From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #307 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, July 13 1999 Volume 04 : Number 307 The Laborday JoniFest is happening this fall! For information: send a message to Join the mailing list at: ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Those engraved numbers on records (NJC) [evian ] rarities [CarltonCT@aol.com] dog eat dog, and '80s joni again. [evian ] Plugged or unplugged (NJC) ["Paul Castle" ] Re: Joni and her many men.... [catman ] Re: Joni and her many men.... [catman ] UK JMDL [catman ] Re: Joni and her many men.... ["Lisa Peakes" ] Re: Joni and her many men.... [Krys & Geoff ] Re: UK Joni Party? [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: 99's best so far (NJC) [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: NJC .. Self-Intro ... 'Moving the Waterfall' poem ... parroties [phil] Re: Plugged or unplugged (NJC) [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: The judds, both sides now.NJC [Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel] Re: Joni and her many men.... [Jerry Notaro ] Parody (no warnings) [kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)] Re: Plugged or unplugged (NJC) [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: dog eat dog, and '80s joni again. [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Plugged or unplugged (NJC) [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Plugged or unplugged (NJC) [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Parody (no warnings) [Mark Domyancich ] Re: Joni and her many men.... [zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny)] Re: Taming The Tiger [Howard Wright ] More RS [Steve Dulson ] Thanks to all and Alternative Tunings [Allison Fernley ] Joni's men... [Janene Otten ] Re: NJC Joy of Cooking [Randy Remote ] Re: Taming The Tiger [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Thanks to all and Alternative Tunings [Mark Domyancich ] Re: Joni and her many men.... [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Joni and her many men.... [Susan Chaloner ] Re: Joni and her many men.... [Susan Chaloner ] Re: Plugged or unplugged (NJC) [Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.co] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 00:58:44 -0600 From: evian Subject: Those engraved numbers on records (NJC) Jason Maloney wrote: > I always cite the case of Prince's 1985 album, Around The World In A > Day. Now, in the UK at least, there was NO pre-release info whatsoever, > and one Monday morning, on the bus to school, I saw this wonderful > psychedelic album sleeve in the "just arrived" section of the window > display of Our Price (leading music store in the UK at the time). Purple > Rain - and Prince in general - was "it" (excuse the pun) for me back > then, and I will never forget the sheer thrill of surprise and then > expectation when I discovered who this mystery album was by. > Well again, this list is freaking me out. I had basically the same experience with Around the World in a Day. The album was released when I was in grade nine, and I had heard nothing about it coming out. Anyway, it was the day of some track and field day thing at my school, and since that was definitely not my thing, me and a bunch of other Breakfast Club rejects just took off to the mall. I walked into the record store and they were unpacking a ton of boxes of stock, and I see this funky album cover. After I looked at it, I started stammering "Prince? Prince?? A new Prince?? How could this be, there is no single, no nothing!" I grabbed it and bought it right away, and I will never forget my excitement at finding this album without any prior knowledge. Every time I play it, I always tell my wife "I was the first person in town to own this album". Funny, it really doesn't seem to impress her... I also had the same experience with TI. I was visiting my parents on midterm break, reading an ad in the paper for a music store, and see TI by Joni on sale for 14 bucks or something. I just lost it, yelling, "TURBULENT INDIGO?? TURBULENT INDIGO?? WHAT THE HELL???? MOM!!! THERE'S A NEW JONI!!!" While I love the information age, I still do sort of miss going into the record store and stumbling upon new releases by my favorite artists. The excitement has sorta gone out of record shopping now, since I seem to make plans to be at the store asap when something is going to be released. Evian np: the sweet sounds of a thunderstorm, sweeping away the brutal heat of the past three days. P.S. Just got back from a day at the Saskatoon Ex., and "Harlem in Havana" kept drifting through my thoughts all day. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 03:00:25 EDT From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: rarities Hey JMDLers - Wondering if any one has tapes number 2 and 3? I'd love to send some blanks and an SASE. - - Clark np: ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 01:30:52 -0600 From: evian Subject: dog eat dog, and '80s joni again. Well, since I am so tired, I will just bluntly confess -- I would take DED over STAS and CLOUDS anyday. I really like the sound of DED, and not just because I am a Dolby fan. Out of her 80's albums, DED is the best imho... and out of her body of work as a whole, it definitely rates in the top 5. Which leads us to the same old question again... do we relate to certain albums because of age, environment, etc? I still think that I relate so well to DED because I am a child of the '80's, and maybe I don't relate to STAS all that much because I just "wasn't there" when STAS came out. But then again, that whole thing doesn't add up, because I was only a year old when BLUE was released, and that album changed my life. So anyway, again and again the same situation... don't know why I prefer DED over the first two albums, I just do. Unarticulate