From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #270 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, June 21 1999 Volume 04 : Number 270 The Laborday JoniFest is happening this fall! For information: send a message to Join the mailing list at: ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: the wrong joan always gets the credit! ["Steve Haas" ] Re: JMDL READER'S CLUB (NJC) [Jerry Notaro ] RE: re: Patrick Stewart (NJC) [mwyarbro@zzapp.org] Re: JMDL READER'S CLUB (NJC) [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: A Go-Betweens Joni Sighting ... [Sue ] Rothenberg (NJC) [dsk ] Today in Joni History - June 17 [Today in Joni History ] Today in Joni History - June 16 [Today in Joni History ] Today in Joni History - June 14 [Today in Joni History ] Today in Joni History - June 15 [Today in Joni History ] Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: The Posall and Mosalm for sale on EBay [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Sucking the life? [simon@icu.com] Singers v. Songwriters [dsk ] evian NJC -thank you for the music [Bounced Message ] Re: The Posall and Mosalm for sale on EBay [Bounced Message ] Re: The Posall and Mosalm for sale on EBay ["James A. Murray" ] The Joni v. Joan Debate, by Joni [Lindsay Moon ] Re: Excitable find [pam tompkins ] joni and joan ["Takats, Angela" ] Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! [CaTGirl627@aol.com] the Right Joan gets the credit (due her). [simon@icu.com] Joan Baez ~ A Bio [simon@icu.com] Re: JMDL READER'S CLUB (NJC) [catman ] th Right joan gets the credit (due her) ["Takats, Angela" Subject: RE: the wrong joan always gets the credit! :43:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > steveha@email.msn.com writes: > > << I would disagree with this, too. I don't see Joni's influence on many > people. Perhaps you can show me people who she has influenced > musically. I > am just not familiar with them. >> > Let's see Prince, Indigo Girls, every single Joni wanna be singer > songwriter > (ie Jewel, Jonatha Brooke, The Neilds,etc) , Michael Hedges (by > her use of > open tunings), Rickie Lee Jones, Shawn Colvin, David Crosby (he > does a bunch > of her songs), Jimmy Page, Heart, Annie Lenox, and I am sure I > am forgetting > at least one person! Is anyone familiar with any of these no > bodies?? ;>) > Catgirl....thinking about all the interviews where Joni is asked how she > feels about all the people who she influenced.... Well, I would make a distinction between those who have simply played her pieces, and those who were definitely influenced by her style. I can't make a judgement here. I don't know most of those people....though I do not like Prince at all, and can't see any JM influences there....and David Crosby definitely had his own style, which probably had some input from Joni, considering how often they must have played together, but it is hard to see. Joni is one of the few performers who have stayed with me for most of my life. I've met her once or twice or three times (things were always hazy during the 60's), and really had a crush on her, through her music. On the other hand, I've seen her when I didn't particularly like her, such as one concert in Columbia, Maryland, where she came across very...well, sort of Vally Girl. It was distressing. However, there are things she has done which I don't like. I'm not a lover of jazz, and the more jazzy she gets, the less I like her work. I didn't like the Mingus album at all, and there were a lot of intervening albums there I didn't like. I LOVED Hejira, and Night Ride Home. The album she did after that, Turbulent Indigo, I have a hard time listening to. SO, I can't say I like her without question, but should say I like her critically...which is ok, I think. I feet he same way about almost everyone. My favorite singer is Stan Rogers (if you don't know him, find his album "From Fresh Water." If you like Joni, I think you'll be blown away)...but I don't like everything Stan did, either (the second track on that album, by the way, is one of those I don't like. Skip over it). I guess it is just me. Picky...(sigh).. The thing is, an artist HAS to grow and experiment...and very often the growth and experiments are not 'good' in the sense that they please everyone. If one has truly liked what she has done, we can't hold her to doing that all the time, but hope that, through the growth, something even better will come of it. That is the essence of creativity. If you remember when Dylan went 'electric,' his fans booed him ...and it was predicted often that he was going 'popular' and down hill. However, that, as well as his 'Christian' phases, were just part of his growth. Dylan knew this, and didn't let his 'fans' dictate his direction. When Phil Ochs tried that, his fans also booed him off the stage...and I always felt it was a strong reason why he eventually killed himself. He was stiphled (sp?), and couldn't grow. Sorry for the digression. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:29:33 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/21/99 8:12:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philipf@tinet.ie > writes: > > If anyone could claim to have popularised Woodstock it's Ian Matthews > who gave Joni her only number one hit with the tune. >> > > Where was this? It certainly is NOT true in the U.S., where the CSN version > is the one that got the most airplay. I don't know if Matthew's version reached #1 in the US, but it did get substantial airplay on the pre-FM airwaves. RR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:33:29 -0400 From: "James A. Murray" Subject: The Posall and Mosalm for sale on EBay There is a nifty Joni album on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=117747988 cheers jimbo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:35:05 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Happy Fathers Day (NJC) In a message dated 6/21/1999 1:46:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, michaelpaz@worldnet.att.net writes: << Michael P.S. Mikey asked me to play TTT today and told me that it is his favorite Joni. My god have a created/converted another one? >> My son MIchael like some Joni as well. When ever I play Big Yellow Taxi or his favorite...Night Ride Home he sings right along with me! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:52:53 -0800 From: mwyarbro@zzapp.org Subject: RE: JMDL READER'S CLUB (NJC) I for one would love to take part in a book club type online discussion with fellow JMDLers, whether it was by chat or by email submissions. The minds here are so talented and engaging that it would surely be a success. I'm not sure about the logistics of it--perhaps someone knows of a server that could support a small listserv (books@jmdl.com? ;-) ). Choose a book a month or so (available in paperback for us financially challenged folk please), maybe mixing up contemporary and classic works, and discuss by email. Could be a blast. Anyone want to organize it? ;-) [It just occurred to me that links to amazon.com (or maybe even an independent online retailer) from Wally's and Les's sites could help them make a little $ from JMDLers ordering copies of their books. It's a thought.] - --Michael, who also loves Maupin's _Maybe the Moon_ NP: Brainbug, "Nightmare" (Original Sinister Strings Mix) - ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 99 10:00:34 -0700 From: Wally Breese Subject: Lahm, Shadows, Joni's Jazz and thanks Hi everyone, Today, I'm launching a page on JM.COM that contains my conversation with musician (and fellow jmdler) David Lahm. You can find out about how his fascination with JM's music began, plus much more. My thanks to him for the interview which you can read at this address: http://www.jonimitchell.com/DavidLahmIV98.html In reference to the new Japanese video version of "Shadows And Light," CDNOW lists the release on their order page as being 60 minutes, but as I told you previously, it does now run 74 minutes. I guess that they're unaware of the added footage. You can order it through the SHOP page: http://www.jonimitchell.com/ShopPage998.html I looking for two volunteers to be my official JM.COM photographer and reporter for the "Joni's Jazz" concert in NYC on July 1st. If you're interested in filling either of these roles, please contact me ASAP. To serve as the photographer, I'd like someone with a good camera who has had some experience shooting concerts. Thanks. Ashara sent me the donations that have been coming in, and I was very moved to look through the checks and see the names of those who've been my friends for a few years, others whom I know casually, and still more folks whom I don't know at all. Thanks from the bottom of my heart to all who've been so kind and generous! Later, Wally Breese The Joni Mitchell Homepage http://www.JoniMitchell.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:59:27 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: JMDL READER'S CLUB (NJC) mwyarbro@zzapp.org wrote: > I for one would love to take part in a book club type online > discussion with fellow JMDLers, whether it was by chat or by > email submissions. The minds here are so talented and engaging > that it would surely be a success. > > I'm not sure about the logistics of it--perhaps someone knows > of a server that could support a small listserv (books@jmdl.com? > ;-) ). Choose a book a month or so (available in paperback for > us financially challenged folk please), maybe mixing up contemporary > and classic works, and discuss by email. Could be a blast. > > Anyone want to organize it? ;-) Oh, Ellen. Oh, Ellen? Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:20:00 -0800 From: mwyarbro@zzapp.org Subject: RE: re: Patrick Stewart (NJC) Roberto wrote: <<>> When I'm sure he meant to write, For the record, Patrick Stewart isn't out.... ;-) - --Michael, succumbing to gossip P.S. Neither is Ricky Martin. NP: Madonna, "Fever" (Hot Sweat 12" Mix) - ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:40:26 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL READER'S CLUB (NJC) There are free listservs at http://www.onelist.com You can set it up so that people who want to join have to be screened by the moderator, or it can be open to anyone. I run a listserv there and it is VERY user friendly. Terry In a message dated 6/21/99 12:55:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mwyarbro@zzapp.org writes: << I'm not sure about the logistics of it--perhaps someone knows of a server that could support a small listserv (books@jmdl.com? >> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:51:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Sue Subject: Re: A Go-Betweens Joni Sighting ... >In a message dated 6/21/99 10:59:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >dgrowe227@yahoo.com writes: > ><< "This is dedicated to Joni Mitchell, who Grant > (McLennan) and I saw walking down the street in > Toronto today ... she looked fantastic!" Terry then wrote: >Suze in Michigan- you'd better move your trip up! Wonder if Kilauren had her >baby...? Yes! I was hoping for more