From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #417 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Saturday, September 18 1999 Volume 04 : Number 417 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- little green... [evian ] Action/Penis Size (NJC) [evian ] Re: little green... ["Kakki" ] Re: Action/Penis Size (NJC) [catman ] Re: NJC Music Sluts Must Confess [Jason Maloney ] Re: little green... [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: little green... [MGVal@aol.com] Re: NJC first 45s [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: NJC first 45s [Jason Maloney ] re: little Green ["Ben Mulvey" ] Re: little Green [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: NJC first 45s [catman ] Re: little green... [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Re[2]: Photos [waytoblu@mindspring.com] Re: little green... [LLDeMerle ] family games njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: little green... [RMuRocks@aol.com] RE: little green... ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: family games njc [RMuRocks@aol.com] NJC The Sound Of Music [catman ] Re: little green... [LLDeMerle ] Re: little green... ["Kakki" ] Re: little green / let the wind carry me [zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny)] Re: Good vs. Evil NJC - Tattoos [Ashara@aol.com] Re: little green... [LLDeMerle ] Re: njc nick drake tribute concert u.k ["gerry mcnee" ] NJC gifts of God [Vince Lavieri ] Re: little green... [LLDeMerle ] Re: Good vs. Evil NJC - Tattoos [catman ] Re: little green... ["Kakki" ] Re: little green... [LLDeMerle ] Re: NJC gifts of God [catman ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 01:15:16 -0600 From: evian Subject: little green... Siresorrow writes: > Do y'all think she has forgiven herself? as demanding as she is in the > studio, imagine how hard she must have been on herself over this. > Well, I am sure Joni must deal with feelings of guilt, etc., but I have always gotten the impression that Joni was past the point of having to "forgive" herself. As she stated many times, she had no options, and her decision to put her daughter up for adoption was not something that she felt needed forgiveness. Rather, Joni had the best interests of her child in mind, and I think that this is what really got her through the years. Sure, the pain, guilt, shame, etc. didn't disappear, but I think that Joni has never thought that she must be forgiven.... maybe her sadness has abated, but I don't think forgiveness necessarily figures into the equation. My sister gave her daughter up for adoption when she was 17, and, 18 years later, she says in retrospect that this was the best decision she could have made. I know that she is still indeed awash in sadness when her daughter's birthday rolls around, and I know that it is quite poignant for her now that she is married and has three other children, and I also know that she does feel guilt in thinking "Things would have worked out somehow if I had kept her", but I don't think forgiveness is anything that she feels she needs to do, that she needs to give herself. She took the best option at the time, like Joni. Neither need forgiving, and I don't think that Joni thinks deep down that she has to forgive herself for something that doesn't need forgiving. Just my opinion..... Evian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 02:11:23 -0600 From: evian Subject: Action/Penis Size (NJC) Oh, I loved Action! It reminded me kinda sorta of Larry Sanders, which I loved. And Ileana Douglas... She's so great... kinda the Janeane Garofolo of the show. And then Julie posed the question: > One thing though, what's all this attention to penis size? Do > "small-penis" men obsess about their penis size **all day long?** > Of course not Julie. Never. I can safely say it never crosses the minds of any man, endowed or not. I mean, of course not... Why do you ask? What have you heard? Who have you been talking to? My ex-girlfriend is just mad about that time I forgot her Mom's birthday... I mean... I thought I went and erased that graffiti off those women's room walls.... Was it someone from the gym?? They are just mad because I hogged the tread mill when people were waiting, and want to get back at me by spreading rumours. Is that where you are getting this? Who has been saying what? I mean, the whole idea is ludicrous. I mean, it's never crossed my mind.... Simply crazy... obsessed about penis size... I mean... I just called those plastic surgeons to see about a nose job, NOTHING else.... how was I to know that the ad in the back of that magazine wasn't for an ear/nose/throat guy? And who said anything about socks? I mean.. riddiculous! Never has crossed my mind at all.... Evian P.S. Yup, seems as if I have probably crossed the good taste barrier, but don't flame me, I've had one of those weeks and just need to be silly! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 01:08:07 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: little green... Evian wrote: > Well, I am sure Joni must deal with feelings of guilt, etc., but I have > always gotten the impression that Joni was past the point of having to > "forgive" herself. As she stated many times, she had no options, and > her decision to put her daughter up for adoption was not something that > she felt needed forgiveness. Rather, Joni had the best interests of her > child in mind, and I think that this is what really got her through the > years. Sure, the pain, guilt, shame, etc. didn't disappear, but I think > that Joni has never thought that she must be forgiven.... maybe her > sadness has abated, but I don't think forgiveness necessarily figures > into the equation. I think this is right on, Evian. I've also never sensed that, either. On my very first listen to Little Green when Blue was released, I knew immediately that she