From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #277 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, June 24 1999 Volume 04 : Number 277 The Laborday JoniFest is happening this fall! For information: send a message to Join the mailing list at: ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: "Art snobs" NJC [dsk ] NJC: snobs, Connie, and pussycats [Patrick Mead ] Re: joni's take on punk & disco ["Lisa Peakes" ] NJC Sidney J Harris (was Re: The snob over there) [Jason Maloney ] Re: NJC: snobs, Connie, and pussycats [Jason Maloney ] Re: ...in a name (NJC) [catman ] re: songwriters and singing (NJC) [Robert Holliston ] Re: joni's take on punk & disco [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: some songwriters can't sing for **** (NJC) [Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCor] Re: Posall, bootlegs [w evans ] Re: some songwriters can't sing (so what) (NJC) [Jerry Notaro ] Re: JoNi & eBaY [kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)] RE: You Are Your Car/"Art snobs" [Heather Galli ] what's in a name... NJC [Kay_Ashley@ars.aon.com] Re: You Are Your Car/"Art snobs" [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: The snob over there ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: what's in a name... NJC [Jason Maloney ] Re: what's in a name... NJC [catman ] My Joni-free MRIs -- NJC [Lori ] NJC Re: You Are Your Car/"Art snobs" [Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordan] Re: My Joni-free MRIs -- NJC [Heather Galli ] Re: NJC Re: You Are Your Car/"Art snobs" [Heather Galli ] joni vs johnny rotten [Bounced Message ] You MIGHT be a snob if ... (NJC) [Don Rowe ] Re: joni vs johnny rotten-NJC [Randy Remote ] Re: JoNi & eBaY [Randy Remote ] Re: joni vs johnny rotten/Political Joni [MGVal@aol.com] Re: joni vs johnny rotten-NJC [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: The snob over there [MGVal@aol.com] Re: joni vs johnny rotten-NJC ["Kakki" ] Re: joni vs johnny rotten-NJC [Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.com] Re: Ian Mathews "Woodstock" [FredNow@aol.com] Re:A good artist copies but...NJC [Martin Giles ] Art Snobs/Brian Sewell NJC [Martin Giles ] Re: Mysteries was Art Snobs/Brian Sewell NJC [Don Rowe Subject: Re: "Art snobs" NJC catman wrote: > > dsk wrote: > > > I agree. But it's valuing ONLY that approach to art, and then giving a > > negative label to those people that have another approach, > > BUT i did not do this and don't. I don't know how to make it any clearer than i already have. I didn't say I didn't value you > perspective at all or the knowledge involved. i just do not value being told my thinking art is nice devalues art or art > experts. THAT is what i find objectionable-the attitude. Hi Colin, You've made it very clear and I do understand the distinction you've made. The point I was trying to make in response to your post is that "attitude" can flow both ways, NOT that I was accusing you of anything. I was talking in more general terms, and wasn't at all addressing you in particular when I made these comments. Good lesson for me about how easy it is to be misunderstood. Take care, Debra ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 01:11:10 -0700 From: Patrick Mead Subject: NJC: snobs, Connie, and pussycats At 22:03:57 6/23/99 -0400, (the Rev) Vince wrote: > >Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:03:57 -0400 >From: Vince Lavieri >Subject: NJC: The snob over there >...I should decide what is on the JMDL as I am so in tune to Joni's soul, >and if I don't like what someone posts, it is my right to correct them. >You have some valid points, but sometimes you just don't understand what >this list is about. The fool over there, who gave that idiot the right >to criticize my post which simply and tastefully informed that worthless >snob that what was posted shouldn't be allowed?.... This was the post of the millennium!!!...thank you, your reverence, for restoring a little wit, humor and mental health when it was most sorely needed in these parts. As for the "what's in a name" thread, I will contribute the name of an unfortunate girl from my own high school: Connie Buttrucker. And along similar lines, I must say I am surprised that the following choice of words from our own catman didn't spawn a thread all its own (not that I will start one!): At 22:21:04 6/22/99 -0400, catman wrote: >Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:21:04 +0100 >From: catman >Subject: Re: Mini-meet & greetNJC > >If we weren't in different countries Catgirl and Catman could see eachothers >pussies ... Hmmm. Good wishes to you all, /Pat mailto:pmead@pacbell.net CD-R, cassette & video tape trades: ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:45:55 -0400 From: "Lisa Peakes" Subject: Re: joni's take on punk & disco > > <<>> > > I'm sure she doesn't. Her opinions on it often seem quite glib > to me. My guess is her thoughts on both punk and disco were > not too positive. > Okay, so maybe she doesn't apply much pressure, but I'm still betting she has some reading on the heartbeat of the scene - maybe it's contemporary jazz, maybe it's contemporary Cuban, or contemporary fill-in-the-blank. I sure can't imagine her at a cash register checkout with an armload of the top 20. Does she go to parties where people (other musicians) play their latest material? Does she live in a vaccuum - only listening to Piaf and Miles? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:00:25 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: NJC Sidney J Harris (was Re: The snob over there) IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In fact, I often use a quote of his: > "Conversation should be like a tennis match, where each person hits the ball > to the other's court. But to most people it is like a golf game, where each > person hits his own ball and keeps doggedly after it." > -- Sydney J. > Harris > Paul I Paul, I love this quote...an absolute peach. Do you have any others of his? :-) Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:58:08 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Return (NJC) Eric Taylor wrote: > > Jason made my day: > GREAT to have you back Jason! > We missed you! wow... *staggers back in amazement :-) Thank you so much! I had no idea I'd even be missed. > Isn't PWWAM superb? I for one adore the stripped-down sound & think the > latest version of Black Crow is the best yet. Also loved seeing all of > Joni's new paintings - particularly the close-up of the snow covered road at > the end of Facelift (which I like even better than the studio version). & it > was so good to see Wally's radiant smile backing Joni all the way. Oh yes, PWWAM was a stunning production in all aspects. It was released here in the UK around March, which is when I got my copy. I watched it that same evening. Apologies if this has already been discussed, but I'd love to know where folks like Wally and others from this list are seated, and at which points they are caught on camera. I thought the presentation of the show, with the soft lighting and round of sofas, was very striking and perfectly suited to Joni's music. I'd have DIED to have the chance to be seated on one of those sofas! :-) > Yes the Joni-only tweaking is working wonderfully. & you're SO right - > no other discussion group I've found out there can match the caliber of the > JMDL. Indeed. One day back, and I've already come across many wonderfully-written and expressed posts. Way to go! :-) Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:04:10 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: NJC: snobs, Connie, and pussycats Patrick Mead wrote: > > As for the "what's in a name" thread, I will contribute the name of an > unfortunate girl from my own high school: Connie Buttrucker. And along > similar lines, I must say I am surprised that the following choice of words > from our own catman didn't spawn a thread all its own (not that I will > start one!): > > >If we weren't in different countries Catgirl and Catman could see eachothers > >pussies ... > > Hmmm. > Let's not even go there..... Knowing Colin, perhaps it was not purely unintentional. Made me chuckle all the same.... :-) Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 06:49:13 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: joni's take on punk & disco << My guess is her thoughts on both punk and disco were not too positive. >> Uh oh, someone said the *d* word again. To refresh: It's a matter of record that Joni has said that she likes (maybe liked, now) some disco music and fancies herself a dancer. We've been there, done that thread on the JMDL at length, right Paul I? ;-) Can't speak for her feeling on punk, but it's tough to imagine her diving headlong into a mosh pit. - -Julius np: X, Live ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:51:40 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC: snobs, Connie, and pussycats Although I am aware it has other connotations, the term pussy is used a lot here to refer to cats and nothing else! now I can't help it if you foreigners have dirty minds! bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 06:50:43 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: some songwriters can't sing (so what) (NJC) In a message dated 6/24/99 1:08:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hell@ihug.co.nz writes: > I have quite a few Bob > Dylan albums, and I do like his style of singing (or some would say > "non-singing"!) - IMO it compliments the type of songs he writes, but this > version of "Lay, Lady Lay" is quite a welcome change! I've dissed Dylan a bit lately since he still hasn't learned to share mics with girls but as much as I find Time Out Of Mind (his latest which won the Grammy) brooding and self-indulgent, I have to say that to this day he continues to write songs that suit his "non-singing" voice very well. That is a genius in and of itself. Take care, Gina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:52:01 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: "Art snobs" NJC Hi Debra-phew! I was beginning to think I was in the Twilight Zone! I was more concerned I wasn't making myself clear than anything else-I have a fear of that. And just so you know, I thoroughly enjoyed this exchange and learned from it and not once did I feel angry or attacked. i didn't consider it an argument or bickering. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:52:13 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: ...in a name (NJC) Thanks for the morning LOL! luv Fonda Dicks Too Mark or Travis wrote: > > guess I have to throw this in: my first great love, aside from my > huge crush on Joni, in the Cellar days had the last name of Barr... > and OF COURSE she had a sister named Candy! > > This thread was going on while I was away and reading through all the > digests I wanted to chime in but figured it was dead. But now that > Pat has resurrected it, I think I can top all of you. At the > University of Northern Iowa in the early 70's there was a woman named > Fonda Dicks. I kid you not. Although I never actually met this > unfortunate person I do remember seeing the name in the student > directory and was friends with a woman who said she had played against > Fonda's basketball team in high school. > > Mark in Seattle - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:13:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Holliston Subject: re: songwriters and singing (NJC) Simon s*id: "besides, some songwriters can't sing for sh*t!" And Bob added: "Burt Bacharach, Randy Newman, Kris Kristofferson .... to name 3" And I add: Stephen Sondheim: great songwriter, truly terrible singer no matter how one tries to rationalize.... Roberto ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:24:39 