as ever, Evian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:48:59 +0100 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: Plugged or unplugged (NJC) Peter Holmstedt peter.holmstedt@telia.com >Plug Of The Week #27.....I found another great artist and another great >album a couple of weeks ago..... You (and perhaps others on the list) might think it's none of my business really, but I can't help but wonder, every time I see these, whether a) you are being paid to say 'another great artist' etc etc or b) you are just sharing your genuine enthusiasm for your latest discovery. Personally I have no big problem with either although I'd prefer it to be the latter. Music shared is one of the greatest joys. If, however, you are being paid to come up with a few subjective adjectives for the next 'client' on your list, then I think that perhaps you should really be paying something for this space each week - an equitable amount to the WallyB Fundraiser would, personally, placate me. If, indeed, you are being paid, I also think it would be more honest to change your opening line. "I found another great artist" sort of implies that you just stumbled across them. Which, of course, you may have - in which case I take it all back and thank you for sharing your faves with us all. PaulC PS Where's Ashara's address again? Ah, here it is: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA 01983 PPS Cheques payable to Wally Breese (apparently well-concealed dollar bills will also make it past the post office sniffer dogs!!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:15:36 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Joni and her many men.... Susan Chaloner wrote: > Penny wrote: > > > And the judging should > > be left up to God who gave her all of those gifts. > > What is all this judging talk? The Great Spirit would not judge. The > Great Spirit would not find it necessary...but then the Great Spirit is > not puffed up...The Great Spirit just is... I couldn't agree more, Susan. > Now why don't we all try just > being in the moment...Dare I suggest that we all run away and wrestle > with our great big egos? > > Carry on Joni ;~) > > Susan L.A. > Honey McBabe-"...Did Jesus have a baby sister > Was she bitter, was she sweet > Did she wind up in a convent > Did she end up on the street > On the run, on the stage, did she dance > Did he have a sister, a little baby sister > Did Jesus have a sister > Did they give her a chance?... > Did she long to be a saviour > saving everyone she met > And in private to her mirror did she whisper > Saviorette, saviour woman, saviour person > Save your breath..."-Dory Previn - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:14:57 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Joni and her many men.... Maybe long term monogomy is not for everyone. I don't think Joni's several relationships should be considered either a failure or a sin or even a success. From the little info we have about Joni, about her disease, about her relationship with Mother(which appears shame based), her pregancy etc and the fact that she is fiercely independant and strong and angry, perhaps all these things make it difficult to have a long term relationship with anyone. Either way, we all have our roles to play whilst here. It is not up to anyone to judge the worth or otherwise of that role. personally, I have been 'married' for 18years to the same man. i don't think that makes me 'better' than someone who has had several relationships in that time. i just consider myself very lucky. It certainly has nothing to do with being emotionally well balanced!! You know, one of the most serious problems caused by mankind is all the judgement and fear brought about by people expecting others to be a certain way. Girls should be girls and behave in a particular way. Boys should be boys and behave in particular way. Boys shouldn't feel like this or that and girls shouldn't feel like this of that. Love should be confined only to your family or people of the opposite sex or else it is seen as sinful or unnatural and becomes defiled by such attitudes. People are people and it would be advantageous to us all if children were encouraged to develop as themselves rather than controlled and forced to develop in the way society, parents, church etc wants them to be. Stop trying to have things 'your way' and much of the what troubles us will disappear. The real battle in life is the constant struggle to be who one is and not what is expected. A life lived being someone other than who one is, is a waste. (of course many people think that if one encourages people to be who they are they will become cornflakes or some other monster) bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:17:39 +0100 From: catman Subject: UK JMDL Okay, several positve responses now. Please respond to this message if you are willing to meet here in March. Even if you already did. I will then post a list of those who want to come. A weekend is not problem for those who cannot make a weekday. bw colin - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 05:46:50 -0400 From: "Lisa Peakes" Subject: Re: Joni and her many men.... I have an old memory - incomplete information, of Joni saying one of the trips of an artist is to have beautiful lovers - that's about all I can recall - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:57:45 +0100 From: Krys & Geoff Subject: Re: Joni and her many men.... In message , Takats, Angela writes >I'd really like to know what you guys think...and, as someone said before, I >really hope Joni isn't out there reading this, cos she'd probably tell me to >mind my own business..... > >But, as a young woman who has not experienced being in and out of love with >many men, I wonder about it....the notion of being with many people, whether >it's a good, growing/maturity