had given up a child for adoption. Everything about the song, her lyrics, the melody and the tone of her voice revealed deep sorrow, loss and regret but not guilt. We've had this thread go around before and many people have varying thoughts about the wherefores and whys. I recall getting particularly upset about some of the letters to various publications which blithely attacked her and questioned her motives, i.e., she selfishly wanted to pursue the music career and fame and didn't want to be saddled with the child. It's fact that she was in a completely untenable situation and I can respect her reasons for making the choice she made. Some people say "and then she became famous just a year later, blah, blah." Here's a thought - maybe the way she coped with the horrible pain of the whole situation of making a real wrong choice of a husband and having to give up her baby, was to go inside to the one thing she had left - her creative reservoir - and throw herself totally into it. Out of that immersion came a wealth of incredible songs, one right after the other. They got noticed, and she was quickly catapulted on her way. I'll never buy that she somehow calculated it all out in advance to give up the baby so she could be famous - maybe it would work that way for a mediocre talent who had someone grooming and packaging them and providing them with someone else's songs to play, but not Joni. She could not have calculated out those early songs and their effect in a million lifetimes. Kakki NP: Kenny Rankin - In The Name Of Love ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 11:34:35 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Action/Penis Size (NJC) Silly or not, that was amusing! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 12:12:21 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: NJC Music Sluts Must Confess catman wrote: > > I own the aqua cd and I love the Barbie song. And no, I am not being funny, > just truthful. As I adore Turn Back Time, there have been moments when I've been tempted to get the Aqua CD. Is it mostly like Barbie Girl, or are there more songs like Turn Back Time? Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 12:39:28 +0100 From: Martin Giles Subject: RE: NJC let me be a strumpet too!!! On Froday, Wally owned up.. > more evidence of my compulsive music purchase disorder is the staggering > number of christmas albums i have bought through the years. how many > versions of the first noel can a person need? So it's you is it? I have been involved in the making of a few Christmas albums over the years (guess that REALLY makes me a music slut- I only do it for money;-). One year I had the pleasure of mastering a serioes of albums called 'The 60s Singalong Party Album', 'The 70s Singalong...' etc. It culminated of course that year with the 'Christmas Singalong Partyu Album' The next year we had 'Karoke hits', from the 50s, 60s, 70s.. culminating in 'Your All Time Favourite Karaoke Christmas Album' The worst ever album I've ever had the displeasure of mastering I won't mention by name, but it was a Sound Of The Pan Pipes album. They hadn't even used real panpipes though - Just a sythesiser emulation. Am I the real music slut or what??? Martin. P.S. Not that she needs any help, but working on that kind of thing during the day, and then coming home to Joni really throws her into sharp relief!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 08:05:03 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: little green... In a message dated 9/17/99 9:03:21 AM US Central Standard Time, Siresorrow@aol.com writes: << Do y'all think she has forgiven herself? as demanding as she is in the studio, imagine how hard she must have been on herself over this. >> I don't think she ever felt the need to forgive herself, She did what she did in the best interest of her child...doesn't mean she never felt regret or grief over it though... Bob NP: Laura Nyro, "Sweet lovin' baby" (It tickles me how these NP's sometimes compliment a post subject...) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 08:15:07 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: little green... In a message dated 9/18/99 5:07:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, RMuRocks@aol.com writes: << I don't think she ever felt the need to forgive herself, She did what she did in the best interest of her child...doesn't mean she never felt regret or grief over it though... >> (Good morning Bob!!) I agree with that statement! And beyond the regret and grief, I think that it was a situation that colored nearly everything, as was pointed out. Surely, (from my voyeur point of view only), it's had to have had its mark on trust issues and other heart/love situations. One thing that I believe makes her situation especially poignant is that she brought the baby home for about 3 months. Many adoptions are made at birth and you only have the aching aftermath. Here, she took that baby home, bathed her, fed her, loved her. I've been in awful emotional situations where love battled with other things, but I cannot imagine something like this. What a quandary! And yet, although she left clues and crumbs along the way, she never whined, she never complained. She just plowed forward. I have to admire that as well! MG - still working on the flooring project. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 08:19:46 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC first 45s In a message dated 9/17/99 6:42:09 AM US Central Standard Time, notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu writes: << Spending hours over the dishes as a family we passed the time singing songs at the top of our lungs. A family past time long gone. Was it really drudgery? >> Of course not, Jerry, it was what made family memories...It makes me very melancholy now to see these vans/SUV's that feature VCR's, personal stereo's for every family member so they can tune each other out...I remember many a road trip spent singing show tunes, pop tunes, making up songs, whatever...Once my sister and I made up about 100 verses to a song we called "One-Ton Tomato" based on that song "Guantanamara", about a guy who ate a one ton tomato and all his adventures...my Dad finally got sick of it and told us to shut up! :~) Another thing that I have mixed feelings about is all these classic games (Sorry, Monopoly, Yahtzee, etc.) that parents buy kids on CD-Rom so they can play on the computer. Call me old-fashioned, goldarnit, but the POINT OF THE GAME is to put a family together at the table to enjoy each other's company! After all, there's no better feeling than drawing a "Sorry" when your big sister's rounding her last gamepiece into the "Safety Zone", or having your Dad land on Marvin Gardens when you've got a hotel on it, or throwing a Yahtzee, and yelling it out ! Or even "Snakes & Ladders", for that matter, although the version we played was called "Chutes and Ladders". (How's that for bringing it back to Joni! ) Bob NP: Laura Nyro, "You don't love me when I cry" PS: Speaking of Laura, "You Dropped The Bomb On me" was The Gap Band - they were totally awesome! We used to play that song in Aerobics class during desert storm...:~) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:44:59 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: NJC first 45s RMuRocks@aol.com wrote: > Another thing that I have mixed feelings about is all these classic games > (Sorry, Monopoly, Yahtzee, etc.) that parents buy kids on CD-Rom so they can > play on the computer. Call me old-fashioned, goldarnit, but the POINT OF THE > GAME is to put a family together at the table to enjoy each other's company! Amen to that! Yes, I despair at this kind of "progress". I have so many wonderful childhood memories of playing board games with friends, family and relations. To me, that was a major part of the appeal in those games. Then Atari, Spectrum and Commodore systems came along, and every kid began to retreat into themselves. I still enjoy a good game of Scrabble, and rumagaing around for the tiles in the bag! :-) Jason (anyone want to swap for a "Z" and a "Q" ) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 05:42:18 PDT From: "Ben Mulvey" Subject: re: little Green < Do you think she would have made a > different plan for a baby?" I may be wrong here - but I think Joni mentions this in one (or more) of the interveiws up on the JMDL Cafe website. Where she more or less says (can't remember a quote) - that as a couple of years later she was making money and she would have. In all the times I've heard her mention this it come accross strongly how much she hated having to give the baby up - but as she was in absolute poverty - there wasn't much choice. Also she felt there was no one to turn to, and she was too ashamed to turn to her family. I guess its just as well she didn't get swallowed up by the Sister of Chartity/Magdalene Laundries, or their might never have been a Joni Mitchell at all!!! Ben ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 10:18:19 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: little Green In a message dated 9/18/1999 8:44:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, benjhk@hotmail.com writes: << I may be wrong here - but I think Joni mentions this in one (or more) of the interveiws up on the JMDL Cafe website. Where she more or less says (can't remember a quote) - that as a couple of years later she was making money and she would have. >> But Joni herself says: "Sometimes I get that feeling And I want to settle And raise a child up with somebody I get that strong longing And I want to settle And raise a child up with somebody But it passes like the summer I'm a wild seed again Let the wind carry me" Terry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:32:49 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC first 45s > based on that song "Guantanamara", when we ere little, my brothers and I called this song'One Ton A Mellons' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 12:04:01 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: little green... In a message dated 9/18/1999 8:17:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MGVal@aol.com writes: << One thing that I believe makes her situation especially poignant is that she brought the baby home for about 3 months. Many adoptions are made at birth and you only have the aching aftermath. Here, she took that baby home, bathed her, fed her, loved her. I've been in awful emotional situations where love battled with other things, but I cannot imagine something like this. What a quandary! And yet, although she left clues and crumbs along the way, she never whined, she never complained. She just plowed forward. I have to admire that as well! MG - still working on the flooring project. >> wow can you imagine? Having a 3 month old and having to put her up for adoption....I found that impossible to do but I feel that Joni was looking after the best interest of her daughter but still the decsion was the hardest thing in her life she ever had to do. I think her sorrow is in almost every song she ever did..... Catgirl having just watched the BBC again.....you can see it in her eyes....now we all know why... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 12:40:10 -0400 From: waytoblu@mindspring.