From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #418 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Sunday, September 19 1999 Volume 04 : Number 418 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: little green... [catman ] All the way from New England ["Paul Castle" ] Re: family games njc [catman ] Re: little green... [catman ] Re: family games njc [Ashara@aol.com] Re: little green... [LLDeMerle ] Re: NJC gifts of God [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: little green / let the wind carry me [zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny)] Re: family games njc [RMuRocks@aol.com] RE: little green ["Pitassi, Mary" ] RE: family games njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Joni quoted in Nickelodeon Cartoon!!!!! [mann@chicagonet.net] Re: little green / let the wind carry me ["Kakki" ] A Classy Deal -- Wine for 99 cents and free shipping! (NJC but she would approve) [mann@chic] re: Joni pic ["Ray & Cathy" ] Re: Good vs. Evil (vljc) [Dflahm@aol.com] Joni Standards Album ["Kakki" ] Eurythmics (NJC) [Evan + Vanessa Thomson ] Re: little green [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: family games njc [catman ] Re: Joni Standards Album [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: little green / let the wind carry me [RMuRocks@aol.com] Larry Klein in People Magazine (NJC) [Bounced Message ] Re: family games njc [waytoblu@mindspring.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 21:26:50 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: little green... > > > Well, sure she felt a certain amount of guilt over the whole episode, but I > just don't think she felt like she had to *forgive* herself...she's a > brilliant and headstrong woman and always been, so she never would have done > it if she considered it unforgiveable. I have read this over and over and it doesn't make sense to me. I agree, I suppose, that she would not have done something she felt was unforgiveable but I can't see it follows that she would not need to forgive herself. Joni, like the rest of us is human, and we all need to forgive ourselves. if we don't then life will be hard for we would be living with someone 24/7 that we resent. > > > So LL, you just put those eyebrows back down! :~) > > Bob > > NP: "Carey" from the Troubadour show, '72 - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 21:31:47 +0100 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: All the way from New England Hello to all you peeps at this year's Jonifest. I've got a big big thank you owing. Today has been a Joni day extraordinaire! Just like a London Bus, you can wait for months and then three come at once. Walk down to the post office in the wind and the sun to pay the 6 pounds plus import duty on the Blue Gold Disc, which I had ordered many moons ago. Get home to find this Saturday morning's postman delivering a box from the top field. Very light, I think. A slip of paper falls out and falls to the ground. I pick it up. CONGRTATULATIONS!!!!!! You won this prize as part of the New England Labor Day Jonifest '99!!!! Enjoy!! HugsUKnowhoa. Whoever donated the vinyl cover-sized 'Taming the Tiger' print - and, indeed, whoever put my name in the raffle in the first place - I'm amazed! Whoever donated this wonderful picture - I want you to know it is in a good home where it will be appreciated - trouble is, I wouldn't want to frame it because I don't know which side I like best; the colour cover or the black & white photograph on the back, with Joni painting the original oil. I spent the afternoon in gold Blue on headphones and all I can say is that it is all you said it would be and more. Every song on here sounds like that brilliant elusive first take! We have an expression around here "You could bore for England" I've noticed people have started saying that I could "Joni for England", so I'll stop all of this now and just say another very big "ta!" PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 21:31:51 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: family games njc > i was fortunate enough to have friends whose families played > together for hours on end on sunday afternoons. seeing them have fun over a > monopoly board or whatever games people played in the 60's was my first > realization that things were different in other homes and that i could rise > above the "games" that my parents enjoyed so much. I wonder if those people realise what a great contribution they made to our lives. Thank God for neighbours and friends who lived differently. Without them, life may have been very bleak and we might have been left ignorant of a different world and therfore be locked into darkness. what a pity, I think, that these people don't know what they did. However, i am sure it won't have gone unnoticed in the Grand Scheme. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 21:37:52 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: little green... > > > 2. REMORSE regret, shame, shame is different to guilt-vastly so. Guilt being the feeling we have when we know we have done something wrong, or omitted to do something etc.Shame is the feeling that we are not good enough, that we are bad, rotten, sinful, defective, unworthy of love. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:42:44 EDT From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: Re: family games njc I was so glad to see these posts about family games! I am a BIIIIIIIIG board game player from way back, and my 4 boys and I still play board games whenever we can, especially after a day of skiing. When they were younger, they didn't really even know much about what television was, because we would be either playing board games, or reading together. Of course, now that they are teens, they have found MTV, and other "interesting" forms of entertainment, but we still play a lot of games together. What I have found is a lot of times kids open up and talk to you during a board game session that they might not do just on a "sit down on the couch one-on-one basis." "Monopoly" anyone? Hugs, Ashara {who is SO thankful they have long outgrown "Candyland!" God, how I hated that game, but played it everyday for years!!!} ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:51:11 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: little green... At 09:37 PM 9/18/99 +0100, catman wrote: > > > > > > 2. REMORSE regret, shame, > >shame is different to guilt-vastly so. Guilt being the feeling we have when we >know we have done something wrong, or omitted to do something etc.Shame is the >feeling that we are not good enough, that we are bad, rotten, sinful, >defective, >unworthy of love. Well, that's Roget's opinion. I think of shame as embarrassment, but others will have their own experiences and opinions connected with the word. Do we wonder at the difficulty in communicating??!! L -leaving now, really -L LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:52:11 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC gifts of God In a message dated 9/18/99 1:54:07 PM US Central Standard Time, revrvl@pathwaynet.com writes: << Don't you hate it when as I am planning my Sunday worship service I see this JMDL stuff that has theological overtones? It gets me a-preachin'. Sorry. >> Hate it? No way, Rev...your professional wisdom is always welcome! Bob, who used to read the Song of Solomon in church when the sermon got boring...:~) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:58:41 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Re: little green / let the wind carry me Hi back at ya Kakki! and you wrote: What I envision Joni considering at the time was the specter of returning home a single mother, with a surprise child that was not her ex-husband's and having to deal with her mother's ferocious wrath. I think she felt this was the absolute worse option - coming home to the anger,and also feeling responsible for upsetting her parents' lives and causing them social embarrassment I think she probably thought she would never hear the end of it from her mother and, while I'm sure she personally wanted to avoid that scenario, more than that, I think she did not want to subject Kilauren to that kind of negative environment. She may have felt that her mother would have never let her live it down. And then how good of a mother could Joni have been at the time having to deal with the disapproval and recriminations? She wanted something much better and cleaner for her child. Kakki I agree completely with your accessment. Which is why I think Joni and Myrtle's relationship became even more strained when Joni went public about Kilauren. On one hand Joni had a huge burden eased and lifted by coming clean about Kilauren and then reuniting with her (the lighter feel of TTT) but now after she's settling in with that joy and relief, comes dealing with all the issues raised with Myrtle. I'm not saying I think Joni made a wrong decision in giving up her daughter. I'm saying the hurt between Joni and her mom is possibly Joni's most significant lingering emotional conflict because Myrtle must have been/is tremendously hurt by finding out Joni chose NOT to go to them, for whatever the reasoning. If Joni's art thrives on "unresolve", I think this may be where it will stem from currently. Penny ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:01:01 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: family games njc In a message dated 9/18/99 2:44:58 PM US Central Standard Time, Ashara@aol.com writes: << What I have found is a lot of times kids open up and talk to you during a board game session that they might not do just on a "sit down on the couch one-on-one basis." >> This is very true! This whole ad campaign about sitting down with your kids to talk specifically about drugs or sex is silly...You talk to kids while you're doing something else, playing cards, washing dishes, driving in the car, eating together, etc. It's the opposite of "quality time" - it's "quantity time"...spend enough time together and you get the opportunity to talk AND LISTEN to everything (at least as much as a kid will tell a parent ;~) ). Off for a jog... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:06:14 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: RE: little green Terry wrote, supporting the possibility that Joni still might have relinquished Kilauren even if she had become pregnant several years later, when she had more financial security: "But Joni herself says: "Sometimes I get that feeling And I want to settle And raise a child up with somebody I get that strong longing And I want to settle And raise a child up with somebody But it passes like the summer I'm a wild seed again Let the wind carry me" Me now: But I've always taken "Let the Wind Carry Me" to be very much a product of Joni's life *at the time it was written*: i.e, having *already* given one child up for adoption, having *already,* perhaps, funneled the ensuing pain and grief into her songs, as Kakki suggested, and having *already* achieved some modicum of fame and fortune through her career. *At that point,* she felt ambivalent about having another child. I've never interpreted this song, though, about having any bearing on what decision she might have made about raising *Kilauren* if circumstances had been different. . . . But that's me! Mary P. P.S. I've read several accounts of Kilauren's early months now: one, that Joni herself took her home for two or three months, and another, that Kilauren was in foster care the entire time. But, whatever the exact details may have been, it seems clear that the actual relinquishment was very difficult for Joni. At about the time she reunited with Kilauren, she said in an interview (with Robert Hilburn of the L.A. Times?) something to the effect of, "And the records indicate that, at the final court proceeding, I became extremely emotional. I don't remember exactly what happened that day, but I'm sure I did." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 19:44:22 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: family games njc colin, most probably folks that had "normal" lives were not very aware that the kids next door might have abusive parents or nothing to eat for days, etc.. just as we assumed that all parents were bastards, they may have assumed that the worst problem a family could have was a mild feud or sibling rivalry. in any case, i'm not sure that i'm a very religious person, but if i ever pray for somebody, it is for those people that "adopted" me for a sunday afternoon or two. more importantly, i thank those that showed me that a shitty childhood or youth is not a franchise: you still must try to be as good as you can, no matter what tragedies may have hit you earlier in your life. you owe it to those that, unknowingly or not, helped you out. wallyk . -----Original Message----- De: catman Para: Wally Kairuz CC: joni@smoe.org Fecha: Sábado 18 de Septiembre de 1999 14:50 Asunto: Re: family games njc >I wonder if those people realise what a great contribution they made to our >lives. Thank God for neighbours and friends who lived differently. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 18:16:48 -0500 From: mann@chicagonet.net Subject: Joni quoted in Nickelodeon Cartoon!!!!! Julie, OOPS! Oh well, Joni news worth repeating to the newbies on here! Great subliminial messages for the kids..........can't you see the kids repeating these words 'cuz they heard them on a cartoon???? I can see Myles hearing Joni's FREE MAN IN PARIS for the first time and telling me she's quoting from Hey Arnold!! Ha! Laura Julie Z. Webb wrote: > At 07:57 PM 9/17/99 -0500, mann@chicagonet.net wrote: > >My five-year old was watching "Hey Arnold" Nicktoons > >knew them that Arnold's Friend says "A free man in > >Paris unfettered and alive". Arnold says, "huh?" > >Then Arnold's friend says, "I heard it on a hippie record". > >Anyone else catch this? Julie or Terry? Or any of you > >childless people who watch cartoons (I know you're out there!). > Laura, > Yes yes, I saw that on "Hey Arnold" last year when we tried cable for a > few months, and I wrote about it here. I couldn't believe it when I heard > it! Like you, I was busy folding laundry and overheard it. If I recall, I > think that this cartoon comment began a thread about where Joni's lyrics > have appeared in surprising places. > -Julie > ps Laura, I have yet to get that "firetalk" gear (microphone etc,) so we > can chat via our computers. Will work on it this weekend. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:03:55 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: little green / let the wind carry me Penny wrote: >Which is why I think Joni and Myrtle's relationship became even more strained when Joni went >public about Kilauren. On one hand Joni had a huge burden eased and lifted by >coming clean about Kilauren and then reuniting with her (the lighter >feel of TTT) but now after she's settling in with that joy and relief, >comes dealing with all the issues raised with Myrtle. Interesting to consider how Myrtle may be dealing with it now. I would hope that at her age and at this stage in her life she would have resolved and transcended much of it and would just simply be happy and grateful for having lived to know her grandchild and great-grandchildren. I hope she would have gained that wisdom by now. And if she still feels any latent anger and recrimination towards Joni, she must also feel a little of that anger coming back on herself for her part in causing Joni to feel cut off in that way. > I'm saying the hurt between Joni and her mom is possibly Joni's most significant > lingering emotional conflict because Myrtle must have been/is > tremendously hurt by finding out Joni chose NOT to go to them, for > whatever the reasoning. If Joni's art thrives on "unresolve", I think > this may be where it will stem from currently. I agree, and while I suspect that Myrtle has resolved it pretty well, I don't think it will ever be completely resolved for Joni - it runs too deep. Just MHO. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 18:35:52 -0500 From: mann@chicagonet.net Subject: A Classy Deal -- Wine for 99 cents and free shipping! (NJC but she would approve) "Let's have a round for these friends of mine" Cheers! "All this Y2K talk seems just a bit hysterical, doesn't it? On the other hand, it's a great excuse for a wine sale. So, in keeping with the passing of 1999, our sale prices start at 99 cents. This is a great time to sample some new wines or restock your cellar for the year 2000. And, since civilzation doesn't seem to be going away, you'll be needing some holiday and New Year's gifts. Hey, if we're wrong, at least you've got something to toast the return of the cave dwelling lifestyle." Also, there's NO CHARGE FOR STANDARD (GROUND) SHIPPING! There is also a limit of one bottle per customer at for the special 99-cent price. Unfortunately, however, they only ship to the following states at this time: AK, CA, IA, ID, IL, LA, MN, MO, ND, NE, NH, NM, NV, OR, WA, WI and WV. The 99 cent wines available are: 1. Mondavi 1996 Napa Valley Zinfandel 2. Beaulieu BV 1996 Napa Valley Cabernet Sauvignon 3. Clos du Bois 1997 Chardonnay Alexander Valley If you then search by vineyard, you can locate the exact bottle. Click on those bottles to get in-depth tasting notes to help determine what might be to your liking. Also, it's one per person, NOT household! Both Mark and I ordered one! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.aussiehair.com/sample.asp You can choose one sample from the entire list of shampoos, conditioners, and styling products. You also have to know what the main ingredient in the product you choose is. Just follow their product guide link. ******************************************************************* drugstore.com has a free first aid kit for $1 shipping - These are REALLY nice - and if you order anything else the shipping total is only $1!! I think I paid $3.95 for this (shipping last time) http://www.drugstore.com/user/promo.asp?code=kit&aid=4020 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Free sample of Dove soap. http://www.mentadent.com/dove Put all the savings in a Piggy Bank for Joni's upcoming new album! Laura ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:09:18 -0700 From: "Ray & Cathy" Subject: re: Joni pic Dear Ashara and friends at Jonifest '99, A thousand thanks for making it possible for me to be sitting here gleaming with my new Joni picture from the raffle! Affectionately, Cathy in Oregon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:47:53 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil (vljc) I may be totally wrong about this but: if you wanted to record a published, copyrighted song on an album, I don't believe you had any obligation other than crediting it properly. The entity that owns the album is then responsible for paying royalties to the writers and publishers of the copyrighted material. This is called the compulsory license and applies to small (non-dramatic) uses of songs once they have been published. (What constitutes "publication" may be subject to question, but I believe that it has been clearer since the Copyright Act of 1976 took effect. I it's been recorded before and that recording offered for sale, it's published.) If you were doing a theatre piece using copyrighted songs, that would be a different story, but from what you've written here, unless I completely misunderstand you, you never had to ask them at all. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:43:15 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Joni Standards Album Just opened my Mark Isham newsletter and found this - "Mark was proud to play with another of his favorite artists, Joni Mitchell, on her upcoming album. His trumpet solos will be featured along with appearances by Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter [whoohoo!] and the London Philharmonic Orchestra - pretty good company!" It's feeling more real all the time! Kakki NP: Tito Puente soundcheck across the street - (and I have to go into work ;-( ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 12:05:35 +1000 From: Evan + Vanessa Thomson Subject: Eurythmics (NJC) They've reformed and I for one am just thrilled!! They're touring here in Oz around October. They'll be in Melbourne Saturday October 30th and I'm GOING!! I am just so thrilled. I've waited so long for them to reform and come back! They toured here in 1987 and I was too young to go! (My mum said I couldn't go. I was only 13 at the time) I listened to them on the radio as the concert was being broadcast live. It was sensational and it was a bittersweet hour and a half for me... However, when I was 16 I did manage to convince my parents that I was old enough to see Motley Crue! Mmm... the choices you make. However, I stand by my mistakes. It was wild and crazy and I had on blue mascara! So, despite the fact that it's $70.00 to see Annie and Dave I'm more than happy to pay. Mind you, I also donated $20.00 to Amnesty so it's now up to $90.00! Hell, I've not going to regret it. I've let too many opportunities slip me by. Like: Soundgarden - said I'd see