From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #309 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Wednesday, July 14 1999 Volume 04 : Number 309 The Laborday JoniFest is happening this fall! For information: send a message to Join the mailing list at: ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Plugged or unplugged (NJC) [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: (NJC) Joni and her many men [Susan Chaloner ] dog eat dog, and '80s joni again. [evian ] (SJC) philosophies/spiritual preference [Krys & Geoff ] Re: UK JMDL meeting [Howard Wright ] "They'll never know where ONE is!" [Howard Wright ] Re: dog eat dog, and '80s joni again. [Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluorda] Re: NJC:Dory Previn [Jerry Notaro ] Joni in GLAMOUR magazine & David Lahm Interview [mann@chicagonet.net] Plugged or Unplugged? (NJC) ["Paul Castle" ] Hunter, The Good Samaritan [Steve Dulson ] ["Alison Einerson" ] Re: dog eat dog, and '80s joni again. [Mark Domyancich ] cookbook [Jerry Notaro ] "And the nominations are..." (NJC) ["Paul Castle" ] NJC Stink bombs [Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.com] Joni and her VG8 [Heather Galli ] God & man; Joni/many lovers; Circle Game Revisited ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Gay? [Don Rowe ] Re: Gay? [Heather Galli ] RE: Gay? ["Brett Code" ] Re: God & man; Joni/many lovers; Circle Game Revisited (now NJC) [Don Row] dog eat dog, and '80s joni again [Bounced Message ] Re: Gay? [Jason Maloney ] Today in Joni History - July 15 [Today in Joni History ] Re: Today in Joni History - July 15 [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Gay? ["Ken (Slarty)" ] Re: God & man; Joni/many lovers; Circle Game Revisited (now NJC) ["Ca] Re: "And the nominations are..." (NJC) ["Kakki" ] stinkbombs (njc) ["patrick leader" ] Re: "And the nominations are..." (NJC) [Jason Maloney ] Re: Gay? NJC [Brian Gross ] Re: UK Joni Party? [pyramus ] Re: stinkbombs (njc) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:04:45 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Plugged or unplugged (NJC) - ----- Original Message ----- From: >Many people post here to share their enthusiasms and I simply assumed > that Peter Holmstedt was doing the same in a manner slightly more formal than > the rest of us. > An information service about indie releases is certainly a worthy thing to do but indie or not, these records should be reviewed on the same basis as any other release. They cost the same. I'd recommend a little more balance in the plug of the week reviews. I mean every week dosen't bring a great new discovery or a record that you can't live without. Even Sgt Pepper had a dud track. Maybe some kind of rating system would avoid so many of us confusing the plugs with advertisement of the week. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:33:16 -0700 From: Susan Chaloner Subject: Re: (NJC) Joni and her many men Penny wrote: > Even the one I sent as a private reply to Susan LA that she posted to > the list. I have found your tone extremely hostile right from your first response to me which by the way I did not go looking for...and this response is no exception...in fact it seems to me your hostily is esculating...do you call that 'still wishing all peace?' Your response has been without exception out of proportion to the situation...Once again I ask: What is so frightening for you about me? If I sent a reply to the list that should have been private I am truly sorry...I don't recall doing so and it certainly would not have been intentional...but it would be now...I would not be comfortable conversing with you without witnesses... Let's just do the Peace okay? There's room for everyone here: including you and I. Susan L.A. Honey McBabe-"...is it only books and words or do you really feel it?..."-that Joni :~) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:34:04 -0700 From: Susan Chaloner Subject: Re: Great thoughtful comments Hi Lover Boy! > > Don's ears > > must be burning ;~) > > > Well something's certainly burning, but ah, I don't > think it's my ears ... Well it can't be your foreskin man...if you're a good jewish boy you don't have one...All the better sez I! There won't be any wearing you out in two hours flat ;~D > man, and to think I wake up > from my dead faint over Kakki's admission that she > actually likes DED best of the 80s albums to find this > cheerful bit of mail. You must have missed my other love notes...that'll teach you to delete...now you'll have to retreive them from the archives if you want them :~D > Maybe there is hope for this > little enclave yet! Thanks a million. You're welcome tenfold! There always is hope! I'm always hoping that I'll wake up one day to the strains of Dancin' Clown coming up the creek in this little town that did ;~) Susan L.A. Honey McBabe-"...I'm in no hurry now I got a pretty good ride but it's Good to know where I'm bound See you in the big town..."-Ashley Cleveland ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 01:37:57 -0600 From: evian Subject: dog eat dog, and '80s joni again. > get a life > We HAVE a life... life began once we found out that Joni came down from the prairies to tell us how to live. I really don't know what I did before Joni... Life is so fulfilling now that I spend my time on street corners passing out HOSL and DED (our versions of Old and New Testaments). It is especially pleasing to go door to door in my clunky shoes and suit and spread the word of Joni to the neighborhood at 8 am on Saturday mornings... you're darn right! > joni dosent want to be worshiped > Well, if you look at "Talk to Me", from the holy album DJRD, we see that she is calling out for us to talk to her.... the song "Talk to Me" reaffirms this. Please brush up on the complete lyrics and poems... it shows the error of people's ways. I