From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #401 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Saturday, September 11 1999 Volume 04 : Number 401 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: What A Country! (NJC) ["P. Henry" ] NJC I Second that Motion [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V4 #397 [catman ] [Fwd: Re: JMDL Digest V4 #397] ["Jennifer L. Nodine" ] Re: Jason/Colin NJC [Jason Maloney ] Re: NJC: Where's the damn water bucket? [Kate Tarasenko ] NJC Another new kid in town [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: Bob, show thyself NJC [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: JONI IN MOVIES/TV [Bounced Message ] Re: Movie soundtracks (was What A Country!) (VLJC) [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V4 #397 [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Kids in college NJC [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Fundraiser update!!!! [suemc16@webtv.net (Susan McNamara)] Re: Strangers ["Jennifer L. Nodine" ] Fw: San Diego Street Scene '99 (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: NJC: Where's the damn water bucket? [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: JONI IN MOVIES/TV [IVPAUL42@aol.com] The Times They Are A ChanginNJC [catman ] List Joke ["Peter Holmstedt" ] Re: List Joke [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: NJC: Where's the damn water bucket? [David Wright ] NJC: more on kids' sexuality [rachel kramer bussel ] Re: NJC kids and sexuality [AzeemAK@aol.com] Jonifest [Thunderthumbs ] Photos ["Kakki" ] Re: Happy to share in your delights. (NJC) [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: List Joke [catman ] Re: JONI IN MOVIES/TV [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: Jonifest njc [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: List Joke ["gene mock" ] Re: List Joke SJC [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Cool Kaleidoscope NJC [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: NJC kids and sexuality [catman ] Re: Photos (NJC) ["Kakki" ] JoniFest 99 Thoughts and feelings (LONG) [Michael Paz Subject: Re: What A Country! (NJC) colin, you make some really excellent points regarding this issue. for example, you mentioned: perhaps not exactly in the way that you meant, but a good example was last year's scandal here in the US regarding the woman teacher and her jr high male lover. as for your choice of words: "difficulty seeing the abuse", I find it interesting that, looking back on my memory of when the original Lolita came out, in the context of many late 50's & early 60's 'hot and steamy' type dramas, virtually no one raised an issue of abuse and virtually everyone bought the publicized image of the adolescent babysitter tart. ie: you're right! I was an adolescent myself at the time and I can easily recall the general attitude toward movies like La Dolce Vita and The Long Hot Summer as well as others... it seems the studios were competing at the time for sexual shock value. (before it became the norm) ...but when Lolita came out it was like a whole new dimension in outrageous. *everybody* was talking about it and, from what I recall, the focus was just as you said, all on the promiscuity of the girl and none on the evil wrought by the man. having worked in the field of psychiatry for many years I have had occasion to counsel many people, abusees and abusers, and it is my opinion there are *many* women around my age who would have had the basic right of deciding what to do about their own sexuality were it not for mr. kubrick (sp?) and, as regards society in general, perhaps the most destructive film ever made... definately in the top 5! pat NP: Black Crow http://members.wbs.net/homepages/b/a/d/badwolff.html Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 10:12:40 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: NJC I Second that Motion Hi all, Just wanted to weigh in with a couple of "thumbs up" seconds on some new records: 1. Meshell Ndegeocello's "Bitter" - this wasn't what I was expecting AT ALL! It's funky in a VERY quiet way...you know who it reminds me of the most? The soul music of Al Green! It's very melodic, very pretty but in a melancholy way. Certainly not like anything else I've heard in a while, would have universal appeal I think, I don't know why anyone would NOT like it...but it's certainly not a "pick-me-up" album with lyrics like: "I remember when you filled my heart with joy Was I blind to the truth just there to fill the space 'Cause now you have no interest in anything I have to say And I have allowed you to make me feel dumb What kind of fool am I that you so easily set me aside" Well, after all, the title is "Bitter".... 2. Richard Thompson, "Mock Tudor": Don sang the praises of this one a while ago, and I've since heard and read good things about it, and boy am I glad I picked it up! It's a GENUINE folk-rock gem! (With emphasis on the Rock) I haven't had time to even begin to digest it lyrically, but with Thompson you know it's going to be strong there...musically and sonically, it sounds great - - his voice has never sounded better, his guitar work is splendid, and the songs are stronger than any of his I've heard. He even "divides" the record into segments like Joni did with STAS. If I had to compare it with something, I'd say it puts me in the mind of Dire Straits "Brothers In Arms", mostly upbeat but quiet at times too. Thompson plays the dulcimer on it as well. Great sounding band! Dave Mattacks does a great job on the drums keeping things hopping, Mitchell Froom plays keyboards, the band is pretty huge, and sounds great! Like with the Meshell, I would recommend this release to anybody. Looks like the latter half of 99 is making up for the weaker first half... Bob NP: Richard Thompson, "Hard on Me" (sounds like a Neil Young rocker!) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 11:47:26 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V4 #397 > i grew up hearing joni almost every other day. my mother loved her > so... my mother ...my mother , she showed me so much in this world that > is wonderful and i'm so happy joni was one of those things ( she swells > up with tears when i sing to her joni songs in my crude way . she smiles > through " free man in paris "... and she cries again during " i don't > know where i stand "). born in 1970, {{{ now 28 }}} > i kind of grew through my formative years as she grew into , through > and to her art (a tree). i loved every reach she made , every change in > her color . what a lady . you are my friends ( i hope thats ok ) > and now you know it . wow. Jess-thanks for this moving post. welcome to this list. The best on the net.bw colin > > > jess. - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 08:25:57 -0400 From: "Jennifer L. Nodine" Subject: [Fwd: Re: JMDL Digest V4 #397] Message-ID: <37DA4A30.A69@snet.net> Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 08:25:20 -0400 From: "Jennifer L. Nodine" Reply-To: jlhall01@snet.net Organization: The Mortgage Finance Corp. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SNET (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mr_lovesaint@webtv.net Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V4 #397 References: <11286-37D9F1D8-17018@postoffice-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jess wrote: > > i grew up hearing joni almost every other day. my mother loved her > so... my mother ...my mother , she showed me so much in this world that > is wonderful and i'm so happy joni was one of those things (clip) born in 1970, {{{ now 28 }}} > i kind of grew through my formative years as she grew into , through > and to her art (a tree). i loved every reach she made , every change in > her color . what a lady . you are my friends ( i hope thats ok ) > and now you know it . wow. > > jess. Welcome Jess! Thanks so much for writing in...I grew up on Joni too (born in 73). My mom and I don't have the best relationship, but Joni is always a common ground for us. I, too, am very grateful to her that she embedded in me the love of Joni's music (and VanGogh paintings, poetry, and all the other stuff that she made me participate in at such a young age). Maybe we can both treat our moms next year by bringing them to Jonifest! - -Jenny from CT ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 12:26:12 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Jason/Colin NJC John van Tiel wrote: > > Jason and Colin, > > May I suggest that you take a short but deep breath, reread one > another's posts once again right from the start, and try and listen > again to one another's words? You both went immensely deep in your > exchanges and were impressive in your own right throughout the whole > discussion. You really were, both of you. But a cup of coffee can do no > harm now. If necessary, I'll provide it to you both. > > Feeling like a Dutch uncle here, > > John van Tiel > > (... and I am serious about this rereading; so much intelligence/insight > on BOTH sides) > (... and I won't make weak Coffee Anan puns) LOL....thanks for the offer. John, and everyone who has said more or less the same thing, you are quite right. Time for this to stop. I have no wish to prolong these exchanges. Apologies for talking up so much extra bandwidth. It must be getting beyond tiresome by now. I am OK with things being left as they are at this point, and I would hope Colin is too. It was never a battle, and there was never supposed to be a winner or loser. His logic and style of debating are obviously at odds with my own, but I belive the two of us have reached some form of acceptence that we are coming from very different angles on this. The only sticking point appears to be my use of "unstable", so I will offer to retract it in the name of peace and goodwill. I have sticking points of my own, but I can live with them and let them be. Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 10:38:45 +0000 From: Kate Tarasenko Subject: Re: NJC: Where's the damn water bucket? Dflahm@aol.com wrote: > > Kate, do I understand you correctly? "I think Rachel is young and naive" > constitutes an attack on her character? DAVID LAHM I already responded to David off-list about this -- I don't think any constructive purpose can be served by keeping this alive on-list. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 16:35:46 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Happy to share in your delights. (NJC) In a message dated 9/10/1999 9:45:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Ashara@aol.com writes: << She said that is always the way they are. They are just miserable people. She enjoyed the music from her backyard, and said it was great! So......tough tubas on the grumpy neighbors...and I say...... SEPTEMBER 2, 2000!!!!!!!!!!!! PLAY ON!!!!!! Hugs, Ashara >> next year (big smile) invite them and everyone else in hearing distance. OR.....find out what they like to hear and we can play a little of that too...... Cat.. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 16:45:10 -0400 From: lisa durfee Subject: Re: NJC I Second that Motion RMuRocks@aol.com wrote: > Hi all, > > Just wanted to weigh in with a couple of "thumbs up" seconds on some new > records: > > 1. Meshell Ndegeocello's "Bitter" - this wasn't what I was expecting AT ALL! > It's funky in a VERY quiet way.. Hey Bob, I was listening to this when your email rolled in. Thanks to Patrick and Michaels suggestions I bought this CD and am completely hooked on it for 2 weeks now.However, I am writing to mention that I also returned the CD to the store once because I thought track 11 Wasted Time, was "broken" as it cuts off so abrubtly.(during the recitaion of the word "broken" By the way). I got my second replacement copy today, alas, still "broken". I finally looked into it on the world wide web. After much searching I found a Meshell forum and found out this is *not* a production error, It is intentional. Thought I'd save you the aggravation of wondering. ANyway, I'll second -or is that THIRD -Bobs recommendation. This recording is awesome. liså D ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 09:40:55 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: NJC Another new kid in town Welcome Jess- You "wowed" me (and everyone else I'm sure). Please continue to share! Bob NP: Richard Thompson, "Sights and Sounds of London Town" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 15:19:32 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Bob, show thyself NJC In a message dated 09/09/99 14:55:54 GMT Daylight Time, cateri@hotmail.com writes: << Someone, and I don't remember if it was someone on this list (if so, my guess is Colin the Catman), or one of my co-workers, sent out an e-mail recently saying that if you put your face up close enough to your computer, you can end up with your own image on the screen. Sort of a techy shroud of Turin. >> It was me wot dun it!! I couldn't claim to have invented it, but I thought it was a brilliant scam. And yes, I did fall for it. At least one lister emailed me to say s/he'd been suckered too. Azeem in London NP: Jane Siberry - Hain't it Funny (what a fabulous song - and it has a punchline!). And she's coming to London in November - Hallelujah! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 14:50:18 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: JONI IN MOVIES/TV From: mr_lovesaint@webtv.net Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 13:14:38 -0400 (EDT) Hey... i dont know if this counts , but in a movie called " the strawberry statement" ( about the student take over of columbia ) , that has "circle game" over the titles and at the end over the credits. However , singing it is buffy-saint marie. Anybody heard of this flick? jess ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 15:19:29 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Movie soundtracks (was What A Country!) (VLJC) In a message dated 09/09/99 09:43:55 GMT Daylight Time, pglass@tasyo.kssp.upd.edu.ph writes: << np: Mathilde Santing's "Love of a Common Man" >> Another Mathilde Santing fan - praise be! I've just been listening to her wonderful rendition of "I Had a King", whilst doing a tape for the UK mini-joni-festers... Azeem NP: Caroline Lavelle's version of "A Case of You" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 17:09:46 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V4 #397 In a message dated 9/11/1999 4:18:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mr_lovesaint@webtv.net writes: << i kind of grew through my formative years as she grew into , through and to her art (a tree). i loved every reach she made , every change in her color . what a lady . you are my friends ( i hope thats ok ) and now you know it . wow. jess. >> You have a very wonderful and insightful mother. Welcome out of lurkdonville and join in whenever! YEA! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 17:16:45 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Kids in college NJC - --part1_40581f81.250c20bd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/11/1999 7:28:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, merwyn@mindspring.com writes: << Dear Dad, $chool i$ really great. I am making lot$ of friend$ and $tudying very hard. With all my $tuff, I $imply can`t think of anything I need, $o if you would like, you can ju$t $end me a card, a$ I would love to hear from you. Love, Your $on The Reply: ---------- Dear Son, I kNOw that astroNOmy, ecoNOmics, and oceaNOgraphy are eNOugh to keep even an hoNOr student busy. Do NOt forget that the pursuit of kNOwledge is a NOble task, and you can never study eNOugh. Love, Dad >> - --part1_40581f81.250c20bd_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb03.mx.aol.com (rly-zb03.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.3]) by air-zb04.mail.aol.com (v60.28) with ESMTP; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 07:28:01 -0400 Received: from indigo.propagation.net (indigo.propagation.net [216.221.160.15]) by rly-zb03.mx.aol.com (v60.28) with ESMTP; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 07:27:53 -0400 Received: (from mail@localhost) by indigo.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA32494 for CaTGirl627@aol.com; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 06:27:48 -0500 Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.74]) by indigo.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA03368 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 05:01:37 -0500 Received: from pavilion (user-38ldei9.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.186.73]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA28033 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 06:01:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990911055930.0095d280@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: merwyn@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 06:00:03 -0700 To: rainbows@technultant.com X-Loop: one From: Merwyn Subject: Saturday's Smiley Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Dad, $chool i$ really great. I am making lot$ of friend$ and $tudying very hard. With all my $tuff, I $imply can`t think of anything I need, $o if you would like, you can ju$t $end me a card, a$ I would love to hear from you. Love, Your $on The Reply: - ---------- Dear Son, I kNOw that astroNOmy, ecoNOmics, and oceaNOgraphy are eNOugh to keep even an hoNOr student busy. Do NOt forget that the pursuit of kNOwledge is a NOble task, and you can never study eNOugh. Love, Dad Thanks to Clint for today's "Smiley" If you have missed the daily "Smiley's" or the "Thoughts for Today" you may read them at http://merwynhome.mindspring.com To SUBSCRIBE send E-Mail to merwynlist@technultant.com To UNSUBSCRIBE send E-Mail to merwyn@technultant.com - --part1_40581f81.250c20bd_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 17:18:05 -0400 (EDT) From: suemc16@webtv.net (Susan McNamara) Subject: Re: Fundraiser update!!!! Ashara, thanks a million for doing such a great job with this fundraiser!! The generosity of this list is amazing and I'm very happy for Wally who deserves every penny and more. I just wanted to remind people that I still have A Day at the Garden photos on sale and I'm willing to send 50% of the proceeds from these photos to Wally to help the site. Go to the Joni Mitchell Home Page's Shop section and select the Day At the Garden photos from 8/15/98. www.jonimitchell.com/ Take care, Sue you can also reach me at my cornell address: sem8@cornell.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 08:09:02 -0400 From: "Jennifer L. Nodine" Subject: Re: Strangers Wow, Bob, thanks for pointing that out. I can definately identify with both feelings. How strange it is that our perception can provide us with two totally different experiences! Jenny from CT Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com wrote: > > Anne quoted this line from Hejira: > > "Still sometimes the slightest touch of a stranger can set up trembling in > my bones", > > And it reminded me of Joni's other "stranger" line from "Down to You": > "You brush against a stranger and you both apologize" > > And it once again made me marvel at Joni's songwriting skills because she > describes the same thing, brushing up against a stranger, but implies two > totally different emotions....opposites almost. And it's all the more > powerful because it's something we've all experienced, a stranger's touch > being either thrilling or chilling. > > Bob > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > The information transmitted is intended only for the person or > entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential > and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended > recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any > use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, > reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message > is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact > the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any > views expressed in this message are those of the individual > sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the > company. > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 14:05:57 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Fw: San Diego Street