them next time they toured, they broke up. Jane's Addiction - as above Jeff Buckley - said I'd see him next time but he had the audacity to go off and die before I could. Anyone else suffered similar fates? BTW, I do plan to send my version of meeting Ashara and Gerald Mac to the List! It takes me awhile to formulate my thoughts. Needless to say... I survived and I was thrilled by the experience. Vanessa N.P. Gordian Knot "Code/Anti Code" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 22:33:41 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: little green In a message dated 9/18/1999 5:06:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PitassiM@WEAC.org writes: << I've never interpreted this song, though, about having any bearing on what decision she might have made about raising *Kilauren* if circumstances had been different. >> Mary, I agree. That's why I wrote "a baby", not Kilauren, when I suggested that she may have known long ago that raising a child wasn't something she felt she could do. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 03:57:18 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: family games njc > more importantly, i thank those that showed me that a > shitty childhood or youth is not a franchise: you still must try to be as > good as you can, no matter what tragedies may have hit you earlier in your > life. you owe it to those that, unknowingly or not, helped you out. and, more importantly, we owe it to ourselves. unfortunately, there are people who feel so bitter they just get stuck and continue the wrong doing. > wallyk > > . -----Original Message----- > De: catman > Para: Wally Kairuz > CC: joni@smoe.org > Fecha: Sábado 18 de Septiembre de 1999 14:50 > Asunto: Re: family games njc > > >I wonder if those people realise what a great contribution they made to our > >lives. Thank God for neighbours and friends who lived differently. - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 00:06:12 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Standards Album In a message dated 9/18/99 7:12:05 PM US Central Standard Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << Mark was proud to play with another of his favorite artists, Joni Mitchell, on her upcoming album. >> That's great to hear, his work on the "Day In the Garden Show" was wonderful...much more textured and emotional than Chris Botti... Bob NP: S.Vega, "Straight Lines" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 00:08:24 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: little green / let the wind carry me In a message dated 9/18/99 5:38:01 PM US Central Standard Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << I agree, and while I suspect that Myrtle has resolved it pretty well, I don't think it will ever be completely resolved for Joni >> I don't know, Kakki, Joni says that Myrtle was all huffy about "Face Lift", I'm not sure they've kissed and made up over any of this old dirt...sounds like Myrtle can hold a grudge like my old Granny... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 22:24:51 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Larry Klein in People Magazine (NJC) From: mann@chicagonet.net Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 19:00:56 -0500 Check out the pic. of Larry under PICS & PANS (pg. 42) in the September 27 issue of People Magazine (Judge Judy is on the cover). The caption reads: "Scheming Jade Gordon steps out with record producer Larry Klein in Sugar Town. Saw this one a little blurry waiting in the eye doc's office this a.m. to have a piece of 'something' removed from my eye after it hit me at about 90 miles an hour while vacuuming. I about died when the eye doc said to the nurse, "hand me the forceps please!" I thought I had walked into an OB's office! YEEEEOOOWWWWWWWWW! Thank heavens for those numbing eyedrops!! I'll be using safety goggles while doing housework from now on! (tee hee) Laura ;-] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 01:25:17 -0400 From: waytoblu@mindspring.com Subject: Re: family games njc >"Monopoly" anyone? > Not many people know this but monopoly was not invented by Charles Darrow who has always been given credit. It was actually invented by some Quakers from Pennsylvania. They used an old paint cloth and made all the pieces by hand. The original gameset was kept at a central meeting place where it could be checked out until it disappeared. Basically, it was stolen and marketed to Parker Brothers who made it the well known game it is today. Just recently, maybe 1990 or so, the people who created the game finally got some recognition and acknowledgement. I have the whole story somewhere, which is rather interesting. If I can find it I will post it. The parents of a college professor of mine, Cecil B. Harvey, where chiefly responsible for creating monopoly. I also have a fond memory of Jerry Garcia and David Letterman playing monopoly on the David Letterman show. Jerry told David he wouldn't play unless he could have the "top hat" and then put down "truckin" which David said he couldn't use because it's not a real word. Victor NP:Michelle Malone--Homegrown ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #418 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! 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