JMDL luck to smile down on me while visiting Kilauren's hometown. I had forgotten all about the new grandbaby. Oh the thought of meeting up with Joni again! Thanks for the notice and the reminder Terry and Don! Sue Cameron (Suze) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:26:46 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Rothenberg (NJC) TerryM2442@aol.com wrote: > > Anyone familiar with Susan Rothenberg? When I lived in NYC in the mid 80s, I > discovered her horse paintings and went nuts over them. So did I!!! They're still some of my favorite paintings, so simple but incredibly powerful. In the very late 80s, I went to the opening of one of her shows, thinking I'd see some new horse paintings, but she'd moved on to other subjects. The two paintings I remember were one of a rider on a bicyle going through a puddle with the viewer at front tire level. Sounds very clearcut, but you could hardly make out the image. And a tall very endearing portrait of Mondrian dancing, with hints of his colorful squares in the background. Apparently Mondrian loved to dance (who knew?). Both paintings were almost monochromatic, and had the same overlapping smallish brushstrokes she'd used in the horse paintings, so the surface was very active, but the images were so hidden and much more complicated than the outline of a horse so they didn't have the instant appeal of her earlier paintings. They were a very close-up experience, compared to the horse paintings that spoke across a room. I know she's still working, but don't know what her paintings look like now. Although she doesn't get the press attention she did in the 80s, I'm sure she still exhibits her work regularly, but offhand I don't know where. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 12:59:00 -0600 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - June 17 1972: Joni performs in Paris - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 12:58:00 -0600 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - June 16 1983: Joni performs in Irvine, California - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 12:51:00 -0600 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - June 14 1983: Joni performs in Universal City, California - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:52:00 -0600 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - June 15 1979: Joni performs at the "Playboy Jazz Festival" at the Hollywood Bowl in Hollywood, California. 1986: Joni sings three songs at the Amnesty International Concert at Giamts Stadium, East Rutherford, New Jersey. Joni said in an interview "Oh, I picked the perfect material - "The Three Great Stimulants," which addressed the cause. Well, nobody's there for the cause. That's heartbreaking. And in the back room, the managers are squabbling over position. They're kicking U2 out of their rightful spot to put the Police on top with their reunion, and it's ugly. And I did a song called "Number One." And there's a fine in it like "Win and lose/Win and lose/To the loser go the heartsick blues/To the victor goes the spoiling/Honey, did you win or lose?" And in the middle of it - if you see the videotape - my face kind of lights up I'm thinking, "Holy shit, if they stone me now it will be great. It will be so fitting." See pictures at: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/860615.htm Read a review at: http://www.jonimitchell.com/Amnesty86.html Joni discusses the event a bit more at: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/lunch.htm - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:49:49 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! In a message dated 6/21/99 12:32:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, guitarzan@saber.net writes: << If anyone could claim to have popularised Woodstock it's Ian Matthews > who gave Joni her only number one hit with the tune. >> > > Where was this? It certainly is NOT true in the U.S., where the CSN version > is the one that got the most airplay. I don't know if Matthew's version reached #1 in the US, but it did get substantial airplay on the pre-FM airwaves. RR >> Not only can I safely say that Ian Matthews' version did NOT reach #1 in the U.S., I'm not sure his version even REACHED the U.S. at all. Who is he? Never heard of him. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:56:17 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: The Posall and Mosalm for sale on EBay In a message dated 6/21/99 12:35:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jamurray@colby.edu writes: << There is a nifty Joni album on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=117747988 cheers jimbo >> Many JMDL members have previously posted requests NOT to bid on Joni items on e-bay because all we would be doing is competing against each other and driving up the price. Now, no one is telling Jim or anyone else not to post such announcements (though I find Peter's weekly commercial postings to be especially annoying), but it seems to me the consensus is that if you see something interesting of Joni on e-bay or other auction sites, BUY it or ignore it. I, and certainly some other list members, are skeptical of the motives of those who would make such announcements and we find those who use this list for their own commercial or profit-making motives to be repugnant. In other words, let the EXTREMELY WEALTHY owners of e-bay, whom I saw on the Forbes list of the world's richest billionaires only this morning, do their own damn advertising -- somewhere else. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:09:02 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Sucking the life? Angela offers us an interesting comment ... >_____________________________________________________________________ >But what's so good about making your living as a singer if you bludge >(suck the life out of) off other people's work? I think it's almost >>embarrassing to be famous as a singer, but have none of your own work >to show for it. Anyone and everyone can sing a song, but to have >written it and have that special meaning that you can take to your >audience ... that is precious. >_____________________________________________________________________ Angela, i'm just wondering, where does this leave Billie Holiday, Patsy Cline, Frank Sinatra, Nat King Cole or Paul Robeson? just to name a few. i don't recall reading about Mozart singing any of his operas. perhaps you didn't know (for instance) that Oscar Hammerstein & Jerome Kern wrote "Ol' Man River" *with* Robeson 'in mind' as the singer. or that after writing "The Christmas Song" Mel Torme immediately took it to Nat King Cole because he (the composer) knew that Nat was the right person to sing it. keep in mind that Mel Torme was a damn good singer in his own right. BTW: "The Christmas Song"? (ie: "Chestnuts roasting on an open fire") are you suggesting that the "Child" Ballads or other "Folk" songs shouldn't be sung because the 'original' authors are no longer with us or are unknown? personally, i say that singing/recording a *definitive* version of a song IS "your own work." it's often the singer of a song, not the writer who gives it "that special meaning." besides, some songwriters can't sing for sh*t! for now ~ take care, - ------- simon - ------- * Remember, Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupitidy. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:14:31 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Singers v. Songwriters Robert Holliston wrote: > > Also, the position that musicians who perform only the works of others are > negligible and untalented needs to be addressed. Would you expect actors to > write their own plays, or playwrights to act in theirs? ... > ...You go next door to a concert hall, but because > you've offended recreative musicians, you are only allowed to look at the > scores. This would be unilluminating. I had very similar thoughts, such as the difference between reading one of Shakespeare's plays (maybe interesting) and actually seeing it performed (compelling); or that one reason I know some of the words to Bob Dylan's songs is because I also heard Joan Baez sing them. Dylan singing them is a completely different experience. I think if the initial creation is rich enough, it NEEDS to have many different interpreters. On some TV show about Madonna, she was saying she knew she didn't have a very good voice and that's why she writes her own songs, so she'll have something she can sing. She went on to say if she'd had a terrific voice, her career would have been completely different. So singers who have a smooth, traditionally beautiful voice, such as Joan Baez and Judy Collins, IMO, are going to make use of their gift, and maybe later move into songwriting just because they want to, not because they're compensating for an area they're lacking in. Makes sense to me; it's just the way they're made. I love Joni's voice, but it's not a trained traditional sounding voice, so maybe she too wanted songs that perfectly suited her singing. And she needed a less physically stressful way to play the guitar. Also, I think with her being such a natural poet, the only way she'd get songs to express exactly what she felt would be to write them herself. That's just the way Joni's made (lucky for us). But whether that makes Joni more "valuable", I don't think so. There's value and worth in all ways of being, and all types of expression, and none of it exists completely separate from the others. DS ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:33:43 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: evian NJC -thank you for the music From: andrew power Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:53:36 PDT evian (cool name) <> good questions.. i don't about the states at the minute - but for a few years in the uk we've had a re-evaluation of the most common schlock and schlepp and even the bollocks of pop culture (pop did eat itself!) - some of which initially was a Good Thing - it's far easier getting bacharach and tony williams now, thank rock! anyhow - the problem with this cheesefest is that any old toss is 'cool' now - - and also it's made a genuine love of cheese victim to irony (the lowest form of wit) - and the record companies and radio stations are coining it in - - as they needn't invest in new acts when back catalogue pays for that beach house inbarbados as baby boomers, punk mums and dads, gen x-ers age, like any other generation they (we!) slide into nostalgia, and a market for something familiar (or good) is going to open up postWWII pop culture has been underscored by recording technology - archiving itself in it's daily breath - so it's inevitable that the industry capitalise on that i've just realized i've answered a question you didn't ask!! re: your question....... as much as it sticks in my craw to say it - fluff will out it's necessary: a by-product of real art, and capitalism - and in it's scatter-pattern form (one man's aqua is one woman's take that) some of it actually has artistic relevance (qv: tony williams) any discussion of