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: Photos >At 21:21 09/17/1999 EDT, Catgirl asked: > >>btw does anyone have a scanner that I may send these pics to for scanning? > >If there is a copy center (like Kinko's) near you, they usually have >professional quality scanners (better than most home scanners, these >produce very high quality scans) which you can use to make personal >copies for little cost... especially if you bring your own diskettes. I don't think Kinko's scans are much higher quality than what most people can do at home now. They tend to have the same HP scanners that alot of people use. Actually, a cheap flat bed scanner will scan a photo with the same quality alot of the more expensive ones do. Professional printing companies use drum scanners, which do scan at an extremely high precision, but can cost $20-$30 dollars a scan(as I found much to my dismay when I was having my cd booklet printed...) catgirl, I would be glad to scan any photos for you and could email the files directly to you and avoid having to save them to disk. Victor NP: J.Mitchell Hejira ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:17:36 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: little green... At 08:05 AM 9/18/99 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 9/17/99 9:03:21 AM US Central Standard Time, >Siresorrow@aol.com writes: > ><< Do y'all think she has forgiven herself? as demanding as she is in the > studio, imagine how hard she must have been on herself over this. >> > > I don't think she ever felt the need to forgive herself, She did what she >did in the best interest of her child...doesn't mean she never felt regret or >grief over it though... > >Bob Vot?? Bob!! ^_^ (<--eyebrows raised incredulously) With a soul as deep and wide as Joni's and the propensity for a seeming need for confession in her work (not to *mention* the "Calvinistic" impressions of her mother and Joni's reasons for concealing her pregnancy form her folks,) you really think Joni never felt guilt? I sincerely doubt it. ^_^ A simple opinion... :) LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^ http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 14:28:34 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: family games njc bob, number 1, you're listening to my FAVORITE laura nyro album. i'll go play captain st.lucifer right now. number two, i agree with you about families playing together. although the only games we played at home were "daddy's drunk, run for cover" or "guess how many valiums mummy has swallowed today!", i was fortunate enough to have friends whose families played together for hours on end on sunday afternoons. seeing them have fun over a monopoly board or whatever games people played in the 60's was my first realization that things were different in other homes and that i could rise above the "games" that my parents enjoyed so much. incidentally, in 1976, during the 3 days that schools were closed during the military coup, my friends and i spent hours and hours playing monopoly and cards with the family of one of them. as there was a curfew, i had a perfect excuse not to go back home for 3 days!!!! wallyK - ----Original Message----- De: RMuRocks@aol.com Para: notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu CC: joni@smoe.org Fecha: Sábado 18 de Septiembre de 1999 06:38 Asunto: Re: NJC first 45s >In a message dated 9/17/99 6:42:09 AM US Central Standard Time, >notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu writes: > ><< Spending hours over the dishes as a family we > passed the time singing songs at the top of our lungs. A family past time > long gone. Was it really drudgery? >> > >Of course not, Jerry, it was what made family memories...It makes me very >melancholy now to see these vans/SUV's that feature VCR's, personal stereo's >for every family member so they can tune each other out...I remember many a >road trip spent singing show tunes, pop tunes, making up songs, >whatever...Once my sister and I made up about 100 verses to a song we called >"One-Ton Tomato" based on that song "Guantanamara", about a guy who ate a one >ton tomato and all his adventures...my Dad finally got sick of it and told us >to shut up! :~) > >Another thing that I have mixed feelings about is all these classic games >(Sorry, Monopoly, Yahtzee, etc.) that parents buy kids on CD-Rom so they can >play on the computer. Call me old-fashioned, goldarnit, but the POINT OF THE >GAME is to put a family together at the table to enjoy each other's company! > >After all, there's no better feeling than drawing a "Sorry" when your big >sister's rounding her last gamepiece into the "Safety Zone", or having your >Dad land on Marvin Gardens when you've got a hotel on it, or throwing a >Yahtzee, and yelling it out ! > >Or even "Snakes & Ladders", for that matter, although the version we played >was called "Chutes and Ladders". (How's that for bringing it back to Joni! ) > >Bob > >NP: Laura Nyro, "You don't love me when I cry" > >PS: Speaking of Laura, "You Dropped The Bomb On me" was The Gap Band - they >were totally awesome! We used to play that song in Aerobics class during >desert storm...:~) > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:29:59 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: little green... In a message dated 9/18/99 11:15:02 AM US Central Standard Time, de_merle@iagora.com writes: << you really think Joni never felt guilt? >> Well, sure she felt a certain amount of guilt over the whole episode, but I just don't think she felt like she had to *forgive* herself...she's a brilliant and headstrong woman and always been, so she never would have done it if she considered it unforgiveable. So LL, you just put those eyebrows back down! :~) Bob NP: "Carey" from the Troubadour show, '72 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 14:35:59 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: little green... - -----Original Message----- De: MGVal@aol.com Para: joni@smoe.org Fecha: Sábado 18 de Septiembre de 1999 06:33 Asunto: Re: little green... >One thing that I believe makes her situation especially poignant is that she >brought the baby home for about 3 months. >MG - still working on the flooring project. well, if we feel this kind