From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #271 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, June 22 1999 Volume 04 : Number 271 The Laborday JoniFest is happening this fall! For information: send a message to Join the mailing list at: ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: joni and joan [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Joan Baez, Pop Culture, etc. (NJC) ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: EBay & Joni ["Kakki" ] Joni in Billboard-again [Randy Remote ] You Are Your Car ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: jones & joan (very little JC) [Bounced Message ] Re: The Joni v. Joan Debate, by Joni ["Patricia O'Connor" I seem to have offended some of you with my rather firey talk re:joni and > joan and pop culture and those who sing other peoples songs...SORRY. Ange, Speaking strictly for me (Isn't that a line from a Joan Baez song? ) , I didn't think your thoughts were at all offensive (and I don't think anyone else did either). In fact, I want to thank you for beginning what has turned out, IMO, to be an interesting and though-provoking thread. Hopefully it wasn't achieved at the expense of your feelings too awful much. I don't think it was meant to at all. Take care, Gina NP: Neil Young - Zuma - Cortez The Killer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 12:26:44 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Joan Baez, Pop Culture, etc. (NJC) Evian, sunburned and tired, wrote >Why were these acts/people/things so popular? >How did they get popular and who had the power >to allow/foster their popularity? One theory I've heard about the "teeny-bopper" idols becoming so popular ie. Back Street Boys, New Kids On The Block, Billie, Spice Girls (which I think sounds reasonable), goes as follows (hopefully I can explain this coherently!): These kinds of groups/performers appeal to a specific age-group of pre/adolescent teenagers, who are just "coming into" their sexuality. Rather than confront the issue head-on, ie. with direct physical contact with the object of their desire, they transfer this emotion into their reverence (for want of a better word) of these teen idols. Thus it becomes a "safe" outlet for their emotions. How often have you seen girls, 10 - 14 years old screaming at Back Street Boys, Ricky Martin, or even Beatles concerts? It's far safer to idolise a distant figure, with no possibility of a "real" physical relationship. Hopefully that makes sense! Helen - my 2c worth ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 12:41:09 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! >In a message dated 6/21/99 12:32:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >guitarzan@saber.net writes: > ><< If anyone could claim to have popularised Woodstock it's Ian Matthews > > who gave Joni her only number one hit with the tune. >> > > > > Where was this? It certainly is NOT true in the U.S., where the CSN version > > is the one that got the most airplay. > > I don't know if Matthew's version reached #1 in the US, but it > did get substantial airplay on the pre-FM airwaves. > RR >> > >Not only can I safely say that Ian Matthews' version did NOT reach #1 in the >U.S., I'm not sure his version even REACHED the U.S. at all. Who is he? Never >heard of him. > >Paul I Ian Matthews band was actually called Matthews' Southern Comfort. He was previously in Fairport Convention. MSC were a UK band and "Their version of Woodstock was a soft country interpretation of Joni Mitchell's song and reached No. 1 in the UK, and the Top 20 in the US" - from The Illustrated New Musical Express Encyclopaedia of Rock - I can't vouch for it's accuracy, but I know the Matthews' Southern Comfort version of Woodstock was the first one I ever heard in NZ! Helen - in NZ (funnily enough!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 20:57:48 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: Dr.Pepper - Or How I Stopped Worrying and Learned To Love Ebay (NJC) Just a quick thanks to whoever dropped the bomb on Dr.Pepper. All his "tape" auctions have been cancelled. gdave - ----------------------------------------------------------------- DaveBase @ www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:04:14 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Joni vs. Joan and the Singer/Songwriter debate - quite long I'm afraid (surprise, surprise!) It's been interesting reading all the opinions about Joan Baez vs. our Joni, but personally I would probably never even speak of them in the same sentence. To me (important clarification - this is just MY opinion!) Joan Baez is a true champion of causes, with a specific purpose behind her music, whether to inspire, ignite or whatever - and her style is pure folk. I enjoy her voice at times - too much and I get annoyed with the vibrato, but I have a "greatest hits" album that gets played from time to time. I absolutely love her "spoof" of Dylan's voice on Simple Twist of Fate - superb. And not all her songs are politically directed - some are obviously sung out of pure enjoyment of the song. But Joni! Where do I start?! She may have been "bracketed" as a folk singer when she started. Let's face it, if you were a female singing solo with an acoustic guitar in the mid to late sixties, what else would you be categorised as? But her music and poetry are far too involved and complex to ever be confined to one style. That's one thing I love about Joni - her ability to use whatever musical style takes her fancy, or suits the mood of the song she wants to create, and to do it exceptionally well. Whether it's