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: joni's take on punk & disco Lisa Peakes wrote: > I > sure can't imagine her at a cash register checkout with an armload of the > top 20. Does she go to parties where people (other musicians) play their > latest material? Does she live in a vaccuum - only listening to Piaf and > Miles? LOL....what a thought! Joni weighed down with Britney, TLC et al.... :-) It's tempting (and perhaps all too easy) to assume that our SIQUOMB is rather on the insular side and not interested in the mainstream of modern music. I'm sure, though, that certain artists around at the moment must catch her ears....whether overheard in a bar/restaurant/store (Joni does shop, right? ) or at some private function/gathering....... IMHO, I think Joni could have/would have "done" disco very well...with her natural flair for rhythm. Also...um....while we're at it, a Tod Terry remix of Big Yellow Taxi, anyone? Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 07:50:14 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: joni's take on punk & disco Lisa asks: <> I've noticed in all the interviews with Joni the two things she will inevitably say are that (1) She's a painter first;(2) She pays no attention to popular music and is only familiar with songs from the 40's & 50's...BUT in the same interviews she praises Janet Jackson's "Got 'til it's Gone", criticizes other popular songwriters who get compared to her saying their songs aren't near as complex as hers, talks about loving the music of The Police, talks about listening to a new radio station for a week before passing judgement on it, etc. So, c'mon Joni, I love ya' but who are kidding? We all know you're listening to EVERYTHING, because you love music as much as we do! And btw, you ARE the best! :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 07:56:17 -0400 From: Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: some songwriters can't sing for **** (NJC) Simon in a very non-disagreeing way says: <> I do like Randy Newman a lot and I now think I was too hasty in adding him to my list. Besides, I'm a huge Tom Waits fan as well and his voice falls in the same category. I particularly enjoyed hearing Randy's voice in "Toy Story".... Do we get "do-over's" on the JMDL? :~) Bob NPIMH: Randy Newman, "You've Got A Friend in Me" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:40:19 -0400 (EDT) From: w evans Subject: Re: Posall, bootlegs > Not completely true. Especially if it is rare, it may show up in the future as > another illegal bootleg from another source. It happens all the time. And if > Joni were to ever want to release any of her early live work in the future, > these boots WILL affect the value of her work. Case in point, a boot exists of > an early Barbara Streisand live show from her days in the Village. The tapes > were made by a "friend" with whom she had a falling out. Her lawyers have > steadfastly gone after anyone who sells or tries to "reboot" the recording > because it very greatly affected the value of her fabulous box set For the > Record. For her fans and consumers this contains far superior early live > recordings. And this is only one example. > > Jerry I'm not much into Babs, but I checked "For The Record" out of the library once just to find out what she's about, and it looked like a rather comprehensive collection spanning her entire career up to that point, and the sort of thing that I can't imagine any fan of hers who would take the trouble to seek out and find a bootleg recording would NOT buy, in fact I would be extremely suprised if any such person would not consider that box an absolutely essential purchase. Over on rec.music.dylan, there was a lot of discussion about the "Live 1966" 2cd that Columbia put out last fall, of Bob and the Band's most famous concert recording from Manchester, England, and every single person who posted about it said they'd had one of the many bootlegs of that show that have been circulating for 30 years. The only people who buy bootlegs are truly rabid fans and an official release, with always superior sound quality and comprehensive liner notes and information, is ALWAYS purchased by these sorts of people. I just got the Second Fret Sets, and while it's very good I am certain the sound would be better and the interesting essay included in a potential release that Joni would put together of her early stuff is something I would snap up in a second. I can not believe that bootlegs of rare material adversely affects the bottom line of the artist or their record company one bit. Pirating, yes, because that fools casual fans into buying what they think is the same thing, but that's a whole different issue. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:43:14 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: some songwriters can't sing (so what) (NJC) "Helen M. Adcock" wrote: > > > On a side note, I have a version of Bob Dylan singing "Lay, Lady Lay", in > which he is almost unrecognisable - he sings "normally" (for want of a > better word - maybe I should say "conventionally") and though perhaps a > little nasal, he has quite a pleasant singing voice. It's was recorded right after he quit smoking. I'd say it was worth it. One of my favorites of his. Jerry np: Laurie Beechman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:48:06 -0500 From: James Leahy Subject: Joni Sightings in Toronto The Toronto Star's Rita Zekas just missed seeing Joni at the exclusive restaurant Prego by minutes. Evidently Her Blondness has been dining there a lot while visiting Toronto. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:52:30 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: Re: JoNi & eBaY >I agree and would prefer the rather long >Ebay lists stay off of jmdl; Did someone ask for your/our preferences? If someone did, and I missed it, I would prefer "the rather long" diatribes about "how "Blue" changed my life", or "why schoolkids should all be armed", or "My Favorite FillintheBlank" threads, would stay off the list, BUT IT DON'T WORK THAT WAY, Randy. I have no control over what gets posted and neither do you. This is a VERY prolific group who like to discuss all kinds of things. One can not justifiably complain about content that is of no interest to that particular person. Read what interests you. And if something does not interest you, just skip it, and move on, as I do with at least half the stuff posted here, and I'm on the Joni Only list! >whoever wants to can check Ebay >themselves. RR IF they know about it, remember to check it, and have web access. And what if they do, and wish to discuss an item to learn more about it? Is that OK with you, Randy? >ps I also agree with CatGirl that the prices >for Joni stuff on Ebay are getting >ridiculous. Anyone who bids a "ridiculous" price either deserves to lose their money, or does not find the price "ridiculous". Not everybody defines ridiculous the same as you, me, or Catgirl. That said, I agree that many of the prices are, IMO, ridiculous. At the same time, IMO, many gr8 bargains can be found as well. >Thank you! Going to eBay is as easy as >typing it in and hitting GO! OK everyone is >that easy enough? Not everyone can do this, Catgirl, and some that can, forget, and appreciate the reminders. >Catgirl....getting a little tired of all the >bickering about everything...can we now >talk about Joni? Are we bickering, debating or discussing? Depends on each individual's definition, does it not? And we are talking about Joni and her various items for auction at eBay. Or perhaps we should move on to penises & Joni. Also, I was going to respond to your earlier post about bidding against other listers, but Catman said basically what I would have said. Except, I might add that I do not understand this line of reasoning. If you want something you should bid for it. Deferring to another lister is not going to bring the item YOU want, to YOU. All this nice concern for your fellow listers is admirable indeed, but it leads me to believe that the item in question is not something you really wanted to begin with, if you're willing to let someone else get it simply because they bid first. Everyone, you are all (with few exceptions) very nice, interesting people whom I would love to meet, trade with, and discuss things with, whether or not we agree on what is being discussed, but if I saw something on Ebay that I really wanted, I would bid against my own sainted Mother to get whatever it was. gdave - ----------------------------------------------------------------- DaveBase @ www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:17:22 -0500 From: Heather Galli Subject: RE: You Are Your Car/"Art snobs" Patrick wrote: <> >i know it's hard to believe, given my demonstrated jmdl brilliance, but i am >and nearly always have been a very low-income worker. partly because i >spent 20 years pursuing a career as a dancer and am now transitioning >alongside people much younger than me. But you look so young!!! Remember from Fried Green Tomatoes ....Towanda!! >the met opera and the ny state theater have standing room for under $15. >you can almost always move into decent seats. downtown dance performances >are priced between $8 and $15. out of reach? no, no... all it takes is a >little effort, but our education system has given up on teaching kids that >it might be worth the effort to see 'Theater, dance and musical >performances'. that's a true trajedy. Yes it is! Our god child is a very talent artist at the young age of 12. She doesn't do too well in math and science but musically and artistically she is very talented. In her school system (here in Connecticut) they cut back the art and music programs (grrrrrr) so her mom pays fro private music lessons and art classes. I get to take her to the museums and get her involved in classes there. Just think ..... there may be many other children loosing out. Who the hell ever thought of cutting back on the arts in school?? It drives me mad! There should be "take your children to a museum day". Art is history .... art is life. >gina, i think you live on the eastern seaboard, no? come to ny and i'll >show you a cheap, culturally amazing time. there are many jmdlers who can >vouch for me. and i have a complete blast, sharing my loves with folks. I'll bring you to NYC, Gina! We'll go see Patrick together! Love to all, Heather ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:19:01 -0400 From: Kay_Ashley@ars.aon.com Subject: what's in a name... NJC Wow, Fonda Dicks. That's pretty incredible. Check this out: in the 6th grade, I had a sex ed teacher named Harry Ball. I kid you not. Kay ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:29:23 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: You Are Your Car/"Art snobs" In a message dated 6/24/99 9:15:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Gallih@ccsu.edu writes: > There should be "take your children to a museum day". > Art is history .... art is life. > My 12 year old daughter, Meredith, who is bored to tears in a museum like the Met, recently accompanied us to our new MoMA here in Western Massachusetts. She absolutely loved it! She found the art fascinating, not only in concept but in the techniques and materials used. She was giddy over the fact that some art can be interactive! She had a blast and has been asking to go back, so we've purchased a family membership. We live in the middle of nowhere (truly beautiful spot) so having Mass MoCA 20 minutes from our home feels like a real treat. We attended the grand opening which was kicked off with a concert by Los Lobos and a tasty barbecue. What a blast! Later this summer we will be seeing Joan Armatrading there. MoMA is cool. It's a complex of old renovated factory buildings in North Adams, which is capable of housing works