Scene '99 (NJC) Oh S*@t! I just got this in from the CSN list. Argh! Now I know why the old boyfriend from San Diego was trying to reach me this week! Mayall, Gilberto Gil, Bobby Caldwell, Sweetwater(!).... Kakki, racing to San Diego > Hey all, just an FYI. This weekend Street Scene '99 is going on in San > Diego. They close off 16 city blocks, and put up 7 stages, of continuos > music. Over 100 bands. There is a ton of variety here from zydeco > (Buckwheat, Cheneir, BeauSolei) Blues( Mayall, Robillard, Hammond, Fab > Thunderbirds) jazz ( Turrentine, Franks, Pike, Caldwell, Gato Barbieri), > rock ( X, Violent Femmes, Steve Miller, Chris Isaac, Dave Alvin), R&B > (Commodores, Dazz Band, Ray Charles), reggae (Steel Pulse, Morgan Heritage, > Third World), World Beat (Gilberto Gil, Femi Kuti, Olodom, Bloque) to name > just a few! Even Sweetwater are playing! > I'm fortunate to be involved in the event management, so I had a great > time last night, and am heading out to "work" now. Tomorrow is the final > day. > For further info, check out: http://www.street-scene.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 12:17:48 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC: Where's the damn water bucket? Kate, do I understand you correctly? "I think Rachel is young and naive" constitutes an attack on her character? DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 18:27:05 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: JONI IN MOVIES/TV In a message dated 9/11/99 5:10:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, les@jmdl.com writes: << From: mr_lovesaint@webtv.net Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 13:14:38 -0400 (EDT) Hey... I dont know if this counts, but in a movie called " the strawberry statement" ( about the student take over of columbia ) , that has "circle game" over the titles and at the end over the credits. However , singing it is buffy-saint marie. Anybody heard of this flick? jess >> Yes, the "Strawberry Statement" is the movie from the book about the student uprising at San Francisco State College in 1967 or 1968, not Columbia. Kim Darby was the love interest of the lead actor, who I do not remember. S.I. Hayakawa was the president or chancellor of San Francisco St. at the time and made his reputation for his firm stance against the students. The film also featured the music of Neil Young "The Loner", Thunderclap Newman "Something in the Air" and others. I have a copy of it on videotape somewhere. The most memorable lines from the book was a passage in which the author compares the Vietcong to the cockroaches that live in his apartment. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 23:43:42 +0100 From: catman Subject: The Times They Are A ChanginNJC Reading my weekly OUR DOGS, I was pleasantly surprised to read an announcement of the the forthcoming wedding of Mr Paul Stanton to his policeman partner, who is to marry in full policemans regalia. This is going to be a big wedding as Mr Stanton is well known the world over for his Tintavon Lhasa Apso(at least all over the dog wordl!) The annoucement ends by complimenting Sweden for it's humanity. Perhaps it won't be long before the USA and UK grows up too. - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 00:54:03 +0200 From: "Peter Holmstedt" Subject: List Joke Question: How many list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? Answer: 1,343 - --1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that the light bulb has been changed; - --14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently; - --7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs; - --27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs; - --53 to flame the spell checkers; - --41 to correct spelling/grammar flames; - --6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb" and another 6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive; - --156 to write to the list administrator about the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mail list; - --109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this email exchange to litebulb-l; - --203 to demand that cross posting to grammar-l, spelling-l and illuminati-l about changing light bulbs be stopped; - --111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts *are* relevant to this mail list; - --306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty; - --27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs; - --14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly and to post the corrected URLs; - --3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list; - --33 to link all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and footers and then add "Me too"; - --12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy; - --19 to quote the "Me too's" to say "Me three"; - --4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ; - --44 to ask what is "FAQ"; - --4 to say "didn t we go through this already a short time ago on Usenet?" - --143 to ask "what's Usenet?" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 18:56:55 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: List Joke In a message dated 9/11/99 6:51:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, peter.holmstedt@telia.com writes: << Question: How many list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? Answer: 1,343 >> 1,344. You forgot to mention the one who points out that this so-called joke was sent to this list, and probably every other list in Internet existence, at least once before and was barely funny the first time. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 19:04:57 -0400 (EDT) From: David Wright Subject: Re: NJC: Where's the damn water bucket? On Sat, 11 Sep 1999 Dflahm@aol.com wrote: > "I think Rachel is young and naive" constitutes an attack on her > character? DAVID LAHM Suggesting that Rachel not be taken seriously because of her age, as SireSorrow did, deserves the response it got. You can argue whether it's a character attack or not, but it's I think it's equally offensive -- an attack on somebody's worth as a person. - --David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 20:09:07 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: yaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy (NJC) yipeeeeeeeeeeeee! downtime is over!!!! one less withdrawal to cope with! wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 19:08:13 -0400 (EDT) From: David Wright Subject: Re: List Joke (NJC) On Sat, 11 Sep 1999 IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > < Answer: 1,343 >> > > 1,344. You forgot to mention the one who points out that this so-called joke > was sent to this list, and probably every other list in Internet existence, > at least once before and was barely funny the