From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #338 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Wednesday, August 4 1999 Volume 04 : Number 338 The Laborday JoniFest is happening this fall! For information: send a message to Join the mailing list at: ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Sometimes it just hits me [Casey Certis-Milby ] Re: joni and her tunings ["P. Henry" ] CaTGirl's guitar (NJC) [Kay_Ashley@ars.aon.com] Joni/Big Band ["Catherine McKay" ] The Magdalene Laundries, my take ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: The Magdalene Laundries, my take [Don Rowe ] Re: Sometimes it just hits me [PJT ] Re: The Magdalene Laundries, my take ["Catherine McKay" ] RE: The Magdalene Laundries, my take ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: The Magdalene Laundries, my takeNJC [catman ] Re: Cactus Trees and Galleries... ["Jennifer L. Nodine" ] Joan Armatrading Concert NJC [Ginamu@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 01:03:03 -0700 From: Casey Certis-Milby Subject: Re: Sometimes it just hits me > You two really hit a button here .... I'll be driving in my car and get so > involved in one of Joni's songs (most any one!) that I will loose direction > of where I was going. > As others have mentioned here, the way it was for a long time is that I never knew when to expect a new Joni, and it sometimes took a while to catch on that there was one. The first time I heard "Chinese Cafe/Unchained Melody" I was in my car driving down a busy multi-lane highway. From the first lines I was electrified, I don't even have words for it, it was as if Joni had been reading my heart and mind, tapping into an emotional place that for me at that time was very raw and intense (although I laugh from the perspective of my age now to think that at 30 something I was feeling middle-aged.) When she started to sing Unchained Melody, a song which had intensified yet eased the burden of many a passionate youthful and not quite requited love, the tears began to flow freely. By the time she reached We look like our mothers did now When we were those kids age (I was just coming to terms with some mother-daughter issues in therapy), I was sobbing in huge, gasping breaths. I couldn't see and don't know exactly how I managed to pull over to the shoulder of the road, but I did. And there I sat until I was all sobbed out. As soon as I could pull myself together, I turned right around and headed to the record store. I played that song and that album to death. When I read discussions abut its relative artistry or merits, I know it holds such a special place for me that I could never contribute subjectively. There are other songs that have and do bring tears to my eyes, but there is not another singer in the world that reaches that place everyone who posted has described so well - she is a secret, a gift, a validation, a benediction. Casey (Feeling quite confessional lately.) "It is good to have an end to journey towards; but it is the journey that matters in the end." U.K.LeG. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 05:25:22 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: joni and her tunings Kakki wrote: "...Joni was influenced and learned the alternate tunings from the Croz. I'm still not willing to totally accept that... if is is true that Crosby originally inspired her in this regard..." Mr. Crosby himself states that he met Joni in *1967* for the first time ( http://www.jonimitchell.com/jonihome.html#IV ) and I can personally verify that she had a rather large setlist of original songs, all written in open tunings quite early in 1966 and, I would venture that lister Cul Heath, who has known Joni longer than any of us, to my knowledge, could probably date her usage of tunings back to '65, two years before she met David. ie: Kakki, it just ain't so!!! *S* Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:57:27 -0400 From: Kay_Ashley@ars.aon.com Subject: CaTGirl's guitar (NJC) Hey Catgirl! I agree with whoever wrote that you absolutely must make your decision based on sound. That's essential. So my advice would be, if you really like the sound of the more expensive guitar better, go for it. If the 910 is indeed the one you love, and you're feeling nervous about the money, keep in mind that "you get what you pay for." The 910 will probably hold its value better than a more economical model. Don't be too tempted by the pre-installed pick-up and EQ on the cheaper model. Often times, these things sound like crap anyway, and the reason it's such a deal is that the materials they use aren't the best. If you're serious about amplification, then you're going to want to be able to make your own decisions about what to put in the thing anyway. Remember that built-in EQ amounts to having another hole cut into the body -- I find that when I pick up guitars that have that feature, I can hear a difference. Maybe I'm really anal and picky, but I'd rather have an external EQ anyway, to retain as much of the guitar's physical integrity as possible. As far as the pre-installed pickup on the cheaper Taylor goes, my suspicion is that it's an under-the-saddle piezo pickup, which does not sound good to my ear. An under-the-saddle piezo only amplifies the sound that travels to the end of the strings -- really harsh sounding to my ear. Try picking your guitar just above the bridge, and you'll get that real choppy blue-grassy sound -- well, that's pretty much what you'll hear no matter where you strum if you go with a thinline piezo. To illustrate other possibilities, I have a DiMarzio Elemental soundhole pick-up in my Martin OM-21, wired so that I can plug in at the endpin. I had a double-jack installed on the inside, b/c at some point (when I have the money), I want to have an internal microphone installed in the upper bout of the guitar -- that way I can have a blend of magnetic (generally fat-sounding) and "live" amplification. In short, I would go for the used Taylor if that's the one you love, and the less physical alteration of the guitar you do (i.e., I wouldn't recommend installing internal EQ), the better the guitar will hold its value; and over time, you may end up with a guitar that's worth more than what you paid for it. Unlike computers, guitars may actually appreciate in value if you treat them right. Hope that helps! Kay Ashley ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 15:39:46 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Joni/Big Band Is it true that Joni is recording an album of big-band style music, or is that just wishful thinking? I listened to the "Painting with words and music" video again just recently and was really blown away by her singing of other people's songs, such as "Why do fools fall in love?" (I heard her singing this live at a concert in Toronto quite a while back - it was around the time of "Wild things run fast" if memory serves) but more so by her singing of Marvin Gaye's "Trouble Man". (Again, she did "Grapevine at the same T.O. show) and Billie Holiday's "Comes love". I hope it's true - her singing was fabulous and I want to hear more! cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 16:01:17 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: The Magdalene Laundries, my take “I was an unmarried girl I’d just turned 27 When they sent me to the sisters For the way men looked at me…” Does anyone else wonder about the fact that this “girl” is 27? If she were going to be sent away “for the way men looked at [her]”, why would it take until she had reached 27? I could buy this happening to a young girl who got pregnant and was sent to such a place by her family, but someone who is 27 when this happens? Since that one number in the song was bothering me, I came up with a scenario that works for me. The story takes place in the mid-19th century or thereabouts in a small village in Ireland. The woman in question is born to a family of farmers. She is an only child. Her parents had been married for some time, but were never able to have children. Eventually, her mother does bring this one child to term, but the mother dies in childbirth or shortly thereafter, leaving the girl alone with her father. The father raises the girl, who determines that she will have a better life than might be expected in such a small town. As she grows up, she determines that she will control her own life and will not end up as so many other women do, in an unhappy and possibly abusive marriage. She becomes self-reliant, possibly working as a weaver or some other craft that would make her self-sufficient, all while living with and keeping house for her father and attempting to educate herself. The father, however, is getting older and sicker and doesn’t have long to live. Throughout her girlhood and early young womanhood, the young woman receives proposals of marriage from local bachelors and widowers, but refuses them. Likewise, she receives many “indecent” proposals, which again, she rejects. As she grows older, local people become jealous of her independence , free spiritedness and the fact that she is “different” from them, so that they begin to spread nasty rumours about her. Local men ogle her and are always passing crude remarks and trying to cop a feel. Their wives are convinced that she is sleeping with them and begin to spread rumours that she is a prostitute. The local village priest has been kind to her throughout her childhood and encourages her in her education, but he, too, grows older and either dies or is sent away to retirement. A new one comes along full of hellfire and brimstone. Around the same time, her father dies and she is now left alone to fend for herself. She does not have the means to leave her small village, and in fact, likes it there and wants to stay in the family home. Between the jealousy and bitterness of the local people and this new priest branding her as a Jezebel, and then her father’s sudden death, one thing leads to another and a local lout attempts to, and possibly succeeds in raping her. No one will know the truth about this, because people prefer to think of her as the fallen woman who has led others astray. As a result of all this, she ultimately has a breakdown of sorts and is sent to the sisters. Although initially she is led to believe that they will care for her and nurse her back to health, she discovers that the sisters’ job is to keep the fallen women out of sight of respectable folks. Several years have gone by when she tells her story, but by this point, she is quite broken down and sees her situation as hopeless. “One day I’m going to die here too, and they’ll plant me in the dirt.” And that’s it. That's all she wrote. Sorry for rambling. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:37:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: The Magdalene Laundries, my take - --- Catherine McKay wrote: > “I was an unmarried girl > I’d just turned 27 > When they sent me to the sisters > For the way men looked at me…” > > Does anyone else wonder about the fact that this > “girl” is 27? If she were > going to be sent away “for the way men looked at > [her]”, why would it take > until she had reached 27? An interesting, elaborate and consistent take. Your thinking is clearly contemporary, which is interesting, since I've always seen the song as a period piece, written from a historical viewpoint. Today we would certainly think of a 27-year old as a "woman" ... of heart and mind, or otherwise ;-). But in the cultural context of the song, a 27-year old would, in fact, be a spinister. Marriages were being arranged for girls of 14-16 years quite commonly. So a single woman of this "advanced" age could be so for only one of two reasons ... A) the family has no property for a dowery B) she is not a virgin. Unfortunately, (A) would likely have been overlooked, leaving only (B) as the "obvious" judgement in the eyes of the community. Knowing this, and wishing only to escape the embarassment of public ridicule, a family would send such a girl to the sisters -- regardless of her true moral character or the circumstances of her failure to marry. Thanks for starting what I hope will be an interesting thread ... Don Rowe _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:58:51 -0700 (PDT) From: PJT Subject: Re: Sometimes it just hits me Casey, I got goose bumps reading your response. I dont need validation but it is so great to share this feeling with other people. Thank you. Pam - --- Casey Certis-Milby wrote: > > > > You two really hit a button here .... I'll be > driving in my car and get so > > involved in one of Joni's songs (most any one!) > that I will loose direction > > of where I was going. > > > > As others have mentioned here, the way it was for a > long time is that I > never knew when to expect a new Joni, and it > sometimes took a while to > catch on that there was one. The first time I heard > "Chinese > Cafe/Unchained Melody" I was in my car driving down > a busy multi-lane > highway. From the first lines I was electrified, I > don't even have words > for it, it was as if Joni had been reading my heart > and mind, tapping > into an emotional place that for me at that time was > very raw and > intense (although I laugh from the perspective of my > age now to think > that at 30 something I was feeling middle-aged.) > > When she started to sing Unchained Melody, a song > which had intensified > yet eased the burden of many a passionate youthful > and not quite > requited love, the tears began to flow freely. By > the time she reached > We look like our mothers did now When we were those > kids age (I was just > coming to terms with some mother-daughter issues in > therapy), I was > sobbing in huge, gasping breaths. I couldn't see and > don't know exactly > how I managed to pull over to the shoulder of the > road, but I did. And > there I sat until I was all sobbed out. > > As soon as I could pull myself together, I turned > right around and > headed to the record store. I played that song and > that album to death. > When I read discussions abut its relative artistry > or merits, I know it > holds such a special place for me that I could never > contribute > subjectively. There are other songs that have and do > bring tears to my > eyes, but there is not another singer in the world > that reaches that > place everyone who posted has described so well - > she is a secret, a > gift, a validation, a benediction. > > Casey > (Feeling quite confessional lately.) > > > "It is good to have an end to journey towards; but > it is the journey > that matters in the end." > U.K.LeG. > > > _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 18:12:43 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: The Magdalene Laundries, my take Actually, I didn't mean it to sound contemporary. I was thinking of it as something that had happened 100 or more years ago. I took that bit out before I sent it. At that time, most girls would probably be married at 16, and with 10 kids by the age of 27. An "unmarried girl" of 27 would have been looked upon as an old maid back then (I have friends whose families still see it that way!) I figured she had very little money AND did have a reputation of sorts, whether it was deserved or not. She's not a prostitute or destitute, nor is she pregnant out of wedlock, so she says - she is merely (!) a "temptress" and a "Jezebel" who is sent away "for the way men look at me". I see it as taking place in a very tight-knit sort of society with closely guarded values, where anyone who was "different" would be viewed with great suspicion and perhaps jealousy. The only way I could reconcile her being sent away, given her maturity and the was one of 2 possibilies - either she was arrested for something and sent there in lieu of being sent to jail (and I didn't know how realistic that might be) or that she was so worn down from constantly being bad-mouthed by the locals that she submitted to being sent there (so I figured she was physically or mentally exhausted by that time, otherwise she would have fought it.) >An interesting, elaborate and consistent take. Your >thinking is clearly contemporary, which is >interesting, since I've always seen the song as a >period piece, written from a historical viewpoint. >Today we would certainly think of a 27-year old as a >"woman" ... of heart and mind, or otherwise ;-). But >in the cultural context of the song, a 27-year old >would, in fact, be a spinister. Marriages were being >arranged for girls of 14-16 years quite commonly. > >So a single woman of this "advanced" age could be so >for only one of two reasons ... A) the family has no >property for a dowery B) she is not a virgin. >Unfortunately, (A) would likely have been overlooked, >leaving only (B) as the "obvious" judgement in the >eyes of the community. > >Knowing this, and wishing only to escape the >embarassment of public ridicule, a family would send >such a girl to the sisters -- regardless of her true >moral character or the circumstances of her failure to >marry. > >Thanks for starting what I hope will be an interesting >thread ... > >Don Rowe >_____________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com > cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 18:26:49 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: The Magdalene Laundries, my take ... of course, having said that last bit, I just thought of another scenario, based on a real situation. The neighbours who lived behind us in our last house were an older couple, originally from Poland, who had three children. Their daughter was quite brilliant in school but then in her teens developed schizophrenia. She had been in and out of various group homes and institutions and sometimes lived with her parents, other times on the street. By the time we