From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #367 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Wednesday, August 25 1999 Volume 04 : Number 367 The Laborday JoniFest is happening this fall! For information: send a message to Join the mailing list at: ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Dar Williams (njc) [Terri Forte ] Re: Re: favourite non-joni musicians (NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Joni in the studio was Re: for jmdl guitarists (HOSL) ["Mark or Travi] [Fwd: Re: New Releases] [Thunderthumbs ] Re: Comments on Lakota njc [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: favourite non-joni musicians (NJC) [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Opening tracks njc [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Re OZ speak/US speak NJC [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Re OZ speak/US speak NJC [waytoblu@mindspring.com] Re: Alternative Tunings (NJC) [Bolvangar@aol.com] Martinis (NJC) [Michael Paz ] Re OZ speak/US speak NJC ["Takats, Angela" ] 8/15 LA Times JM Mention [Lindsay Moon ] Re: Troubling '60s Non-Flashbacks (VLJC) ["P. Henry" ] Catgirl at the Philly Folk Fest singing Joni NJC [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Joni in the studio was Re: for jmdl guitarists (HOSL) ["Kakki" Subject: Dar Williams (njc) Hi. I recently discovered the Dar Williams cd "Mortal City" and I love it. Any recommendations on a next cd of hers to buy? Thanks Terri in SLC ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:54:33 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Re: favourite non-joni musicians (NJC) > > Jason Maloney wrote: > > << of songs such as I Feel The Earth Move, It's Too Late, You Make > Me Feel Like A Natural Woman, and You've Got A Friend.>>> > > Just picking a nit: these renditions are not technically "original" > versions, as most (actually I think all) had previously been > recorded by other artists, and were thus widely known. In fact, > wasn't part of the marketing around this release centered around > "songwriter singing her songs made famous by others" hype? > > --Michael I don't remember which came first, the Tapestry album or JT's version of 'You've Got a Friend'. But as far as the other songs on Tapestry are concerned I don't think any of them were recorded before besides 'Natural Woman' and 'Will You Love Me Tomorrow'. I remember buying the single of 'It's Too Late' and later the Tapestry album. It was kind of an important purchase for me because up to that point in time my record collection consisted mostly of show tunes, The Fifth Dimension, Dionne Warwick & Carpenters. Carole King was the first singer/songwriter of any weight that I became interested in. She opened my tightly closed little mind far enough to let Carly Simon slip in and eventually Joni and well - the rest is history, so to speak. Eventually I went places I never expected to go and I'm glad of it. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 18:26:34 -0700 From: Don Sloan Subject: Joni in the studio was Re: for jmdl guitarists (HOSL) speaking of HOSL, phyliss wrote: > That album is totally Joni. I suspect > that > she sang or played to the other musicians on the guitar what she wanted > them > to do with their instruments. I say this because she has mentioned in > interviews that she has done this before. > - -- > Phyliss > pward@lightspeed.net > http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward > An old friend of mine, Nadine Lewy, wife of Henry, told me about being with Joni in the studio. I think it was right after C&S came out. This (as Phyliss mentions) is how she described Joni's conveying to the musicians what she wanted them to play. Vocalizing, *scatting*, picking riffs out on the guitar - and she said these guys were always amazed at what Joni came up with. I think probably very little improv work is done on Joni's recordings - except maybe by Joni herself :-> Don ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:34:47 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: favourite non-joni musicians (NJC)] In a message dated 99-08-24 19:03:26 EDT, jason.maloney@virgin.net writes: << Apparently, the album was recorded and initially released in 1971, but hung around the charts for 6 yrs (it says here on the CD sleeve notes). >> It broke and held the record for the longest time any one record ever stayed on Billboard's Hot 200 Album Chart until Dark Side of the Moon came along... Bob NP: Sugarloaf, "Gold and the Blues" (great hippie-type jamfest...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:41:39 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Re: favourite non-joni musicians (NJC) funny. i went along more or less the same path. classical music led me to the carpenters. the carpenters to carole king. carole king to carly simon. then i came to an impasse: i needed more music by women but less pop. and i wanted words that i could relate to. i could've dropped women songwriters at this point and taken up dylan. but i came across the lyrics to the last time i saw richard and i was lost to joni. until today, i haven't listened to bob dylan. joni took all the room. wally\k - -----Original Message----- De: Mark or Travis Para: mwyarbro@zzapp.org ; joni@smoe.org Fecha: Martes 24 de Agosto de 1999 19:07 Asunto: Re: Re: favourite non-joni musicians (NJC) > >> >> Jason Maloney wrote: >> >> <<> of songs such as I Feel The Earth Move, It's Too Late, You Make >> Me Feel Like A Natural Woman, and You've Got A Friend.