of withdrawal after being with one another for a couple of days, can you imagine what a person like joni might have felt when she had to live without the baby that she had been raising for 3 months? i think one thing is to live with the decision and quite another to live without the baby. wallyk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:34:46 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: family games njc In a message dated 9/18/99 11:27:19 AM US Central Standard Time, wallykai@interserver.com.ar writes: << although the only games we played at home were "daddy's drunk, run for cover" or "guess how many valiums mummy has swallowed today!" >> This is so sad, and probably not as rare as we'd think. My folks weren't Ozzie & Harriet, but my childhood was pretty peaceful and loving...rejoice in the fact that you made it and are as cool and complete as you are, my friend! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 18:46:34 +0100 From: catman Subject: NJC The Sound Of Music Just read a two page article in The London eveing Standard about this movie. The Prince Charles Theatre in Leicester Square is showing the film twice a week. Peole attend the film dressed up as the characters, nuns and curtains and unfiroms etc ala The Rocky Horror Picture Show!!!!! Theyu had a comp for the best dressed and a real Nun won it! - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 14:12:26 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: little green... At 01:29 PM 9/18/99 -0400, RMuRocks@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 9/18/99 11:15:02 AM US Central Standard Time, >de_merle@iagora.com writes: > ><< you really think Joni never felt guilt? >> > >Well, sure she felt a certain amount of guilt over the whole episode, but I >just don't think she felt like she had to *forgive* herself...she's a >brilliant and headstrong woman and always been, so she never would have done >it if she considered it unforgiveable. > >So LL, you just put those eyebrows back down! :~) Pffft!! Methinks you misjudge, Bob. Brilliant and headstrong are not incompatible with guilt, which can be defined as sorrow, of a sort. I guess it depends on how one defines "guilt." Lessee..... ::::::::::::flippin' thru :: HEY!! Well, I would be flippin' through the Oxford English Dictionary, but TEENAGERS have torn my office asunder!! I am temporarily forced to resort to a thesaurus: guilt n 1. BLAME culpability, culpa, reprehensibility, criminality, guiltiness, crime, sin, wrongdoing, liability. Hmm. Not looking very promising, here, is it? 2. REMORSE regret, shame, conscience, contrition, disgrace, self-reproach, penitence, compunction. "The avenging fiend that follows us behind with whips and stings." ~ Nicholas Rowe "guilty," set 2 is even *better,* Bob. 2. REMORSEFUL regretful, ashamed, conscience-stricken, contrite, disgraced, *sorry* <<<<< :) Capitals courtesy of Roget, stars mine. According to Merriam-Webster: Pronunciation: 'gilt Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, delinquency, guilt, from Old English gylt delinquency Date: before 12th century 1 : the fact of having committed a breach of conduct especially violating law and involving a penalty; broadly : guilty conduct 2 a : the state of one who has committed an offense especially consciously b : feelings of culpability especially for imagined offenses or from a sense of inadequacy : SELF-REPROACH 3 : a feeling of culpability for offenses ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ So. Hmm? Not to *mention* wally's keen perception: "well, if we feel this kind of withdrawal after being with one another for a couple of days, can you imagine what a person like joni might have felt when she had to live without the baby that she had been raising for 3 months? i think one thing is to live with the decision and quite another to live without the baby. wallyk" This is not to say that *you* are not also keenly perceptive, Bob. Jes mebbe not 'bout the many pains illustrated in many different official words or terms that GUILT (caps mine) can perpetuate. :) So. Whadja have fer breakfast? :) LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 10:54:42 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: little green... LLDeMerle wrote: > With a soul as deep and wide as Joni's and the propensity for a seeming > need for confession in her work (not to *mention* the "Calvinistic" > impressions of her mother and Joni's reasons for concealing her pregnancy > form her folks,) you really think Joni never felt guilt? I think that she probably felt anguish at failing to fall in line with the accepted social mores of the day and the effect that could have on her parents's sensibilities. But guilt over not living up to what others may expect or believe is false guilt and was ultimately irrelevant in the larger picture of her circumstances. Kakki NP: Kenny Rankin - Laura Nyro's TIme and Love ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 11:39:53 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Re: little green / let the wind carry me Didn't this whole little green thread start over how Joni seemed so much more at peace in TTT after she had reunited with Kilauren? And that there was some speculation with that tension and longing now resolved Joni may not be driven so intensely to release through her artistic expression? Here's a question in light of the other sensitive posts that point out how hard it was for Joni to give up Kelly (Kilauren) after bonding with her for three months. What does it say about Joni's trust in and respect of her parents, especially Myrtle, that she'd hide the birth and give the baby up for adoption rather than go to her folks for some help and support? (Not to mention what that says about Joni's pride.) Geez, that must have been a horrible kick in the teeth to Myrtle to find out years later that