knew her, she was probably in her late 20's, maybe even in her 30's, it was hard to tell. Anyway, what ended up happening was that she apparently picked up some guy somewhere - she was not able to tell anyone afterwords who he was - and ended up pregnant. Her parents, being very Catholic and all, didn't see abortion as an option, so she ended up having a baby (a girl) and they put her up for adoption. This is something that only happened a year or so ago. Very sad story, but maybe this is what the Magdalene person was like - perhaps she did have a mental illness, or was perceived as such - (she seems too lucid to me to be seriously mentally ill). But if she were somewhat delusional, she would be able to block out any memory of her own sexuality and put the onus on others for sending her away "for the way men looked at me." A lot of people with serious paranoia see things that way - in my line of work, we see a lot of people who are convinced that their neighbours or children are poisoning their water or their food, or that the CIA has planted a transmittor in their head, that kind of thing. Often you can be speaking to someone like this on the phone or reading a letter from them, and they sound quite sane at first, the writers often have beautiful handwriting and perfect grammar - then you realize, something is not quite right! Hmm. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 18:28:27 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: The Magdalene Laundries, my take ...njc Actually it fits perfectly. >From: Siresorrow@aol.com >To: cateri@hotmail.com >Subject: Re: The Magdalene Laundries, my take ...njc >Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:17:43 EDT > >In a message dated 8/4/99 12:03:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >cateri@hotmail.com writes: > ><< The story takes place in the mid-19th century or thereabouts in a small > village in Ireland....... >Several years have gone by when she tells her story, but by this point, she >is quite broken down and sees her situation as hopeless. “One day I’m >going >to die here too, and they’ll plant me in the dirt.” And that’s it. That's >all she wrote. > > >there is a catholic writer who is dead now named henri nouwen who was a >priest. he wrote a book called here and now and in it he said the greatest >image of the finality of death he has ever seen came one day while >travelling >in ireland. > >he saw a burrial upon a hill, and the people had left and the grounds men >were filling the grave with dirt. when they finished, three of them >climbed >upon the pile and started stomping the dirt with their feet. as if that >were >that. dead. buried in the dirt. gone. period. > >not connected with your write, but it fits in my weird mind. ss. > >ss. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:29:52 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Is The List delivery screwed up? Hi All! So is the list delivery system screwed up again? The post I sent an hour ago still hasn't posted on this end, so I'm wondering if other's are experiencing the same lack of JMDL emails right now too? Since I don't post that often, I can't track when the system is down except when I do throw something out there. A couple of weeks ago I received responses to a post I sent, a full 8 hours before the original post they were replying to showed up in my mailbox. As of midnight last night/this morning I've received a total of 3 list deliveries.....is that what everyone else has gotten too? As for the Armatrading post, it was meant playfully anyway, so my apologies, Gina, if a post had already been sent to the list concerning her performance from last night. ;-) Smiles Penny ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 18:37:47 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: The Magdalene Laundries, my take Here's something else - "We're trying to get things white as snow, all of us woebegotten daughters"... could this be a symptom of obsessive compulsive disorder? I think I'll shut up now... Or maybe not... ...that "woebegotten daughters" thing has got me off on another tangent altogether. It reminds me of some of the experiences that I and various friends and relations had, being taught by nuns in the 60's and 70's. My cousin, who is probably in her mid-fifties now, says she once had a nun/teacher who told the girls in her class they were so evil that God would "vomit them out of his mouth" on judgement day. How does that grab ya? I had one old nun for a math teacher in high school who used to flip out if she saw boys and girls together so much as holding hands. She used to yell at the boy to "take his hands off that girl!" She would also warn us that, if we were to invite a boy to our home for dinner, we must be sure not to use a white tablecloth at the dinner table, because that would remind him of bed sheets and make him think impure thoughts. (I wonder what she did when coloured sheets came in style!) She would be so riled up by this stuff that she would literally foam at the mouth - but, jeez, she had to share all that with us anyway! Fortunately for us, we were able to laugh at that stuff, but you never know how it might affect some more sensitive soul. Now I'll shut up. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 19:39:49 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: The Magdalene Laundries, my take ...njc I don't think that 27 is an outlandish age for this to have happened this century, even in the 60's. i certainly do not think that the person is deranged in anyway. Of vourse her persecuaters would say she was-blame the victim-it is the easiest thing to do. Personally, I don't find this song to be difficult to understand or believe at all. Terrible things happen all the time and unfortunately many people would prefer to disbelieve it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 19:45:28 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: The Magdalene Laundries, my take Catherine McKay wrote: > Here's something else - "We're trying to get things white as snow, all of us > woebegotten daughters"... could this be a symptom of obsessive compulsive > disorder? oh I am ceratin you are right. And probably Joni has a severe personality disorder too! Or she is bipolar with delusions of grandeur. Or she writes truth as she she wees it. > > > I think I'll shut up now... > > Or maybe not... > > ...that "woebegotten daughters" thing has got me off on another tangent > altogether. It reminds me of some of the experiences that I and various > friends and relations had, being taught by nuns in the 60's and 70's. > > My cousin, who is probably in her mid-fifties now, says she once had a > nun/teacher who told the girls in her class they were so evil that God would > "vomit them out of his mouth" on judgement day. How does that grab ya? I too was taught by nuns/priests in that time period. We were taught that girls only started to menstruate because they had succumbed to impure thatought. We were also taught that sex was only required for producing children. A truly 'godly' person would not entertain thoughts of sex, let alone indulge in it. To be a virgin(male or female) was the best way. > > > I had one old nun for a math teacher in high school who used to flip out if > she saw boys and girls together so much as holding hands. She used to yell > at the boy to "take his hands off that girl!" She would also warn us that, > if we were to invite a boy to our home for dinner, we must be sure not to > use a white tablecloth at the dinner table, because that would remind him of > bed sheets and make him think impure thoughts. (I wonder what she did when > coloured sheets came in style!) She would be so riled up by this stuff that > she would literally foam at the mouth - but, jeez, she had to share all that > with us anyway! > > Fortunately for us, we were able to laugh at that stuff, but you never know > how it might affect some more sensitive soul. > > Now I'll shut up. > > cateri@hotmail.com > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:45:36 EDT From: SMEBD@aol.com Subject: Re: The Magdalene Laundries, my take In a message dated 8/4/1999 2:16:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cateri@hotmail.com writes: << An "unmarried girl" of 27 would have been looked upon as an old maid back then >> and then wrote << The only way I could reconcile her being sent away, given her maturity and the was one of 2 possibilities - either she was arrested for something and sent there in lieu of being sent to jail (and I didn't know how realistic that might be) or that she was so worn down from constantly being bad-mouthed by the locals that she submitted to being sent there (so I figured she was physically or mentally exhausted by that time, otherwise she would have fought it.) >> First, I loved reading where this song took you. I think that you have the beginnings of a wonderful short story. This is what is so wonderful about Joni's music--it takes us on trips to times and places that we would otherwise never go. In my opinion, the fact that you are having trouble reconciling why "an unmarried girl who just turned 27" would be sent off "for the way men looked at me" is exacting what was part of the inspiration for this song. I think that Joni is stating that this doesn't make any sense, but that Irish women were frequently "imprisoned" for being attractive, sexy and unmarried. Joni once introduced this song by saying that it was a "witch-hunt" of sorts and that these women were imprisoned for basically giving men "wet dreams". "20/20" did a piece on The Magdalene Laundries earlier this year (they didn't use Joni's song and it was a shame, because after viewing this piece, you could feel how Joni truly captured the entire historical experience in her words and music). Their report gave the impression (and they interviewed women who had been sent to the Sisters) that young women didn't have any rights or freedoms and could be sent against their will for no reason at all (other than the fact that "those in charge" disapproved of them). Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 14:16:24 -0500 From: "Mark Domyancich" Subject: Guitar heads only Looking for a new guitar I came across this on Mandolin Bros.' web page: 83-2872 C F Martin 1995 000-28GE, Golden Era Replica, 589565, #318 in the Limited Series, exc+ condition, OH One of our most favorite of all C F Martin guitar designs -- a close copy of the pre-l934 12-fret slothead wide neck made mostly to original prewar specifications except in East Indian rosewood and with an (thankfully) adjustable truss rod. This is a replica of the guitar that Joni Mitchell bought from us, along with the Gibson K-4 mandocello, which inspired her to write a song for her friend Sharon on her way back to Manhattan on a "big boat with a belly full'a cars." It was, thusly, only natural (the top, that is) that we should choose a variant on this 000-28GE to have Martin make us for our "25th Anniversary" model. **$3191 ___________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua | |_________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 19:17:36 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: RE: The Magdalene Laundries, my take I was just fooling with the obsessive compulsive disorder bit. I should have added a :) to it. Sorry 'bout that. This whole scene is very similar to what we Canadians did to aboriginal people even up to perhaps 20-30 years ago. The same experience has probably happened all over the world at various times with different power groups taking it out on the weaker ones. For that matter, many children sent away to boarding schools, or even in their own local schools and churches, were abused mentally, physically and even sexually by priests, nuns, teachers and others who held the power and could make that child believe that anything