoting someone quoting something (since I don't remember where this started): "I read somewhere that the penis is "in" this year, launched by Ben Stiller in "Something About Mary." God help the victims of fashion if it ever goes "out". cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 16:36:12 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: little green... (and introduction) Welcome to the list, and thanks for your post and comments, where you say: >Joni talked about the paradox of being dirt poor and marrying Chuck >Mitchell as a last ditch effort to keep "Kelly Dale Anderson, as she was >named, while one year later having a record contract. She said, "How was I >to know and to survive until that time?" That's why I believe she would have kept her child. It's a very courageous and heart-breaking decision that she made, so it's good to know it ultimately turned out well. I also think that if she had been through that once, she may not ever have wanted to worry about it again - hence, no more children - what a shame! wouldn't it be nice to see Joni and family performing together? On the other hand, when you've got kids, it's hard to get time to yourself to keep the music and poetry flowing (and that's why God created nannies!) Then, you went on to say: >A friend of hers recalls when Joni met a couple with a four year old >daughter. When they'd left, she said, "That could have been my daughter," >so Kelly was forefront in her mind, even then. That's interesting, because I thought the whole thing was such a closely guarded secret that no one knew until Joni started searching for her daughter - and then found her -, about the baby at all. Yet obviously people must have known. I wonder why none of this stuff ever got into National Enquirer or other tabloids of that kind? There's always someone willing to blab on someone else (not to mention the fact that much of their stuff is total fiction anyway!) Considering all the people Joni knew, it's interesting that no one picked up on it. Even before the news came out, hearing songs like "Little Green" I thought Joni may have beent talking about herself as a child, or the daughter of a friend. And in "Song for Sharon", where she says "Your kids are growing up straight/but my child's a stranger./ I bore her, but I could not raise her," I thought she was speaking figuratively, where "My child" refers to the childish elements within herself (as in transactional analysis for example.) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:44:13 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: little green / let the wind carry me MG wrote: >As I type this out, this thought just in: I think that Joni has really >handled this very graciously in many ways. How many people, once they hit >fame and fortune, would have tried to go back to court to retrieve the baby? >Done their best to take the child from his/her home because, "it's my baby!" >Joni made a tough choice and lived with it. Period. Well said! I was thinking this myself last night. I believe it shows the level of commitment in what was best for her child, truly heroic and self-sacrificing. L LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 16:39:56 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Re[2]: Photos Holy jeez - I learn something new every day! You said: >If there is a copy center (like Kinko's) near you, they usually have >professional quality scanners (better than most home scanners, these >produce very high quality scans) which you can use to make personal >copies for little cost... especially if you bring your own diskettes. > In ALL SERIOUSNESS (this isn't a joke), here's one neo-Luddite who had NO idea that you could do this. You mean you can take your regular prints (not even negatives?) to Kinko's (or wherever) and have them scanned into a disk and you've got something you can e-mail to other people? Here I thought you needed a special camera and everything. I swear, I am absolutely blowed away. Thanks for the info! cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:48:06 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: little green... At 04:19 PM 9/20/99 +0000, Catherine McKay wrote: >Not that I know anything about Chuck Mitchell, but maybe it seemed like a >good idea at the time. Chuck wasn't even the father (does anyone know >whether the father, whose name I don't remember) was even aware that Joni >was pregnant with his child until this whole Kilauren reunion came about? >What exactly did Chuck promise, and was it not more Joni's decision for >them to split up? I do recall her saying in interviews that she married >him but was thinking all the while that she could "get out of >this". Youthful folly, maybe? I think his name is Brad, knew about the pregnancy, because reportedly he moved to Toronto with Joni. He said, "We weren't communicating," and that was why her left her for California, where apparently he continued his studies. He said he came back to discuss marriage, "But by that time,she was married to some other guy so I just totally divorced myself from the situation." I, too, wonder what Chuck promised. ?? L LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:54:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: A Trip To Mars ... (NJC) The latest super-music outlet, Mars, had it's grand opening this weekend here in St. Louis. Man, I felt like Obi Wan Kenobi about to take Luke into Mose Isley Spaceport ... "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy ... we must be cautious." Well it is really quite the candy store, and actually somewhat user friendly. If there's one in your neck of the woods, you should check it out! And yes, guitar wizards of the jmdl ... the VG8 is up and runninng. I escaped relatively un-plundered -- but that Christmas list has more than a few juicy new items on it! Don Rowe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 16:56:57 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Action/Penis Size (NJC) >One thing though, what's all this attention to penis size? >P.S. Yup, seems as if I have probably crossed the good taste barrier, >but don't flame me, I've had one of those weeks and just need to be >silly! Yup, you probably did cross the good-taste barrier, but what they hey? Silliness if good. I swear to God, there's a plastic surgeon in Toronto who does penis enlargement (among other things) - his name is either Dr. Stubbs or Dr Long, I forget which, but definitely one of those two. (Who would you trust with your peepee?) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:14:11 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: little green... Kakki, you said, "I recall getting particularly upset about some of the letters to various publications which blithely attacked her and questioned her motives, i.e., she selfishly wanted to pursue the music career and fame and didn't want to be saddled with the child." It's fact that she was in a completely untenable situation." That kind of thinking always irritates the bejesus out of me too. Where is the logic, the compassion, the tolerance in that kind of thinking? It's so unkind and so hypocritical. That kind of person is totally incapable of putting him/herself into the other person's shoes because they've never experienced anything - not hardship, not pain, but none of the joy either. And ironically, they're always the ones to cast the first stone. Then you said "maybe the way she coped with the horrible pain of the whole situation of making a real wrong choice of a husband and having to give up her baby, was to go inside to the one thing she had left - her creative reservoir - and throw herself totally into it. Out of that immersion came a wealth of incredible songs, one right after the other." I definitely agree with that. Most great poetry and great songs come from sadness, not happiness. When people are happy, they're too busy being happy to sit down and write a poem or a song about it. It's the introspective-ness of sorrow or disillusionment that makes the person sit down and think about it, and writing it down is definitely one way of getting it out, because sometimes it's just too difficult to talk about. I don't know if it's just my age or what, but I've gone through a tremendous time the last few years thinking, almost to the point of obesssion, about "bad" things I've said or done to other people, and regretting them and wishing I could apologize to people I knew years ago, and with whom I've totally lost touch, over something I've said or done, or failed to say, or failed to do. At the same time, I've also thought about things that other people have said or done to me that were cruel and, whereas 10 years ago or so I might have wanted nothing better than to spit in their face or get some kind of revenge on them, now I think I could (in most cases anyway!) forgive them, understand them, and move on. The funny part about that is, often the things I've thought of as being so terrible, that have weighed on my mind sometimes for years, are things the wronged party doesn't even remember. I even thought about running an ad in major newspapers saying: "to anyone I ever wronged - i'm sorry!" but that's a bit precious, ain't it? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:11:55 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: NJC/Boho//er...etc.... Though now a generic term for "artistic and free living" it specifically referes to a particular art school or movement, as follow: Bohemian school school of the visual arts that flourished in and around Prague under the patronage of Charles IV, king of Bohemia from 1346 and Holy Roman emperor from 1355 to 1378. Prague, as Charles's principal residence, attracted many foreign artists and local masters. Although it was heavily exposed to the artistic traditions of France and northern Italy (mainly through the importation of illuminated manuscripts), Prague nevertheless produced a vital Bohemian tradition in architecture and a distinctive, independent style in painting that had an important influence on 14th-century, late-Gothic art, especially that of Germa Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:26:25 +0100 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: Southern Comfort Today I had a little exchange of e-mails with Iain Matthews. Whilst I am trying to persuade him to come on the JMDL himself, he said he would be happy for me to post this:- >Paul, >Hi. >Actually, yes, I am planning another UK tour next May. >I have a new album to be released in early March. >It will be on my own label "Perfect Pitch ," through a >label called "Unique Gravity".who also release Robin >Williamson's music. The album is called "A Tiniest Wham." >I have not seen Hugh [Blumenfeld's folkmusic.about.com] >site, but I now plan to check it out. I haven't heard his music >yet either, but have seen rave reviews of his writing and must >find out what all the fuss is about. I asked about: >>.......In particular, the concert you did with Joni [Mitchell] >>at The Royal Festival Hall - the Festival of Contemporary >>Song in 1968, with Jackson C Frank, Al Stewart and The >>Johnstons also on the bill. Do you have any memories of >>this event? Iain wrote: >Fairport, yes. To tell you the truth, I don't remember very much about that >show at all. We did so many great venues and billings in those days, it's >hard to recall some of them. I do however remember playing the London >Palladium with James Taylor, when Joni and he were still an item, and >"Woodstock" was a still a big hit. There is a well published photo of us >(Matthews Southern Comfort) In fact it appeared in the Joni book recently >bearing the caption "Joni and her band" indeed! >I do have a web page, with a very long address, run for me by a fan in the >Netherlands. The address is: http://www.bio.vu.nl/home/vwielink/matthews >That should give you all the current info you'll need on my meanderings. >Stay in touch. > >Iain PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 18:33:36 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: NJC first 45s >"One-Ton Tomato" based on that song "Guantanamara", about a guy who >ate a >one ton tomato and all his adventures... LOL - I loved that! >my Dad finally got sick of it and told us to shut up! :~) Many's the time my Dad threatened dire consequences to the squabbling and the silly songs that came from the back seat. My sister and I made up our own lyrics to "Get me to the church on time" (from "My Fair Lady") that started out "There's just a few more hours... before the time is up" and so on. In our case, it would be "just a few more hours, before we get to Montreal" or whatever our destination might have been. Dad would humour us for a while, but then... In fact, my Dad was a pretty tolerant guy. He could put up with a lot, but I remember once, coming back from two weeks' vacation in Maine, where he had decided we would do the whole trip in one day (we usually took two because it's a long drive from Toronto), and Dad would NOT share the driving with my mother, and the rest of us were too young to drive in any case, where, after listening to us arguing and carrying on, and add to that that the temperature was about 100F and humid, and we had no air-conditioning ... about an hour from Toronto, Dad just pulled over to the side, and gave us hell. Since he wasn't normally the type to yell, and he never swore in his life that I'm aware of, it really had an impact on us. I don't think one of us made a peep the rest of the way back. There were 5 of us kids and I can't remember how we all fit into the car - cars were bigger back then, weren't they? I think my brother, the oldest, and only boy, may have sat in the front. Those were the days when there were no seatbelts. We'd sit on the floor when we were going over bumpy roads or hilly roads and every time we went up, we'd yell "Whoooooooooooaaa!" For a variety of reasons, I'm amazed we all made it to adulthood. Nowaways, I've only got two kids and they're at the age where they are CONSTANTLY fighting about something and jabbing and poking at one another, and then whining to me to report what the other one has just done. Some days, I yell constantly at them to "Shut up!" or threaten to make them walk wherever they're going. Other days, I can totally tune them out and wouldn't notice even if they did kill each other. You made a point too, about kids and computers and so on. We don't have a computer at home, not that I don't want one - just can't afford it. But I'm sort of glad about that. When my son goes over to his friends' who have Nintendo and so on, they're glued to that screen for hours. You have to stand between the kid and the screen to even get his attention. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 11:36:06 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: little green / let the wind carry me Papa's faith is people Mama she believes in cleaning Papa's faith is in people Mama she's always cleaning Papa brought home the sugar Mama taught me the deeper meaning She don't like my kick pleat skirt She don't like my eyelids painted green She don't like me staying up late In my high-heeled shoes Living for that Rock'n'Roll dancing scene Papa says "Leave the girl alone, Mother She's looking like a Movie Queen" Mama thinks she spoilt me Papa knows somehow he set me free Mama thinks she spoilt me rotten She blames herself But papa he blesses me It's a rough road to travel Mama let go now It's always called for me Sometimes I get that feeling And I want to settle And raise a child up with somebody I get that strong longing And I want to settle And raise a child up with somebody But it passes like the summer I'm a wild seed again Let the wind carry me Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:13:14 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: little green... On the question: "Do y'all think she has forgiven herself?" and one response: "With a soul as deep and wide as Joni's and the propensity for a seeming need for confession in her work (not to *mention* the "Calvinistic" impressions of her mother and Joni's reasons for concealing her pregnancy from her folks,) you really think Joni never felt guilt?" and then your: "I sincerely doubt it," I'm sure she felt guilt, and regret, often and almost always. I was once in a situation where something "terrible" had happened, and there was no way I would ever tell my parents. I can thoroughly understand that. To this very day, I'm sure I would have trouble telling my Dad (my mother died a few years ago) about anything that I think might upset him. And I'm 46. Joni still talks about dealing with her parents and guilt. About 22 years ago, my brother's then-girlfriend got pregnant and they apparently considered abortion, but rejected the idea. Only after the baby (my nephew Patrick, now a fine strapping lad of 22 or so) was born did they call my parents to let them know - before that, they didn't even know she was pregnant, so you can imagine having a bomb like that dropped on you - and yet my brother and Terri were so afraid to tell them beforehand. In fact, several months earlier, Michael