From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #375 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Saturday, August 28 1999 Volume 04 : Number 375 The Laborday JoniFest is happening this fall! For information: send a message to Join the mailing list at: ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Joni Distractions ...! ["Debby Magill" ] Re: NJC: Coltrane vs. SNL [Thunderthumbs ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 00:57:46 -0400 From: "Debby Magill" Subject: Joni Distractions ...! Hi Bob! (and to all you listers!) Thanks for sending me all of that abbreviation info! That helped a lot. I just wanted to say that I loved and identified with your comment about "Black Crow" and what it did to you. I can be ANYWHERE and if a Joni song comes on (even in the grocery store or the middle of a conversation), I lose ALL focus on everything but my need to listen to Joni and sing every lyric with her! It gets kind of rude to those who are not Jonitized! It's a shame ... they don't know what there missing. "Coyote" and "Black Crow" are two of my favorites. Thanks for reminding me and I'm going to go listen to Hejira now. I'm sorry to hear that you're leaving the Sunday School :~( What a great way to learn! Ciao for now ~ Debby of Mad Beach debbyis@prodigy.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 02:37:10 -0400 From: Thunderthumbs Subject: Re: NJC: Coltrane vs. SNL Kate, I play trumpet among other things, and I find Mile's Davis' trumpet playing to be often over-rated as well. Compositionally, and songwise, he has made great contributions to Jazz. I find his technical ability on the instrument leaves something to be desired for all the greatness that has been bestowed upon him. On his "Kind of Blue album" I hear lots of "missed notes" that would be hard to convice me would be a function of "artistic liscense". All of this would be silly splitting of the hairs, except for the fact that many people can only offer positive assesments of the vaunted "Jazz greats", while seemingly taking no effort to be critical where needed as if the could do no wrong. It is so easy in a conversation to agree and say "Oh yeah, Coltrane, Davis, Pastorius, Hendrix- they're all great", throwing out key names of figures in the 20th century pop and jazz movements. Nobody is contesting the impact of their presence on music. However, it is a lot harder to be (negatively) critical of those artists (and possibly prove your theories), especially in this day and age when the "Genius" status that is seemingly automatically applied to any of those who are no longer with us- Coltrane, Davis, Pastorius, Hendrix, Cobain, etc... It was as if to make a critcal comment or assesment of that person's work or questioning their status would be akin to spitting on their grave. Not all they do is gold- dead or alive. It has been my experience that few people take this approach in assesment of an artist. I have never been one of those aforementioned people. Take for example Mr. Jaco Pastorius- the "holy grail of bassdom". Yes, he came out with his self titled album of 1976- a brilliant landmark album by all accounts. Then you have Jaco playing with Weather Report through some of their finest years, and Jaco himself adding some of their finer compositions. However, after 1981-83 and another few (admittedly fine) solo albums, he self destructs with drugs and mental instability and from the period of 83 to almost the end of his life finds him repeating his past glories like a 60's rock band trying to play on old tried and true themes and sounds, playing their greatest hits instead of moving ever forward with the same inventiveness that sparked their earlier careers. For all his inventiveness in his early career, Jaco became somewhat of a parody of himself. After 1983, one rarely hears, even in his own "new" compositions him grow as a player and/or a composer. Yes there is a drug element to add in here, but I'll adress that later if needed. As I've found- if you can play the 1976 to 1983 Pastorius, you already know the rest. The same licks, phrases, and styles occur, and not only occur, but occur (often obviously) verbatim from other compositions of earlier days. It was only in October-Novemeber of 1986 did Jaco make a sucessful try to break his own self created mold, on an album called "Jazz Street" by playing with a drum machine- the first and only time you'll hear this. Even still, Jaco's playing and compositions didn't have the harmonic complexity and playing challenges that he once offered with every composition of the earlier days. Jaco is one of my favorite musicians, as a bassist myself, he has changed my life like few other people ever have, or ever will. Nevertheless, he, nor any other musician will get the "get out of jail free" card from me, avoiding critical assesment from me simply because I play that instrument. In fact, I maintain that it is because I'm able to critically assess another's ability, will make me better, and/or knowledgeable about my own playing and development as a musician. Makes you wonder what I'd say about a musician I really didn't care for, huh? ;) No flames intended. Just discussion. -Brad Dietz Kate Tarasenko wrote: > > Re my earlier > "Comment: Thunderthumbs wrote re SNL's saxophony: > > > "Coltrane eat your heart out." > TT: Trust me when I tell you that all those sax-boys wouldn't > find themselves worthy to shine Trane's shoes, may he RIP." > > Thunderthumbs responded: > "That you like 'Trane better that the SNL guy is an opinion, just as > when I say that I find some (but not all) of Coltrane's solos sound like > noise, or someone wiggling their fingers all over the keys. Fair enough? > > Brad/TT: Abso-tively! But treading on Trane is stomping on holy > ground, as far as my sax-playing friends and I are concerned. Merely > wanted to voice my own opinion that Trane has always been in a class by > himself, just like Miles for trumpet fans, et al. > > Secure those fire extinguishers, people! > > Kate in CO ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #375 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?