>>> >> >> Just picking a nit: these renditions are not technically "original" >> versions, as most (actually I think all) had previously been >> recorded by other artists, and were thus widely known. In fact, >> wasn't part of the marketing around this release centered around >> "songwriter singing her songs made famous by others" hype? >> >> --Michael > >I don't remember which came first, the Tapestry album or JT's version >of 'You've Got a Friend'. But as far as the other songs on Tapestry >are concerned I don't think any of them were recorded before besides >'Natural Woman' and 'Will You Love Me Tomorrow'. > >I remember buying the single of 'It's Too Late' and later the Tapestry >album. It was kind of an important purchase for me because up to that >point in time my record collection consisted mostly of show tunes, The >Fifth Dimension, Dionne Warwick & Carpenters. Carole King was the >first singer/songwriter of any weight that I became interested in. >She opened my tightly closed little mind far enough to let Carly Simon >slip in and eventually Joni and well - the rest is history, so to >speak. Eventually I went places I never expected to go and I'm glad >of it. > >Mark in Seattle > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:46:15 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: US speak NJC hey, that may be a good explanation. wk - -----Original Message----- De: catman Para: Wally Kairuz CC: JONI DIGEST Fecha: Martes 24 de Agosto de 1999 18:27 Asunto: Re: US speak NJC >I always thought they were saying PHEW but hadn't learnt to speak properly! > >Wally Kairuz wrote: > >> now my question is: when americans say "P-U!" [two separate letters, as in >> an abbreviation] when something stinks, what do those letters stand for? >> wally\k > > > >-- >CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST >http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html > >TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS >http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 19:03:44 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni in the studio was Re: for jmdl guitarists (HOSL) > speaking of HOSL, phyliss wrote: > > > That album is totally Joni. I suspect > > that > > she sang or played to the other musicians on the guitar what she wanted > > them > > to do with their instruments. I say this because she has mentioned in > > interviews that she has done this before. > > - -- > > Phyliss > > An old friend of mine, Nadine Lewy, wife of Henry, told me about being > with Joni in the studio. I think it was right after C&S came out. This > (as Phyliss mentions) is how she described Joni's conveying to the > musicians what she wanted them to play. Vocalizing, *scatting*, picking > riffs out on the guitar - and she said these guys were always amazed at > what Joni came up with. I think probably very little improv work is done > on Joni's recordings - except maybe by Joni herself :-> > > Don Down-Under JMDLer John Low kindly sent me a copy of an article that was published in an Australian magazine called Rhythms. The interviewer asked Joni about how she connected up with Jaco Pastorius. In the course of her explanation she provided a glimpse into her method of giving her arrangements to musicians: 'Well, prior to meeting Jaco I had been newly introduced to the experience of working with an expanded palette with other musicians, and while the first collaboration was very exciting, "Court and Spark" that is, most of the playing came from existing chords in the skeleton of what I played, it was added very carefully. Any counter-melody that was added I would sing to Tom Scott and he would transcribe it, there were a few pockets of free expression, there was one song where part of the horn stack arrangements are mine and they're kind of eccentric and part of them were Tom Scott's in the same song they are more normal horn writing, so like I say there were little pockets of free expression. It was my first experience in guiding musicians and I was clumsy at first in getting what I wanted from them without bruising their spirit. It's hard for anyone to direct musicians, but men being directed by a woman get intolerant quicker, so there was a lot to learn. In the coming of the next record - I gotta give you some background leading up to it - I gave my musicians freer rein, as a result on "The Hissing of Summer Lawns" in some places there was more jazz expression in that I allowed them to express more of their own melodic opinion and they came out of the jazz idiom and therefore the colours that they added to my colours were more idiomatically jazz. As a result some people were offended and said "Joni's gone in a jazz direction" and really what I was doing was giving greater freedom of expression to my players and learning along the way. In the process of learning I learnt that what they did was nice but that I had strong opinions, so I began to then try and guide them closer to what I wanted. ' She goes on to talk about wanting the bass to sound a certain way and how that eventually led to her hooking up with Jaco. And, of course, we know the rest is musical history. For those inquiring minds that want to know. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:16:51 -0400 From: Thunderthumbs Subject: [Fwd: Re: New Releases] X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 Message-ID: <37C351AB.2567@erols.com> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:15:07 -0400 From: Thunderthumbs X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: New Releases Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gina, I haven't aquired a taste for Randy Newman's pop music, but he has done two soundtracks (maybe more) that I really thing are on par with any other "serious composer"'s soundtracks- "Awakenings" from 1991 with Robert DeNiro, and Robin Williams- both who I think should have won Oscars for their performances... and "Avalon" from 1990 which I haven't seen, but have the soundtrack as well. Both are excellent. If you'd like a copy, I'd be happy to share the music. It is worth sharing. Ever lurking... Brad P.s If the pop music Randy Newman isn't the soundtrack composer Rany Newman, the joke's on me... Anyone? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:41:05 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Comments on Lakota njc In a message dated 8/23/1999 7:59:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, M.Russell@iaea.org writes: << I have always felt uncomfortable with the words "pity me", I guess because I have trouble with the word "pity" - it has a negative connotation for me. I am wondering if anyone has thought much about this song. Does the Lakota language have a special word that translates to "pity" that is part of a religious ceremony or something? Because the song seems to be like a prayer to sun, moon, rocks, grass, etc. Is the meaning more like "have mercy on me" or "help me"? >> I am glad that you brought that up. I for one love the song but have a problem with Pity Me as well. Maybe it means that the natives people are so devasted with all their loss that they want all their surroundings to take pity on them for being so overwhelmed with pain from all the loss of relatives, loved ones and land. I have a map of the USA way befor the white man took it over and every part of that country had a tribe or nation living there and then the white man came and took it all away. They have alot to be pitied for and maybe that is the point of the song. When your whole way of life is ripped out of your heart their is not much left..... Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:00:32 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: favourite non-joni musicians (NJC) In a message dated 8/24/1999 7:25:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jason.maloney@virgin.net writes: << > Carole King I've noticed the inclusion of Carole King on a fair few of these fave artist lists. In a classic case of "better late than never", I picked up a copy of Tapestry on CD at the weekend. It's just been re-issued here, and the music magazine I read (Q) gave it the full five-star treatment. If you can believe it, I hadn't ever heard the original versions of songs such as I Feel The Earth Move, It's Too Late, You Make Me Feel Like A Natural Woman, and You've Got A Friend. I'm still in my 20s, and don't listen to any radio stations. All I can say is I love this album. It's so emotionally potent, and beautifully crafted and recorded. Her "Natural Woman" had my jaw almost dropping to the floor, and "Earth Move" has an irresistible groove. I can see why this artsist - and this album especially - are held in such high regard. Jason. >> If you love Tapestry you will really love Rhymes and Reasons. It is my favorite by her. She really shows her excellent song writing capabilities there! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:06:28 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Opening tracks njc In a message dated 8/24/1999 8:02:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MDESTE1@aol.com writes: << I love the song Tin Angel. There is always that day when you meet the one you fall in love with. It always seems like a nothing day until that moment and then it becomes an unforgettable day in your life forever. The words she wrote may be among her very best poetry of all her songs and I also think that the chord structure is one of those early examples of how Joni was capable of going beyond the conventional. Its an underrated song in my opinion but those first four notes followed by the interesting chord and finger picking with its odd timing always gets my attention. I also flashed on the song when I was in New York and walking the streets of Greenwich Village. The narrow funky streets with club after club, the stores and the nooks and crannies of the area and I literally thought of how Joni was there one day long ago and this is where she must have met someone one