thing...whether it leaves you loveless and >alone?? > >Help me - all you wise wise Listers I don't know about being wise, Ange, but here's my personal philosophy. Love is found in many places, and in none. Some people take a lifetime to find one person they want to be with, others find that person sooner. Some folk don't need others to be as close to someone by having a permanent partner, some need a special person all the time. Some folk need more than one person for different reasons; some of us love men, women or both. And we all change, grow, evolve and our ideas and wishes change with us. Thus I believe it is natural for a there to be shifts and changes within relationships; people grow together or apart; someone might be perfect for you for a time, then you may suddenly be as strangers. There are no rules about love, thank goodness. We love whom we love, sometimes it's good for us and sometimes it's not. But it's all part of the tapestry of life, and as Joni has illustrated, she has learned a lot about people by knowing so many - lovers and friends. And through her own stories we learn, too, and recognise ourselves and people we know/have known in her stories which, although personal, are also universal. Don't ever worry about what the "norm" is, because there isn't one. Except to yourself - whatever is normal to you, that's normal - and should not be judged by others because they are not you. Sometimes while we are looking for truths and reasons we miss so much because we miss what is actually happening. No prizes for how many or how few lovers or friends; it's the quality of those relationships while it lasts that matters. Love and peace, Krys XXXXX ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:26:01 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: UK Joni Party? Colin wrote > I'd be very happy to have people over at my house in March, Cambridgeshire. I've got stamps of many countries. I might come over. Please count me as a maybe. Thanks Colin. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:26:33 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: 99's best so far (NJC) Azeem wrote: > You're right on the money with Macy Gray This Macy Gray record seems to have come out of nowhere. I've only seen one review and it dosen't seem to be on the radio. I love the old school soul flavour. This and Al Green touring - must be a rebirth or revival or something like that. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:26:14 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: NJC .. Self-Intro ... 'Moving the Waterfall' poem ... parroties - ----- Original Message ----- From: C. G. >Sweetest singer? Terry G. from "The Joy Of Cooking"; again JM's about tied! >I've certainly listened much more to Joni, come to think. Terry was ok but Toni was my Joy of choice especially on a 1974 solo album on MCA. Where is she now I wonder. All this talk about my forgotten favourites is keeping me busy here. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:34:11 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Plugged or unplugged (NJC) - ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Castle > You (and perhaps others on the list) might think it's none of my business > really, but I can't help but wonder, every time I see these, whether a) you > are being paid to say 'another great artist' etc etc or b) you are just > sharing your genuine enthusiasm for your latest discovery. > I've always considered these to be "advertisment of the week" and usually delete without reading. I've discovered some great new music on this list from people who paid for their records but nothing in these "plugs" interests me. Philip. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:44:02 -0400 From: Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: The judds, both sides now.NJC Mingus commented about: <> Wow, it must be sweeps week or something, I swear that network TV is getting bolder & bolder...If this was indeed her "pubic" debut, I'm surprised she was performing BSN instead of "Furry Sings The Blues" or "The Jungle Line"...:~D Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:36:48 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Joni and her many men.... I think Joni described herself best: " I am a serial monogamist." Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:40:58 +0100 From: "Hejira" Subject: Barbara Burst I am looking for Barbara in relation to some videos of mine she may have . Could you please pass this on to her. Thanks Kevin (HEJIRA28@MSN.COM) Please get in touch soon . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:47:27 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: Parody (no warnings) Since my last bit of "creative writing" was such a hit, I thought I'd try my hand at a parody. This one is not funny though. It was inspired by a recent trip into parts of NYC that some of you Central Parkers might not have seen or may have only glimpsed through your window panes... With apologies to Ms. Mitchell, I'll call this "Circle Game '99" Yesterday a child came out to wonder Found a used syringe outside a bar Fearful when some bullets rang like thunder And tearful at the burning of a car. And the sirens, they spin round and round And the fire-engines drive up and down He's captive in the tenements of grime He can't escape, he can only look beyond the window panes, riding round and round all night on the subway trains. Then the child moved ten times round the seasons. Running crack on littered frozen streets. Enough for some new sneakers will appease him, And funerals on Sundays end up his weeks. And the sirens, they wail round and round And the ambulances speed up and down He's captive in a petty life of crime He can't escape, he can only look beyond the window panes, riding round and round all night on the subway trains. Sixteen Springs and