too once was lost, but now I am found... I now know that Joni's chicken skawking is proof that she indeed wants us to worship her. Fill out the form in the back of the lyrics books, and a team of jmdlers will be on your door on Saturday morning to help lead you to our secret place. > you people who think she > can do no wrong well she like any artist has put out her share of stink > bombs. > Only stink bombs Joni has put out were after too many tequila anachondas followed by a hang-over meal of that apples and pork thing. > Dont worship the ground she walks > on, strive to be a light as bright as her > If we do that, then it's another Tower of Babbel, and then next thing you know.... more Jewels coming outta the woodwork! UGH! I shudder.... It's best we all keep quiet and do as Joni says, not as Joni does. > Remember every picture has > its shadows. > To look at it from our Joni cult perspective, they also have some source of light..... Let's all join hands now and sing, peoples! Evian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:36:48 +0100 From: Krys & Geoff Subject: (SJC) philosophies/spiritual preference In message , Susan Chaloner writes >Penny wrote: > >> It's always very interresting to me when people get up in arms at the >> mere mention of God or Jesus. > >I'm not up in arms at all if you were referring to me...I simply don't >agree that The Great Spirit, God, Jesus, Buddha wish> has any need to judge... Susan, forgive me if I don't copy your response here - I wanted to write a few thoughts of my own to the group because I often see discussions like the current one, and inevitably it ends up a bit fraught. As a pagan and a witch, I try to avoid dogma. I formed my own ideas on life and the probability of a greater power than I as I grew from a child to where I am now, and I still haven't set my ideas in stone because IMO life is one big, long learning experience. I hope I never shall come to the point where I stop learning. My own philosophy of peace and compassion, of trying to understand others as best I can and of never saying to someone else their beliefs are wrong is something that is part of me, not an add-on. Sometimes it's hard to live by my own code - as Catman says, we all have egos, and without them we would not be here as human beings - ask any psychologist. And this world can be so crazy, because of the people in it who hate, who fight, who want more than they can have, and those things upset me and offend my personal code. But whatever our individual or collective "rights" or "wrongs" (and everything is subjective) there is a beauty and greatness in human beings that I meet often - as on this list - and despite the fact that some of us will inevitably fall out with others at some point, I believe the important thing is to accept that we each are as different as one snowflake from another, and that it is these differences that make each of us unique and therefore special. It's hard to bring spiritual beliefs into an arena and receive universal support, as it's a personal and therefore sensitive subject. I get judged sometimes for what I am. Judgement often comes from lack of understanding and/or fear of the unknown, and I've learned that no matter what I say some folk will never want to believe I am anything but "bad" because they hone in on the label and the negative associations they have been fed rather than the person behind that label. I consider it's their problem to sort out, not mine. I know who I am, and what I am, and am secure in that. I follow the basic wiccan rede, "If it harm none, do what you will" and therefore I have to be aware of the consequences of my actions, words and thoughts. This, I hope, means I at least check myself before I act in a way that might hurt another, and therefore it means I have to put myself in another person's shoes, which is no bad thing. I'm not a "goody goody", I'm not perfect, I'm an ordinary person who feels; I try hard not to behave towards someone else in a way I would not wish to be treated myself. Do as you would be done by I suppose. I expect I've wandered far from the original point raised in the previous mails, but I just wanted to share a few thoughts with people and hope that whatever our personal beliefs and differences, we can all agree that we are here together because of our *similarities*, i.e. our love of Joni's music, and that because of it we have a chance to learn about others different from ourselves - which in itself is, IMO, a great privilege if only we can see it that way. Thanks for the bandwidth folks. Love and peace, Krys XXXX ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:25:55 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Joni and her many men.... Ange wrote: >I've been wanting to write this post for awhile.....wanting to know how >JMDLers felt about this issue....What do we think about Joni and her many >men? I've heard people joke >about how she went thru Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young - and Taylor, and >maybe Cohen and does the list go on?....And after reading things about her, >I sometimes struggle to defend her I'm a bit late jumping on this band-wagon - been bed-ridden with a horrible dose of the flu, which started out as just a cold, so I ended up with both sets of symptoms. Joy!!! Anyway, has it occurred to anyone else that maybe the reason everyone makes so much out of Joni's former lovers/partners/significant others, is that many of them have been well-known in their own right, eg. Crosby, Nash, Taylor, Cohen, etc.? If she had only been with "unknown" men, would it have been such a big deal? Just my point of view, but I've never thought she had an unduly large number of men - I know women who've had twice as many, at half the age (myself NOT included!). The fact that she also never "committed" in the established sense of