your daughter gave up a child she wanted to keep, instead of trusting there would be love and support at home. If Joni needs emotional conflict to write her most powerful and touching songs, my guess is it'll be her relationship with her mom that provides the lack of resolve to drive her creative energies. Penny ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 14:45:52 EDT From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil NJC - Tattoos Catherine wrote: << but I'd be willing to bet a few bucks there's either something in the Bible (Old Testament/ Torah) about this and/or that it isn't Kosher. >> and the Rev wrote: <> Terry added: <> From"The Second Jewish Book of Why" by Alfred J. Kolatch "Why does biblical law prohibit tattooing? Leviticus 19:28 states explicitly, "You shalt not cut into your flesh for the dead, nor cut any marks on yourselves; I am the Lord." Ancient peoples of the Near East often cut into their skin and mutilated their bodies to demonstrate grief. They also cut into their skin and filled the incisions with indelible dyes, creating tattoos of the deities they worshipped. These practices were forbidden to Jews not only because they represented pagan worship, but also because they ran counter to the biblical prohibitions against spilling blood and mistreating man's God-given body. Since tattooing in modern times involves pricking the skin rather than cutting into it, and since idolatry is no longer practiced among civilized people, there is some doubt whether the biblical ban against it applies today." Hugs, Ashara {the Jewish Mama with not 1, but 2 tatoos!} ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 15:02:52 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: little green... Hi Kakki, >I think that she probably felt anguish at failing to fall in line with the >accepted social mores of the day and the effect that could have on her >parents's sensibilities. Joni Mitchell has seemed to follow her heart for the most part and lived her life the way she's seen fit. When we are young, however, as young as she was at the time, we are tied much closer to the values of our parents, no matter how skewed they seem to be. We struggle against them and what we feel to be right, however, often they win out, even hundred of miles away. Time matures and takes us further away form the manipulations of this "false guilt" as you say. I may be mistaken, but from what I had read in the archives, Joni emphasized that the opinions of her parents were pretty much paramount in her decisions during those 2-3 years when she became pregnant, moved to Toronto with K's father, gave birth alone, married Mitchell in an attempt to keep her child, and then, finally after the marriage dissolved, told her parents of her child... I think she felt fear and reluctance to deal with their reaction over how she had conducted her personal life. "Going out you get the third degree, Coming in, you get World War III," (paraphrased) Her mother admitted in one of the interviews that this was pretty much the way things were. In addition to fear/reluctance at having to tolerate disapproval, belittling and carping (thanks, Roget) and whatever else would have occurred, there may well have been pride involved. Who is to know what kinds of things Joni's mother said? When she went to art school, her mother declared that she could never stick with and finish anything. Could be that her parents, or mother at least were highly critical, to the point of making it seem impossible to go to her/them when vulnerable and in need of support, expecting verbal pummeling and shaming. >But guilt over not living up to what others may >expect or believe is false guilt and was ultimately irrelevant in the larger >picture of her circumstances. Guilt over not living up to someone else's expectations basically translates to a fear of disappointing the holder of the expectations. Though Joni's mother says NOW that she and her husband would have been supportive, this was many years ago, and her mother may have changed her tune a little, however, my instinct is to go with what Joni indicates: that her mother was the unforgiving or at the very least, the "difficult to please" type. ??? For what it's worth... :) Ironically, now playing? "Face Lift" LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:08:23 +0100 From: "gerry mcnee" Subject: Re: njc nick drake tribute concert u.k - ---------- >From: "gerry mcnee" >To:joni@smoe.org >Subject: n.j.c nick drake tribute u.k >Date: Fri, Sep 17, 1999, 11:41 pm > >for the nick drake fans out there .i just read tonight there will be a >tribute concert at the barbican sat the 25th of sept featuring: ben and >jason (who),bernard butler,nick laird-clowes, nigel kennedy,robyn hitchcock >with more guests to be announced also the night before topic records are >holding a 60th anniversary concert with a host of greats: waterson and >carthy, joan baez,bert jansch,dick gaughan,christine collister,eddi >reader,billy bragg and many more to be confirmed sounds like fun lets hope >its not sold out . >gerry > >n/p tanworth in arden: nick drake ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 15:26:00 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: little green... the guilt that i was thinking of had to do with the separation of a mother and child. having a child initiates life, but raising a child nurtures and develops that same life. in her choice, she limited herself from the second half of having children. that is not to judge her. half the stuff i have done in my life i'm quite shamed about. and i don't like guilt on anyone. but in her character is a sense of committment and devotion which we see in her music and i am thinking she would have that too in her other facets of life. i guess i am thinking that for her to have a child and allow someone else to raise it probably was a