seventies/eighties tat has to include nineties tat - as i've just pointed out - and it's likely that any part-answers to the Q will come from an evaluation of what's doing now like any art - even the dandruffest pop pap - speaks to someone for some period of time the uk singles market has been dominated by teenbopper spending patterns - we've had a lot of short attention span stuff chair-swapping at number one - and, whether market-driven or not, these songs have said something to those who got their dads to buy them women of my generation are 'out' about their duran duran/ take that/ whatever days - a phase is something to treasure, and there's nothing better than being in a gang (for myself i used to enjoy being a mod getting chased by rockers along southport promenade) that's one element of it i think a reading of culture has got to take place within a reading of your own experiences, and blur the edges from there... ta-ra drew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:32:42 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: The Posall and Mosalm for sale on EBay Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:01:43 -0700 From: Randy Remote Gotta chime in here, the quality on this bootleg is not that great, and bid is $30 so far.... "James A. Murray" wrote: > There is a nifty Joni album on ebay. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=117747988 > > cheers > jimbo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:31:55 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: the high tidemark of the sixties From: andrew power Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:19:17 PDT bob <<- - and the best sign-off to the seventies anyone has written>> <> well, every cultural decade starts and ends on it's 2nd year - - eg 1952-1962 (the beatlesend this and begin another) - - 1962-1972 (the demise - artistically or literally - of many 60's greats, the start of glam etc) and 'blue' - whether joni knew then or not - is an elegy to the sixties and a premonition of a culture where the individual looks to themselves, rather than society 'now there's so many sinkin' - you know you got to keep thinkin' to make it through these waves acid, booze and ass, needles guns and grass lots of laughs' [paraphrased] never mind the lyrics - the tone of the track and album - ended with 'richard', a retrospective of failure - the whole thing speaks of this ..... what's siquomb? drew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:47:13 -0400 From: "James A. Murray" Subject: Re: The Posall and Mosalm for sale on EBay >Many JMDL members have previously posted requests NOT to bid on Joni items on >e-bay because all we would be doing is competing against each other and >driving up the price. > Now, no one is telling Jim or anyone else not to post such announcements >(though I find Peter's weekly commercial postings to be especially annoying), >but it seems to me the consensus is that if you see something interesting of >Joni on e-bay or other auction sites, BUY it or ignore it. > I, and certainly some other list members, are skeptical of the motives of >those who would make such announcements and we find those who use this list >for their own commercial or profit-making motives to be repugnant. I'm sorry if some of you found my e-mail to be offensive. It is sometimes amazing how easy it can be to give offense. As to my motives, I was merely trying to make people aware of an interesting item that I myself was not interested in buying. I'll certainly will not do so again given the immediate and negative feedback. jimbo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:50:42 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Early Picasso (NJC) Debra wrote: > Thanks for this list, Kakki. OK, out comes the big book. We must have > the same big book because all four of these are in it, and, yes, I can > seen what you mean about early colorful paintings. The 14th of July > especially is a big surprise. I like all that varied and messy color > he's used. Interesting experiment; definite fauve influence. Wonder how > many of this type he did. There are a number of his earliest paintings in which (to me) his use of color is gorgeous. They are more obscure and not usually among his better-cited works (perhaps because they are somewhat derivative of Cezanne, Matisse and Gauguin). You won't find them in the standard art history book but I recall a few from my days of viewing hundreds of slides in classes and some have stuck in my mind. I do love innovation but will always be a sucker for a pretty painting (or a pretty song). Some of these paintings that I love are "Vendeur des Fleurs" (1901); "Spanish Couple Before an Inn (1900); the Cezanne-like "Self Protrait Yo Picasso (1901) and "Composition Les Paysans" (1906) (reminsicent of his blue and pink period but with a much more beautiful use of color). You can view these and several hundred other of his works at the website http://www.ocaiw.com/picasso.htm Regarding roots of cubism: > It could be that, PLUS taking further what Cezanne had done. Now that I've shaken some of the rust from my brain, I completely agree with you ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:54:18 -0700 From: Lindsay Moon Subject: The Joni v. Joan Debate, by Joni Well, with a head full of Joni stuff (I just submitted Helen's Joni Quiz), I remembered an article I read in which Joni actually speaks of both Judy Collins and Joan Baez. The People Dec. 16, 1985 article says, "... Joni was never quite admitted to the band of reigning female folkies, about