previously too large to exhibit anywhere else. The factory setting seems perfect for some of the works we looked at. David Byrne of the Talking Heads had an exhibit of his work there before the place was fully available to the public, but I missed it. Heather, I think your idea of "bring a child to a museum" day is fantastic! I'm going to try to encourage my children's school to take a field trip there in the coming school year and I'd be more than happy to play hooky from work to go along as a chaperone! Take care, Gina NP: Tracy Chapman - Matters Of The Heart ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 06:30:52 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: The snob over there Helen wonders: > P.S. Is there something in the atmosphere at the moment, that's affecting > everyone? Lots of people here seems to be getting snippy, it's happening on > the Lee-Shore too (the CSN list), and even my friends have been getting > shitty over nothing. What's going on? Mercury must be in retrograde (again!). Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:01:20 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: some songwriters can't sing (so what) (NJC) Personally I'll take his rendition of "Everybody must get stoned" and "Highway 61". Bob as a crooner ? Hey whats next Bob doing "People" or "Send in the clowns". Got to have it. marcel. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:09:21 -0500 From: Heather Galli Subject: Re: The snob over there >Helen wonders: and even my friends have been >getting >> shitty over nothing. What's going on? > WELL! Let's get out the cyber Milk of Magnesia ..... pick you favorite Joni song and sing it loud! Sing it proud! Ya think that'll do it? > >Mercury must be in retrograde (again!). > I don't know Mark .... looks like it's a full moon coming on also .... Heather ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:07:37 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: what's in a name... NJC Guess I've been bitten by the Austin Powers bug, but the mention of a name like Fonda Dicks makes me think what an absolutely shagtastic name it would make for one of the female characters in a future sequel :-) Oh, BEEEEEE-HAAAAAAAAVE!!!! Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:26:43 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: what's in a name... NJC The new Madonna song is from: AUSTIN POWERS-THE SPY WHO SHAGGED ME!!!!!! I thought that was amusing especially as carly sang the theme Nobody Does It Better(which one an oscar for its writers-not Carly) for The Spy Who Loved Me ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:11:23 -0500 From: Lori Subject: My Joni-free MRIs -- NJC I didn't intend to make a big deal out of these MRIs, but when I asked you all for suggestions for music to be still by, I was surprised at the response and expressions of concern I received. After sorting through several sets of conflicting info from my insurance company , I found I needed to have my scans done somewhere else. And this place didn't have speakers set up yet for music... BUT I've been listening to the great Joni CDs -- some I hadn't had out in a long time -- at home. The MRIs were rescheduled for Mon - Wed of this week and went just fine, except I was uncomfortable during Tuesday's because of the position I was in. My one arm fell so dead asleep it was painful. But big woo. It was still fairly easy. The funny thing was when the tech, after more than an hour of scanning the thoracic part of my spine (which is where my curve is) told me, "Your scoliosis is really bad. Did you know that?" (It's not so apparent to the casual observer.) Seems he was trying to "take a picture" of my spine in the middle of my back, where it oughta be and didn't find it there. You'd think in this day and age of health care he would have known I wouldn't be sent for MRIs ($$$) without a pretty advanced condition. Anyhoo, I sure appreciate all the kind attention I received from this fine group. Rest assured I'm doing just great. And this whole thing has given me the idea to bring my own Joni when I enter the hospital for surgery in Sept., and think about the positive vibrations several of you've sent my way. Lori Allen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:24:56 -0400 From: Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.com Subject: NJC Re: You Are Your Car/"Art snobs" Gina commented: <> Boy, that IS a great idea Heather! I pledge this weekend to take my son to the Greenville Civil War Museum and also to the Art Museum. He's been wanting to see the former which we haven't seen, so I'll have to force him to do the latter as part of the deal. When he was a baby I used to go all the time with him in the backpack, hoping an early exposure to art would rub off...scratch that theory... Besides, they have that ridiculous "Take Your Child to Work" day thingy, and that's plain silly..."Here's my cubicle son, here's where I spend 10 hours a day in my mind-numbing dead end job in the service industry, aren't you excited about what the future holds for you?" :~) (Although I must admit as a kid I liked going to the weather station where my Dad worked so I could take a hit of helium and talk funny. Maybe that's why I ain't right...too much helium in my system...*:~D) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:20:01 -0500 From: Heather Galli Subject: Re: My Joni-free MRIs -- NJC >Anyhoo, I sure appreciate all the kind attention I received from this fine >group. Rest assured I'm doing just great. And this whole thing has given me >the idea to bring my own Joni when I enter the hospital for surgery in >Sept., and think about the positive vibrations several of you've sent my way. > Good luck with your surgery, Lori! Please keep me posted! Heather ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:26:56 -0500 From: Heather Galli Subject: Re: NJC Re: You Are Your Car/"Art snobs" > > Besides, they have that ridiculous "Take Your Child to Work" > day thingy, and that's plain silly..."Here's my cubicle son, > here's where I spend 10 hours a day in my mind-numbing dead end > job in the service industry, aren't you excited about what the > future holds for you?" :~) > (Although I must admit as a kid I liked going to the weather > station where my Dad worked so I could take a hit of helium and > talk funny. Maybe that's why I ain't right...too much helium in > my system...