first time. That would be you, right, Paul? ;) 1,345 must be the one who points out that the joke wasn't labeled NJC. - --David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 19:25:17 -0400 (EDT) From: rachel kramer bussel Subject: NJC: more on kids' sexuality I thought I was done with this topic, but I guess not. I don't know if I've managed to read all the subsequent posts, but I did get most of them. I wanted to clarify what I was discussing - I think I was focusing more on the right of certain teenagers to their own sexuality, not on adults' rights to be sexual with teenagers, though maybe that's one and the same if I'm saying I don't have a problem with certain adult/teenager sexual relationships. And ss, I never said how I think a parent should view their child's sexuality, because I don't really think children develop their sexual identity *for* their parents. What person A wants for their kid may not be what the kid wants for themselves, and I think that every person has the right to make their own choices. And not every instance of an adult and child have sex together results in a conviction, or even a prosecution, or even any legal action - I think it works more as a threat, which would tend to discourage adults from entering sexual relationships with teenagers. This writer Tristan Taormino made some really interesting comments about this issue - she said that we have to accept that for *some people*, having sex at an early age is a positive experience. There ARE people who had sexual relationships at young ages with older people and now still view them as positive. Just because you think that this is wrong, you can't take away from those people their view of it, and I don't see why one would want to. I am not trying to say that all teenagers should have sex, and I thought I made it abundantly clear that I think *some* young people, at various ages, are mature enough to be sexually active, and I think that decision should be made *by them*, and yes, they should ideally have input from parents/teachers/friends/etc., but it is still THEIR decision. I think that we each may disapprove of other's choice in sexual partners/relationships, but I don't see where it's my right to try to tell other people, be they young or old, how to live their lives or who/when/how to have sex. I think we can try to educate people and give them advice, especially if we are their parents/friends/family/etc., but that is different than telling someone you know what is best for them. I will post the URL later, because I have to go now and can't find it, but this woman Heather Corinna runs a site called Pink Slip which is for girls, primarily 14-18, to explore issues about their bodies, sexuality, growing up, etc., and I think it's very useful and interesting. And for the record, people don't need to defend my honor or whatever, I so don't care if someone thinks I'm young and naive. I believe I've spoken pretty generally here, I am not saying that YOUR CHILD should be out having sex with a 40-year-old or something, and I'm sorry if some people have taken what I've said overly personally, but I still think I'm right, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion about this and any other issue. - -- Rachel ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 20:01:01 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC kids and sexuality In a message dated 11/09/99 03:53:28 GMT Daylight Time, tncturley@worldnet.att.net writes: << I share Colin's opinion 100 percent--it is up to adults to act responsibly no matter how the child behaves or what he or she appears to or explicitly "asks for." I am very comfortable drawing a hard line in this department. I can't imagine what harm will befall a twelve year old by NOT having sex with an adult, while the opposite invites the possibilty of immeasureable heartache and damage. >> This seems very sensible and completely incontrovertible to me, notwithstanding the question - on which it is impossible to draw the line - of how do you define a child. The age of consent varies from country to country, and I gather from state to state in the US. A liaison that would be lawful here, for example between a 21-year-old male and a 16-year-old female, would be illegal elsewhere, and possibly be regarded as statutory rape. What this tells me is that there are degrees of culpability around this issue, and it is one area where it is legitimate to examine the attitudes and conduct of the people involved. The question of where you draw the line, however, must not be seen or used as a get-out clause for abusers. I have seen adult paedophiles interviewed on television here, talking in very "reasonable" sounding tones about their "loving relationship" with very young children (sometimes under-tens), describing how it's "fully consensual". As someone else has already pointed out, to believe that the fact that the child doesn't say no makes the "relationship" consensual is the biggest lie of the paedophile. The child may acquiesce for many reasons, for example because of threats (even if they are veiled) from the abuser, out of shame, out of fear of the consequences of telling their parents (after all, the vast majority of child abusers are already known to the family), because they simply don't understand what is happening; or because they respond to the attention and apparent kindness of the abuser. From what I have read, and, I'm sorry to say, from my own very hazy recollections of being abused by a soldier in Pakistan when I was about six, this is part of their pattern: to befriend a child who seems friendly, or lonely, or needy in some other way, and show them a lot of attention. The child may then respond gratefully to this seeming affection, and come to like and trust the abuser. The abuser then progresses to sexually abusing the child, and convinces himself (and it is mostly men, although I realise there are female abusers) that the child "led him on". It is this betrayal of trust that I personally find the most sickening and soul-destroying. It truly fucks up the child's world view, and leaves him or her with any number of emotional problems. Speaking for myself, I believe that what happened to me has shaped my personality, in ways too numerous to mention. And I also believe that - in many ways - I'm lucky. For one thing, I haven't perpetuated the cycle of abuse, and for another, I've managed to get some constructive help in a way that hasn't got me into a victim way of thinking, but has enabled me to move on. If anybody out there thinks therapy is a waste of time and money (and I know some do), you'll have a hell of a job convincing me of that. I guess I've wandered off the beaten track here. I guess where I came in is on the question of consent: if an adult says of a child "s/he led me on", s/he is most likely a deluded and dangerous person who needs treatment and (possibly) incarceration. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 20:57:41 -0400 From: Thunderthumbs Subject: Jonifest It was nice to hear the accounts of the Jonifest. I wish I could have gone. Even if I had "signed up" to go, car problems kept me from going anywhere that weekend, and I wouldn't have been able to make it. Maybe next time for me... Passion Play is now playing on the CD player. Makes me think about the "what ifs" if Joni made an album with Michael Hedges. I think the two would be such a nice match. Then you add Michael Manring on the Bass, and WOW, what a neat sound it could be. Rambling on, and thinking out loud... -Brad ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 17:43:50 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Photos Hi Les, I noticed that Pearl has added a lot of photos similiar to mine (I should have consulted with her before sending my own out!) so if you could pleae just put up the two photos at Atty Mays for me. Thanks so much. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 21:27:14 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Happy to share in your delights. (NJC) "Find out what they like to hear and we can play a little of that too." Ooh, CaTGirl, how I hope you don't one day regret those generous words. LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 02:28:54 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: List Joke And we also forgot the one member of the list who has no sense of humour and believes everyone shares his taste and sense of propriety. IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/11/99 6:51:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > peter.holmstedt@telia.com writes: > > << > Question: How many list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? > Answer: 1,343 >> > > 1,344. You forgot to mention the one who points out that this so-called joke > was sent to this list, and probably every other list in Internet existence, > at least once before and was barely funny the first time. - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 21:30:02 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: JONI IN MOVIES/TV Saw it when it came out; it wasn't all that memorable. Did it star Bruce Davidson (sp?), later to be immortal thanks to WILLARD & BEN? LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 21:36:10 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Jonifest njc In a message dated 9/11/1999 9:02:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ddietz@erols.com writes: << Passion Play is now playing on the CD player. Makes me think about the "what ifs" if Joni made an album with Michael Hedges. I think the two would be such a nice match. Then you add Michael Manring on the Bass, and WOW, what a neat sound it could be. Rambling on, and thinking out loud... -Brad Brad! That would have been spectacular Michael and Joni. He had just played in Philly and I had missed him. I was pissed. And then later to find out that he died really made me sad. He was such an incredible guitarist. I think I have every one of his CD's. He is sorely missed! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 18:51:05 -0700 From: "gene mock" Subject: Re: List Joke Catman, Amen to that! Hope all is well with you. - ----- Original Message ----- From: catman To: Sent: Saturday, September 11, 1999 6:28 PM Subject: Re: List Joke > And we also forgot the one member of the list who has no sense of humour and > believes everyone shares his taste and sense of propriety. > > IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 9/11/99 6:51:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > peter.holmstedt@telia.com writes: > > > > << > > Question: How many list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? > > Answer: 1,343 >> > > > > 1,344. You forgot to mention the one who points out that this so-called joke > > was sent to this list, and probably every other list in Internet existence, > > at least once before and was barely funny the first time. > > > > -- > "It is better to be hated for what you are > than to be loved for what you are not." > TANTRA'S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS > http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 21:48:32 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: List Joke SJC In a message dated 9/11/99 9:31:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: << And we also forgot the one member of the list who has no sense of humour and believes everyone shares his taste and sense of propriety. >> It is unfair to say anyone has "no" sense of humor as if the person were blind and had "no" sense of sight. Some people have a more- or less-refined sense than others, and still others are easily bored by repitition or lack of creativity, not to mention the omission of NJC. When Catman posted a similar kind of list some time ago, it was obvious that HE had put some effort into writing or rewriting it to make it interesting to his audience -- the list. Others merely pass stuff along like they're shoveling so much manure out to the Internet; it's no wonder that's what the Internet seems to have the most of so far. How interesting would Joni's impending album of standards be if she was merely doing again arrangements that numerous others have done, instead of putting her own mark on each one? We might buy it, but I doubt many others would. That's Roger Whittaker territory. He's got a nice voice, but... To digress further, that has long been the knock on Gary Puckett. He had a better voice than 98 percent of the rock singers who made it big, but even his own people eventually became critical of his song selection and arrangements. Give me Bruce Springsteen and Joni any day. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 21:52:04 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Cool Kaleidoscope NJC check this out! "http://www.ben2.ucla.edu/~permadi/java/spaint/spaint.html" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 03:01:30 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC kids and sexuality AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/09/99 03:53:28 GMT Daylight Time, > tncturley@worldnet.att.net writes: > > << I > share Colin's opinion 100 percent--it is up to adults to act responsibly > no matter how the child behaves or what he or she appears to or > explicitly "asks for." I am very comfortable drawing a hard line in > this department. I can't imagine what harm will befall a twelve year > old by NOT having sex with an adult, while the opposite invites the > possibilty of immeasureable heartache and damage. >> > > This seems very sensible and completely incontrovertible to me, > notwithstanding the question - on which it is impossible to draw the line - > of how do you define a child. The age of consent varies from country to > country, and I gather from state to state in the US. A liaison that would be > lawful here, for example between a 21-year-old male and a 16-year-old female, > would be illegal elsewhere, and possibly be regarded as statutory rape. What > this tells me is that there are degrees of culpability around this issue, and > it is one area where it is legitimate to examine the attitudes and conduct of > the people involved. I think the difference in age between the two parties is of importance. As far as I understand it, the age of consent in The Netherlands is 12 BUT the other partner must be no more than 3 yrs older or something like that.This to me seems sensible(maybe not the 12 yrs bit but the age difference). > > > The question of where you draw the line, however, must not be seen or used as > a get-out clause for abusers. I have seen adult paedophiles interviewed on > television here, talking in very "reasonable" sounding tones about their > "loving relationship" with very young children (sometimes under-tens), > describing how it's "fully consensual". As someone else has already pointed > out, to believe that the fact that the child doesn't say no makes the > "relationship" consensual is the biggest lie of the paedophile. The child > may acquiesce for many reasons, for example because of threats (even if they > are veiled) from the abuser, out of shame, out of fear of the consequences of > telling their parents (after all, the vast majority of child abusers are > already known to the family) and many are in fact their parents anyway > , because they simply don't understand what is > happening; or because they respond to the attention and apparent kindness of > the abuser. From what I have read, and, I'm sorry to say, from my own very > hazy recollections of being abused by a soldier in Pakistan when I was about > six, this is part of their pattern: to befriend a child who seems friendly, > or lonely, or needy in some other way, and show them a lot of attention. The > child may then respond gratefully to this seeming affection, and come to like > and trust the abuser. Abusers have a sixth sense which enables them to pick on the child who is already vulnerable and needy because the child is either already being abused or is neglected. The abuse need not tbe sexual. oPhysical and emotional abuse being jsut as devastating, and in my opinion, more so. > The abuser then progresses to sexually abusing the > child, and convinces himself (and it is mostly men, although I realise there > are female abusers) The incdience of female sexual abuse is growing all the time as people begin to get rid of their ideas that a 'woma wouldn't' and therfore people are reporting it more often. the majority of children under the age of 4 who are taken to hopsital because of abuse have been abused by their mothers. Abuse covers many things not just sexual. Also, sexual abuse by women is often not physically harmfull, tho is just as damaging, and therfore not so easy to see. it is also often done under the guise of 'loving motherly attention' like at bed/bath time. > that the child "led him on". It is this betrayal of > trust that I personally find the most sickening and soul-destroying. It > truly fucks up the child's world view, and leaves him or her with any number > of emotional problems. I would agree with you fully here. Although i have come to enjoy my life and amd blessed with much love in it and a measure of peace, trust is something I have not regained. People are fallible. i have learned that i can only trust myself and my abilty to cope with whatever comes my way. as a result, much fear has gone from my life because I am not at the mercy of others any longer. > > > Speaking for myself, I believe that what happened to me has shaped my > personality, in ways too numerous to mention. And I also believe that - in > many ways - I'm lucky. We are all, regardless of experience, shaped by our experience. > For one thing, I haven't perpetuated the cycle of > abuse, This is the thing I am most grateful for. I didn't continue the pattern. > and for another, I've managed to get some constructive help in a way > that hasn't got me into a victim way of thinking, but has enabled me to move > on. I am glad to hear this. So many people don't get the chance. Still others deny they are damaged. others believe the world is the cause of all their pain. It was good for me to figure out that I was not responsible for the abuse but I was responsible for healing my wounds. The abusers ceertainly weren't going to and couldn't anyway. For some people it's a bit like having your legs broken and sitting there complaining about the person who did it, for 20 years, hlist their legs get worse and twisted, instead of accepting the hurt and getting the legs fixed. > If anybody out there thinks therapy is a waste of time and money (and I > know some do), you'll have a hell of a job convincing me of that. here here! Most of the people I have met who think this way, I have thought needed it! Denial does strange things to people.Therapy is no big deal really. Nothing magic happens. for me it was 5 years of being listened to and accepted and loved. i did the work, the reading, the understanding. Roger just helped to clarify things and encourage but most of all he accepted me and thru his acceptence gave me back my diginity and my life. he also NEVER EVER told me my feelings were wrong or bad. He never pushed forgiveness. Forgiveness is something that happens it cannot be decided upon. > > > I guess I've wandered off the beaten track here. I guess where I came in is > on the question of consent: if an adult says of a child "s/he led me on", > s/he is most likely a deluded and dangerous person who needs treatment unfortuantely treatmetn doesn't hold much hope. I am sure there are some who could change but it appears most are too steeped in denial. > and > (possibly) incarceration. I hate to say this and it took a long time to come to this(being a liberal minded person!), but I have come to the conclusion that peodophiles need to be locked up and for life. the lives of children are far too valuable to take the risk of them reoffending. However, i feel that they should still be treated with love and dignity and kept well. thank you for sharing azeem. > > > Azeem in London - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 18:42:47 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Photos (NJC) Oops, sorry everyone! Eek, my first private email sent to the list my mistake. I guess I've been christened (blush) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 21:14:18 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: JoniFest 99 Thoughts and feelings (LONG) Hello Festers and Listers- I am finally catching up with myself and have started catching up on the digests. I am so overcome with emotion reading everyones take on the weekend. Reading Marian's post I was screaming laughing one minute about her hiding the guitar under the bed and elephant tears rolling with her accounts of me playing and how that made her feel. NP-Terry Playing Woman of Heart and Mind at the Fest I am going to jump all over the place like I usually do cause I think everyone has heard great time lines and besides I am ElsmartassO and I can. When Terry started playing I was on stage and singing and playing along, but then I moved out to the crowd and sat next to Bern. When she played Woman of Heart and Mind I just lost it. It was so beautiful and I just welled up with emotion. At that moment so many thought came over me and most of them were feelings of gratitude to Joni, Les, Ashara, Wally, and everyone else that made the whole thing possible. Being able to share this music and all music with so many wonderful people is just the best thing in my life now (besides the family that is). When I read other folks posts on the way they were feeling, I have to say a big ME TOO on so many of them. It is an indescribably delicious feeling to know that you have touched someone through music and so many of you have made me feel SO special and I am truly grateful. NP-John Singing in Dutch and Roberto playing piano (and piercing my heart) John was an amazing surprise that I was not expecting, but enjoyed so much. Thank you for the talks and the drinks and the smokes and I pray that I be allowed to visit you in your country and have a six hour meal with you and talk and sing and play again. I also want to extend the invitation to you, to come to New Orleans and see how us smartasscoonassO's do it. It was so lovely to see and hear Roberto playing and Friday night when he was learning John's song, he did it with such grace and ease. Vewy much like my guru Marian who figured out Dreamland whilst I had a cup of tea and a bagel. That was one of the highest points I reached being able to play that one with you and the gang on stage. ...said the apple to the orange all I want is you to come close to me and kiss me to the core then you might know me like no other orange has ever done before... Did someone say Kakki had only one martini??? That can't be the same Kakki I know. I fixed her at least two. OH I KNOW!~= you meant at one time, right? I am listening to the tapes and am also up to my set which is a scary thing for me cause I am always my own worst critic (or best whichever way you look at it) I have discovered the first song I have is Just Like This Train so I missed my first tune and only the first verse of Song For Sharon. The first verse of Chinese Cafe is missing. (Les did you get it?) Also the first half of Night in the City is cut off in Terry's set on my tape. I also am missing Ashara, Brian, and WallyK. Somebody PLEASE tell me we have all of these stellar performances!!! NEXT YEAR CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A FULL TIME SOUND PERSON AND TAPE ENGINEER? That way the rest of us can just play and enjoy. We can even try to multi-track it. Hell I have adats, what's a few more bags to bring. Especially since I have done the shrimp for the last time :-}. Another one of the extreme highs for me this year was to hear a tape sent to me, by my wicked step brother Marcel. WOW! What an amazing version of Cactus Tree and For Free. The whole tape is fantastically done and all by the maestro himself. He has been talking to me privately about doing a musical celebration in SF. I am getting really excited about the possibilities of this adventure. I would like to thank Sahara's neighbours for pounding that infernal hammer during everyones set but mine. Assholes! I am inviting New Orleans resident Trent Reznor to rehearse his band at Ashara's backside neighbours for a whole week. Of course we will transplant Ashara safely to New Orleans to eat some "Mutilated Broccoli Soup" and of course the ever popular "Road Kill Mushroom Pancakes". Bob was so much fun to have around and I feel like I have known him for years, which is kinda the way it is with alot of the folks there. Now when I read his post I can just taste the grits in his voice. You need to hang with us longer next time Bob and go on the extended sojourn to points north of Topsfield. And oh by the way Bob, the consensus seems to be that you are VERY butch and apparently quite good looking. Frankly I am attracted to your inner beauty and of course your great tastes in music. Continuing listening to the tapes I am playing Hejira and I see why I got lost the first time. Brian was sending chills up my spine with some of those really tasty licks. (that might have been too graphic a visual even for myself). Ashara for someone that didn't know Cherokee Louise, you did a damn fine job girl. And I am really glad YOU did Two Grey Rooms. NP-Marian-All Along The Watchtower at Atty Mays Fast forward to Atty. Mays------- Wow I love this place and this woman. How many other lunatics (besides Ashara that is) that would open up her place of business (or home) to a caravan like ours. I propose we invite her next year to be part of the official fest, even thought she is still not a list member YET (Show of hands please). I even saw the ghosts again this year in daylight and Pearl has the proof in the floppy. I appreciate everybody coming down to check the place out and strongly encourage you to help close down the place next year. Why you ask because it's so much fun just ask anyone. It was really sad when everyone had to start going to the airport. As usual Kakki and I were the last ones out of there and of course made another friend of spirit (and spirits) Susan the cocktail waitress, who was singing along with us the whole day and night. I am sure she felt like it was carrying water to the elephants when I got started on the Mount Gay Rum. My throat was really gone by this time as I am sure the tapes will verify, but I did get a second wind sometime later that night. By the way Patrick the bartender asked me for your phone #, but regretfully you have never given it to me. (Just another reason for us to have a master Joni List Data Base for quick reference) NP-Song For Sharon-Me at Atty May's (this was a pretty good take and what a wonderful beautiful and diverse audience) I guess I better continue later as this is getting rather breathy. Love to you all, Michael NP-Yvette En Ingles-Marian at Atty.'s WOW WOW WOW!!! Truly a little bit of instant bliss ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #401 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! 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