and Terri went on a trip to the Caribbean and stayed at my place overnight to catch their plane the following day. At that time, Terri was pregnant, but she obviously wasn't that far along, and I had never met her before that, because I certainly didn't notice. And they didn't tell me. Once they had told my parents, one of the first people my mum called to tell the news was me. She thought I knew about it all along and was in on it, and my mother always had a terrible time expressing "difficult" news, (for example, when she found out she had cancer, and was going into the hospital for a mastectomy, she phoned and said: "Uh, well, somebody's going into the hospital". I asked her "Who?" and she said: "Me!" and burst into tears, so this is what you're dealing with.) She made the announcement of Patrick's birth to me over the phone this way: "Well, Terri's had her baby." I had to ask, Terri Who? because I didn't have a clue what she was talking about. There were a lot of upset people that day - on the one hand, a child out of wedlock (!) On the other hand, being good Catholics, my parents were relieved that they hadn't had an abortion. (Kind of a good news/bad news thing, big time!) Over time, my parents calmed down, and trusted everyone again and realized that one could "live in sin" and still be a good person. Now, even though Michael and Terri never did get that piece of paper from the City Hall (or maybe they did but just never bothered to tell anyone!), they're still together, have 5 kids, and are probably one of the happiest, best-adjusted families I've ever met. My point, which I will finally get to you, is that, to those of you blessed with open, communicative relationships - get down on your knees and thank whatever gods may be for your good fortune, because a lot of us screwed-up individuals have a helluva time talking about anything - especially to the people who are closest to us. Don't that beat all? cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:25:51 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil NJC - Tattoos "Ashara {the Jewish Mama with not 1, but 2 tatoos!}" I am NOT going to ask where! (How 'bout pierced ears, not to mention other body parts?) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:42:02 -0400 From: "Bill Dollinger" Subject: Re: BOHO Dance The phrase "boho dance" is from Tom Wolfes novel The Painted Word. bill >I'm pretty sure you're right - I believe it does mean "bohemian." If I'm not >mistaken Joni said something about this being based on the writings of Tom >Wolfe (Bonfire of the Vanities and other things.) > > >cateri@hotmail.com > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:43:50 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Joni Covers On Sunday my breakfast was interrupted by a singer called Michael Ball on the radio raving about how much he loves Joni Mitchell. Apparently his normal forte is Lloyd Webber tunes. He went on to play his version of River from his upcoming Christmas album and I must say it was truely not bad. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:00:54 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: little green... (SJC) "When she went to art school, her mother declared that she could never stick with and finish anything." My parents said similar things to us kids. My brother dropped out of engineering school in his last WEEK because he was so terrified that his thesis wouldn't be any good. This was a kid who was so smart that he was accelerated in school and so was about 2 years younger than his classmates at university. Fortunately one of his profs called him and told him to get his ass back and to finish his year (and he did.) Two of my sisters wanted to go to art school, and my Dad tried to talk them out of it because he didn't think it was a good "profession" to be in. Both of them did go for a year or so, but did end up dropping out in despair. Later, one of them went into nursing school, then dropped out after a year. In high school, I wanted to study art and music, but my parents didn't want me to and back then, you mostly did what your parents said. I was never able to stick to anything until I made a decision that some things were indeed worth sticking to, and have found that, where there's a will, there's a way, and I truly believe that if a person wants something badly enough, he or she will find a way to make it happen (whether or not this is a good thing or not is a whole different story!) My husband, who IS an artist, went through the same stuff with his parents - in this case, again, it was his Dad. His Dad had gone through WWII, had been in a concentration camp, and lost a lot - friends, family, property, and so on - and wanted his son to become an electronics-whatever, or some kind of professional or technical type, and not to go into art. Even though my husband is an artist today, he is, get this, trying to tell my daugher to stay away from art. Figure that one out! And I have great difficulty trying NOT to say the negative kinds of things my parents might have said to us, to my own kids, and I admit, i often do not succeed. You said: "Could be that her parents, or mother at least were highly critical, to the point of making it seem impossible to go to her/them when vulnerable and in need of support, expecting verbal pummeling and shaming. " For sure. I've talked about this kind of thing to lots of people I know who have experienced the same thing. And yet, this is not cases of child abuse. We were not physically abused, we had food to eat, we went to good schools, we didn't go without anything, so I'm not even going to get into the topic of those who ARE abused. But our parents had certain expectations, and much