day right there in one of those clubs. I couldnt find a place called the Tin Angel but I did find the Bitter End which was one of the old great places in the village. Thanks for bringing up this song. This album didnt do well in the poll some time ago but I love it. marcel deste. >> The Tin Angel is in Philadelphia. I don't know if it was around when she was there but I was there just last week and hung out with one of my favorite performers Francis Dunnery. When he did his last song he retuned his guitar. When he was finished I went back stage and asked him what tuning it was in and he said open D. So I took his guitar and started playing Chealsea Morning. He never heard it befor so I told him it was Joni Mitchell. Then he took the guitar from me and started playing Peoples Parties. Then I retook the guitar from him and started doing Amelia (thanks Sue and Marian) He knew that one. I can't beleive that I hung out and played guitar with one of my favorite musicians after Joni! What an experience! Catgirl dreamland..dddrreeaammlland! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:22:20 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Re OZ speak/US speak NJC In a message dated 8/24/1999 7:39:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wallykai@interserver.com.ar writes: << yummy! grits is delicious! i ate it in southern usa for breakfast. it's ground grain [corn?]. wally\k >> Yep it is corn and I love it too! Cat.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:42:47 -0400 From: waytoblu@mindspring.com Subject: Re: Re OZ speak/US speak NJC >wallykai@interserver.com.ar writes: > ><< yummy! grits is delicious! i ate it in southern usa for breakfast. it's > ground grain [corn?]. > wally\k >> >Yep it is corn and I love it too! >Cat.... Has anyone ever had garlic cheese grits? My mother used to make it all the time and it was absolutely delicious. It had the best consistency gritwise. Victor NP: CLouds still... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:40:06 EDT From: Bolvangar@aol.com Subject: Re: Alternative Tunings (NJC) from the article Kakki posted: <> Paul Simon not only learned "Scarborough Fair" -- a version of one of the Child ballads -- from Martin Carthy (mentioned earlier in the article), he used his arrangement without acknowledging him. I've read that Carthy sued Simon to get credit for the arrangement, and won. Thanks, Kakki, I found the article very interesting. - --David NP: Swimming Pool Q's, _Blue Tomorrow_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:46:11 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Martinis (NJC) Kakki wrote: "There is something about a Martini, A tingle remarkably pleasant; A yellow, a mellow Martini; I wish I had one at present. There is something about a Martini, Ere the dining and dancing begin, And to tell you the truth, It is not the vermouth-- I think that perhaps it's the gin." Kakki- Clink! Here here mate. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 13:07:50 +1000 From: "Takats, Angela" Subject: Re OZ speak/US speak NJC <> Well, don't know if anyone else has "touched" this one...but I can inform you that jerkin the gherkin is very much about masturbation, which I'm sure you have all already figured, and I always thought it was a US term anyway? As for whipping the dripping...can't say I've ever heard that used in everyday talk, but I'm assuming it's along the same lines. shame on you catman ;) Ange Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:10:05 -0700 From: Lindsay Moon Subject: 8/15 LA Times JM Mention Okay, okay, I know I'm belated in a Joni-in-print sighting ... but better late than never. I was in L.A. for a family wedding and spotted the cover of the L.A. Times Sunday Calendar section, "Hollywood's Revolution of '69." It's an article talking about the various players (actors, directors, producers) making the movies of that time, "Easy Rider," "Bob, Carol, Ted & Alice," "Midnight Cowboy," etc. At one point they go through a diary of the year in which JM is mentioned twice: May 22, 1969: Joni Mitchell plays The Troubador. [There is a 1" x 1" STAS-era photo of her.] August 25, 1969: Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young make their first Los Angeles appearance at the Greek Theater. Opening act: Joni Mitchell. Although I was only 13 that year, I had a strong sense I should be living about 10 years ahead of my time. Maybe in my next life ... Lindsay in San Diego ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:20:38 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Troubling '60s Non-Flashbacks (VLJC) Steve Dulson wrote: >Boy, I could *swear* I heard EF do the song....oh well, they say the memory is the...what?...what do they say?> ROFLMAO!!! yo, steve, if you can't quit smokin' that stuff, I think you'd better at least give it a break for a week or two! LoL!!! >Anyway, EF was one of the tightest groups I've ever seen.