the word, ie. marriage (excepting Chuck and Larry), probably also contributed to the general opinion? And who else is she going to meet on the road all the time in the early days - Crosby, Nash, Taylor, Cohen, etc., etc.! I'm not flaming at all, or criticising Joni, don't get me wrong. It actually doesn't surprise me that she never "settled down" - a musician's life is in many cases a fairly turbulent one, with touring and weird recording hours. I just get a little miffed at the criticism she gets for having had a few different men in her life. And I think she is an extremely complex woman - you just have to look at her different albums to realise that - if she did just settle down with one person, I'd be worried that her music would get a little stale also. Who knows, maybe she thinks so too!? Anyway, like I said, I don't want to offend anyone, just wanted to have my say! Helen - slowly recovering from multiple lurgies - and re-reading this post before sending, I realise the brain cells are not quite functioning yet, as they used too - I hope I made sense! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:25:22 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: Re: UK JMDL meeting From: catman >Okay, several positve responses now. Please respond to this message if >you are willing to meet here in March. Even if you already did. I will >then post a list of those who want to come. A weekend is not problem for >those who cannot make a weekday. Put me down as a definite maybe ;-) A weekend would definitely suit me better. I'd be happy to bring a guitar to strum and a bottle of malt whisky to share. I'll be changing jobs and moving house next week - leaving Edinburgh and heading down to Malvern, near Worcester. I'll probably have to unsubscribe from this list for a while and will have intermittent email contact for a few weeks, but if I'm lucky I'll be able to keep in touch and find out how the UK meeting shapes up. Not sure how far it is from Worcester to Colin's place, but I think it should be easy enough by train. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:32:30 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: "They'll never know where ONE is!" I think this is the quote that Joni gave, describing Wayne Shorter's reaction to some of the music on TTT, i.e that some people would not be sure where the downbeats were. For some of the new songs I can understand this - where there are no drums or supporting instruments, and it is just guitar vocals and a little keyboard, Joni's off-beat rhythms really show up strongly. The funny thing is, it looks like the people who wrote the piano parts for the songs in the TTT songbook got a bit lost too. In "Facelift", a few bars into the first verse, the time signature changes from 4/4 to 5/4 for one bar, back to 4/4, then to 3/4 for one bar, then back to 4/4 for the rest of the song. Maybe Joni's "weird" accents threw them off the scent?!? To my ears, it sounds like straight 4/4 all the way through ... The rhythms in the songbook for "Stay in touch" also don't read the same way that I hear them - it's like everything has been shifted back an eighth note. That Joni ... always out to get us with her "weird chords" and "weird rhythms" ... but dont'cha just love'em?! Howard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:34:46 -0400 From: Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: dog eat dog, and '80s joni again. Shawn, a poor misguided 15-year old boy, sneaks onto his mother's computer and writes: <> First off, for directing this missive to one of the sweetest and fairest members of this community, go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not listen to Joni. Second, let's make a deal...we'll all get lives, you return to 6th grade and learn how to PUNCTUATE A SENTENCE!!! (In best Sam Kinison voice) :~D Seriously, I was baffled to say the least at this comment. Escaping this kind of attitude and lack of understanding is the reason most of us are here... Bob, who's already such a bright light his Dad calls him "Sun" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:43:19 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: NJC:Dory Previn Librarian here. Dory's autobiography Midnight Baby is a must read. Sadly, she is an overlooked talent all around. Jerry np: JM - Sydney, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:12:41 -0500 From: mann@chicagonet.net Subject: Joni in GLAMOUR magazine & David Lahm Interview Found Joni in the new August issue of Glamour magazine. Page160. Under the heading, "Watch-worthy Women Female Forces to Recon With.......Women Rock!" "11 Mighty Musical Mamas Call them rock 'n' roll models: In the new five-part television special, THE 100 GREATEST WOMEN OF ROCK N ROLL, VH1 is giving the divas their due. For this tribute, which airs in five one-hour segmants nightly from July 26 to July 30, VH1 asked more than 300 prominent women----even Hillary Rodham Clinton!- to vote for the one hundred homage-worthy heroines who've rocked their world. Here, 11 of Glamour's favorites, with VH1's rankings" Joni is listed as #5.....young joni picture "This singer-songwriter reshaped the role of female folkie" Also, found this.......don't know how long it's been up http://www.downbeatjazz.com/sections/home/text/default.asp a short interview with David Lahm under the heading TAKING ON JONI from DownBeat Jazz online http://www.downbeatjazz.com/sections/news/text/article.asp?from=&id1=8453&id2=8323 The following sentence has NO JONI CONTENT: If anyone is interested in winning a Sony Playstation or other related stuff..........email me. This is pretty much guaranteed a win of little stuff......like a Playstation hint card or dogtag. Those of you with playstations will appreciate this.............it does take some time to do tho...... Anyone interested.........email me privately. Laura ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:20:37 +0100 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: Plugged or Unplugged? (NJC) Peter Holmstedt wrote >I am not making a dime on this, I am only doing it for the sheer >joy and profound love of music that's out there! Good to know >I've had this question tons of times before > - - but you sound a little weary of having to tell people. Don't forget there are newcomers like me arriving here all the time. Perhaps, if you were to include something in your signature to the effect that these are "unsolicited comments inspired only by your enthusiasm for the artist", it would be easier to believe that these are not spam. Since (recently at least) you don't seem to post anything relating to Joni Mitchell, it is a fairly natural assumption (for those who don't know you better) to think that you are 'using' the list for less than altruistic purposes. Whatever, I am pleased to hear I'm not being spammed but, I admit, rather disappointed that my little ruse to boost the coffers of the WallyB Fundraiser has failed dismally!! :-) ;-) etc etc. Unless, of course, the lady who used the JMDL to promote her 'sex talk' services recently made a killing on this list and feels obliged to pay back!!! PaulC PS. No, I didn't even take a look! Honest guv! PPS In case you're not in when I call you later, the address is: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA 01983 (she'll take cheques payable to Wally Breese and large bundles of unmarked $20 dollar bills (but she sent back my green stamps, tequilla, and two dozen luncheon vouchers dating from 1968!! PPPS Come to think of it, she kept the tequila!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:58:52 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Hunter, The Good Samaritan Casey >Now I am asking for any other >pertinent information those of you so well versed in Joni may be able to >add. I have been a fan for more than 30 years, and am looking for >anything that might help me place it and break this weird deja vu. And Wirly pearl wrote: >The Music of Joni Mitchell... I'm not sure if The Good Samaritan is in there. >I'd have to check. And Irish Philip wrote: >Was this the first time she wrote a song about a cat ? I presume it >was a cat who slept in the toolshed. Yes, it was a cat...don't know if it was her first chanson a la chat or not. It's not in the music books, so Casey, maybe you heard it live? Joni was performing it in '69 - I heard it at the Greek Theatre CSN & Y shows in LA. It was also on some of the '70s vinyl bootlegs. My friend Violet (RIP) taped the Greek show she went to, and for years that scratchy tape was my only copy. At some point in the '70s it erased itself. Early airport metal detectors, maybe? I was so glad to get the song on the tape tree. Best, ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" *NEW* website at: http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:22:01 -0600 From: "Alison Einerson" Subject: Dear jmdlers, This is Alison E. checking in after a long absence. Actually, when I subscribed previously I rarely ever posted, I was a hard-core "lurker." Well, I just wanted to break in and give my comments on an experience that was made possible because of this list. I was recently in Manhattan (alas! two days late for Joni's Jazz!). Anyway, I dragged my friends to the restaurant that some of you had mentioned-Tanti Baci in the village. It was great! The food was very good, the wine was lovely, but (of course) I was mostly giddy to know that I was "sharing" this small space/experience with Joni... So thanks for making that possible. Also, on Evian's comment: > Which leads us to the same old question again... do we >relate to certain albums because of age, environment, etc? I still >think that I relate so well to DED because I am a child of the '80's, >and maybe I don't relate to STAS all that much because I just "wasn't >there" when STAS came out. But then again, that whole thing doesn't add >up, because I was only a year old when BLUE was released, and that album >changed my life. I was not even born when STAS came out, but it is one of my favorites. I think I relate to it because I remember my mother playing several of the songs on her guitar. I was pretty sure my mom was Joni for a long time... ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:23:30 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: dog eat dog, and '80s joni again. Oh, come on people. He's entitled to his opinion just like everyone else, and it's just as important as yours. NP-Rusted Root-10-28-95 At 7:34 AM -0400 7/14/99, Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.com wrote: > Shawn, a poor misguided 15-year old boy, sneaks onto his > mother's computer and writes: > > < think she can do no wrong well she like any artist has put out > her share of stink bombs. To me its so personal how can you > guys just talk and talk take it for what it is or means to you. > Dont worship the ground she walks on, strive to be a light as > bright as her. Remember every picture has its shadows.