sixteen Summers gone now. Turf rights turn to Gang fights through the town. They tell him, "Watch your back, or it won't be long now, 'till it's you they're planting six feet underground. And the sirens, they sing round and round In an ever-present most unnerving sound. He's captive to the Gang since he was nine. He can't escape, he can only look beyond the window panes, riding round and round all night on the subway trains. So the years spin by and now the boy is twenty. Now he's hustling to survive on the Avenue. There'll be new tricks, maybe better tricks with plenty...of cash to boot before the night is through. And the sirens, they blare round and round And the johns cruise by, look him up and down He's captive of these dirty streets of slime He can't escape, he can only look beyond the window panes, as he climbs into another car again. Riding round and round and round in his circle game. ©gdave - ----------------------------------------------------------------- DaveBase @ www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:49:17 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Plugged or unplugged (NJC) I was surprised to see a notice about my CD, JAZZ TAKES ON JONI MITCHELL, from Peter Holmstedt. It was the first reaction on JMDL and I was very pleased that he was praising it. I had no idea who he was and I certainly didn't pay him to flack for me. I hope this eases the concerns of Philip and others. Many people post here to share their enthusiasms and I simply assumed that Peter Holmstedt was doing the same in a manner slightly more formal than the rest of us. JAZZ TAKES is doing OK; Online reviews have been almost all good and it looks like Arkadia Jazz wants me to do a new CD this year whereon half the music will be my own and the rest will be four or five by JM plus one "standard." I did an interview last week similar (but far briefer) than the one Wally Breese put on the JM homepage} for DOWNBEAT MAGAZINE's online branch. In many ways, life is good. Ciao for now, DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:52:43 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: dog eat dog, and '80s joni again. Patrick pounds his shoe on the podium, and when the smoke coming out of his ears clears, he writes: <> Now Patrick, I never said Joni was "completely pulled by the nose"...that's kind of funny (and painful) even to imagine! I said that Joni, being so strongly involved emotionally with Klein, gave up more control than she usually does (which is typically not a lot). My comments were not supposition but rather based on an interview that Joni & Larry gave in reference to DED's production. Larry talked about what he brought to the project and really seems to be the dominant speaker in terms of the production and boasts about the things HE did. And you make a good point; Klein is also responsible for a lot of GOOD stuff that happened in Joni's music in this same period. I love his bass work in the live version of "Boogie Man" from Tokyo '83 concert! <> Although "blunt rock" sounds like someone from the Flintstones (Shades of Wilma Conquering), I like the phrase, and I think it applies to WTRF, which is why I like the record so much. After the atmospheric jazz of Mingus and the summation of the period with the exclamation mark of S&L, she was ripe for a new direction, and a cover of a former Elvis hit (You're So Square) is indeed pretty blunt. One of the few Joni albums I play air guitar to! :~) <> Sure it does, and again I don't consider Klein the spawn of Satan, but I stick to my story that there are moments on DED & CMIARS that don't work and don't seem genuine. << joni had her favorites, and when she boarded the duet train, she usually made it part of her artistic growth, especially on chalkmark. though i truly hate 'good friends', i don't think of it as craven; her friendship with michael mcdonald is well known (his wife collects her artwork, and she loves his voice).>> That's why I didn't mention McDonald or Gabriel, because she talks freely about admiring the "colors" they bring to their music. I wonder why she never feels a similar compulsion to have any guest painters step in and add to her paintings.... <> I think you hit the nail on the head here and supported my statement; Klein finally realizes that the trendy phony duets don't work (not a one on NRH) and the trendy synth sounds and special effects don't work and instead casts Joni in her own glow, her gorgeous piano, her clean guitar sounds and HER songs. Nothing Can Be Done was his music, and it doesn't hold up with the likes of Slouching, NRH, Cherokee Louise, Two Grey Rooms...like you say, he understood what SHE wanted...(and redeemed himself from eternal damnation :~D) So it seems we agree in a roundabout way! Bob NPIMH: Nothing Can Be Done (ohhhh, now I've got it my head...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:15:10 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Plugged or unplugged (NJC) Dflahm@aol.com wrote: > I was surprised to see a notice about my CD, JAZZ TAKES ON JONI MITCHELL, > from Peter Holmstedt. It was the first reaction on JMDL and I was very > pleased that he was praising it. David. It may have been the first you have seen, but there have been others. Maybe you could search the JMDL archives with Les' help for the others. They have all, save on, been very positive (including my own.