From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #325 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, July 27 1999 Volume 04 : Number 325 The Laborday JoniFest is happening this fall! For information: send a message to Join the mailing list at: ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: The 'REAL' Top 10 ... (VLJC) [Heather Galli ] Re: The 'REAL' Top 10 ... (VLJC) [jan gyn ] Re: The "REAL" Top 10 ... [DavinaGr@aol.com] Re: The 'REAL' Top 10 ... (NJC now) [catman ] Re: The Secret Of Life [Vince Lavieri ] ectofest 1999 (NJC) ["cjmacs" ] Re: Fairport's Chelsea Morning [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: Another Joni cover [philipf@tinet.ie] re: barangrill ["Takats, Angela" ] Re: The Secret Of Life NJC [RMuRocks@aol.com] re: Tracy Chapman [waytoblu@mindspring.com] VH-1 update [Randy Remote ] Re: You're The Most! [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Tracy Chapman NJC [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: Re: Top 10 (NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: WHY?? - Woodstock (NJC) [Randy Remote ] Re: VH-1 update [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: The 'REAL' Top 10 ... (VLJC) [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: The Secret Of Life [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Tracy Chapman (NJC) [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: The Secret Of Life ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Re: VH-1 update - thanks (NJC) [MGVal@aol.com] Re: VH-1 update - thanks (NJC) [Ginamu@aol.com] re: woodstock ["Takats, Angela" ] Was Tracy Chapman, Now Depression (VLJC) [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: woodstock ["Kakki" ] Re: VH-1 update - thanks (NJC) [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: woodstock ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Just a trick on ya & 'The Priest' ["Mary August" ] Joni in Music of The Millennium chart [Bounced Message ] new to the list [Bounced Message ] Re: The Priest [Bounced Message ] Re: scary movies (NJC) ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: The 'REAL' Top 10 ... (VLJC) ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Was Tracy Chapman, Now Depression (VLJC) [waytoblu@mindspring.com] Re: The Secret Of Life ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: woodstock ["Kakki" ] Re: Was Tracy Chapman, Now Depression (VLJC) ["Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: The 'REAL' Top 10 ... (VLJC) >Michael wrote regarding Don's choices: > >> Let me test your asbestos ;-): >> >> white 1. Joni Mitchell >> white 2. Stevie Nicks >> white 3. Madonna >> white 4. Carly Simon >> white 5. Bonnie Raitt >> white 6. Janis Joplin >> white 7. Grace Slick >> white 8. Mama Cass >> white 9. Christine McVie >> white 10. Chrissy Hynde >> >> Just an observation... (OK, not really *just* an observation.) > >O.K., just eliminate Stevie, Madonna and Mama Cass and substitute, Aretha, >Tina Turner and Etta James. ;-D > >And where the hell is Dusty Springfield anyway?! > And Laura Nyro?? Heather ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:24:16 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: The 'REAL' Top 10 ... (VLJC) At 06:20 PM 7/26/99 -0500, you wrote: >>Michael wrote regarding Don's choices: >>> Let me test your asbestos ;-): >>> >>> white 1. Joni Mitchell >>> white 2. Stevie Nicks >>> white 3. Madonna >>> white 4. Carly Simon >>> white 5. Bonnie Raitt >>> white 6. Janis Joplin >>> white 7. Grace Slick >>> white 8. Mama Cass >>> white 9. Christine McVie >>> white 10. Chrissy Hynde >>> Just an observation... (OK, not really *just* an observation.) >>O.K., just eliminate Stevie, Madonna and Mama Cass and substitute, Aretha, >>Tina Turner and Etta James. ;-D >> >>And where the hell is Dusty Springfield anyway?! >> >And Laura Nyro?? >Heather Patty Smith? Bjork? Hildegarde Von Bingen? - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:22:27 EDT From: DavinaGr@aol.com Subject: Re: The "REAL" Top 10 ... Flame retardent Don wrote: Okay, I think it's high time somebody put on their "Take that VH1!" hat, and made a real list of the Top Ten Women of Rock... Here's mine: 1) Joni Mitchell 2) Janis Joplin 3) Joan Armatrading 4) Stevie Nicks 5) Carole King 6) Rickie Lee Jones 7) Laura Nero 8) Grace Slick 9) Carly Simon 10) Etta James :-) Best, Davina NP: Stevie...Gold Dust Woman ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:40:31 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: The 'REAL' Top 10 ... (NJC now) What about tracy Chapman? Wonderful voice and writes all her own stuff. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:39:17 EDT From: SMEBD@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Muzak!!JC In a message dated 7/25/1999 7:19:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rustytrazom@hotmail.com writes: << Back to SF nest week, then immediately off to Eugene, OR to live with my partner (Brent) who is moving to the US from Japan so we can start a life together. Yeah, a commitment. Wish us luck!!! He is not a Joni fan (yet)but he'll be hearing plenty of her from the CD player and my hands on the piano!!! >> Russ, Best wishes to you and Brent--congratulations on your commitment to one another. There is work involved, but it is certainly worth the effort if you have found the right person. And not to worry, when my partner and I got together 8 years ago, he knew LOTC and that was about it. Now, he will make comment about Joni's style of guitar playing, or will question what a certain reference in a song means. Partners are really quite trainable--it is all in the approach. Best of luck! Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:41:52 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: to end the boom boom pachyderm thread In a message dated 7/23/99 1:54:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, guitarzan@saber.net writes: << Has no one heard of a double or triple entendre??? >> Not tonight, I'm too tired. ; ) Terry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:05:25 -0400 (EDT) From: PJT Subject: Re: The 'REAL' Top 10 ... (NJC now) Oh I love Tracy! "At This Point In My Life" rang bells for me. I saw her in a small venue in Coloardo before the last album. She was incredible! Pam - --- catman wrote: > What about tracy Chapman? Wonderful voice and writes > all her own stuff. > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:35:55 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: The Secret Of Life Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > The secret of life is hugely over-rated. It's not such a big deal. The > meaning of life is to get your genes into the next generation. See? > You knew that all along, right? > Sorry, I don't see. I am almost (but not quite totally) sterile and have been for almost all my adult life, after a low grade testicular infection. The odds that I would ever biologically sire a child are very slim. Then I am also gay, further reducing those odds. I have two adopted sons. I have a grandson and another on the way any day now. There is no genetic connection between me and them. My love is not determined by genes. I am not so sure that everyone's genes should be passed into the next generation anyway. The best part of the first part of my life was finding two boys abandoned by their genetic male sire and becoming their father. As my youngest has reverted to the patterns of his gene-giver, and has abandoned his son, to my great sorrow, the best part of this part of my life is loving my grandson and letting him know he is loved. My soon to be next grandchild is actually my grandson's mother's second child, this time by a different man than my son. So I will have someone new to love who again has no genetic connection to me. The secret of life is finding a child to love and passing that love into the next generation, if possible. By adoption, foster parenting, mentoring, being a good aunt or uncle, being a good neighbor, or whatever means one has at one's disposal. Any fuck, to be vulgar, can get genes into the next generation. I know Jim that is NOT what you meant for you love you family and that has been clear always. What I am saying is that the love extending into the next generation has nothing to do with genetics. I am glad that you are a father biologically, for I never will be, but the love that we both have for our children, and the love that I have for my grandchild and grandchild to be, and the love you will have for your grandchildren, is identical. Nothing to do with genetics at all. It is all about love. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:18:15 -0400 From: "cjmacs" Subject: ectofest 1999 (NJC) delurking after over two years of silence..... hi all! i'm sure absolutely NONE of you remember me since i haven't posted in over two years... although i do read the jmdl-digest faithfully through thick and thin! just thought i'd post this since some folks here are aware of happy rhodes and the ecto mailing list and/or are interested in seeing and hearing new and upcoming talent (and supporting two good causes while doing so!) hope to see some of you there! chuck *********************************** ECTOFEST 99 A music festival to benefit the Interfaith AIDS Ministry of Greater Danbury and the Women's Center of Greater Danbury Saturday, September 4, 1999 12 noon - 7 pm Kenosia Park, Danbury, CT Featuring: Rachael Sage Sloan Wainwright The Ectoplasms Rob Brerton Drama Chic and HAPPY RHODES (plus others to be announced) Admission is $10. Proceeds will go directly to the charities. Please see for more information. As the event draws closer, all the details will be posted there. - -- Info on advance ticket ordering Tickets will be available only at the venue. To reserve tickets in advance, email cjmacs@earthlink.net with your name, email address and the number of tickets needed. All reserved orders MUST BE RECEIVED by September 1st. All reserved orders will be confirmed by email. ******************************** peace through music! ******************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 01:42:00 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Fairport's Chelsea Morning Catgirl asked: > Catgirl NP- Chelsea Morning performed by the great Judy Dyble...what ever > happen to her??? She guests with Fairport Convention most years at their Cropredy bash. As far as I know these were the Joni tunes which featured in the Fairports repertoire: I Don't Know Where I Stand Chelsea Morning Night In the City Marcie Eastern Rain Both Sides Now Apparently a tape exists of Sandy Denny singing Marcie and Night In The City on a Radio One session in 1968. That's something I'd dearly love to hear. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 01:48:09 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Another Joni cover - ----- Original Message ----- From: > a couple of Christine Collister's > (I think you know how I feel about the divine Ms C Azeem, I've heard Same Situation but what other Joni tunes does the lovely Ms Collister sing ? Philip ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:01:20 +1000 From: "Takats, Angela" Subject: re: barangrill I just loved Lori's interpretation of Barangrill....it's wonderful and makes sense to me. I always saw Joni as one of the characters, but this version is lovely.......THANKS LORI <> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:13:21 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: The Secret Of Life NJC In a message dated 7/26/99 6:29:00 PM Central Daylight Time, revrvl@pathwaynet.com writes: << The secret of life is finding a child to love and passing that love into the next generation, if possible. By adoption, foster parenting, mentoring, being a good aunt or uncle, being a good neighbor, or whatever means one has at one's disposal. >> Very inspiring Rev! And also very true...it's funny, all the talk about religion here, this is really the essence of serving God - serving others and sharing love. And James Taylor says in his song "The Secret O' Life", it's also about enjoying the passage of time and that Einstein says we can never understand it all. Congratulations on your upcoming new addition to your family! Bob NP: Bruce Springsteen, "I'm On Fire" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:22:27 -0400 From: waytoblu@mindspring.com Subject: re: Tracy Chapman I had a very strange experience involving Tracy Chapman and have never been able to listen to her since. Back in 1996, Tracy Chapman was in town with the Charlie Hunter Quartet. My girlfriend(at the time), Jennifer, was supposed to be on the guest ist( she had been helping with promotions for the CHQ). When she found out she wasn't, she proceeded to get very upset(she is clinicly depressed). There were plenty of tickets to be had--I picked up a couple at half price from someone walking by, which( this makes no sense at all) caused Jennifer to be even more upset and she began walking off in the rain to find her way to the transit station, which was several miles away and she had no idea where she was headed. I proceeded to follow her to assure her safety(though she made it clear she didn't want me anywhere near her) since the ampitheatre is located in a part of town dangerous for a young, attractive woman to walk around in alone. Meanwhile it began to get dark as I continued walking in the middle of nowhere, by now completely soaked, following someone who was completely miserable and wanted me to be as well. This continued for two or three hours. The whole time, I could hear music coming from the ampitheatre, where we could have been sitting and enjoying the show in a kinder reality. Eventually, the show ended, we found the shuttle buses, and I escorted her home(still being told to go away), having experienced the most miserable evening in my life. For a long time after that hearing Tracy Chapman was somewhat disturbing though now I am just numb to her. I don't know if anyone has had a similar experience but I don't recommend getting involved with someone who suffers from deep depression. Victor NP: the fan in this unbearably hot Atlanta house ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:17:35 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: VH-1 update The correct time for the "100 Greatest Women of Rock" is 10PM Eastern (7 Pacific). New segment each night M-F. Joni will be on Friday's show. btw, VH-1's ad art for this is a copy of the Rolling Stones' "Some Girls" album art, with the women's faces, like one of those cheap wig ads. Joni, (sandwiched between Madonna and Stevie Nicks, fwiw) can be seen at http://vh1.com/100women/ it loads kinda slow. If you click on Joni's face, it goes to a brief bio of her career. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:25:23 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: You're The Most! In a message dated 7/26/99 2:31:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mwyarbro@zzapp.org writes: > The list wasn't of female vocalists, but of women in rock 'n' > roll. From what I can tell, all but one (Tina Weymouth of Talking > Heads) recorded lead vocal work, but some (like Carole King at > #10, Kim Gordon of Sonic Youth) were clearly considered based > on much more than their vocal work. I'm not at all sure about this but I believe Tina Weymouth sang lead at least sometimes with her band Tom-Tom Club. Take care, Gina ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:33:14 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: Tracy Chapman NJC In a message dated 7/26/99 8:19:00 PM Central Daylight Time, waytoblu@mindspring.com writes: << I had a very strange experience involving Tracy Chapman and have never been able to listen to her since. >> That's too bad Vic because that first album is a definite classic! I only had it on cassette and my wife & I used to wrestle it back and forth to play it in our respective autos. But that wasn't my point - my point was that I had a similar experience with Electric Light Orchestra. I was dating a girl and when ELO came to Greensboro NC I picked up two tickets to the show. She was bummed out when I told her because she had been grounded by her parents. So I took my friend Lee and we sat down and right as the show was about to start, she comes walking in with another guy (and she saw me as well)...ELO never sounded the same to me after that, but I do think about Liz every time I hear "Evil Woman"... Bob NP: Dylan "Lily & The Jack of Hearts" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:37:11 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Re: Top 10 (NJC) > > Always happy to hear you preach the Billie gospel... > > --Michael What can I say? The woman speaks to me on a very deep level. Joni is about the only other singer that goes that deep for me. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:39:22 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: WHY?? - Woodstock (NJC) "Takats, Angela" wrote: > Hey all, > All I can say is what the hell is wrong with my generation? I was so > disgusted to hear about the vandalism/looting/destruction that occured at > Woodstock '99 - > ....why have things changed? have they? Or was > did this kind of thing happen at the real Woodstock? At Woodstock in '69, a group of people "liberated" the food and burned down the stand of a food vender, in protest of unbridled capitalism, supposedly. Wavy Gravy refers to it on the record, and has mentioned it since. There are some people that remember Woodstock as a huge nightmare, others as a tremendous high. But there is alot that has changed. It's totally commercialized. A small bottle of water costs 4 bucks. After paying who knows how much to park, getting herded into busses, walked through chain link fence mazes, etc, etc, the feeling has got to be a bit different. The original Woodstock was out of control, the fences were down, but luckily it was peaceful. Woodstock '99 was all about control and profit. $60 for the pay per view! Attitudes are different, too. The band Korn was saying "F++k all that hippy sh+t, we came to kick ass!".... Still, I'm sure some of the young people there were there to try to experience a positive "love vibration, baby..." I'm rambling now.... I don't know.....I'm going up the country..... RR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:39:35 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: VH-1 update In a message dated 7/26/99 8:22:11 PM Central Daylight Time, guitarzan@saber.net writes: << If you click on Joni's face, it goes to a brief bio of her career. >> Hey Randy, thanks for the link...Joni sure does look cheesy with those bright red lips! For those without web access, here's what it says: Jazzing for Joni Joni Mitchell is the next name in our list of the greatest women of rock'n'roll. You'll have to watch VH1 beginning July 26th to find out the actual place she comes in. Traveling North America and Europe, Joni Mitchell not only wrote some of her best material, but also helped draw up the road map for music in general. She backed her pristine, high-pitched warble with unusual guitar tunings and folky strumming, and first gained a foothold in the Toronto cafe scene before taking her act to New York in 1967. An impressed David Crosby produced her self-titled debut, and the aspiring painter soon became muse to her Woodstock peers, missing the event but writing its anthem anyway. Her seminal 1971 recording Blue was both soulful and soul-baring, a pattern that would continue through For the Roses and Court & Spark. With intervals as wide as the Canadian prairies where she spent her youth, she sang of wishful escapism ("River"), stripped sap and pretension from love songs ("A Case of You") and suggested that even the most ordinary details were full of meaning ("The Last Time I Saw Richard"): "Richard got married to a figure skater, and he bought her a dishwasher and a coffee percolator," she sang, at once meditating on the fleeting past and pointing to the dull materialism of the American Dream. These records formed the basis of Mitchell's reputation as a clever, inward-looking lyricist and as the quintessential feminine voice of the early '70s. It was when she began deconstructing that status, turning her high-powered scrutiny outward on 1975's pan-global The Hissing of Summer Lawns, that some listeners bristled. When she took her craft to the next level, experimenting with a jazzier sound on Hejira and Mingus, rock fans felt slighted. Even so, her work with terminally-ill bass great Charles Mingus was a unique cross-pollination of her quirky lyrics and his own serpentine melodies. Like most of Mitchell's work, it's worth a second listen and far more. The '80s found Mitchell on her friend David Geffen's label, calling in science-blinded electronica specialist Thomas Dolby for a round on Dog Eat Dog. Not until 1991's Night Ride Home and 1994's Turbulent Indigo, however, did she revisit Blue's poetic intimacy and regain the critical and commercial territory she'd ceded with her "overambitious" projects. She had adequate cause, then, to be underwhelmed by an industry that sometimes views innovation and intelligence as liabilities. Much of her time was spent in her "box of paints," covering a different canvas and answering to the real demands of Art. Prince, Madonna, and Courtney Love praised her influence; Judy Collins and Amy Grant sang her songs with more success than she'd enjoyed. Her prodigious body of work was anthologized in 1996 as Hits and Misses, and like many of her lyrics, the joke was all too true. For a songwriter of her talent, for a musician of her range, for a woman of her intuition and social consciousness, the Misses should have been Hits, the Hits should have been bigger, and the largeness of the whole has yet to be rounded. Joshua Perry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:42:04 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: The 'REAL' Top 10 ... (VLJC) In a message dated 7/26/99 6:24:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jgyn@muse.sfusd.k12.ca.us writes: << Patty Smith? Bjork? Hildegarde Von Bingen? >> Jonatha Brooke?? Terry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:49:33 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: The Secret Of Life In a message dated 7/26/99 7:28:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, revrvl@pathwaynet.com writes: << The secret of life is finding a child to love and passing that love into the next generation, if possible. >> Amen to that, Rev. I've been blessed with two children who are not biologically mine. I only hope that the love they've been given will continue to flow through their children, regardless of how they come into their lives. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:56:49 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Tracy Chapman (NJC) In a message dated 7/26/99 9:18:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, waytoblu@mindspring.com writes: << I don't know if anyone has had a similar experience but I don't recommend getting involved with someone who suffers from deep depression. >> I''m sorry you had that experience, but to say one shouldn't get involved with someone who suffers from deep depression is like saying stay away from diabetics. There is treatment available that can be a godsend for those living with depression, which is highly treatable. Goodness sakes, man! Terry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:05:17 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: The Secret Of Life > > << The secret of life is finding a child to love and passing that love into > the next generation, if possible. >> > > Amen to that, Rev. I've been blessed with two children who are not > biologically mine. I only hope that the love they've been given will continue > to flow through their children, regardless of how they come into their lives. > > Terry This is a lovely sentiment and I don't meant to take anything away from it but....sometimes adults that maybe didn't get that love as children need it just as badly. It seems to me that the secret of life is to love. Period. Mark in Seattle > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:04:15 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: VH-1 update - thanks (NJC) In a message dated 7/27/99 2:45:19 AM, RMuRocks@aol.com wrote: <> Just a quick note to thank you for sending this on. MG - garage door-less, a/c less, web-less, the list goes on and on NP: "sitting up waiting for my sugar to show...." C/S ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:18:58 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: VH-1 update - thanks (NJC) In a message dated 7/26/99 10:09:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, MGVal@aol.com writes: > MG - garage door-less, a/c less, web-less, the list goes on and on > > NP: "sitting up waiting for my sugar to show...." C/S > Aaaaaah, but Mary Grace, you are not Joni-less and that's all that really matters, isn't it? ; ) Take care, Gina NP: Tracy Chapman - all this Tracy talk gave me a hankerin' for that debut album...one great song after another! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:36:04 +1000 From: "Takats, Angela" Subject: re: woodstock RR wrote: << It's totally commercialized. A small bottle of water costs 4 bucks. After paying who knows how much to park, getting herded into busses, walked through chain link fence mazes, etc, etc, the feeling has got to be a bit different. The original Woodstock was out of control, the fences were down, but luckily it was peaceful. Woodstock '99 was all about control and profit. $60 for the pay per view! >> Yeah, but I just don't think that that's enough reason to destroy other people's property. I think too many teenagers want "everything for nothing" and this mentality means they get the shits when they have to pay or do something for something in return...I'm not saying the prices for Woodstock '99 were right, but that's life...we have to pay for things, we have to work for things. And resorting to violence doesn't help prove any point they may have had. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:40:51 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Was Tracy Chapman, Now Depression (VLJC) In a message dated 7/26/99 10:00:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TerryM2442@aol.com writes: > I''m sorry you had that experience, but to say one shouldn't get involved > with someone who suffers from deep depression is like saying stay away from > diabetics. There is treatment available that can be a godsend for those > living with depression, which is highly treatable. Goodness sakes, man! > Thank you, Terry, once again you rise to the occasion when reason is in order! So much more is known about depression now as a true biological imbalance that can be treated. So unfortunate that people still look upon those with depression as individuals to avoid. Some of the best and most talented writers, thinkers, artists and musicians are or were at one time affected by depression (perhaps an over-generalization, I'm not sure). Depression apparently influenced Joni's work on Blue. Reading the work of one of my favorite writers, Margaret Atwood, it's obvious that she struggles with depression. My favorite poet Anne Sexton was the oddest sort of psychotic, eventually taking her own life. Emily Dickinson is thought to have suffered from depression. The list goes on and on. As far as medication goes, there has been some discussion in psychiatry and psychology circles (and Terry you would be the expert here) about how medication to treat depression can affect the creative process of really talented, depressed people whose best work was done when they were in the thick of it. Regardless of how talented, creative and successful an individual may be, however, I don't think anyone enjoys the suffering, the really intense emotional pain that is part and parcel of the disease. I've sometimes wondered if creative people who suffer from depression are willing to make a tradeoff in inspiration for a more balanced and happier life through medication. Food for thought. Certainty for the average person, medication has done wonders and even at times, provided miraculous changes which allow people to work, love and grow. Now all we need is a change in society's mind-set toward depression. Take care, Gina NP: Tape tree # whatever it is...just got it in...the Second Fret, etc...breathy young Joan...amazing that I can listen to this!!! Thank you, Brian Gross, for dubbing this for me! And why did no one at my house tell me earlier I had a package??? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:36:25 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: woodstock I was wondering when this thread would begin on the Joni list. It's been all over other lists I'm on all day and the people posting are overwhelmingly appalled by it all. There have been various other reports of people camping out in residents yards and entering their homes uninvited, skinheads showing up with carloads of guns, and firsthand reports of some of the performers actually spurring on the crowd to destruction. Maybe I'm just an old frump these days but I am horrified by it all, especially in connection with a music event. Angela wrote: > Yeah, but I just don't think that that's enough reason to destroy other > people's property. I think too many teenagers want "everything for nothing" > and this mentality means they get the shits when they have to pay or do > something for something in return... I have to concur - I've noticed this all too often, and not only in some teenagers but also in some adults. There seems to be such a sense of conscience-less entitlement in our culture these days. I have my theories on why but don't have the energy this week to get into long debates about it ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:09:03 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: VH-1 update - thanks (NJC) In a message dated 7/26/99 9:57:34 PM Central Daylight Time, Ginamu@aol.com writes: << Tracy Chapman - all this Tracy talk gave me a hankerin' for that debut album...one great song after another! >> Yes indeedy, along with Suzanne Vega's debut they satisfied me in a way that Joni's late 80's stuff didn't... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:30:07 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: woodstock > > Yeah, but I just don't think that that's enough reason to destroy other > > people's property. I think too many teenagers want "everything for > nothing" > > and this mentality means they get the shits when they have to pay or do > > something for something in return... So many people dislike 'The Windfall (Everything for Nothing)' from 'Night Ride Home' but isn't this what the song is all about? > I have to concur - I've noticed this all too often, and not only in some > teenagers but also in some adults. There seems to be such a sense of > conscience-less entitlement in our culture these days. I have my theories > on why but don't have the energy this week to get into long debates about it > ;-) > > Kakki > I think it's sad that this event is the one to carry the name Woodstock. So much for Peace & Music. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:29:31 -0700 From: "Mary August" Subject: Re: Just a trick on ya & 'The Priest' >Subject: Re: Just a trick on ya & 'The Priest' Interesting commentary on The Priest. Any chance there's something else going on at the same time, a one night affair?: And his eyes looked into my eyes so far Whenever the words ran dry (snip) And his eyes said me and his eyes said you And my eyes said let us try (snip) He reached past the wine for my hand to hold And he saw me young and he saw me old And he saw me sitting there (snip) And he asked for only now Of course, they were at the airport bar so there was a flight to catch... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:51:03 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Joni in Music of The Millennium chart From: philipf@tinet.ie Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 01:40:48 +0100 here's another place to vote for your favourite artist - Music Of The Millennium. Madonna's slightly ahead of Aretha in this one. Joni's at number 10. http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/motm/ Philip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:48:57 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: new to the list From: "nadine nixson-revolks" Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:58:26 -0500 Hi everyone!! My name is Phil and I'm new to the list. I'm a musician and a total Joni fan. I've loved her since STAS. I was a drummer at the time and that album inspired me to start playing acoustic guitar. I owe her a great debt of gratitude for that. I look forward to talking Joni with others on the list Phil Murphy for our on-line catalog and vdubs for sale visit our web site at http://www.tcac.net/~revolks/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:49:33 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: The Priest Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:51:21 -0700 From: Casey Certis-Milby Lots to think about in Siresorrow's post. I wanted to add that when I read here on the list (some time ago?) that this song was about Leonard Cohen it all clicked for me. I played it over with goose bumps and a big "of course." Not that I now have deep insight, but: > she sees a disparity between the church's paradox of separating > the human and the divine. > Much of Cohen's poetry and prose was focused on this very issue - "Beautiful Losers" especially comes to mind with its contemplations of Catherine Tekakwitha (a Native American who was "converted" and now a saint), and sainthood, and magic/God. And maybe related to the "more and more... less and less", Cohen called saints "balancing monsters of love." Cohen also wrote a great deal about Germans - not in light of their philosophy, but in terms of the Holocaust, pogroms, etc. One of his volumes of poetry is titled Flowers for Hitler. Confession not only ties in with (Catholic) priesthood, but figures prominently in Cohen's work. He "makes his confession to them" in Sisters of Mercy and uses both the word and the concept again and again in his songs and poetry. None of this is to dispute the thoughtful ideas posted here already, but just to say that if it is about Cohen, many of the images have outside references as well as her own internal meanings Joni was expressing. Casey What I'm Doing Here Leonard Cohen I do not know if the world has lied I have lied I do not know if the world has conspired against love I have conspired against