>> > > First off, for directing this missive to one of the sweetest > and fairest members of this community, go to jail, go directly > to jail, do not pass go, do not listen to Joni. > > Second, let's make a deal...we'll all get lives, you return to > 6th grade and learn how to PUNCTUATE A SENTENCE!!! (In best Sam > Kinison voice) :~D > > Seriously, I was baffled to say the least at this comment. > Escaping this kind of attitude and lack of understanding is the > reason most of us are here... > > Bob, who's already such a bright light his Dad calls him "Sun" ____________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | home.revealed.net/Harpua | |__________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:36:48 +0100 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: "And the nominations are..." (NJC) >>Michael (still giggling) at Colin's "not on this list" Oh, me too! Unbelievable comic timing! Do you have JMDL Awards (The JMDLARS) each year? Choosing between this and Don Rowe's 'standards' post (which has had me on the floor for most of this afternoon) in the 'Quick Response Comedy Comeback of the Year' award (the ROTFLAR), is going to be nigh impossible. PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:54:10 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: cookbook Now that TT8 taping is over (mostly) and Joni's Jazz is but a memory, I'm working on the cookbook. Unfortunately the road I had pursued needs a minimum order of 200 and about a $500 investment from me. So now I'm looking at local printing options. If anyone has had good experience with such with Kinko's, Staples, or others please let me know. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:09:16 +0100 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: "And the nominations are..." (NJC) God the posts are good in today's digest. So far, Chatty Kakki gets my vote in the 'Best Supporting Put-Down' category. Elegant, quick witted, sharp and to the point - like Pete Sampras at Wimbledon this year 15 - Love Thirty - Love Forty - Love Game Set and Match - eeeh, real class!! PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:08:18 -0400 From: Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.com Subject: NJC Stink bombs >>Oh, come on people. He's entitled to his opinion just like everyone else, and it's just as important as yours.<< Ok, Ok, sorry Shawn (and Mark), I was just joking anyway, but that "get a life" attitude is just so cliche...sorry just the same for lobbing the stink bomb your way... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:21:00 -0500 From: Heather Galli Subject: Joni and her VG8 Hi- I have a question about Joni and her VG8. I'm not musically inclined at all so please bear with me. I was watching my Painting with Words & Music video night before last and was thrilled to see some close up views of Joni's hands playing her VG8. I love to watch her play the guitar! Quite a while back, I remember reading in a post that when Joni played acoustic guitar her open tunings required some of the strings to be quite loose. With the VG8 this is not necessary because the open tuning is programmed in, no? So, my question is ......Did Joni have to adjust to the different tension on the strings of the VG8 ? It's obvious that she did but I'm wondering if it was difficult for her to make the transition. What do some of our musically talented and gifted JMDLers have to say? If this was addressed in an earlier post, please except my apologies for bringing up again :-) Heather ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:30:46 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: God & man; Joni/many lovers; Circle Game Revisited Below is a really long, stream-of-consciousness diatribe with a recurring Joni-thread with a lot of my personal ranting that you may just want to skip to the end of because sometimes, I should probably just shut up. Feel free to fast-forward this one, but now that i've reeled you in this far, betcha you're gonna read it because you're afraid you might miss something! Picking up on the God-thread that has woven in and out of postings over the last week or so (perhaps longer, but I haven't been here long enough!) it has often seemed to me that, although many of us were told as children that "God made man in His own image", more often than not, it's man who made God in HIS own image. People either choose the god that works for them (or more often than not, have this god thrust upon them by their families and societies) and then in turn, try to impose it on others, or they learn to be tolerant of others and their beliefs. Have you ever wondered why God is always on OUR side? Well, guess what the other side is saying... There is definitely a spiritual theme that emerges throughout Joni's music, whether it's tarot cards and psychics, the epistles of St Paul ("Love"), the poetry of Yeats ("Slouching towards Bethlehem") or Blake ("Taming the Tiger"), there is a spiritual quest there. At the same time, Joni is very aware of her physical side. ("I am a woman of heart and mind", or "There's a wild world of changes and lonely landscapes to discover, but all I want to do right now is... find another lover.") She seems well aware of the irony and questions this duality in herself, while at times, revelling in it. As someone raised in a very Catholic, religious environment, I can emphathize with anyone who still has problems with trying to overcome the guilt and shame imposed on them as a child. This kind of thing is really hard to overcome and even though years of therapy and self-analysis may allow you to first, admit to the problem and then to attempt to solve it, the solution often occurs at only a very theoritical level. Although I may convince myself with self-argument that what I'm doing (whether it's "finding another lover" or, in the early days, convining myself that I wouldn't go to hell for eating meat on Friday - does anyone remember Vatican 2? i remember as a young kid thinking it was all very weird that suddenly girls didn't need to wear hats to church anymore and that eating meat on Friday was now OK and wondering whether all those who may have gone to hell for eating meat on Friday before would be released from hell? Like, was this thing retroactive or what?) is OK and that no God in his/her right mind would condemn anyone for the kinds of things a lot of people consider sinful, that stuff is almost bred into the bone in most people. If it isn't religion, it's something else. How often have you heard yourself say to your kids something you swore as a kid you would never say to anyone (whew!), only