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:17:14 -0400 From: "Reuben Bell3" Subject: Re: Attention Joni LoversNJC LOL! None here, either ;) Reuben >>> catman 07/12 7:15 PM >>> Sorry, none on this list. R Joseph wrote: > Any gay Joni fans out there? > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA*S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:29:04 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Plugged or unplugged (NJC) In a message dated 7/13/99 6:40:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philipf@tinet.ie writes: > I've always considered these to be "advertisment of the week" and usually > delete without reading. I've discovered some great new music on this list > from people who paid for their records but nothing in these "plugs" > interests > me. > Ditto. I find them annoying even to delete and I've not seen the sender contribute anything else to this forum since I began reading posts in earnest earlier this year. Gina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:43:59 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Parody (no warnings) This is great! At 8:47 AM -0400 7/13/99, gr8fuldave wrote: >Since my last bit of "creative writing" was such a hit, I thought >I'd try my hand at a parody. This one is not funny though. It was >inspired by a recent trip into parts of NYC that some of you Central >Parkers might not have seen or may have only glimpsed through your >window panes... ____________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | home.revealed.net/Harpua | |__________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 06:49:09 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Re: Joni and her many men.... Catman wrote: Susan Chaloner wrote: Penny wrote: And the judging should be left up to God who gave her all of those gifts. What is all this judging talk? The Great Spirit would not judge. The Great Spirit would not find it necessary...but then the Great Spirit is not puffed up...The Great Spirit just is... Catman: I couldn't agree more, Susan. Susan: Now why don't we all try just being in the moment...Dare I suggest that we all run away and wrestle with our great big egos? Carry on Joni ;~) Just so I understand this, if one believes God does in fact have standards, with which only He can and should be the judge, that person is considered to have a great big ego they should wrestle with? It doesn't matter in the least if that person accepts others regardless of differences of beliefs or lifestyles and advocates same to all? Sounds like a contradiction to the philosophy of grace to me. Peace, Penny ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:06:06 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: Re: Taming The Tiger From: Lisa Kowalski > I found this very interesting book at Borders Books the other >day;Cats compiled by Andrew Edney.It's a collection of more than 300 >depictions of cats in art.One particular painting caught my attention >;"When The Stars Threw Down Their Spears"by Iris Polos and I thought that >sounds like a Joni lyric!In TTT Joni sings "I watched the stars chuck >down >their spears" and I thought I wonder if this is where Joni obtained that >particular phrase? This could not be a coincidence.Well it turns out that >this particular painting is part of series of five paintings entitiled >Tyger:New Drawings,each of which interprets a stanza from the poem The >Tyger by William Blake!! Hey, sounds like you spotted a neat connection there! It sounds very likely that Joni saw this too and liked the line about stars throwing down their spears. She seems to pick up a lot of little ideas and phrases this way, from things she discovers in books. I loved the story she describes when she was looking for a suitable word for her new album (which ended up as Hejira). She wanted a word that meant "running away with honour" and she was flipping through the dictionary, and the word hejira kind of popped out. Bang - instant album title! Howard ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:51:24 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: More RS Kakki wrote: >Many know of the Rolling Stone "flow chart" from the 70s that charted all >her many actual and alleged lovers. and MG wrote: >Having said this, in no way do I see her as "loose" or deserving of that >Rolling Stones' "Old Lady of the Year" garbage. Having nailed the HOSL RS quote it is now my mission to run down the actual issues of RS that contain these items. Any clues? Anyone know if they are listed on Les' or Wally's sites? Any hints/faded memories on what years they might have been? Just sign me, Compulsive in California ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:50:40 -0600 From: Allison Fernley Subject: Thanks to all and Alternative Tunings Delurking just to express amazement and thanks to you all for the wonderful discussions of late. David's comments about "Furry" and the responses sent me back to that song with new understanding and appreciation. Mark's comments on "Amelia" and then on the overall thematic strains of Hejira put it together for me in a most satisfying way. I can't believe that after listening to these albums for 20 years they can suddenly take on a richer, deeper identity--one colored by all the souls of the people on this list. I also followed Colin's lead and gave myself an all Joni/nothing but Joni day of relaxation and focus last week, only to find myself newly (maybe "perpetually" is a better word)thrilled by the entire oeuvre. With everything else cleared out my head I was able to tune back in to the way I felt when I first heard songs like "Cold Blue Steel" and "Woman of Heart and Mind," and, well, I'd better stop or I'll have to type 100 titles. I remember hearing these shortly after they came out and trying to play them on my guitar and puzzling over why nothing I could play sounded anywhere close. Then I discovered alternate tunings. Just one observation on this, and I could be way off base (hoping those of you with more experience of other artists who use alternate tunings will weigh in). It seems to me that many artists have used alternate tunings starting around the time of Crosby and Joni, and I very much admire many working in that vein today, especially some of the fingerstylists out there. I can think of a couple of songs from various