From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #274 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Wednesday, June 23 1999 Volume 04 : Number 274 The Laborday JoniFest is happening this fall! For information: send a message to Join the mailing list at: ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Tape Tree #2 [evian ] Re: the high tidemark of the sixties [JRMCo1@aol.com] The Posall and the Mosalm [Patrick Mead ] Art Snobs NJC [dsk ] Re: "Art snobs" NJC [dsk ] Re: Win video cds of Joni, Joan and other greats! [Krys & Geoff ] Re: Win video cds of Joni, Joan and other greats! [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: The Boho Dance [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: Southern Comfort (jc) [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: "Art snobs" NJC [catman ] Return (NJC) [Jason Maloney ] Mingus Vinyl Gatefold? Yes. [simon@icu.com] Re: JoNi & eBaY [kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)] Re: You Are Your Car/"Art snobs" NJC [Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordan] Re: The Boho Dance ["P. Henry" ] Re: "Art snobs" NJC [dsk ] Re: "Art snobs" NJC [Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.com] Re: The Posall and the Mosalm [Jerry Notaro ] Joni lith on eBay [Mark Domyancich ] Re: The Posall and the Mosalm [Patrick Mead ] Re: You Are Your Car/"Art snobs" NJC [luvart@snet.net] Re: The Boho Dance ["P. Henry" ] Re: JoNi & eBaY [CaTGirl627@aol.com] what's the joke? ["P. Henry" ] Lyrics quiz ["Reuben Bell3" ] Hissing: Worst Album? [Les Irvin ] blue fans [Bounced Message ] atrociuos joni covers [Bounced Message ] apology ["P. Henry" ] Re: ...in a name (NJC) ["P. Henry" ] Re: "Art snobs" NJC [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: "Art snobs" NJC [catman ] Re: Hissing: Worst Album? [SMEBD@aol.com] Vinyl For Sale! [DreamZvil@aol.com] Re: blue fans [Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 01:24:13 -0600 From: evian Subject: Tape Tree #2 Casey wrote: > I'm not Evian, but I would love to have a copy of this tape tree. > LOL, well... ok, I am gonna finally throw it out... would anyone be willing to tape me ANY tape tree tapes (although TT#2 sounds pretty damn cool)? I just stocked up on blank tapes today since I had to tape my father a belated Father's Day ABBA tape (don't ask). I hate asking for these kind of things because I know it must be a pain to take the time to tape stuff, and send it, and blah blah blah, and after I got our wonderful Bob to tape me that cheesy movie so my sister and I could go down memory lane, and our wonderful Roberto sent me the Mojo and Carly mags, and of course our resident Ashara for everything, I swore I would never ask anyone again here for a favor, lest I appear... leachy... but... James and Joni... I mean.... it's worth grovelling for! Anyway, if anyone wants to help, thanks. Evian np: Talking Heads "Sand in the Vaseline" (album title of the decade, imo) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 03:42:31 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: the high tidemark of the sixties My apologies. What I said was kinda reactionary, wasn't it? May I suggest the term "cathartic" for what you were expressing? Guess I've got a bit of a hair trigger on my gag reflex. :-) Respectfully, Julius Bob.Muller kindly said: << I didn't mean anything negative about Blue by using the phrase "emotional vomiting" Julius, although it sounds disgusting, I was just referring to the process where you try to get in touch with the depth of your emotions and get them out. Perhaps I've never had any (disappointments)?!? Whaddya think, I live in a vaccuum? :~) Bob >> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:51:11 -0700 From: Patrick Mead Subject: The Posall and the Mosalm JMDL'ers: We sure seem to be getting mighty excited about eBay around here lately. The item entitled "The Posall and the Mosalm" is a very old bootleg vinyl lp, which dates back at least 25 years. All the hysteria about "piece of crap" sound quality, and bootlegging, being raised in connection with an auction like this misses the point (though I can't help but wonder how the person who knows it to be a "piece of crap" found out that it was...perhaps through purchasing a copy at one point in time?). The reason that a person might want to bid on "The Posall and the Mosalm" is not because they expect it an audiophile-quality pressing to which they will listen frequently. They will bid on it because it is an old, scarce, Joni Mitchell related curiosity, with modest interest as a collectible for someone trying to build a comprehensive vinyl collection. As an object that was pressed in tiny quantities a quarter of a century ago, no "bootlegger" will profit from it as it changes hands now, it is just another used record being bought and sold with no profit or loss to anyone but the two parties involved in the sale. Leave the bidders and seller in peace, zealots, they will bring no harm to the house of Joni. Let's not get our underwear in a bundle, ok? /Pat mailto:pmead@pacbell.net CD-R, cassette & video tape trades: ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 04:02:43 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Art Snobs NJC Eric Taylor wrote: > > You're reading an insult into my comment that was not directed at the > JMDL but rather the art world at large. You did not make that clear so, of course, I read your post in the context of the current discussion about art and, being a participant in that discussion, your comment struck me as insulting, not just to me but to everyone who'd taken part. The discussion about art last Fall also ended with you using the art snob phrase, which I didn't like then either but let pass without comment. This second time I'm more annoyed. So in an attempt to clear the air, here are my thoughts. > Granted I get miffed that many > people on this list dismiss Joni's paintings as unoriginal and exclude