to realize that you had in effect "become" your mother or your father. I think the Jesuits were noted to have said "Give me a child before he's 5 years old, and I'll make him mine for life". Not that I believe that most people deliberately set out to make other humans as miserable as themselves, with the exception of those that in full knowledge set out to brainwash people - and even at that, most of these must first brainwash themselves into believing that their cause is great or good or somehow holy. What a complicated collection of chemicals we humans are! Having gotten to what I hope is the end of that particular diatribe, what it comes down to is that what people are, what they do, how they interact with others is so inextricably bound up with so many other things that ... what? I forgot what I was going to say. So, Joni has had a lot of lovers. Some people have a problem with that. If she were a man, they'd be canonizing her for it;) This is a lady who knows what she wants. When you share your life with another person, any other person, there's a whole lot of compromise that goes on. The question you have to ask yourself is, am I prepared to compromise? If I want the room painted black, and you want it painted white, is it fair to paint it grey? Yadda, yadda, yadda. How many of you have furniture in your houses that you can't stand because you and your spouse don't have the same taste, so you end up getting something neither likes. Your choices are to be true to yourself and risk losing the other person, or compromising and perhaps losing a bit of yourself in the process - so then the question becomes, how far am I willing to compromise? Can I keep the things most important to me while maintaining this relationship and are there certain things I can give up? Hmm, decision time. My rant is now at an end. Collective sigh of relief heard 'round the world. gdave, your "parody" was less parody to me than a really good, really keenly observed update of the "Circle Game". I can actually hear Joni singing it (oh, maybe that was one of those OTHER voices in my head. Is that you, St Margaret? No? well, if you're not Joni, get OUTTA MY HEAD!!) LOLOLOLOL. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:55:13 +0100 From: Martin Giles Subject: Re: Gay? Any straight Joni fans on the list? Martin. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:24:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Gay? - --- Martin Giles wrote: > Any straight Joni fans on the list? > > Martin. > I'll stand up and be counted! Don Rowe _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:36:58 -0500 From: Heather Galli Subject: Re: Gay? >Any straight Joni fans on the list? > Well ..... I don't know about straight .... some have told me I have nice curves .... ;-) Literal Heather ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:37:10 -0600 From: "Brett Code" Subject: RE: Gay? Good question. No obvious correct reply. The path followed is totally Joni, but straight? I wonder. You know it never has been easy Whether you do or you do not resign Whether you travel the breadth of extremities Or stick to some straighter line . . . . Still sometimes the slightest touch of a stranger Can set up trembling in my bones . . . . A defector from the petty wars Until love sucks me back that way. Brett nh (now humming) - Hejira Martin Giles Subject: Re: Gay? Any straight Joni fans on the list? Martin. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:07:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: God & man; Joni/many lovers; Circle Game Revisited (now NJC) Catherine wades in bravely ... > "God made man in His own image", more often than > not, it's man who made God > in HIS own image. People either choose the god that > works for them (or more > often than not, have this god thrust upon them by > their families and > societies) and then in turn, try to impose it on > others, or they learn to be > tolerant of others and their beliefs. > I'm careful to distinguish here between "religion" and "belief system" -- because they are two entirely different things. Joseph Campbell makes, for me, the most convincing argument that, in the end, all the world belief systems, and their mythologies, are essentially the same. He once answered the question, 'Do you believe Jesus was the son of God?', put to him by a Catholic Priest -- by saying, 'Not unless we all are, Father.' His answer was much more grounded in the spiritual belief system of Christianity, than it was the dogma of the Catholic Church, which is where the question came from ... For me, the real trouble starts with "religion", which more often than not, is organized and run as the political wing of a belief system. It is here that you find the inherent contradictions, oppression, intolerance and dogmatic viewpoints usually reserved for government institutions. The fact that, historically, government and religious factions have been united to maintain temporal political power, leaves me with no surprise in regards to a given "religion" or "church's" spiritual bankruptcy. The object of their game is control over resources, territory and population. The unfortunate result of this is that an individual's experience is most likely to be formed, and informed, by the dogmatic politics of a given religious institution. I think that only when that same individual makes a conscious choice of a belief system, that true tolerance becomes possible. Don Rowe _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:24:10 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: dog eat dog, and '80s joni again Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:11:49 +0100 From: Martin Giles shawn streamed... but i do worship her i'm nothing without her i am just a shadow and she is the light i am only a bit of crumbled tape accidentally stuck to the back of