that happened to them was their own fault. Native children were routinely taken away from their parents and sent to boarding-schools run mostly by various churches (all denominations really). These children were taught to speak English and to do things the "white" way. If they were caught speaking their native languages, they would be punished. They were constantly told that anything related to their native heritage was evil, that their native beliefs were pagan and bad. On the other hand, although they were taught to behave like whites, they were never treated as whites, but always as inferiors. In addition to being constantly harangued and badgered for being inferior and bad, they were also abused physically and even sexually. When they grew and went back to their communities, they had been so badly treated that they were unable to form relationships with others, had no concept of how to be a good husband, or a good wife, or a good parent, and, as a result, their children grew up dysfuntional, not fitting in anywhere. Many of them developed substance abuse problems and, in turn, had children with fetal alcohol syndrome and so on. Although they are now trying to use their own native healing processes to heal these wounds, it must take generations for the effect of such abuse to go away. The first generation to decide to begin the healing process may have to just go through the motions of a "normal" relationship, even thought they may be so scarred they have lost their feelings, have become in effect sociopaths. The outcome of this, one would hope, is that the next generation, or the one after that, would truly be able to feel and to share their love with others, rather than just going through the motions. >From: Jenaya Dawe >To: 'Catherine McKay' >Subject: RE: The Magdalene Laundries, my take >Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:59:23 -0700 > >Catherine wrote: > > >Here's something else - "We're trying to get things white as snow, all of >us > >woebegotten daughters"... could this be a symptom of obsessive compulsive > >disorder? > > >I think I'll shut up now... > > >I always considered this line to be about the use of hard labor as >"cleansing." Obviously, these women were considered "dirty" or "evil" by >their families/neighbors/clergy, and, I'm not Catholic, but this is >considered penance, right? > >I can imagine the women working hard, so as to not provoke harsh words or >actions from the sisters, and also, possibly out of desperation. (Early out >for good behavior?) > >or, another thought: > >This woman, (I've always called her Maire in my head)has dne nothing wrong, >but the constant strain of persecution from her environment, and esp. from >the nuns, has convinced her that she is in need of cleansing, that she is >not clean, that she is not bound for heaven. So she works hard, her fingers >cracking and bleeding from the hot water, her skin irritated and inflamed >by >the lye in the soap, as well as her own rough clothes, and the inevitable >corporal punishment. A (compulsive?) work ethic can be a source of >escapism, as many of us know! > >jen > >NP: Freedy Johnston "This Perfect World" > > > cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:15:50 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Joan Armatrading Gina wrote: I'm leaving in about an hour to catch Joan in North Adams, Massachusetts. I'm soooooo psyched! Tell you guys about it tomorrow! Take care, Gina Well, Gina dear, where's your review? Huh, where is it, huh? ;-) You do know that the entire reason the list has been so slow last night and today is because all 600 of us are waiting to hear from you about another Joan before we start posting again. I mean we're Down To Zero! No pressure, Gina dear! ;-D Sent with "Love and Affection" Penny ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:29:52 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Is The List delivery screwed up? Hi All! So is the list delivery system screwed up again? The post I sent an hour ago still hasn't posted on this end, so I'm wondering if other's are experiencing the same lack of JMDL emails right now too? Since I don't post that often, I can't track when the system is down except when I do throw something out there. A couple of weeks ago I received responses to a post I sent, a full 8 hours before the original post they were replying to showed up in my mailbox. As of midnight last night/this morning I've received a total of 3 list deliveries.....is that what everyone else has gotten too? As for the Armatrading post, it was meant playfully anyway, so my apologies, Gina, if a post had already been sent to the list concerning her performance from last night. ;-) Smiles Penny ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:05:27 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: joni and her tunings Pat Henry wrote: > Mr. Crosby himself states that he met Joni in *1967* for the first time http://www.jonimitchell.com/jonihome.html#IV ) and I can personally verify that she had a rather large setlist of original songs, all written in open tunings quite early in 1966 and, I would venture that lister Cul Heath, who has known Joni longer than any of us, to my knowledge, could probably date her usage of tunings back to '65, two years before she met David. > > ie: Kakki, it just ain't so!!! *S* I knew that, but even with all the evidence, it was impossible to convince my musician friend who idolizes Croz! I am more inclined to believe that Joni influenced him rather than that he showed her the way. She has had a tremendous influence on so many. Crosby's desire to experiment with alternate tunings in the music is one of the reasons he parted ways with the Byrds in the late 60s. Good thing he stuck to his own vision and musical inclination - the result shortly thereafter was the fantastic first CSN album. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 21:53:29 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: The Magdalene Laundries, my takeNJC Catherine McKay wrote: > I was just fooling with the obsessive compulsive disorder bit. I should > have added a :) to it. Sorry 'bout that. > > This whole scene is very similar to what we Canadians did to aboriginal > people even up to perhaps 20-30 years ago. The same experience has probably > happened all over the world at various times with different power groups > taking it out on the weaker ones. The exact same things happened in Australia with the Aust. Aboriginals. > For that matter, many children sent away > to boarding schools, or even in their own local schools and churches, were > abused mentally, physically and even sexually by priests, nuns, teachers and > others who held the power and could make that child believe that anything > that happened to them was their own fault. That is certainly true. And 25 years later one can still hear that 'it's your fault' voice incessantly! If one is lucky, other voices, kinder and more understanding, can drown it out. As to whether it will ever go completely.... > > > Native children were routinely taken away from their parents and sent to > boarding-schools run mostly by various churches (all denominations really). > These children were taught to speak English and to do things the "white" > way. If they were caught speaking their native languages, they would be > punished. They were constantly told that anything related to their native > heritage was evil, that their native beliefs were pagan and bad. On the > other hand, although they were taught to behave like whites, they were never > treated as whites, but always as inferiors. In addition to being constantly > harangued and badgered for being inferior and bad, they were also abused > physically and even sexually. And people still wonder why they resent white people so much!There was a doc about the 'true' KKK here the other night. It is amazoing how people can rationalise their hatred. i longed to point out to them that their desire for getting their country 'back' was truly misplaced as it was not their land in the first place but one stolen from the population already there before the white people showed up! no one in the doc mentioned that point either. > > > When they grew and went back to their communities, they had been so badly > treated that they were unable to form relationships with others, had no > concept of how to be a good husband, or a good wife, or a good parent, and, > as a result, their children grew up dysfuntional, not fitting in anywhere. > Many of them developed substance abuse problems and, in turn, had children > with fetal alcohol syndrome and so on. It is very difficult for people to behave in ways they have not been taught. One cannot give what one hasn't got. Subsatnce abuse( ore ven legal prescribed 'pain' killers) is a very common way for people to deal with the constant pain and confusion. OCD being another form and many other 'disturbences' all serve the same purpose-to numb out the pain of what really is. if one is so busy being obbsessed with something, it leaves no room for the real stuff. > > > Although they are now trying to use their own native healing processes to > heal these wounds, it must take generations for the effect of such abuse to > go away. The first generation to decide to begin the healing process may > have to just go through the motions of a "normal" relationship, even thought > they may be so scarred they have lost their feelings, have become in effect > sociopaths. The outcome of this, one would hope, is that the next > generation, or the one after that, would truly be able to feel and to share > their love with others, rather than just going through the motions. This inabilty to feel and just going thru the motions is the truly terrible legacy. And one which many people are just not aware of. it is so damaging. Even when the survivor goes on to have their own children and do not physically or sexually abuse, they still pass it on if they cannot feel. A child knows when one is just going thru the motions. > > > >From: Jenaya Dawe > >To: 'Catherine McKay' > >Subject: RE: The Magdalene Laundries, my take > >Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:59:23 -0700 > > > >Catherine wrote: > > > > >Here's something else - "We're trying to get things white as snow, all of > >us > > >woebegotten daughters"... could this be a symptom of obsessive compulsive > > >disorder? > > > > >I think I'll shut up now... > > > > > >I always considered this line to be about the use of hard labor as > >"cleansing." Obviously, these women were considered "dirty" or "evil" by > >their families/neighbors/clergy, and, I'm not Catholic, but this is > >considered penance, right? > > > >I can imagine the women working hard, so as to not provoke harsh words or > >actions from the sisters, and also, possibly out of desperation. (Early out > >for good behavior?) > > > >or, another thought: > > > >This woman, (I've always called her Maire in my head)has dne nothing wrong, > >but the constant strain of persecution from her environment, and esp. from > >the nuns, has convinced her that she is in need of cleansing, that she is > >not clean, that she is not bound for heaven. So she works hard, her fingers > >cracking and bleeding from the hot water, her skin irritated and inflamed > >by > >the lye in the soap, as well as her own rough clothes, and the inevitable > >corporal punishment. A (compulsive?) work ethic can be a source of > >escapism, as many of us know! > > > >jen > > > >NP: Freedy Johnston "This Perfect World" > > > > > > > > cateri@hotmail.com > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 17:45:47 CDT From: "Seth Garrison" Subject: Cactus Trees and Galleries... These are just two Jonithings that have been running through my mind~ The song "Cactus Tree," my favorite from _Songs to a Seagull_ is about a woman who somewhat lures all these