her > from the long thread about great artists of the 20th Century. In my opinion, Joni's artwork is pretty, beautiful even, always well done, sometimes moving, with lots of variety and trying out of different styles, ALL VERY GOOD THINGS. And I very much want to see her work in person (in Canada next summer if not before) with my eyes and heart wide open. But your insistence that she be considered one of the great artists of the 20th century takes it beyond Joni's personal development as an artist and causes me to compare her work with that of artists who, at this point in time anyway, ARE considered to be the great artists of the century. Even they were influenced by earlier artists (as Joni is), but the so-called great artists were innovators who took that initial influence and created something unique, something not seen before. Joni's done that in music; you'd have no argument with me about that. But as far as her artwork goes, she hasn't. I can look at most of her paintings, and not just the recent ones, and see who she's copied, or been greatly influenced by (for that painting anyway), so to think of her as one of the great artists of the 20th Century doesn't make any sense. And why do you think she has to be anyway? Maybe she'll live another 50 years (I hope so) and turn out to be one of the great artists of the 21st century. Once she's worked out all her influences, there's no telling what she might come up with. But at this point she's painting as though she's living in the 1800s. > Does the fact that I enjoy Joni's paintings a lot more than Picasso's > mean that I know little about art? The fact that you enjoy Joni's paintings more than Picasso's says nothing at all about your knowledge of art. But you don't talk about what you enjoy so much about Joni's art. Instead, your emphasis is on claiming she's the most innovative artist of the 20th century, or one of the greatest. Who are you comparing her to? Obviously it's not the same artists I have in mind. OR, when you speak of Joni's art in that context, is it just your way of saying you REALLY REALLY REALLY like her work, and it's not a comparison of her work to other artists at all. This is just a guess on my part, based on thinking of you as a good guy who loves Joni, but I gotta tell you, your words alone don't convey this simpler interpretation. And, please, don't use the art snob phrase again (or at least try not to). I don't even know exactly what you mean by it, and believe you when you say it wasn't directed at me (actually I never took it to be ONLY directed toward me), but whoever it's directed toward, it feels insulting and dismissive. If Joni's artwork is going to be considered in the context of "art of the century", then I can't ignore what I happen to know about that subject. OK, I've had my say. That's it. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 04:31:27 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: "Art snobs" NJC Ginamu@aol.com wrote: > > In regard to art, I believe there exists a more invisible obstacle and that > is the attitude that art is just for "art snobs". It's really too bad. I find it very frustrating that people expect to know all about art instantly, without actually learning about it, and are so quick to label the people that HAVE bothered to learn about it as "art snobs." It's like being annoyed because someone can play the violin and I can't, even though I've never taken the time to learn how. I just don't get it. DS ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 08:41:23 +0100 From: Krys & Geoff Subject: Re: Win video cds of Joni, Joan and other greats! In message , JRMCo1@aol.com writes > >I've also been reading the Joni/Joan thread with, um, interest. Thought this >would be as good a time as any to announce that I'm sending a double video cd >of the 1970 Isle of Wight Festival (aka Britain's very own Woodstock) to >Ashara to include in one of the Jonifest raffles. > >In addition to live video and sound performances by Joni *and* Joan, the >lucky winner will be treated to performances by Leonard Cohen, Miles Davis, >Donovan, The Doors, Bob Dylan, Jimi Hendrix, Kris Kristofferson, The Moody >Blues, Ten Years After, Tiny Tim, John Sebastian, The Who, Free, Jethro Tull, >the Plastic Ono Band, Free and Emerson, Lake & Palmer. Early congratulations to the lucky winner, whoever s/he may be. I thought that Tom Paxton, another of my favourites, appeared at IoW in 1970. Can you confirm this? Love and peace, Krys XX ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 05:09:35 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: "Art snobs" NJC catman wrote: > > I once did a brief cousrse in art history;it totally ruined art for me. Gone were > the days I could look at a painting and think'that's nice'. The teacher and some > of the pupils spoke in a language I di not understand and werte clearly amused at > my 'ignorant' comments. I think this is why people tend to think of such people > as 'art snobs'. It's unfortunate that you were turned off by your art history course experience. I think my reaction would have been to ignore those people's attitude and learn what they were talking about, in any way I could. But that's because it's a subject I feel passionately about and have ever since I can remember. If I had only a casual interest, then yeah, I guess their attitude would bother me, and I would see them as an exclusive club not inviting me in. But from the other side, it's kind of insulting to the people who do learn and know about art (and feel passionately about it) to have it all reduced to an "it's nice" or "I know what I like" as though it's all as simple and meaningful as coloring books and takes about as much effort to understand. That's just not the case. DS ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 05:11:35 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: Win video cds of Joni, Joan and other greats! Krys XXX writes: I can't