the painting of her life i kiss the ground she walks on or i would if she came over to the uk again i live her music breath her music she is turbulent indigo i am a thousand times washed beige i am not worthy to even listen to her music i feel guilty every time i hear her songs i am only a soon to be mopped up muddy smudge in a cold water rest room once brifly visited by her.....ggllmmmnnoooogrphfff ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:52:56 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Gay? Martin Giles wrote: > > Any straight Joni fans on the list? > > Martin. Well, personally I prefer her a bit curvy... ;-) Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:45:00 -0600 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - July 15 1972: Joni performs at Mariposa Folk Festival - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:54:20 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Today in Joni History - July 15 Today in Joni History wrote: > 1972: Joni performs at Mariposa Folk Festival > -------- > Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to > JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. > -------- I was there! I was there! Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:08:03 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Today in Joni History - July 15 Jerry Notaro wrote: > > Today in Joni History wrote: > > > 1972: Joni performs at Mariposa Folk Festival > I was there! I was there! > > Jerry "I'm tellin' you man.....Jerry was there...." ;-) Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:06:42 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Gay? In a message dated 7/14/99 1:19:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mlg@ukonline.co.uk writes: << Any straight Joni fans on the list? >> Yes, not that there's anything wrong with that. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:11:48 -0400 From: LOREN CARTER Subject: Gay? >Someone asked.... >Any straight Joni fans on the list? > >To which Heather replied.... >Well ..... I don't know about straight .... some have told me I have nice >curves .... ;-) >Literal Heather Now Loren replies.... after reading Heather's description of herself ... I'm straight, mainly a certain section below my waist. ;-D ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:38:59 -0400 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: Re: Gay? Mmmmm, my wife keeps complaining about mine. Ken Heather Galli wrote: > Well ..... I don't know about straight .... some have told me I have nice > curves .... ;-) > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:11:10 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: God & man; Joni/many lovers; Circle Game Revisited (now NJC) > >Catherine wades in bravely ... > It's easy to be brave in writing. In social situations, I'm usually the one that doesn't say word one. Here's a supposed Haitian proverb that I picked up off some desk calendar: "A dog is a dog until he's facing you. Then he's Mr. Dog." cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:57:56 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: "And the nominations are..." (NJC) Paul, > God the posts are good in today's digest. So far, Chatty Kakki gets my vote > in the 'Best Supporting Put-Down' category. Oh thank you Paul! But I must share the award jointly with Bob, Evian and Martin who've had me giggling uncontrollably ;-D > Elegant, quick witted, sharp and to the point - like Pete Sampras at Wimbledon this year > 15 - Love Thirty - Love Forty - Love Game Set and Match - eeeh, real > class!! Now you've provoked me to gush with some hometown pride - Petey and Lindsay Davenport (and Tracy Austin before them) all grew up in my little town and I wonder what it is - something in the water maybe? My mother tried in vain for many years to get me out on the court, too, but I never could hear her exhortations over the Joni music constantly playing in my room ;-D Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:15:17 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: stinkbombs (njc) bob, with his usual clarity, spoke to shawn: > < First off, for directing this missive to one of the sweetest > and fairest members of this community, go to jail, go directly > to jail, do not pass go, do not listen to Joni. > > Second, let's make a deal...we'll all get lives, you return to > 6th grade and learn how to PUNCTUATE A SENTENCE!!! (In best Sam > Kinison voice) :~D > > Seriously, I was baffled to say the least at this comment. > Escaping this kind of attitude and lack of understanding is the > reason most of us are here... and mark d replied: He's entitled to his opinion just like everyone else, and it's just as important as yours.<< well he may be entitled to it, but that doesn't mean it's important, or worthy of respect. i especially think that when someone who rarely posts; who contributes nothing to the list decides to criticize the discussion, his opinion is unimportant. completely unimportant. bob backpedaled a bit (shame on you, sir) but he made another good point, about shawn's writing. why should i respect his opinion when he took all of ten seconds to form and write it? that's rude to the list. i'm not asking for perfect writing; i'm talking about a standard of communication that 95% of the members of this list easily achieve. gina once said she was worried about her writing on list, but her posts are always clear and well-written. nearly everyone here communicates well. paragraphs are perhaps the most important thing; if i see 200 or 300 words with no line breaks, i usually delete. i'd like to mention a lister whose writing has gotten much more readable for me, lately. i've differed with marcel deste many times and probably will again, but i really appreciate that he has been taking a great deal of care to express his opinions as