love The atmosphere of torture is no comfort I have tortured Even without the mushroom cloud still I would have hated Listen I would have done the same things even if there were no death I will not be held like a drunkard under the cold tap of facts I refuse the universal alibi Like an empty telephone booth passed at night and remembered like mirrors in a movie palace lobby consulted only on the way out like a nymphomaniac who binds a thousand into strange brotherhood I wait for each of you to confess ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 16:40:37 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: scary movies (NJC) Colin wrote: >On eof the scariest films I remember seeing, when a teen, was Wait Until >Dark, with Audrey Hepburn playing a blind woman stalked by a drug >trafficer. I have very vivid memories about a B- (possible D-!) grade horror I watched with my sister one night when I was about 10. It was called "Welcome to Arrow Beach" and was about a Vietnam vet who was shot down and had to eat his fellow soldiers to survive, and hence had a "taste" for human flesh. He worked as a photographer after the war and would lure attractive women up to his studio from the beach, where he would photograph them, then slaughter them. The two most distinct memories are of a huge backdrop in his studio, hiding a cold-storage room full of carcasses, and an extreme close-up of one of his victims eating a nice juicy rare steak! 23 years later, and I can still picture that scene! Both my sister and I were too scared to go to bed until our parents came home - and she was 20 at the time! Needless to say, she wasn't too popular with Mum and Dad, and it was the last horror movie I watched (or was allowed to watch) for quite some time!!! Helen - back in the land of the living after ANOTHER dose of the 'flu, which the doctor thought might be chicken pox - weird! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 16:52:50 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: The 'REAL' Top 10 ... (VLJC) Alan wrote: >I'll bite... but let me qualify my list as being the top ten popular or not >so popular singer/songwriters of the feminine persuasion. > >1- Joni Mitchell, of course... >2- Bonnie Raitt... wish i could play slide like that >3- Beth Neilson Chapman... check her out...great piano >4- Carole King... goes without saying >5- Sarah MacLachlan... sometimes a bit formula... but some great songs >6- Billie Holiday... dead but never forgotten >7- Joan Armatrading... love her ballads & her rockers >8- Stevie Nicks... sexy, sultry voice >9- Sade... more sexy, more sultry >10- Shawn Colvin... what can I add? > >Perhaps I broke my own rules... does either Stevie or Sade do any writing? >I don't know for sure. Or Billie? Stevie Nicks definitely does her own writing - it was one of the reasons she embarked on a solo career while still with Fleetwood Mac. 2 or 3 songs every couple of years, ie. on one album, wasn't enough since she was writing so many. Not sure about Sade, but I THINK (definitely could be wrong) she co-wrote with one of her band members. I thought about submitting my own list in response to this and the VH-1 list, but it seems pointless, since we're all going to have a different one, other than Joni being first, of course! BTW, were Melissa Etheridge and The Indigo Girls mentioned anywhere? I must admit, I did a quick scan, and now can't find the site to check. And I definitely agree with Kakki - where, oh where, was Dusty! Helen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 01:05:47 -0400 From: waytoblu@mindspring.com Subject: Re: Was Tracy Chapman, Now Depression (VLJC) Gina writes: > >So much more is known about depression now as a true biological imbalance >that can be treated. So unfortunate that people still look upon those with >depression as individuals to avoid. I didn't intend to imply that I avoid people with depression. I have friends who suffer from depression, have dealt with depression myself, and one of my favorite singersongwriters Nick Drake, who I dedicated my cd to, suffered from severe depression his whole life, which unfortunately ended at 26, with an overdose of depressant medication. What I said was I wouldn't get romantically involved with someone who was seriously depressed, which is a choice I choose to make though I know you can't always tell who you will fall in love with. I certainly don't avoid people with any illnesses, depression or disabilities. I have a close friend who has suffered from schizophrenia and believes he was given shocktreatment and had experiments performed on him as a child by these mysterious people who are part of a big conspiracy and he can talk for hours about this and you can tell he completely believes everything he is saying. I have some close friends who are alcholics. I love them and care about them but I wouldn't want to get involved with them romantically. Victor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 17:02:16 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: The Secret Of Life Rev Vince wrote: >The secret of life is finding a child to love and passing that love into >the next generation, if possible. By adoption, foster parenting, >mentoring, being a good aunt or uncle, being a good neighbor, or whatever >means one has at one's disposal. This was so well-written, I couldn't agree more! I decided, quite some time ago, not to have children. Does that make my life worth less than someone who gets pregnant "accidentally" then decides they might as well have the kid anyway - then does a piss-poor job of raising that child? And believe me, there are a lot of parents out there like that - I see it every day around where I live! I have a niece and nephew, who I see regularly, and that's quite enough for me. I love them