*:~D) > Hey Bob - Do you still take hits of helium so you can sing Joni tunes? ;-) Have you seen this ridiculously funny commercial for Monster.Com where the kids say things like "when I grow up I want to take early retirement" and "when I grow up I want to be paid less for doing the same job as others" Kind shocks reality into you. Heather ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:21:27 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: joni vs johnny rotten From: andrew power Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 02:52:39 PDT Don <> yeah don - but uk punk schlepped into existence circa '74 - late '70's was already its nadir also: punk vs the sixties - the pistols realeased an ep called 'never trust a hippy' - and punk was projectile vomiting at the complacency of wishy washy sixties idealism - the capital of which was california (uber alles) the continental european '60's, on the other hand, were more about molotov, rather than flower, power - and punk's seeds were sown by the situationists of the may '68 rising of paris uk punk was pretty much anti-american anyhow, and this tendency lasted into the political bands of the new wave (who, for the most part, recanted when the '80's gave them the chance to make megabucks) frankly - US punk never instilled terror into a nation as much as uk punk did i'm not saying USpunk was weedy, but it lacked the context of: 1 british classism 2 the royal family - espcially a silver jubilee to focus its hate on 3 an origin in working class youth, and the foreshadowing decline of the british economy - and therefore much of the despair and anger punk fed on US punk was more of a cultural, not social, movement - dissipated by the size of the states, based in NY with its own art-house traditions, with disco a form of expression (ie: a desire for upward mobility - teh american dream) for most working class folks - black and white - as US punk had very little to offer black youth - while uk punk had a strong anti-racist current, even if most punks were white, mixed in with its nihilism so - in refeence to joni... it's funny that this ties in with the joan baez threads - i don't see joni as being political at all - not even personal-political, or feminist joni's value is that all her music is self-centred - how she (or we as the listeners) experiences relationships, sees other people and their stories, and smarts with us and our affairs joan's value is that of a political performer measuring the two against eachother plays into the sex-formatting - white male artists are seen as being in different genres, while females or non-whites thrown into their respective bags joni is uniquely her own genre/format - one of the hallmarks of a great aritist for myself, i'm more interested in joni's context at any given time during the making of any given album thanks for the spark that got me writing this don! drw ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:27:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: You MIGHT be a snob if ... (NJC) I'm feeling inspired by Rev. Vince's HYSTERICAL post, so in my best Jeff Foxworthy immpression, let me suggest that ... If you have ever spilled an almond latte on your Gardner's Art Through the Ages ... Suggested that imagism is simply decadent ... Used the word "conflate" in casual conversation ... Recited whole sections of narration from Kenneth Clarke's "Civilization" ... Ruined a friendship by expressing that, in your own humble opinion, M.C. Esher was merely a clever draftsman ... then you MIGHT be a snob! Don Rowe n.p. "Another Green World" -- Eno -- which obviously isn't helping matters ... _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:44:17 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: joni vs johnny rotten-NJC > From: andrew power an interesting post. I'd like to interject a few comments. > uk punk was pretty much anti-american anyhow wasn't johnny rottens favorite target bands like Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd, Emerson Lake & Palmer, the Queen.....? > frankly - US punk never instilled terror into a nation as much as uk punk > did I don't think US punk ever got the press ink or reached a critical mass with the music buying public. Also UK society has always been more civil, so punk was more of a shock. We have a rich history of violence (Cowboys and Indians, Civil War, etc....). I agree that whatever happens here (musically, anyway) tends to get lost in the mix-there's always so much going in a geographically much larger spread out space. > i'm not saying USpunk was weedy, but it lacked the context of: > > 1 british classism > 2 the royal family - espcially a silver jubilee to focus its hate on > 3 an origin in working class youth, and the foreshadowing decline of the > british economy - and therefore much of the despair and anger punk fed on > > US punk was more of a cultural, not social, movement - dissipated by the > size of the states, based in NY with its own art-house traditions You seem to be referring more to New Wave (?). Talking Heads and Blondie are not punk. I'm sure there was a punk movement in NY, but had nothing to do with art students. I may be wrong, but I think the US punk movement was more a midwest and SF bay area thing, I mean real punk, beer for breakfast pukin on stage and all that immature nonesense. As far as politics goes, Dead Kennedys for starters-certainly