misery for many years on her heart. i do think she felt this her whole career and it oozes out in her songs. ....let me speak, let me spit out my bitterness guilt is a heavy burden and i'd not wish it on anyone. it messes me up sometimes. i'd be surprised if she did not suffer its wrath over the years. to not know where your child is. that is not for the weak. but at the same time, i am costantly amazed at the reunion for this very reason. it was a true miracle and i think she is walking on sacred ground. she is a chosen one, to spread a story of love. there is a bible story about a man born blind and the people ask jesus why was the man born blind, because of his sins or the sins of his parents. and he gives a rare simple answer.....neither. he was born blind so god's work can be revealed through him. then, god healed his sight. so, why did joni have to give up her child at birth? because of her sins, or the sins of her parents? neither.....so god's work could be revealed through her. then god returned her child to her. i am very pleased though to see all the different reads on this issue and we'll never know the whole story. and im sure our own stories affect how we see her story.ss ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 12:20:07 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: little green / let the wind carry me Hi Penny, you wrote: > Here's a question in light of the other sensitive posts > that point out how hard it was for Joni to give up Kelly (Kilauren) > after bonding with her for three months. What does it say about Joni's > trust in and respect of her parents, especially Myrtle, that she'd hide > the birth and give the baby up for adoption rather than go to her folks > for some help and support? (Not to mention what that says about Joni's > pride.) What I envision Joni considering at the time was the specter of returning home a single mother, with a surprise child that was not her ex-husband's and having to deal with her mother's ferocious wrath. I think she felt this was the absolute worse option - coming home to the anger,and also feeling responsible for upsetting her parents' lives and causing them social embarrassment I think she probably thought she would never hear the end of it from her mother and, while I'm sure she personally wanted to avoid that scenario, more than that, I think she did not want to subject Kilauren to that kind of negative environment. She may have felt that her mother would have never let her live it down. And then how good of a mother could Joni have been at the time having to deal with the disapproval and recriminations? She wanted something much better and cleaner for her child. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:02:26 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: NJC gifts of God Ashara@aol.com wrote: > Catherine wrote: > > << but I'd be willing to bet a few bucks there's either something in the > Bible (Old Testament/ Torah) about this and/or that it isn't Kosher. >> > > and the Rev wrote: > > < holiness code (which of course is in the book of Leviticus).>> > > Terry added: > > < one's > body, period. >> > > So Ashara, {the Jewish Mama with not 1, but 2 tatoos!}, quotes From"The Second > Jewish Book of Why" by Alfred J. Kolatch > > "Why does biblical law prohibit tattooing? > > Leviticus 19:28 states explicitly, "You shalt not cut into your flesh for the > dead, nor cut any marks on yourselves; I am the Lord." > Ancient peoples of the Near East often cut into their skin and mutilated > their bodies to demonstrate grief. They also cut into their skin and filled > the incisions with indelible dyes, creating tattoos of the deities they > worshipped. These practices were forbidden to Jews not only because they > represented pagan worship, but also because they ran counter to the biblical > prohibitions against spilling blood and mistreating man's God-given body. > Since tattooing in modern times involves pricking the skin rather than > cutting into it, and since idolatry is no longer practiced among civilized > people, there is some doubt whether the biblical ban against it applies > today." I am thankful that Ashara's text supports the reasoning that I had suggested (actually quite relieved... woe to me if I were wrong on a Biblical thing!). Before the question is asked, and given the great interest in things penile here lately, circumcision is not defilement of the body under Torah, or any of the Scriptures, or the mishnah, nor any other teaching. Circumcision is a permanent sign of the covenantal relationship with God (not the sort of thing that could be disguised, being a permanent and obvious thing). Remember the the God of the Scriptures is a great One indeed, not the sorrowful jones that the puritans have made us all think. The sign of the covenant being on the tip of the organ of sexual activity for the male meant that every child conceived was conceived by the fluid which passed through the organ marked with the sign of God's love. And if the sexual act is not for the purpose of procreation, then circumcision is a reminder that the gift of joy and pleasure in sex and love is a gift from God - -- for orgasm happens at the place where the sign of the covenant with God is. So under the tradition, males are circumcised (which does not diminish pleasure) but females are not (which is done in some cultures precisely to diminish women's pleasure). And for those who doubt that God cares about our joy in sex (albeit in a loving, mutual relationship), read the Song of Songs (a/k/a Song of Solomon) which is NOT an analogy to God's love for the church (as some would have it, and that is a wacky concept...) but a joyous celebration of the gift of love and sexual expression and passion in that love between two people committed to one another. Echoes of that same message are found in Ruth and Ecclesiastes, and hardly ever are any of these Scriptural passages read at Christian services, but are read once a year in every synagogue. Don't you hate it when as I am planning my Sunday worship service I see this JMDL stuff that has theological overtones? It gets me a-preachin'. Sorry. (the Rev) Vince (who really is an ordained minister...) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:00:12 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: little green... 'Oh. LL again.' :( Yes, have nothing better to do today than to hang out at "joni." Siresorrow@aol.com wrote: >that is not to judge her. half the stuff i have done in my life i'm quite >shamed about. and i don't like guilt on anyone. but in her character is a >sense of committment and devotion which we see in her music and i am thinking >she would have that too in her other facets of life. i guess i am thinking >that for her to have a child and allow someone else to raise it probably was >a misery for many years on her heart. i do think she felt this her whole >career and it oozes out in her songs. I feel the same way. >guilt is a heavy burden and i'd not wish it on anyone. it messes me up >sometimes. i'd be surprised if she did not suffer its wrath over the years. >to not know where your child is. that is not for the weak. To not know where your child is and then to go on, persevere in your work and art the way she did and then to gain such incredible success and recognition is quite an accomplishment. It denotes a strong spirit, which is of no surprise to anyone on this list, certainly. In one of the articles, K had said that she was very proud of her mother for not letting the situation stop her from doing what she felt she needed to, professionally. Joni likely threw herself into her work/art, because quite frankly, what else did she have with K gone and the Mitchell option crashed and burned? Frankly, I don't understand how she could stand to stay with him after having married him to keep K .and then giving UP K. because the marriage was not happening. Perhaps she stayed with Mitchell a while after K. was gone for appearances (her mother, again?) >i am very pleased though to see all the different reads on this issue and >we'll never know the whole story. and im sure our own stories affect how we >see her story.ss I'm sure that you are correct. I always say, "Perception is everything." LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 21:11:09 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil NJC - Tattoos > and since idolatry is no longer practiced among civilized > people, I beg to differ on this comment. Idolatry is alive and well amongst so called civilised people.(tho not sure which peoples aren't civilised!) Many people still worship statues of saints, or Mary etc. Also, people idolise other things such as money, power, sex, drugs etc. People have turned all sorts of things into God.bw colin - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 12:46:29 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: little green... LL and Siresorrow wrote: > >i am very pleased though to see all the different reads on this issue and > >we'll never know the whole story. and im sure our own stories affect how we > >see her story.ss > > > I'm sure that you are correct. I always say, "Perception is everything." I think some of us empathize with Joni in many ways - one of the reasons we are here on the list. I've also been surprised and amused lately at how a number of listmembers have told me "I also had Myrtle for a mother" ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:27:37 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: little green... At 12:46 PM 9/18/99 -0700, Kakki wrote: >LL and Siresorrow wrote: > > > >i am very pleased though to see all the different reads on this issue and > > >we'll never know the whole story. and im sure our own stories affect how >we > > >see her story.ss > > > > > > I'm sure that you are correct. I always say, "Perception is everything." > >I think some of us empathize with Joni in many ways - one of the reasons we >are here on the list. I've also been surprised and amused lately at how a >number of listmembers have told me "I also had Myrtle for a mother" ;-) > >Kakki :) Well, I *did!* My mother had much different values than Myrtle does, however, she was still extremely critical and relentlessly difficult. That is, until I moved 350 miles aWAY. And *stayed* away. She caught on, eventually and miraculously changed until I went from being the scapegoat to the apple of her eye. Pretty amusing, in retrospect. At any rate, unfamiliar with the particulars of Joni's personal life, it was her lyrics that grabbed me 30 (did I say 30?? :::thud:::) years ago. I remember feeling, "This is someone who KNOWS something...important." LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 21:23:38 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC gifts of God > So under the tradition, males are circumcised (which does not diminish pleasure) I have not been circumcised. My partner and sevral other men I know. They all sahre one thing in common-anger and astonishment that this mutilation was done to them without their consent. It does diminish sexual enjoyment. Having the glans permantly exposed causes desensitisation. whilst this not prevent pleasure completely, it makes it harder.I once saw a doc which showed circumcision as part of a religious ceremony. Little boys, all dressed in nice little suits, surrounded by adults, had their penises taken out and their foreskins cut off, to oohs and aahs of the adults. I was horrified that such a thing could take place and that it was filmed and that no one thought this was terrible. The circumcision of females is appalling also. bw colin > ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #417 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?