confirm or deny Tom Paxson's performance there, Ms Krys. The booklet does mention that the video is culled from over sixty hours of footage, and says that some performers who appeared didn't agree to be filmed. Such lumunaries as James Taylor, Sly and the Family Stone, Supertramp and Neil Young apparently were there but didn't make the video. (Neil and Joni came to the venue together in a rented Rolls Royce, according to the notes.) Paxson's not featured on these videos either, unfortunately. There's plenty of backstage footage though, so you might be able to spot him. If I make it to Jonifest, I'll bring my copy of the video cds and a player for all to enjoy if they wish. - -Julius << >In addition to live video and sound performances by Joni *and* Joan, the >lucky winner will be treated to performances by Leonard Cohen, Miles Davis, >Donovan, The Doors, Bob Dylan, Jimi Hendrix, Kris Kristofferson, The Moody >Blues, Ten Years After, Tiny Tim, John Sebastian, The Who, Free, Jethro Tull, >the Plastic Ono Band, and Emerson, Lake & Palmer.>> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:34:42 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: The Boho Dance - -----Original Message----- From: P. Henry >I just wanted to address the comments that were mead that the song may >have been talking about Chuck... ummm, considering the time frame and >how long it had been that they were apart when this song was written, isn't >this kind of a stretch??? > Fair point Pat. Maybe there's a danger in over analysis. I heard a quote the other night that the writer Brendan Behan said in relation to people trying to figure things out. "I don't know what a swim in the ocean means, I just know I like it." Philip NP Miles remixed by Bill Laswell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:45:40 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Southern Comfort (jc) - -----Original Message----- From: patrick leader >whatever matthews southern comfort did with the song, it didn't have >anything like the impact that csny's version did. That's probably true for the US where csny's inferior version seems to have won the day. I've only heard the csny version once in my life and I listen to a lot. > still, it's only recently i've learned that england got >local, and sometimes very inferior versions of the best of pop writing of >the time. this from a recent bert bachrach special. in the late '60s, when >dionne warwick was recording and having a hit with each new bachrach/david >composition, instead of being released in england they were being recorded >by one cilla black. We got and loved all of Dionne's lovely records. Walk On By and San Jose were huge. Cilla might have had the bigger hit with Anyone Who Had a Heart and Aretha the same with I Say A Little Prayer and Dusty had the hit with Wishin' and Hopin'. I never liked Cilla but I heard Bachrach on tv recently praising her as having the best version of Anyone Who Had a Heart. Philip NP Miles remixed ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:21:54 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: "Art snobs" NJC > > > But from the other side, it's kind of insulting to the people who do > learn and know about art (and feel passionately about it) to have it all > reduced to an "it's nice" or "I know what I like" as though it's all as > simple and meaningful as coloring books and takes about as much effort > to understand. That's just not the case. And it is this kind of statement about art and people such as myself that gives rise to the feeling about art snobs! It is belittling even tho I am sure you don't intend it to be.I guess I might compare this with joni and her music-I really enjoy her music(mostly) but i cannot discuss how she comes by it, how she plays it, or compare her with others because I am not knowledgeable about it and I don't feel i could be because unless someone is playing a guitar or piano really badly i can't tell the difference bewtween a good player and a superb one. I know what pleases my ear tho. My partner really loves Opera and piano music. He CAN tell the difference between good and really good and bad. Yet what he calls bad sounds good to me! But then I cannot listen to Opera it grates on my nerves. I have heard Kiri Te Kanawa doing songs other than opera and I like her voice. He does not-thinks it is coarse! BUT john does not think i am a neanderthal because of this. that paragraph you wrote does indeed imply a snobbishness on your part regarding art and others attitude to it. personally, I don't like my attitude of 'it's nice' being belittled and thought of as taking away from you passion or the art in question. John is passionate about his music. I have just thought of something that MIGHT apply in my life: I keep and raise show dogs and cats. Perhaps i could show you one Persian and then another. One would be excellent and the other not. I would not expect you to know the difference(assuming you know nothing about the finer deatils). The same with one of my Lhasa's. in fact, as often happens, people will think the poor example is lovely. I DO NOT feel as a result that they are 'reducing' this particular art. Frequently i see Lhasa Apso outside, owne by others as pure pets, that the owners think of as good examples and tell me waht wonderful pedigrees they. whereas what i see is a dreadful example that wouldn't have a part to play in my scheme of things at all. Yet i would never say that to the owner. On the other hand I have friends with dogs(or cats) that win well at shows. I personally do not like them, they don't fill my eye and I could tell you waht is at fault in them(as I could in mine). BUT I accept that we all have differing opinions and interpretations, so i don't say anything and I certainly do not look down upon these people I don't know if I have explained myself very well at all. I guess that although i think i can undertsand that you are passionate and knowledgeable