of these were conveyed non-verbally. There was no way, as a child or event as an adult, that I would ever tell my parents anything that I thought they wouldn't want to hear. Part of this is fear that I had somehow disappointed them, and part of it is pride/vanity. I would work it out in my own way, and then just not tell them anything, so that way I wouldn't have to lie to them, because I am a very poor liar and to me, lying is the ultimate dishonesty. To this very day, I have great difficulty asking anyone for help, or depending on anyone for anything. I worked it out early on that if I relied on myself, I would never be disappointed and if I were, that I would have only myself to blame. I realize this is probably kind of sick because some day, I probably will need someone, so I might as well get used to it now. I also believe in a form of karma, or whatever, so that it would somehow be appropriate for me to have to rely on someone some day, so I could learn that lesson. That's OK though. I appreciate the humour in that. As kids, when one of us came home with an A-minus in a subject, Dad would ask, "How come you didn't get A-plus." He was actually kidding, but we didn't get it. I think in many ways, people in my family were hypersensitive about a lot of things and much of the guilt we felt was probably not due to anything my parents said or did, but may have been part of our natures. I still find it easy to forgive others their weaknesses, but somehow expect myself to be better than that - which is, in itself, a form of pride, and not the good kind either. I could go on more about this, but I think I'd rather just shut up now. Anyway, the shrink gets PAID to listen to this! ;] cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:03:42 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: little green... >so, why did joni have to give up her child at birth? because of her sins, >or the sins of her parents? neither.....so god's work could be revealed >through her. then god returned her child to her. > Amen to that - that was well-said. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:06:24 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Best album covers ever From: philipf@tinet.ie Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:48:41 +0100 The Weekend section in The Guardian had an interesting article about record sleeve design in which they selected the top 100 covers ever. Our favourite designer made the top 100 for HOSL. I'd probably agree with that although I really like Seagull and Ladies of the Canyon as well. Other worthy chart entries were Sticky Fingers, Sgt. Pepper, Cheap Thrills DSOTM (I assume that's what they call it on the Pink Floyd list), Odelay - Beck , Horses - Patti Smith, Houses of The Holy - L. Zep. Strangely there was no place on the chart for Disreali Gears, Please Please Me, Forever Changes or my choice for chart topper - The Freewheelin Bob Dylan which I recall contained a beautiful girl and a '62 VW bus. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:24:35 -0600 From: evian Subject: Joni Covers > Adrienne Barbeau - I had a King > Good Lord, Maude's daughter sings!!!! Priceless!!!!!!! Just a thought..... the Maude theme song could very well be a tribute to Joni: "That incompromisin', enterprisin', anything but traquilizing..... RIGHT ON MAUDE (Joan). Yup, I love love love my '70's tv. Evian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 13:18:56 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: little green... (NJC) Catherine - your family sounds like mine in many ways. You wrote: > "When she went to art school, her mother declared that she could never stick > with and finish anything." > > My parents said similar things to us kids. > Two of my sisters wanted to go to art school, and my Dad tried to talk them > out of it because he didn't think it was a good "profession" to be in. Both > of them did go for a year or so, but did end up dropping out in despair. My father is also first an artist who experienced much disapproval and belittlement from his entreprenuerial, business-oriented family. He had to hide his projects from his family. He did not pursue it as a career but kept up his painting and exhibited for a number of years. When I came along and showed a heavy bent toward art he and my mother did everything they could to nurture that. When I decided to major in art in college, they were, in fact, the *only* people I knew who did not put it down. My friends, their parents, and friends of my parents all snickered and dissed my choice, reducing it basically to going off to learn "basket weaving" and that must mean that I was too intellectually lacking to learn anything else. Unreal. It made me become almost militant about supporting the arts and artists. In my opinion, majoring in art is one of the hardest courses to pursue in college. It is time-consuming, labor-intensive, expensive and you can't simply read a few chapters in the textbook at the last minute before an exam to get by. Even though I do not now make my living in the arts, my choice of study has been extremely valuable to me in everything I've done and I'm glad I took the path that I did. It taught me to be creative and resourceful, to look at new angles of any situation, honed my abstract thinking ability, and helped me to become a quick problem-solver. And isn't that ultimately what we ideally hope to gain from education, regardless of the specific course taken? This topic always gets me soapboxing. Any of you out there who have children showing signs of creative talent, do all you can to nurture it. Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #420 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?