> that's for sure! and what a lineup! Buddy Miles, Mike Bloomfield, ...and I was really surprised the first time I realized that Richie Havens was one of them also! actually, steve, come to think of it, what with the rather close (super session... kooper-bloomfield-stills, and the kooper-bloomfield 'live adventures of' collaboration as well) ties (http://www.tunes.com/release/default.asp?from=from&relid=67263 & http://www.tunes.com/release/default.asp?from=from&relid=169906) between Kooper-Bloomfield, it really doesn't take too much of a stretch to picture EF doing the song in concert or even with Kooper sitting in. it coulda happened... easily! *S* "I can't quit her... she's got her hold on me, she's got her hand on my soul, I can't quit her..." >Always appreciate your comments! :)> same here, steve... whenever I see your name on the digest I automatically think of a dulcimer... it's almost like it's one word... 'stevedulcimer'! *S* I recall the first time I ever laid eyes on a dulcimer... rosewood, I think it was... sitting in Joni's lap. ...and man did it just sound as sweet as honey with my roadworn, battered old martin D28! pat NP: Tell Me Why - N. Young Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:01:27 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Re: top 10 favorite non joni artists (NJC) Not that I'm behind on my reading or anything, I just like being fashionably late: Robert Zimmerman Van Morrison John Martyn Tom Waits Neil Young Rickie Lee Jones Patricia Barber Pat Metheny David Grisman 325-way tie for 10th ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 01:05:30 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Catgirl at the Philly Folk Fest singing Joni NJC Hi GAng, I am leaving on Thursday for the Philly folk Fest with guitar in hand and a ton of Joni in the correct tuning (whoo-hoo) to share with anyone who will hear my voice which is loud so alot of people will hear me. This is perfect rehersal for Asharas. I will save some of my singing voice for the following weekend so look out. The line up is great with John Prine, Louden Wainright the 3rd, Janis Ian, Moxy Frouvous and tons of others. I am working the Tix booth and half the time singing at the tix booth all the Joni I know. I want to thank the folks who put all those Joni songs in the right tuning out there. THIS alone was the only reason I started playing guitar again.. Tha passion is back stronger then ever befor! Love all you guys! Luv, Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:05:25 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni in the studio was Re: for jmdl guitarists (HOSL) Don wrote: > An old friend of mine, Nadine Lewy, wife of Henry, told me about > being with Joni in the studio. I think it was right after C&S came out. > This (as Phyliss mentions) is how she described Joni's conveying to the > musicians what she wanted them to play. Vocalizing, *scatting*, > picking riffs out on the guitar - and she said these guys were always amazed > at what Joni came up with. Wow, Don, what a very cool Joni connection! I'll bet Nadine has more than a few great stories! Mark quoted from the "Rhythms" magazine interview with Joni: > I would sing to Tom Scott and he would transcribe it, > there were a few pockets of free expression, there was one song where > part of the horn stack arrangements are mine and they're kind of > eccentric and part of them were Tom Scott's in the same song they are > more normal horn writing, so like I say there were little pockets of > free expression. In the coming of the next record - I gotta give you > some background leading up to it - I gave my musicians freer rein, as > a result on "The Hissing of Summer Lawns" in some places there was > more jazz expression in that I allowed them to express more of their > own melodic opinion and they came out of the jazz idiom and therefore > the colours that they added to my colours were more idiomatically > jazz. I've already blathered on about how much I love the HOSL "Demo" tape and I listened to it constantly for several weeks. At one point, I was discussing it offlist and finally went back and listened to the actual album and it was somewhat disorienting after bonding so much to the demo versions of the songs. I would not say that the demos are better but I did perceive that Joni lost a slight amount of her original interpretation in the jazzy final product. I tried to analyze how this happened without in any way resorting to dissing the contributions of Guerin, Bennet, Carlton, Felder, Findley and the others. My sense was that Joni did lose a little control once she added them - this comes across in her singing where she seems to straining a bit at times to follow or keep up with their (majority ;-) lead. Not to criticize - my appreciation of this album only grows all the time - it's just something I noticed between the two versions. As to earlier question/comments today regarding HOSL - Guerin is credited in the songbook with writing the music to Hissing of Summer Lawns and James Taylor is credited with playing guitar on the album track. By the way, Tom Scott and the L.A. Express were playing here in Hollywood last Sunday. Ashara and I wanted to try to fit it in but we just can't do it all sometimes! Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #367 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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