to death, and I believe I'm contributing to their development in many ways. I am so SICK of hearing that my life is worthless because I don't/won't have children! Sorry, I started getting a little angry, but a person's contribution to society is not based on how many children they have, and if that ever becomes the standard, then we're in for a lot of trouble. I understand the basic biological need for a species to procreate, but not every member needs to do so in order for the species to survive - does the term "natural selection" ring any bells? Sorry again, I'm getting sarcastic, but I'd be a terible mother - I'm far too selfish, just ask the cat!!! Helen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:45:26 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: woodstock As always, Mark, you are right there with the perfect Joni reference! > So many people dislike 'The Windfall (Everything for Nothing)' from > 'Night Ride Home' but isn't this what the song is all about? I love this song and think it is brilliant. It's not a pretty song at all, but I think she made it deliberately ugly in a way, almost like she would not honor the subject matter by making it attractive melodically. And she just sounds so perfectly pissed and disgusted in it. I love the biting lyrics - she says it so well - especially this verse: "Oh, I'm tangled in your lies Your scam Your spider web Spit spun between the trees Doors slam You want my head You'd eat your young alive For a Jaguar in the drive You lie too much You lie too badly You want everything for nothing" Tell it, Joni! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 17:19:47 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Was Tracy Chapman, Now Depression (VLJC) Terry wrote: >> I''m sorry you had that experience, but to say one shouldn't get involved >> with someone who suffers from deep depression is like saying stay away >from >> diabetics. There is treatment available that can be a godsend for those >> living with depression, which is highly treatable. Goodness sakes, man! Then Gina wrote: >Thank you, Terry, once again you rise to the occasion when reason is in order! > >So much more is known about depression now as a true biological imbalance >that can be treated. So unfortunate that people still look upon those with >depression as individuals to avoid. > >Some of the best and most talented writers, thinkers, artists and musicians >are or were at one time affected by depression I have to jump in here again - I'll try not to let my emotions get the better of me! My father sufferered greatly from depression, and was on medication most of his adult life. I can still remember the 3 hour car-trips to another city for his shock treatments, when I was about 6. He would drive us there, Mum would drive us back while he slept/gazed out the window. My mother always said it was such a shame I didn't really know him before he had these, since the treatments changed his whole personality. But after saying that, he was a happy, extremely intelligent (a PH.D and nominated for a Rhodes Scholarship to Oxford) and loving father. On a side-note - I still remember the day I bought my first Joni Mitchell album (WTRF in 1983). He asked what I had bought as I got into the car, and I was thinking "he won't have a clue" since he was heavily into light opera (Gilbert & Sullivan, etc. - definitely not my cup of tea!) and he said "Oh, I've heard of Joni Mitchell! I like some of her songs!" He could always surprise the hell out of me! Yes, he suffered from depression, but like any disease, it can be treated - and in my father's case, successfully treated. The irony is that he died about 13 years ago from an infection which got into his spinal column, then brain (started, believe it or not, by a boil on his elbow). The doctors thought his problems were psychological, and put him in the psychiatric ward of the hospital. By the time they realised it was the infection in his brain, not the depression, he had lost 90% use of his lungs, and died two days after they transferred him to intensive care. That's probably not relevant to this discussion, but my fighting blood starts to simmer when I hear people saying that people with depression should be avoided! I'd hate to think what the first 20 years of my life would have been like without my father - I just he was still around around for the next 20 or 40. Helen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:50:30 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: scary movies (NJC) On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:17:59 +0800 (CST) Joseph Palis wrote: > ...It was a different kind of scary -- what is not seen makes > one's imaginations go berserk with scary possibilities. Normally I don't like to watch scary movies - I feel like I have enough strange things in my head without adding the strange things dreamed up by other people - but there was one scary movie that I really liked and would watch again - The Shining. I think I liked it because there was always enough light to see what was going on. It was scary but it wasn't. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 02:37:35 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: The Secret Of Life NJC In a message dated 7/27/99 1:07:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hell@ihug.co.nz writes: << The secret of life is finding a child to love and passing that love into >the next generation, if possible. By adoption, foster parenting, >mentoring, being a good aunt or uncle, being a good neighbor, or whatever >means one has at one's disposal. >> please use NJC for this thread. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #325 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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