well as possible. he wrote a post a couple of months ago about the joys of a well-aged worn voice that was wonderful. and just yeaterday or so he offered his thoughts on the early 60s, from a viewpoint that must be one of the older ones here. i don't agree with all he said, but i was happy to hear his thoughts. if marcel can make that effort, why should we expect any less from shawn? patrick np - etta james - the second time around ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:30:41 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: "And the nominations are..." (NJC) Kakki wrote: > Now you've provoked me to gush with some hometown pride - Petey and Lindsay > Davenport (and Tracy Austin before them) all grew up in my little town and I > wonder what it is - something in the water maybe? My mother tried in vain > for many years to get me out on the court, too, but I never could hear her > exhortations over the Joni music constantly playing in my room ;-D Careful Kakki,....I've taken all week to calm down from seeing Miss Davenport in action at Wimbledon ;-) Jason (clearly smitten) :-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:45:46 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: dog eat dog, larry (jc) some nice thoughts on this subject. i'd just like to make two things clear: 1) i wasn't defending ded: i do think it's a flawed album, probably her worst in 20. 2) i just think it's wrong to blame klein. factually wrong. and wrong to blame dolby. i dutifully listened to ded yesterday, and there's much to love there. tax-free is a really beautiful melody, so surprising considering the subject. i still love ethiopia and lucky girl to death. and since the subject is klein, isn't his understated bass on ethiopia brilliant? i just think most of the album is misconceived. the production sounds trite, at a time when many artists were using the same sounds and tools to make music that sounded so much better. someone countered me to say that the harshness was appropriate, given the political material, but where does that leave 'good friends'? that song looks good on paper and just sounds terrible on the album. bob wrote: Joni, being so >strongly involved emotionally with Klein, gave up more control than she >usually does that's called collaboration, and it's a critical component of an artistic life. i wish she had collaborated with someone on taming the tiger, it's a much more boring album than chalkmark, though the material is probably stronger (it's really hard to tell). i wrote about night ride home; bob replied: >I think you hit the nail on the head here and supported my statement; Klein >finally realizes that the trendy phony duets don't work (not a one on NRH) again, why do you think they were his idea? i've never heard that. and also again, on chalkmark they work (except, imo, dancing clown). by the way, nothing can be done (from nrh) is a duet with david baerwald. and there's that duet on turbulent indigo, not even an original song. it's decent, but not even close to the successful chalkmark duets. >Nothing Can Be Done was his music, and it doesn't hold up with >the likes of Slouching, NRH, Cherokee Louise, Two Grey Rooms i LOVE that song! the only song that doesn't work on that album is the windfall, and she mangled that one all herself. also, larry is co-credited on three songs from chalkmark, lakota, the tea-leaf prophecy and snakes and ladders. these are amazing songs, especially lakota. still not buying your viewpoint on this, dude. willing to hear more, though. patrick np - etta james - feeling uneasy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:43:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: Gay? NJC Martin Giles asked: > > Any straight Joni fans on the list? Don Rowe wrote: > I'll stand up and be counted! I'll stand up too :-)) Brian np: slurrrrrrrrrrpp === "No paper thin walls No folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 22:37:22 +0100 From: pyramus Subject: Re: UK Joni Party? catman wrote: > <> Looking forward to our rendezvous already. Colin, let us know if you need us to bring anything and thanks for your generosity. Kevin. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:05:22 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: stinkbombs (njc) patrick said: <> Ok, so now I'm sorry AND I'm hanging my head in shame... :~) I really thought at length before sending my original comment because I know some people are a little paranoid about their writing style - I agree in toto with what you're saying and I think "writing quality" means a lot more than mere grammar. Heck, Patrick, you don't use any upper case letters but you express yourself so well it doesn't make any difference. The original comment I responded to reminded me of stuff I had seen on a Britney Spears bulletin board. Someone at the airport had given me a Britney Spears item that was very collectible after I told them I was a music fan. Not wanting the item, I posted to a Britney Spears AOL bulletin board that I would give it to the first person who e-mailed me about it. Well,while I was there I perused the comments on the bulletin board, and if you removed the "Get A Life" and "Britney Rules" comments, there wasn't much left. When I saw Shawn's comment this morning, it reminded me of the mentality of those juvenile chat rooms and made me shudder...and react in a dramatic fashion. By the way, the person who e-mailed me first about the Britney cassette (that I offered to give away) asked me how much I wanted for it...makes me think I should have put the thing on E-bay and let these kids go at it with their Daddy's money... :~) Bob (not really sorry and certainly not really ashamed) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #309 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. 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