about art, to say that my thinking something is nice is reducing 'art' is why i think of some people as art snobs. That statement is a snobbish statement and is belittling of my taste or ability to express myself. I really don't see it is necessary for my to go beyond saying I really like something. Okay, in dogs/cats I could and would;not only would I say somethings is nice but I would go further and 'lovely eye', great movement, fantastic tail set', 'superb shoulders' or what have you. Just because someone can't do that would not detract anything from me or the 'art' at all. bw colin > > > DS - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:50:15 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Return (NJC) A big "hello again" to everyone on the list.......I've had a good, long break from the net, got a few things in order, and am once again now and here among you all. I'm not sure I have that much to say about Joni at the moment (other than I have seen the wonderful "Painting With Words & Music" concert video), but I wanted to re-sub because I've always enjoyed the quality of discussion on here in writing terms. No other list I've known can talk it quite like JONI can :-) I see there have been some "tweakings" to the overall format of the list....guess the whole NJC debate must have needed a solution! Good to be back, Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 07:16:19 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Mingus Vinyl Gatefold? Yes. Lori wonders ... >________________________________________________________________________ >Trying to settle a mystery here--one recollection has that Mingus is >not a gatefold; another recollection is that it is. Concensus, please? > >Anybody know what a white label promo of Mingus is worth? > >Lori >San Antonio >________________________________________________________________________ it's a gatefold, with an extra page and a painting that *wasn't* included in the first CD editions. it's now been restored to the booklet accompanying the recent HDCD re-issue. (WLP) white label promo? $10-15 for a domestic US copy ($20 tops!). more for a Japanese LP. i've seen these sell for up to $40. - ------- simon - ------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 07:42:56 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: Re: JoNi & eBaY >Excuse me, but how does this validate the >original posting on the subject? Simple. Jim made a post. Simon then warned people about the item, possibly saving many listers from throwing away there money on this item either now, or in he future. We would never have known about this item if it were not for Jim's post. >To me, it sys that if Jim knew what he >was posting about, he would not have >bothered to say anything. True, but he might not have been sure of the item, so he put it up for discussion. He was not telling anyone to bid the item, was he? Just mentioning it, I thought. Just as I'm not telling anyone to bid, just providing a service for those who might be unaware of ebay, or don't have time to check it, or forgot to check it, or might just be interested in an associated graphic attached to an item, or don't have web access but know someone who does, or just providing on-topic discussion fodder. I'm sure others could come up with more valid reasons for such alerts. >Instead, he may have suckered someone >into bidding on something that was a >waste of money, He was not suckering anyone. It is up to the bidder to be smart and check things out before bidding. And what better place to learn about this, or any other Joni item, but here among the experts? >especially if we did not have a resource >like Simon to pull the wool away from >everyone's eyes. But we DID in this case, thanks to Jim's post, learn about the item in question, and thanks to simon, we saved our $ while learning something Joni related. >       In other words, what I'm saying is >that unless you are personally familiar >with the item, its quality and its real value, >you are only doing a disservice to the >members of this list by notifying them of >the item's availability in the auction. Wrong again, oh negative one. By alerting the list to the items, said items can be discussed and learned about prior to bidding, as has just happened.   >On the other hand, if you know the item is >real quality and a real bargain, you're >probably stupid to let other people know >about it who might outbid you for it. True enough, if you are bidding. I am not bidding on anything, so this does not apply to me.      >So if the two above statements are true, They are not both true. >where does that leave anyone who might >want to follow Jim's example? Free to post as they please, and on topic I might add. gdave - ----------------------------------------------------------------- DaveBase @ www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 07:25:56 -0400 From: Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: You Are Your Car/"Art snobs" NJC Heather adjusts her shawl and writes: <<(also I became a Grandmother yesterday. My granddaughter was 4 weeks early and is doing just fine)>> Congrats Heather! You know your assignment - put a tape or CD player under the baby's crib while she sleeps so she can become a Joni fan by osmosis! :~D Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 04:50:06 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: The Boho Dance philip quoth: "I don't know what a swim in the ocean means, I just know I like it." *S* I like that! the fact is that I really don't think ol' Chuck would have really fit the bill even if he *were* around to be written about! in his 'drip dry and paisley' and beatle haircut and boots, he was very much just wearing a uniform that went with the job. oh, he was a fairly decent musician but, had the grass looked greener, I'm sure he could have just as easily been a mellow rocker or even a big bander... ie: he was a singer and a guitar player and basically just