people--David Wilcox springs to mind, that strike me as wonderful explorations of alternate tunings. But it seems to me that no one really comes close to what Joni has done with it all. It isn't just that she comes up with some that I've never heard used elsewhere (though this delights me), but that she really seems to do something so creative, so inventive once she gets there. I'm afraid I don't have all the musical terminology to talk about it, but I guess I'll say it's the full rich nature of the chord voicings she gets. But it doesn't stop there. Perhaps it's all that plus the intense, poetic, perfect lyrics, maybe I mean the utter transcendence of the whole thing as songscape. Argh, words fail me. They always do when I bump up against her genius all over again, as your recent posts have prompted me to do. A heartfelt thanks, Allison ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:45:38 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and her many men.... I think a little history is in order. Giving away my age in the process. While todays females sometimes say things as if they think the pill always existed, it didnt. In fact it actually "happened" around the mid 60's. Things like "the pill" and Planned Parenthood may have started earlier than that but culturally the early 60's were still a time of "bad girls" getting pregnant and having to go to "young mothers homes" to bear their "illegitimate" children.They werent quite the Magdelena Laundries but they werent a spa either. And of course everyone frowned on any woman who got "knocked up". I use that shocking phrase because it demonstrates the atmosphere back then better than any other word or phrase I can think back on. Of course the Big "A" was not an issue. You didnt. As such, morals and mores were entirely different when Joni Mitchell was a young girl. Kilauren may not exist today had Joni been of this generation. (Im not making any sort of judgement Im merely stating a fact). I am part of what I would call the transition generation. I always lived on the border between the way things "used to be" and the way things "were going to be". While my older sister (by 3 years) was subject to all the rules and perceptions of the 40's 50's etc. ie no sex before marriage, just 3 short years later and all hell broke loose because of "the pill". Everyone in the 60's and 70's simply had to try out their new toys and with all the cultural reinforcement loaded with approval and the revolution against the prudish ways of the past almost everyone did. It wasnt even a moral or relationship type decision. The pill disassociated sex from relationships for many people. It "liberated" women from the eons old connection between sex and survival. This moment in history (literally) was the world Joni grew up in as she turned into a woman. It has only been in recent years that people are beginning to realize once again that sex and relationships are not always readily discardable components of being. Especially coming from such a small town in Canada. By the time Joni got to America the new mores had transitioned into the "sexual liberation" phase. While I was always pure and proper (seriously) by the time the 70's hit some of my friends went all the way out beyond the envelope and then some in any and every way you can possibly imagine. One friend used to go to 4 or 5 "house parties" per weekend where everybody had to fill out a signed health history before they were allowed into the next room. Today that guy has three kids and you would think he was Mr.Normal. A girl-friend of mine at the time said her mother who visited from afar was absolutely shocked that she had more than one boy friend (like 5) and was intimate with all of them. yet this was not any big deal. The drug culture only added to this aspect of the culture. It went on like this for about 10 years until the Herpes and the Aids epidemics hit in the 80's and everyone more or less began to realize that rampaging one nighters had consequences other than whoopie. Joni having beauty beyond words, money, celebrity, talent, and everything else naturally could not avoid being placed upon the most massive wave of cultural change in the history of the world that hasent dissipated yet. So to think about Joni and her many men. Give me a break. Given the world in which she lived I see absolutely no issue or matter here. The subject might as well be "Joni and her guitar strings" because that was the way it was for everybody. Relationships were disposable and whoopie was sport. Bill Clinton may not have inhaled BUT he definitely moaned alot when he was in college. That was the 60's. That was Jonis world. She could not possibly have been any different than she was regardless of how she was. As a child of the 50's & 60's I sort of realized that that entire aspect of a persons life was irrelevant to their being. Besides if Wilt Chamberlain could have 25,000 women what is real and what is not. As Les Mcann once sang so well "Real compared to what" . Marcel Deste ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:01:50 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Darryl Purpose (NJC) Peter Holmsted wrote: >I found another great artist and another great album a couple of weeks >ago : Darryl Purpose - Travelers' Code ( Tangible Music ) Darryl is an old buddy of mine, and in fact headlined the Living Tradition concert series I produce, just last month. I echo all the nice things Peter had to say, and add that he is a really nice guy, puts on a great show, has a social conscience, and spent a number of years making his living as a blackjack player, hence the title of his first CD "The Right Side of Zero". Speaking of the concert series, next Saturday's show features dulcimer players Ruth Barrett and Cyntia Smith (Ruth, you will remember, edited along with Joellen Lapidus the dulcimer tab in