addressed issues of class division, mocked the hippies and liberal government-California uber allies, their first release made a sprouthead of Gov Jerry Brown (then we got a slew of Republican nazi governors-happy now, Jello? ; ) ) Also the not well known Lookouts, fronted by a guy I knew named Lawrence Livermore. Their drummer went on to be in some band called Green Day. The Lookout label and the whole east bay-Berkeley punk scene was full of "message punk". The very fact that anytime a punk band has success it is considered irrelevant to the scene, as well as the general fact that it's mainly an underground movement means it's hard to generalize or comment about it. Not that that has stopped us. RR ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:03:43 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: JoNi & eBaY gr8fuldave wrote: > >I agree and would prefer the rather long > >Ebay lists stay off of jmdl; > > Did someone ask for your/our preferences? No, I was just giving my opinion, which others may or may not agree with. I didn't know I was supposed to wait until someone asked. > > Read what interests you. And if something does > not interest you, just skip it, and move on I don't have any problem with that, in fact I do it regularly. > >whoever wants to can check Ebay > >themselves. RR > > IF they know about it, remember to check it, and have web access. And > what if they do, and wish to discuss an item to learn more about it? Is > that OK with you, Randy? I guess so. If someone doesn't remember to check it, that's their level of interest. I assume everyone has web access. If they don't, how do they bid, or even go to eBay? > I might add that I do not understand this line of reasoning. If you want > something you should bid for it. I agree. You will just be bidding against another Joni fan anyway, whether they are on the list (or even know about it) or not. RR ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:10:27 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: joni vs johnny rotten/Political Joni In a message dated 99-06-24 12:28:55 EDT, les@jmdl.com writes: >it's funny that this ties in with the joan baez threads - i don't see joni >as being political at all - not even personal-political, or feminist > >joni's value is that all her music is self-centred - how she (or we as the >listeners) experiences relationships, sees other people and their stories, >and smarts with us and our affairs > > I don't disagree with this statement. I, too, do not see Joni as political or feminist. The "political" songs that people have listed in relation to the Joan/Joni thread as being political as, in my eyes, more of the "self centered" approach as described by Andrew above. I have been wondering about what makes an artist "political." Is it just the words? Is it the subject? What makes "Not To Blame" less political than Baez's "Prison Triology?" Aren't both songs the artist's "self-centered" view of a situation? Is a "political" artist one who follows up the song, (in this case), with other actions? Who makes sure that the public knows what the song is about rather than just putting the work out for individual interpretation? Although Joni has performed at several of the "Aid" concerts, political performing does not seem to be a raison d'etre for her. Certainly with the subject of feminism, she insists and insists that she is not one, yet reaps the rewards and paves the way for women. >>>joni is uniquely her own genre/format - one of the hallmarks of a great aritist for myself, i'm more interested in joni's context at any given time during the making of any given album This final paragraph pretty much brought a halt to my musing. She IS unique with her own genre/format. My personal interests lie far more in her emotional fuel that creates the work. MG np: Grandma's Last Day In Town. (AKA what a long strange trip it's been.........) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:28:31 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: joni vs johnny rotten-NJC guitarzan writes: << I may be wrong, but I think the US punk movement was more a midwest and SF bay area thing, I mean real punk, beer for breakfast pukin on stage and all that immature nonesense. >> I think you're quite right, at least about the Bay Area punk scene in the late 70s. May have been a cultural backlash to the area being so closely identified with the earlier disco scene. In fact, there are still vestiges of punk "culture," if you will, being perpetuated by many generation Xers in the area. Drew said: <> I'm not so sure about that. One of my best friends back then, who is black, was lead singer in a power trio punk band called Whipping Boy (one of the great punk band names of all time, IMO). Their following was predominantly white, but had a much larger percentage of blacks than were represented in the general population around here. And later, there was Fishbone, who also spoke to a large black contingent. Anti-racism was de rigueur among these, and some other punk bands of that era in the Bay Area, naturally. - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:48:10 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: The snob over there In a message dated 99-06-24 09:49:10 EDT, mark-n-travis@worldnet.att.net writes: >> the Lee-Shore too (the CSN list), and even my friends have been >getting >> shitty over nothing. What's going on? > > >Mercury must be in retrograde (again!). > > Nah, it's my mother. She's still here and is getting on EVERYONE"S nerves! MG - 24 hours to go ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:54:47 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: joni vs johnny rotten-NJC Randy wrote: > I may be wrong, but > I think the US punk movement was more a midwest and SF bay area > thing, I mean real punk, beer for breakfast pukin on stage and all > that immature nonesense. I really didn't follow Punk but know there was a thriving Punk scene in L.A. in the 70s, too. L.A. has a significantly large British population and many of the bands appearing regularly in Hollywood were from the U.K. I have a group of friends (both American and British) who lived that scene back then and still live it a bit to this day. The L.A. Weekly has done some retrospective issues of the Punk glory days in L.A. and my friends are always pointing themselves out in the photos ;-) However, I ran more with the New Wave pack in those days. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:46:59 -0400 From: Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: joni vs johnny rotten-NJC Randy said: <> Besides the Kennedys, Black Flag (with Henry Rollins) was West Coast and very politically charged. Henry's still pretty active and still seems to be dabbling in the same kind of thing. Anyway, as far as Johnny Rotten, wasn't he really just a puppet for Malcolm McLaren? Once the Pistol's 15 minutes were up, he moved on to Public Image Ltd. which was not exactly the same thing...(?) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:16:34 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Ian Mathews "Woodstock" Steve Dulson >Ian also recorded several of Richard Farina's songs, and in >addition to Southern Comfort was in the band Plainsong. I >believe he is based on the US east coast these days. Iain is a friend of mine, and he sang on one tune of my album Usually/Always (Windham Hill). In fact, he was the one who signed me to Windham Hill as he was briefly working A&R for them at the time, and, in fact, I think I'm the only artist he signed before he quit A&R and signed with them as an artist himself. His lone Windham Hill album is a gem: Walking A Changing Line, an album of Jules Shear songs. I arranged and played on two of them, and contributed a short tune of my own. Iain and I have also written some songs together which have yet to be recorded. Iain has continued to write and record beautiful albums of thoughtful songs, and he sings like a bird. Most recently he was living in Austin, Texas. - -Fred Simon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 21:29:10 +0100 From: Martin Giles Subject: Re:A good artist copies but...NJC <"A good artist copies but a great artist steals"? > I always say "Originality is the art of concealing one's sources". And who here knows whether I made that up myself or not? :-) Martin. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:52:32 +0100 From: Martin Giles Subject: Art Snobs/Brian Sewell NJC > In JMDL Digest V4 #272- catman wrote.. > snob. i defy anyone to read his or listen to his reviews and not see what a snob > he is!> Haha, you defy me do you?? Brian Sewell was someone that for a long, long time I couldn't cope with because of his outrageous 'plummy' accent. I still can't believe that its not put on, in fact. The funny thing is though, that once I managed to get past how he sounds, I realized that he is far from an art snob. To me, he seems to spend quite a lot of time crying, "The King is in the altogether....". He is very conservative in his taste, and I don't always agree with him, but its good to have someone having a go at contemporary art's more peculiar manifestations IMHO. He's also wickedly funny at times. So, take that! As for your art history class, I know how you feel, I went to art college and had the same experience. Most of my fellow students, and all of the lecturers were scoring points all the time in a game called 'How sophisticated am I?' It was a pain, and it put me off the whole thing. Knowledge is a weird thing though. I know a lot more about music than I do about 'art', and I'm aware that if I knew as much about art as I do music I would have completely different taste. I know that I react on a very basic, gut level to art, (liking or disliking without really knowing why). But with music, in addition to my gut reactions, I have a whole layer of 'educated' reasons. I catch myself being very dismissive of people who don't know anything about music and their consequently primitive taste, but know that I shouldn't because I'm on the other end when it comes to the visual arts. The point is that I know that my appreciation of music is all the deeper because of my greater knowledge, and that if I had another go at learning something about art, I would probably get as much from that too. (By the way, when I say I know a lot about music, I'm no professor - I'm a recording engineer and an average guitarist. That's all.) Martin. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:56:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Mysteries was Art Snobs/Brian Sewell NJC - --- Martin Giles wrote: > Brian Sewell was someone that for a long, long time > I couldn't cope with > because of his > outrageous 'plummy' accent. I still can't believe > that its not put on, > in fact. This is one of the great remaining mysteries. And despite the best efforts of scientists and politicians to make the world both predictable and boring, such enigmas still exist if you know where to look. For example, to paraphrase and augment (I'm not a great artist, so I just borrow) the great Ian Shoals: Why does Ted Koppel comb his hair that way, and why is he always smiling? Is William F. Buckley really as smart as he thinks he is? Is "Not to Blame" about Jackson Browne ... or O.J.? What was just a false alarm? Can anybody accurately transcribe Louie-Louie? Why are we still listening to Henry Kissinger? What is the *real* title of joni's first album? (attention Paul and Simon -- this is a joke, please don't feel the need to send me the 25K bot response ...) ;-D And the answers my friend ... are blowin' in the wind. I ought to know ... I gotta go! Don Rowe _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #277 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! 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