men with her charms, but can't give any one of them all of her because of her fear of the loss of freedom. Is this song about Joni? It might sound stupid, and it might be completely obvious that it's about her. I just don't know what others think. Also, "The Gallery": Assuming it's literal, who is the painter in this song? I'm aware that it could be figurative, but again, just inquiring to see what you think. peace, seth _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 19:43:12 -0400 From: "Jennifer L. Nodine" Subject: Re: Cactus Trees and Galleries... Seth Garrison wrote: > > > > The song "Cactus Tree," _ is about a > woman who somewhat lures all these men with her charms, but can't give any > one of them all of her because of her fear of the loss of freedom. Is this > song about Joni? It might sound stupid, and it might be completely obvious > that it's about her. I just don't know what others think. > > Seth, I always thought the song was about me! ;-)Jenny, CT np indigo girls closer to fine ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 20:45:45 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: joni and her tunings perhaps a more important question than who inspired whom with the alternative tunings is who did more with the alternative tunings and i know we all will agree on that issue. the post earlier on the chinese cafe was so nice. it made it clear to me what power joni had on the guitar and the word combined to make not just music, but jazzy music that reaches deep down inside. and i know no one knows that more than miss kakki. and the croz, in spite of his beauty, has not touched that yet. but brian wilson, from your home state has come close. right? he's close, but still not there. and i agree with that. ss. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 20:59:36 -0400 From: Janet Hess Subject: Challenge In 25 words or less, prove that "Refuge of the Roads" and "Come In from the Cold" are not the same song. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 21:13:11 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Joan Armatrading Concert NJC Sorry to take so long with my report on last night's Armatrading concert but you know how life intervenes . According to Penny, you're all on pins and needles, right? uh huh...well... Joan and her fine band were in excellent form last night at the performing arts space in the Massachusetts Museum of Contemporary Art. It's a nice space, holding about 700 people. We were in the sixth row. Excellent seats. Great acoustics. There were no real surprises but I knew Joan isn't on tour to promote a new album and my expectations were only for what I've come to expect from her: a really quality performance with an excellent, tight band. The multi-instrumentalist played rhythm guitar as well as congas, all kinds of percussion instruments, two saxophones and flute. The drummer and keyboard player were especially excellent, and the bass player was no slouch either. I'm no expert on this but Joan sounded to me like an excellent guitar player. With the exception of a couple of more recent songs (Everyday Boy, Promised Land are examples) it could have been circa 1981. She performed most of her classics: Down To Zero, Show Some Emotion, Kissin' and A Huggin', Cool Blue, Love And Affection, Me, Myself, I. I'm sure I've left a couple out but I was really groovin' on the music, dancing in my seat and so happy to be there, that I wasn't taking notes. At one point, she stopped in mid-song, excused herself and walked off stage. Her band looked a little puzzled but she returned within less than a minute to start the song over (I don't recall which song). She made some composed and sweetly funny remarks about the interruption being a unique part of the show. When she finished the song, she left again for a minute. Her band appeared to have no idea of what was going on and we the audience were even more clueless. This was the only seam in an otherwise highly professional and totally enjoyable show. I love Joan's speaking voice and her easy manner: very warm, gracious and endearing. One notable departure for Joan was that she gave a little bit of history about a couple of the songs. There was an audience member who kept interrupting her with a request for Rosie and she said she wasn't planning on performing it but proceeded to explain what her long-time fans know: that she doesn't like to discuss why she wrote a song or what it is about. She went on to say that she'd recently broken with tradition on this tour. She repeatedly tried to squelch the interruptions (handling a rude fan is an art and she did very well) and finally had an opportunity to explain how she came to write Rosie. Told second-hand it's not such an interesting story but in essence it was inspired by a New York cabbie who took her on a tour of the city, which judging by my vague recollection of the lyrics, still doesnt explain much! Everyday Boy was prefaced by a touching story about Joan having met a young man who was HIV positive and admiring his courage and his compassion for the people who hated him for being afflicted. She finished with Willow, a audience sing-along piece typical of her old shows. The crowd loved Joan and her band: wild applause and standing ovations on virtually every number. Joan fills a hall with an emotion and intensity that is, to me, quite beyond the greatness of her songs and the expertise of her band. She is in possession of some sort of specialness that truly radiates. Maybe it's her passionate delivery and her sincerity. I'm not sure but she remains one of my all-time favorites. I won't miss another local show of hers ever again, if I can help it. Take good care, Gina NPIMH: Me, Myself, I (gotta get those old recordings on CD, or I'll burst!) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #338 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! 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