the "Hits" and "Misses" songbooks, and is interviewed on Wally's site). Opening the show will be phenom acoustic fingerpicking guitarist Tom Long. Just thought you might like to know... :) ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" *NEW* website at: http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:59:39 -0400 From: Janene Otten Subject: Joni's men... I've been reading all of the posts on this thread. I know it's very tempting to wax philosophical on Joni's experiences and her past loves but I think the reason for the temptation is identical to our reasons for being interested in any aspect of her personal or professional life. Her music has touched our souls. Her words have balanced our lives and set our musical standards. Her experiences are only public to us because she is famous, just like Bill Cosby having to mourn the death of his son in public or Bill Clinton having to testify for the gossip hungry world about his disgraceful affairs. Would it be impossible for fans to love an artist for the art alone? Do we love Joni for her music alone? It may be that the music has led us to try to define ourselves by our own experiences but in a way that we may not be able to express the way Joni has. We have all had lovers, I'm sure, but I'm also sure that very few of us have had to answer questions at a press conference about them. I think the posts are interesting life observances but I would like to think that these observances aren't a substitute for a character analysis. To be an artist is to create from experience. The experience is open to praise and criticism and comparison to one's personal life. It's just the way it is...some things will never change... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:59:24 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: NJC Joy of Cooking philipf@tinet.ie wrote: > >Sweetest singer? Terry G. from "The Joy Of Cooking"; again JM's about tied! > >I've certainly listened much more to Joni, come to think. > > Terry was ok but Toni was my Joy of choice especially on a 1974 solo > album on MCA. Where is she now I wonder. > Philip I saw Joy of Cooking about 3 years ago at a reunion gig at the Fillmore in SF. She is not, as far as I know, active in the music biz today. I had never seen them in their heyday, but they did cook. And I must add, she still looked fine. I suspect she's living around Mill Valley and enjoying her life. She wrote some great songs, didn't she? RR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:17:28 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Taming The Tiger In a message dated 7/13/99 10:32:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, haw@ph.ed.ac.uk writes: > From: Lisa Kowalski > > > I found this very interesting book at Borders Books the other > >day;Cats compiled by Andrew Edney.It's a collection of more than 300 > >depictions of cats in art.One particular painting caught my attention > >;"When The Stars Threw Down Their Spears"by Iris Polos and I thought that > >sounds like a Joni lyric!In TTT Joni sings "I watched the stars chuck > >down > >their spears" and I thought I wonder if this is where Joni obtained that > >particular phrase? This could not be a coincidence.Well it turns out that > >this particular painting is part of series of five paintings entitiled > >Tyger:New Drawings,each of which interprets a stanza from the poem The > >Tyger by William Blake!! It seems obvious that Joni derived inspiration from the William Blake poem. It was probably discussed here when TTT was first released. I wasn't around then. It's nice to make those little discoveries on your own isn't it Lisa? I was thrilled when I read the lyrics to Taming The Tiger and saw the obvious Blake connection. Take care, Gina NP: Mr. Music Man - Adrian Belew ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:13:34 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Thanks to all and Alternative Tunings I think it's safe to say that Joni is the female pioneer of alternate tunings, where Michael Hedges or Nick Drake would be the male pioneers. At 8:50 AM -0600 7/13/99, Allison Fernley wrote: But it seems to me that no one really comes close to what Joni has done with it all. NP-Cold Blue Steel ____________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | home.revealed.net/Harpua | |__________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:24:39 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Joni and her many men....NJC > > > Just so I understand this, if one believes God does in fact have > standards, with which only He can and should be the judge, that person > is considered to have a great big ego they should wrestle with? It > doesn't matter in the least if that person accepts others regardless of > differences of beliefs or lifestyles and advocates same to all? Sounds > like a contradiction to the philosophy of grace to me. I don't know how you came to that conclusion from what Susan and I wrote.In my experience people put their standards onto God. We all have egos-no escaping that. Even the humblest of us have egos-for without one we would not survive. Whether we are aware of it or not, it is our identity that we seek to preserve-all of us-and to me this is the ego. It is the ego that causes us to protect ourselves and our interests and argue for our beliefs. Many people cannot envisage 'God' as being anything other than a super-human being-with all the same faults only with POWER to have it all His/Her way. In my vision of God there is no room for judgement or punishment or banishment or obedience or even forgiveness. One only needs to forgive if one holds resentment. I cannot imagine God harbouring resentment! God is whole. God does not need anything at all from us, least of all praise and obedience. God already knows S/He is all there is. Doesn't need weedy little me to remind