a working musician. I never really sensed a vested involvement with folk music or bohemian lifestyle, as was very evident in some, and I'm sure, prior to meeting Joni when he used to duo with Loring James around the Detroit area, with his show tunes and ballads, he was probably more 'vested' in the women he could swoon than in any lifestyle or politics. I mean, don't get me wrong, Chuck was a really nice guy... just not all that 'deep' by boho standards... wqhich is to say, in the context of this thread, not the hypocrite he's being pegged as. pat NP: Cod'ine - Buffy St. Marie Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 08:23:29 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: "Art snobs" NJC > I said: > > But from the other side, it's kind of insulting to the people who do > > learn and know about art (and feel passionately about it) to have it all > > reduced to an "it's nice" or "I know what I like" as though it's all as > > simple and meaningful as coloring books and takes about as much effort > > to understand. That's just not the case. > >and catman responded: > > And it is this kind of statement about art and people such as myself that gives rise to > the feeling about art snobs! It is belittling even tho I am sure you don't intend it to > be. Hmmm... no I don't mean it to be. It's not the saying it's nice that I'm objecting to, but the insistence that discussions of art be limited to that, and if anyone takes it further, then they're labeled an art snob. > I guess I might compare this with joni and her music-I really enjoy her > music(mostly) but i cannot discuss how she comes by it, how she plays it, or compare > her with others because I am not knowledgeable about it... Neither could I, but just because someone CAN does not make me think of him or her as a "music snob." And it doesn't keep me from liking or disliking what I hear (even if I can't explain the reasons why). When people on the list do talk about these things, I really enjoy it, even though my mind boggles trying to understand all that chord stuff. And when those discussions are happening, I just do a lot of reading and try to learn what I can. > BUT john does not think i am a neanderthal because of this. Good grief, Colin, neither do I. > that paragraph you wrote does indeed imply a snobbishness on your part regarding art and others attitude to it. > personally, I don't like my attitude of 'it's nice' being belittled and thought of as > taking away from you passion or the art in question. No, it doesn't take away from the art or what I might feel about it. It just seems that rather than complain about people who know some things, why not appreciate what they have to offer. > ... One would be > excellent and the other not. I would not expect you to know the difference(assuming you > know nothing about the finer deatils). > ...On the other hand I have friends with dogs(or cats) > that win well at shows. I personally do not like them, they don't fill my eye and I > could tell you waht is at fault in them(as I could in mine). And I think I would find that fascinating. Or should I just give you my opinion and not pay any attention to what you have to say about something you're obviously expert in. What kind of conversation is that? Not a very interesting one, in my opinion. BUT I accept that we all > have differing opinions and interpretations, so i don't say anything and I certainly do > not look down upon these people Did I say I look down on them? I think it's more that I don't understand why people are so easily feel offended and feel left out when some people do go beyond the what's nice comments about art. > ...to say that > my thinking something is nice is reducing 'art' is why i think of some people as art > snobs. That statement is a snobbish statement and is belittling of my taste or ability > to express myself. I really don't see it is necessary for my to go beyond saying I > really like something. The problem with depending on the what's nice in considering art is that it usually throws away a lot, basically anything new, or challenging, or ugly, or controversial, or experimental. In general, what's nice is usually what people have seen the most, and so are most comfortable with. And sure, of course, expressing what you like is fine if that's all you want to do. But don't then expect people that, for whatever reasons, want to take the discussion further to be interested for very long in what you have to say if that's all you're willing to learn about it. And when they lose interest in what you have to say, don't call them art snobs. Okay, in dogs/cats I could and would;not only would I say > somethings is nice but I would go further and 'lovely eye', great movement, fantastic > tail set', 'superb shoulders' or what have you. And again, I think I'd find that fascinating, because I don't have a clue about any of that. So if you talk about it, and I'm not able to do much but listen and ask questions (unless I choose later to learn more about that subject), then are you a dog/cat breeder snob? And if you're having a conversation about the subject with someone who also knows a lot about it, should I insist that the conversation swirl around my "I like that one" comment, and if it doesn't, then be offended? That wouldn't make much sense would it? And yet when the subject is art, doing that seems to be OK. DS ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 08:26:28 -0400 From: Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: "Art snobs" NJC Deb wrote: <> Maybe the bridge here is what I experienced a while ago while visiting the Art Museum in Chicago. In my ignorance I wandered from hall to hall, taking notes on what I thought was interesting, and it seemed that all my favorite pieces were by Miro. Not knowing anything about him, I bought a book in the Museum book store and learned more. Now I don't intend to jump in to this discussion about art (in college I had the classic poker-playing dogs on the wall), but I think there's nothing inferior about enjoying art for art's sake, by the same token it's nice to let that "liking" lead to a little personal growth and learning. Didn't someone once say "life is for learning"?..... Bob, who still enjoys a good coloring book now & then... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:14:09 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: The Posall and the Mosalm Patrick Mead wrote: > As an object > that was pressed in tiny quantities a quarter of a century ago, no > "bootlegger" will profit from it as it changes hands now, it is just > another used record being bought and sold with no profit or loss to anyone > but the two parties involved in the sale. Not completely true. Especially if it is rare, it may show up in the future as another illegal bootleg from another source. It happens all the time. And if Joni were to ever want to release any of her early live work in the future, these boots WILL affect the value of her work. Case in point, a boot exists of an early Barbara Streisand live show from her days in the Village. The tapes were made by a "friend" with whom she had a falling out. Her lawyers have steadfastly gone after anyone who sells or tries to "reboot" the recording because it very greatly affected the value of her fabulous box set For the Record. For her fans and consumers this contains far superior early live recordings. And this is only one example. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:41:05 +0100 From: Krys & Geoff Subject: Re: Win video cds of Joni, Joan and other greats! In message , JRMCo1@aol.com writes >Krys XXX writes: > > > I thought that Tom Paxton, another of my favourites, appeared at IoW in > 1970. Can you confirm this?> > >I can't confirm or deny Tom Paxson's performance there, Ms Krys. The booklet >does mention that the video is culled from over sixty hours of footage, and >says that some performers who appeared didn't agree to be filmed. Such >lumunaries as James Taylor, Sly and the Family Stone, Supertramp and Neil >Young apparently were there but didn't make the video. (Neil and Joni came >to the venue together in a rented Rolls Royce, according to the notes.) >Paxson's not featured on these videos either, unfortunately. Thanks for the info! Tom's a lovely friendly guy (he still pays regular visits to the UK luckily) and I can't see him not wishing to be filmed. Maybe I got my facts wrong about him being there. > There's plenty >of backstage footage though, so you might be able to spot him. Well worth a look then - will this video be available on the PAL system does anyone know? Love and peace, Krys XX ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:01:14 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: "Art snobs" NJC Hi Debra-I think we might be discussing two different things. Of course i do not class people as art snobs because they know more than i about art. Onl;y if the deride my opinion on something just because I can only tell you what appeals to me. I do understand that 'nice' doesn't really cover it. I wouldn't describe The Scream as 'nice' nor most of Dali's paintings that I have seen nor even the Joni self portrait Van Goh pastiche. howver, I do 'like' them. My taste in art also goes beyond a pretty picture! However, what i was objecting to was the idea that my thinking a piece of art is 'nice' reduces that art and people such as yourself who are 'experts'. That sounds to me like I am being belittled for my inabilty to enthuse and describe like an art expert therefore I cannot really appreciate art which is nonsense. Like with the Joni chord stuff. meaningless more or less to me. And yes i would describe someone as a Joni snob if they thought of me as less of a fan because I don't understand these things. I do not automatically think people are snobs just becuase they are more educated than I. Only if they see me as less than they because of it. My John is highly educated, went to a fee paying school as a child, went on to Oxford has two degrees and is soon be be a Doctor. My official education stopped at 15. Obviously I do not live with and love a man for 18 years I consider to be a snob. Likewise I can talk about things to him, like genetics, that puzzles him! But on that I am no expert-I only understand the principles of colour inheritence in cats very well and a little about the same in my breed of dog.(and the inheritence of certain eye diseases in dogs and polycystic kidney disease in cats) In the dog coluir inheritence is complicated, at least in Lhasas, whereas the cat colour coding is the same no matter what breed or non breed. Another example of what i mean: We have two close friends. Judy, a house person and Lizanne an md. Both come from very lofty familes. Judy is a relation of Virginia Wolf and Lizanne holds parties and attends parties where the likes of Prince Charles are to be found. I made both of these friends myself. They are lovely women and their 'class' never comes into our relationship in they do not look down upon me and I don't look up to them. yet friends of these two have found this 'common' man amusing and my 'ignorance' charming. Needless to say Judy and Lizanne tell these people to fuck off when they catch them at it. Actually it is highly amusing to listen to a woman say fuck when she speaks like the Queen! Anyway, I hope I have given the picture I intend! It is not the knowledge these people have that is irksome but the condescending attitude some have. and, btw, if you knew who Brian Sewell(pronounced sue-ull) I think you would agree he is outrageous in his snobbishness. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:21:01 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Joni lith on eBay Hey everyone, As Kakki mentioned a while back, one of Joni's liths, entitled "The Road To Uncle Lyles" was up on eBay, starting at $4900. It's now down to $900. Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net http://home.revealed.net/Harpua http://jmdl.com/guitar/mark "This conformity factory is now closed!" -Homer Simpson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:16:00 -0700 From: Patrick Mead Subject: Re: The Posall and the Mosalm At 09:14 AM 6/23/99 -0400, Jerry wrote: >Patrick Mead wrote: > >> As an object >> that was pressed in tiny quantities a quarter of a century ago, no >> "bootlegger" will profit from it as it changes hands now, it is just >> another used record being bought and sold with no profit or loss to anyone >> but the two parties involved in the sale. > >Not completely true. Especially if it is rare, it may show up in the future as >another illegal bootleg from another source. It happens all the time. And if >Joni were to ever want to release any of her early live work in the future, >these boots WILL affect the value of her work. Case in point, a boot exists of >an early Barbara Streisand live show from her days in the Village. The tapes >were made by a "friend" with whom she had a falling out. Her lawyers have >steadfastly gone after anyone who sells or tries to "reboot" the recording >because it very greatly affected the value of her fabulous box set For the >Record. For her fans and consumers this contains far superior early live >recordings. And this is only one example. > >Jerry Not to prolong this tedious thread, but this just is NOT a realistic concern with "The Posall and the Mosalm." The material it contains is very common and has been traded and bootlegged for many years. simon correctly pointed out that in fact this list has circulated a more complete and better sounding set of the same recordings. Someone did choose to re-bootleg this material recently, it appeared as a double CD called The Second Fret Sets. Not surprisingly, they used superior versions of the source tapes, not a scratchy old piece of vinyl like "Posall." And in the happy event that Joni chooses someday to release a retrospective of early live work, I doubt very seriously that a single fan will decide not to buy it because they have "The Posall And The Mosalm" in their collection. The sale of this old record will not cause cancer or threaten the republic. /Pat mailto:pmead@pacbell.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:32:09 -0400 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: You Are Your Car/"Art snobs" NJC At 07:25 AM 6/23/99 -0400, you wrote: >Congrats Heather! You know your assignment - put a tape or CD player under the >baby's crib while she sleeps so she can become a Joni fan by osmosis! :~D > Oh absolutely!! She's going to have blond hair and blue eyes. Guess who is going to get her guitar lessons ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:33:09 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: The Boho Dance *wondering if anyone else noticed the similarities...* Joni: "....thats a boho dance. The poor artist is always contemptuous of the rich artist and there are a lot of good things to poke at, ya know... and it does corrupt some people. It depends on what you were motivated [by]... but Ive been poor and Ive been middle class, ya know..and Ive been very wealthy....none of those...you can be happy or unhappy in any financial situation." apostle Paul: "I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do everything through him who gives me strength." (Phil. 4:12.13) pat NP: Love - from WTRF http://members.wbs.net/homepages/b/a/d/badwolff/badwolff.html Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:37:22 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: JoNi & eBaY In a message dated 6/23/1999 7:44:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kb420@webtv.net writes: << But we DID in this case, thanks to Jim's post, learn about the item in question, and thanks to simon, we saved our $ while learning something Joni related. >> We saved money this time but with 600 people on the list I know I won't be albe to afford the eBay prices anymore for I don't want to bid against friends from the list. Songbooks are already going for outrageous prices now with the entire list in on anything from eBay a songbooks selling for 50.00 could now easliy go for 150.00 plus. If we could come up wiht a system to give listers who bid first courtesy, then it would be fine with me. Yes, I have seen auctions go to astronomical prices that I could never ever afford. I am not selfish just poor! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:46:06 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: what's the joke? (Re: She went by Liki Peters... a girl named Mary Chris Moss...) colin wrote: >>I don't get why this funny. Am I missing something?>> colin is the only guy I know who laughs three times at every joke... once when he hears it... once when it's explained to him... and once when he get's it! *L* pat *ducking* Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:47:50 -0400 From: "Reuben Bell3" Subject: Lyrics quiz I spent a lot of time racking my brain on this little quiz...and now I cant' remember who to send it to. Can anyone help? Reuben np: Joan Armatrading - Greatest Hits (The Weakness In Me) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:55:33 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Hissing: Worst Album? Joniphiles - Can anyone put this question to rest for me? Did Rolling Stone call Hissing the "worst album of the year" or the "worst album title of the year"? I've searched a number of articles on the website and, on at least three occasions, Joni does not deny or clarify when asked about her "worst album of the year" award. Does anyone have a copy of the actual article from Rolling Stone? Thanks, Les ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:01:02 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: blue fans From: andrew power Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 08:01:44 PDT Kim Beretta > << are there any other blue fans out