folk, jazz, pop, etc. I've orated at length in the past about the singer/songwriter issue - whether an artist performs their own or other's work. I'd like to clarify my position on this, specially to Ashara who got a little offended by a couple of people's opinions. I have no problem whatsoever hearing an artist perform someone else's song. It's when you get groups or performers like Michael Bolton (sorry, I can't stand this guy!) or several of the rap groups around at the moment singing previous No. 1 songs, in order to make money, and you never hear them perform anything unfamiliar. These songs are already proven as hits - of course they're going to make more money, it stands to reason! But artists like Bonnie Raitt for example, who doesn't write many of her own songs, will take other people's songs (who don't, or can't perform), and give them a voice. I guess you could put opera singers in the same category. Basically, my point is, if you release a single (another important distinction, as opposed to a non-single on an album) that was No. 1 for 10 weeks 10 years ago, don't be surprised if I don't give you the time of day! Ashara, I accidentally deleted your post on this subject, but I did read it and from what I can remember, it sounds like I'd love what you're doing! You're giving a voice to little-known songs! Sorry, I seem to be repeating myself on this list, on this subject, but people will keep bringing it up! Helen - waiting for the flames.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 21:32:11 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: th Right joan gets the credit (due her) NJC In a message dated 99-06-21 20:49:42 EDT, ATAKATS@ninenet.com.au writes: >This list is an amazing source of information....thanks It sure is! And so much of it is due to Simon. I've been the lucky recipiant of his outstanding knowledge in the field of all things Joni and non-Joni. I enjoyed reading the posts on the Great Joan/Joni Debate and have been spinning Diamonds and Rust ad nasuseum for the past two days because of it. Thanks to all! MG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 21:41:35 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Joan Baez, Pop Culture, etc. (NJC) In a message dated 99-06-21 21:16:26 EDT, hell@ihug.co.nz writes: > How often have you seen girls, 10 - 14 >years old screaming at Back Street Boys, Ricky Martin, or even Beatles >concerts? It's far safer to idolise a distant figure, with no possibility >of a "real" physical relationship. Absolutely! I can remember my heavy sighs for Davey Jones et al. My oldest daughter screamed at the New Kids On The Block, (sorry Signe!), and my middle daughter is heavily into Spice Girls and just starting to get an interest in guys like 'N Sync. It helps as a way to start the process of growing up and having a sexual interest in other kids. Starts a kid down the path of what they like in a partner, what they won't. For years I was a suck for short guys with British accents! Having contrbuted that wee paragraph, I can now say that I loved Evian's post about pop culture! It (and all of the replies), were wonderfully thought provoking. MG nl, (now living), Springsteen's "No Surrender" "I can hear my mother's voice calling me home, across the open yard..." (to shamelessly paraphase) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 21:49:13 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni vs. Joan and the Singer/Songwriter debate - quite long I'm afraid (s... In a message dated 99-06-21 21:32:25 EDT, hell@ihug.co.nz writes: >Helen - waiting for the flames.... > > I don't think that there shoudl be flames, at all! Your post was very well written and I enjoyed it a lot! The part about not thinking of them in the same sentence rings very true for me. I think that comparing the Joans is like comparing apples to oranges! MG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:07:39 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: Re: EBay & Joni James, Please do not let the self-appointed list police stop you. Your post was ON TOPIC and appreciated by more than you realize. Keep 'em coming. I used to do a daily posting of Ebay alerts on-list, and after a few initial negative reactions, I was overwhelmed by positive ones from those who appreciate the alerts. Even the list owner defended my posts. I stopped because I found I no longer had the time, but lately I have more time so perhaps I'll start them up again. All together now...Thanks Paul! Instead of daily though, I think I'll post them once weekly, say on Tuesdays, and then the digesters will get a fair shake at these auctions as well. Paul, >Now, no one is telling Jim or anyone else >not to post such announcements, Thank goodness. >but it seems to me the consensus >is that if you see something interesting of >Joni on e-bay or other auction sites, BUY >it or ignore it.    