them! I feel that people have God's that fit their ideas and belief system. so some have a vengeful punishing God because that has been their experience of 'adults' when young. Or they have a 'loving' God as long as they are obedient. Some just have a God because they are afraid of the consequences of disbelief. Some have a God that justifies there own bigotry's. One of the reasons I don't have a religious God is because i cannot countenance classifying some people as 'bad' or 'not good enough' because this book or that priest says so. Seems to me that people say God says this and God says that in order to back up their own ideas and bigotry's. after all they couldn't have a God that didn't agree with them could they? People don't come to believe a certain behaviour is wrong because of their belief in God. They already have that opinion which is why the choose a particular God to live with! Some peopl have a God that threatens eternal damnation for not believing. And then try and convince others that this is a loving God!!! When in fact it is , in human form, a wicked tyrant. Having ditched the God of religion a long time ago, and not having one to repleace it for a longtime, I now have a God ,a Great Spirit, that is nothing but uncondtional love. I came to this conclusion because it is the one thing humans cannot give. My God does not need anything from me. Doesn't want anything from me. Doesn't expect anything from me. My God will also never ever desert me, will never damn me or allow anyone else to, will never close doors to me. My God lets me find out that for myself that S/He lives inside me and everyone esle. My God helps me understand that I will suffer because of my mistakes and NOT because S/He will punish me for them. My God does not reserve his special place for special people. It is for all of us and is open to all for all time. No matter how far in the direction of darkness we go, the way back will always be lit. there is no deadline or point of no return. My God is all there is. there is nothing else. No negative power to fight. No 'devil' to be thwarted. God is all there is and all powerful. NOTHING can alter that. No religion, no book, no persons, can change what God is. And fortunately, no matter what our own persoanl beliefs, TRUTH cannot be altered. And none of us know what that Truth is. However, I believe through self honesty, thru compassion, thru empathy, we can learn to get close to that Truth. I don't know what God is but i do know what god is not. And God is not fear, loathing, vengeful, jealous, vain, angry, dictatorial, punishing, a tyrant, a despot, a control freak. God accepts us all as we are NOT what we or others think we ought to be! I have come to see that many people's beliefs are based on fear and not on love. > > > Peace, > Penny - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:24:29 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and her many men.... In a message dated 7/13/99 5:18:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: << (of course many people think that if one encourages people to be who they are they will become cornflakes or some other monster) >> I wish I was a Kellogg's cornflake, floating in my bowl taking movies, relaxing awhile living in style talking to a raisin who occasionally plays L.A. casually glancing at his toupee. Paul S. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:45:14 -0700 From: Susan Chaloner Subject: Re: Joni and her many men.... Penny wrote: > It's always very interresting to me when people get up in arms at the > mere mention of God or Jesus. I'm not up in arms at all if you were referring to me...I simply don't agree that The Great Spirit, God, Jesus, Buddha has any need to judge... By the way: it's always interesting to me that whenever I quote Heather Bishop Christians such as yourself get up in arms...what's so threatening? There should be room for everyone on this planet and this list...Also interesting to me is the fact that what you accuse me of you are actually doing...what do they call that? Psychologists have some big fancy word for it but I just call it hypocrisy. > that there is no need to defend when people don't mock in judgement, > what's not there business anyway. Seems you've already made an erroneous judgement about me...perhaps you should take your own advice. > Gleen the good, throw out the chaff applies to a lot of different > situations. Don't you think? Absolutely ;~) Susan L.A. Honey McBabe-"...Maybe I'll see you around When I change my living standards and move uptown Bye, bye baby, baby bye bye..."-Janis Joplin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:05:54 -0700 From: Susan Chaloner Subject: Re: Joni and her many men.... I wrote: > By the way: it's always interesting to me that whenever I quote Heather > Bishop Christians such as yourself get up in arms... Correction: it was Dory Previn that I qouted...Heather Bishop just happens to do a bitchin' rendition of Dory's tune DID JESUS HAVE A BABY SISTER! Sorry Dory and Heather darlin': I'm still workin' on my first cup of coffee :~D Susan L.A. Honey McBabe-"...If the little girl came later then was she conceived In sin, and in sorrow, and in suffering, and in shame Did he have a sister, a little baby sister Did Jesus have a sister What was her name?..."-Dory Previn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:20:00 -0400 From: Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Plugged or unplugged (NJC) <> And well-deserved, I'd add...I've enjoyed the disc immensely, much more than previous jazz treatments of her music...there seems to be more respect given to her melodic and rhythmic sense. Bob, making his plug of the week...:~) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #307 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. 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