there? >> yo! c'est moi as i rambled a couple of digests ago blue is my fave from joni's sonic palette (tasteless metaphor, granted) altho' other joni albums ('summer lawns and court'n'spark) have direct associations with a phase in my life - blue is more of a pedal note - its more permanent i'd be interested to know what was on in her life then - outside of the album's autobiography - are there any interviews/biogs on this period? other gafla that interestes me is - what was joni's take on punk and disco at the time? especially as punk hated everything joni appeared to represent - - the sex pistols had a fight with a band simply because their guitarist said he liked her drw ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:00:24 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: atrociuos joni covers From: andrew power Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 07:53:57 PDT >>I wonder what is the worst cover of a Joni song ever? My candidate has to >>be Nazareth's destruction of 'This Flight tonight'. If there are a lot of suggestions, perhaps tape tree 11 could be the tree from hell! :-) Is this a topic worthy of discussion?>> i'll tell you - ian mcshane's abomination of 'both side now' - which he actually had the gall/ignorance to name his album of shoddy covers sung all the same way - i.e. in the manner of someone with a half-octave range trying to remember the lyrics as he went along this feller's a two bit character actor in on brit tv, and he's meant to be a housewives' favourite - which probably accounts for his 'uncle sleeping over on the couch' demeanor (closet rage rage!) drw ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:00:38 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: apology my apologiies to the list for not labeling NJC on my last post... sorry. pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:10:17 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: ...in a name (NJC) terry wrote: >>the Kane family: Sugar, Candy, and I've forgotten the 3rd sister's name. They were really sweet though. Har har har>> guess I have to throw this in: my first great love, aside from my huge crush on Joni, in the Cellar days had the last name of Barr... and OF COURSE she had a sister named Candy! pat NP: my mac's cooling fan... Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:28:02 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: "Art snobs" NJC In a message dated 6/23/99 6:24:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: > And it is this kind of statement about art and people such as myself that > gives rise to > the feeling about art snobs! It is belittling even tho I am sure you don't > intend it to > be.I guess I might compare this with joni and her music-I really enjoy her > music(mostly) but i cannot discuss how she comes by it, how she plays it, or > compare > her with others because I am not knowledgeable about it and I don't feel i > could be > because unless someone is playing a guitar or piano really badly But Colin, I am a musical dunce also and I don't find it belittling when people discuss the technical aspects of Joni's music! I find it enlightening and educational. I've actually learned a great deal. I feel similarly about the art thread. I love art. I'm intuitively drawn to it and I'm one of those people who says "I know what I like". I have seen, both in books and in galleries, the work of most of the artists discussed in the recent thread, but I'm not knowledgeable enough and I refrain from serious discussions because basically I don't know what I'm talking about at Debra and Terry and Kakki's level (sorry if I've left anyone out). But I've so enjoyed the discourse and I thank all involved for the tiny bit of extra insight I gained while recently looking through a book on abstract expressionism. I think Diebenkorn is wonderful, by the way! Take care, Gina NP: Harlem In Havana on the tape tree ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 19:20:24 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: "Art snobs" NJC > > > But Colin, I am a musical dunce also and I don't find it belittling when > people discuss the technical aspects of Joni's music! And niether do I. That is not what i wrote. I am not going to go thru all that agian. i can't help it if people read something other than what i wrote. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 15:03:07 EDT From: SMEBD@aol.com Subject: Re: Hissing: Worst Album? I believe that Rolling Stone said that HOSL was the worst album cover (art work/packaging) of the year. Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 15:08:27 EDT From: DreamZvil@aol.com Subject: Vinyl For Sale! Hello everybody, and Happy Wednesday! Just wanted to let you know that I have a sale list available of about 2/3'rds of my vinyl collection (about 3,000 LPs and 2,000 45s from the '50's on) - if you want a copy, just send a private e-mail telling me so! I will send it back as an e-mail attachment. We are having to "partially liquidate" because we are trying to save up a down payment for the house we're living in - we love it so much, we don't ever wanna leave! Thanks for letting me throw this out there on the list. Have a musical day! :) Keep the faith, Susan of Dreamzville ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:49:38 -0400 From: Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: blue fans Drew asks: <> I'm only speaking from assumption, but ya' gotta figure if she mentions whiny white kids NOW, suffice to say that she also thought that "formula music" boring...the old man is snoring... No wonder she went WAY out in left field at the end of the seventies! But speaking for myself, I think "Never Mind The Bollocks" rocks, and I mean it, man!! Bob NPIMH: Sex Pistols, "God Save The Queen" ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #274 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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