Well, if my mail was any indication you are very wrong about the "consensus". >I, and certainly some other list members, >are skeptical of the motives of those who >would make such announcements Yes, we should all be skeptical about the motives of those who are posting ON TOPIC and being nice enough to alert JONI FANS about JONI ITEMS up for bid. Puhleeeeeeeze. Some people appreciate the fact that an auction, by its very nature, means people bid against one another. Glory be! >and we find those who use this list for >their own commercial or profit-making >motives to be repugnant. Entirely different subject, one with which I happen to agree. gdave - ----------------------------------------------------------------- DaveBase @ www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 19:21:21 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: the Right Joan gets the credit (NJC) simon@icu.com wrote: > Joan Baez was an early champion and $$$ supporter of the Civil Rights > movement of the early 60's. she was also a close friend of Dr. King > and his family. > whenever the *call* went out, whenever there was a march, a movement, > or a campaign ... Right up to the present. In my neighborhood of Northern California a courageous young woman named Julia Butterfly (see the new Rolling Stone) climbed into an ancient redwood to save it from being destroyed. A year and a half later, she is still there, through the torrential rains of El Nino, and a snowy winter last season. Recently Joan Baez and Bonnie Raitt made the grueling (believe me, I'm in good shape and it wiped me out) hike up to Julia's tree to wish her well and give her support. The fact that these musicians in their 50's would do that is a testiment to their commitment. Raitt, along with Mickey Hart and Bob Weir have also been in the area before to do benefits for Julia's cause. Redwoods are the largest living things. Some of them live to be 2000 years old. Less than 5% of the original redwoods still stand, since we began cutting them less than 150 years ago. RR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 19:45:46 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: EBay & Joni Dave, I think a number of us are very grateful (gr8ful) that you alerted us to eBay awhile back. (Just wish we would have all invested in some of the stock at the time, too, we'd be very rich now ;-) I've been able to find Joni and other stuff that was nearly impossible to find in the past. There *is* some downside in us bidding against each other and driving the price up. I wish we could form some kind of "cooperative" to manage this better. I know some on the list have worked together to "take turns" at their shot at the certain same items that come up regularly for sale and that has helped to keep the prices down at times. When I first started bidding on Joni items, I did not realize I was bidding against other listers because their names on eBay are usually different than on the list. Once I figured out who is who, I tended to back off (unless it is a hot item that a number of listers are bidding on - then I don't feel too bad about getting in the fray). There is also always the option of buying directly from the GEMM website, which has many of the same items at a lower, fixed price. Paul wrote: >and we find those who use this list for >their own commercial or profit-making >motives to be repugnant. I'm really sorry Paul and some others may feel that way about the music plugs. I personally really like hearing about artists who may be long forgotten, like Laura Allen and Pamela Polland, and appreciate the information as to where to obtain their albums. How else would most of us have known about some of these indie releases if not for Peter? It should also be noted that Peter almost always is plugging artists who are connected with, or contemporaries of, Joni from the past. The only thing I find "annoying" about the posts is that I can't keep up with ordering all this great stuff ;-) Kakki - ----------------------------------------------------------------- DaveBase @ www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 20:02:23 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Joni in Billboard-again This is from an article in the May 29, 1999 Billboard about VH-1's upcoming presentation "The 100 Greatest Women of Rock'N'Roll", scheduled to air July 26-Aug.1. Joni is in the top twenty-they won't give the actual ranking. Liz Phair said "I think there's a lot more diversity in female artists than there was 10 years ago. What's changed since, say, the days when Joni Mitchell first started, is that I think people are more interested in women as songwriters. Female performers are being taked more seriously." Chaka Khan said: I think women have definitely made progress since when I started in the business. Joni Mitchell was certainly a pioneer in many ways. I think the progress has been made with women being able to make music independently and maintaining a lot of freedom of expression in their art." Also this item, which I think has already appeared in the jmdl. STANDARD ISSUE: Joni Mitchell is working on an album of standards with an orchestra. "I got hooked," she says, "when I performed with the El Nino Orchestra [at a 1998 benefit organized by Don Henley]. An arranger is working on the material now. I'm just going to come in to the studio and sing the songs like Frank." Among the songs she's recording are Billie Holiday's "Comes Love" and "You've Changed," as well as "Answer Me My Love" and "Stormy Weather." Mitchell, a past winner of Billboard's Century Award, notes that she's also singing a few standards she wrote, including "Both Sides Now." "The album starts with how nice love is and then goes into the pits,"she adds with a laugh. The project is being produced by her ex-husband, Larry Klein. RR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 00:29:32 -0400 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: You Are Your Car Driving all weekend thru the mountains of Pennsylvania & West Virginia in my beat up '80 Dodge Aspen (without a radio), experiencing judgmental looks from BMW drivers I passed & cops I slowed down for, a Joniesque song began playing in my brain: You Are Your Car. Sort of a combination of Otis & Marlena & Shiny Toys with a little Dreamland thrown in, I was unable to articulate the utter superficiality of a culture that equates sexuality & social status with what vehicle one drives. On my hejira I contemplated Joni doing an album of cover songs, thinking back to the last time she did that with Mingus, & got a little concerned for her career! Will the pop purists & jazz snobs treat her the same way this time around? Then it occurred to me that Joni will definately incorporate an original song & plenty of cutting-edge artwork into this project. If you're out there, Joni, please consider You Are Your Car for a song or, better yet, a painting.... When I returned home to 3 affection-starved cats & 86 emails I noticed a tiny jmdl thread on Joni's recent "lazy" guitar work while scrolling & deleting like mad. How could I possibly NOT respond to this completely uninformed statement? I find that most people are stuck musically in one era or style - usually what was playing in high school or college. & I find this quite pathetic! Our ability to appreciate innovation & new creations is what keeps us young. I mean, just contemplate what your grandparents & parents said about Sinatra, Elvis & The Beatles. That's what made them OLD! What I find so refreshing about Taming The Tiger & Painting With Words & Music is Joni's stripped-down renditions of her complex chords & rhythms (they complain when it's too hot & they complain when it's too cool). Well fuck 'em! You're sounding better than ever, Joni, & if it's because you had polio as a child, or you just like the new stripped-down sound of the VG-8, MORE POWER TO YOU! I love the deep subdued mood of TTT & PWW&M!!! Last night I watched The Pirates Of Silicon Valley on TNT & wonder what the art snobs think about Steve Jobs quoting Picasso, & Bill Gates quoting Van Gogh, as saying: "A good artist copies but a great artist steals"? E.T. NP: The Rest Of Joni Mitchell.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 23:26:21 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: jones & joan (very little JC) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 23:08:45 -0400 From: BarBearUh i've been reading the bridget jones thread, as fielding has been interviewed for a documentary i'm editing for TLC [and i recently read the book and found it hilarious]. it may interest some of you that the book's plot and the darcy character are based on jane austen's famous book, "pride & prejudice". > Azeem: > Jimmy, the word "fuckwit" is a not uncommon term of abuse meaning, as > you would imagine, a stupid person. However, I have never seen, heard or > used "fuckwittage", and suspect that it is a Helen Fielding invention. as the URL someone pointed out, it is a fielding invention. what i got about the word is that it wasn't so much stupid as it was stupid sex - playing games w/a guy that you really don't belong with. or to be more precise, a guy who wants to have sex with you but not a relationship is just giving you fuckwittage. > TerryM: > Funny- yesterday's Detroit Free Press mentions that the book is also > available on tape. fielding is also working with the director of the famous BBC version of 'pride & prejudice' on a movie version of 'bridget'. on to joan... > Kakki: > Joni is just as much activist as > Joan. Joni just does it more one on one with the listener, while Joan > tends to set the stage to rally a group of listeners. i think i know what you mean here as far as deeply connecting with the listener, but i can't agree about joan's vs. joni's activism. joan has lived activism for decades. she travels into third world countries to help one on one & to do benefit shows. she still does a lot of benefits here in the US on a regular basis. her songs are generally much more political, and her life follows suit. i give joni credit for doing as many benefits as she does, but her level of activism doesn't compare to joan's. > > Robert H: > I don't understand any attempts to characterize her as a big pop > star > - - even at the height of her fame, she was relatively marginal compared > to the Everly Brothers, the Beatles, Connie Francis, Herman's Hermits, and, > of course, Bob Dylan. And God knows who else - when she first became a > famous > singer, the charts were dominated by film musical soundtracks like West > Side Story and The Sound of Music. this has pretty much been addressed, but i'll throw in a couple of extra cents... when the charts were filled with pop music, folk was the underground - - the new wave, if you will. joan was what college students were listening to. and joan paved the way for the joni's of the world, and greatly helped dylan get some attention. she reached the height of her fame just before the british invasion, though she remained quite popular for years to come. barbara np: cassandra wilson, traveling miles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 02:34:27 -0400 From: "Patricia O'Connor" Subject: Re: The Joni v. Joan Debate, by Joni Linsay wrote; > Joan Baez showed even less empathy. "She managed, >whenever possible, to cut my set back one song when we played together," >Joni says. For what it's worth: In Baez's interesting 1987 memoir "And A Voice To Sing With", the name Joni Mitchell is conspicuously absent in the chapter about the Rolling Thunder Revue. Hmmm.. Baez mentions that she wanted to call her greatest hits album "HITS AND MISSES" but it was nixed by the record company. Hmmm...hmmm (NJC: Baez said she liked to take quaalude(s) before performing in the 70's, which made me understand her strange behavior at a concert I attended in 1976.) POC ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #271 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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