whom she is uncharacteristically unaffectionate. "I've known stories of greater generosity," says Mitchell of her relationship with Collins, in particular. In 1968 the two folkniks [People's word, not mine] met and agreed to go to the Newport Folk Festival together. "But my hero, who was supposed to pick me up at my house, never showed up," Joni says. "The following day I got a phone call from her in Newport. She said she felt I should be there. I guess she felt bad about stranding me." Joan Baez showed even less empathy. "She managed, whenever possible, to cut my set back one song when we played together," Joni says. If that clears things up any... Lindsay Moon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:20:35 -0700 (PDT) From: pam tompkins Subject: Re: Excitable find I just ordered it! I am so excited cant wait to see it. Thanks so much for sharing this with us Wally! I love this stuff!!!!!!!!!!! Pam - --- Wally Breese wrote: > Hi everyone, > I got a very pleasant shock a few days ago when > I watched my copy of > the new Japanese re-release of Joni's 1980 > live-in-concert film, Shadows > And Light. This new version runs not 60 but 74 > minutes! What's on those > 14 new minutes? Well, I'm excited to tell you that > two songs not on the > original release are included on this new version- > "Edith And The > Kingpin" and "Hejira." > "Edith" is totally live footage, with lots of > audience shots. This > track, in fact, was promised the last time that > Shadows And Light was > re-released (in 1989 on Warner Home Video), but > although the song was > listed on the box, it was not on the tape. But now > we have it. > "Hejira" is a real find because it appears to > be Joni's first > attempt at a music video. Seven minutes filmed on an > ice-skating rink and > featuring famous skater Toller Cranston; a young > woman twirling in a > bridal gown; and Joni herself skating around in her > "black crow" outfit. > Joni also lip-synchs a few verses from the song, > just like in a regular > MTV-style video. Mostly though, it's Toller > ice-skating and I must admit, > very beautifully. > The colors on this re-release are bold and > crisp, the sound is > great, plus you get two brand-new tracks. What more > could you want? This > re-release of Shadows And Light gets my highest > recommendation, and it > finally answers a question I've had since 1980- why > Joni credits Toller > Cranston for "skates" in the opening credits. This > is a very exciting > discovery, folks! > You can purchase this new and longer Shadows & > Light from the JM.COM > link to CDNOW.COM; They have it available in both > laser disc and VHS > formats. The laser disc version is limited in > quantity, so it can take up > to 8 weeks to get a copy, but it's well worth the > wait. Orders for the > VHS version should be much more quickly filled, as > it was produced in a > much larger quantity. Enjoy! > > Buy it from the "SHOP at JM.COM" page: > > http://www.jonimitchell.com/ShopPage998.html > > Later, > Wally Breese > The Joni Mitchell Homepage > http://www.JoniMitchell.com > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 08:33:07 +1000 From: "Takats, Angela" Subject: joni and joan Hi listers, I seem to have offended some of you with my rather firey talk re:joni and joan and pop culture and those who sing other peoples songs...SORRY. I really didn't mean to take a swipe at people singing other peoples songs - we all do it and enjoy it and many people do it VERY well and I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from doing so! I spose I just wanted to highlight the "ultimate" talent that someone like Joni has - that she can make her own music, write lyrics, sing her own message to all of us (a talent which SOME (not all) performers, who don't write their own material, just don't possess. (Am I digging myself another hole here?) Anyway....I don't have the musical knowledge that many of you do, and can't answer your questions about the talents of many artists who have covered songs and made them famous. Thanks for your thoughts on the joan-joni issue...we are a bunch of rather passionate people, aren't we! Thoughts Ange Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 18:33:24 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! In a message dated 6/21/1999 12:27:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, steveha@email.msn.com writes: << Well, I would make a distinction between those who have simply played her pieces, and those who were definitely influenced by her style. I can't make a judgement here. I don't know most of those people....though I do not like Prince at all, and can't see any JM influences there....and David Crosby definitely had his own style, which probably had some input from Joni, considering how often they must have played together, but it is hard to see. >> I don't like Prince either but he had said in an interview that she was a great influence on him. It is sad you never heard of the late great Michael Hedges. He played mostly open tunings and was an incredible guitarist and vocalist. Jimmy Page had said in an interview as well that Joni influenced him a great deal. He played with Robert Plant in a band called Led Zeppelin. The Indigo girls even say on their first album about Joni and I quote...*Thank you Joni Mitchell for the inspiration. I don't think Annie Lenox just wanted to do a Joni song. From the way she sings it is obvious that she was greatly influenced by Joni. (Annie Lenox played with a band called The Eurythmics). All those new little pop girls out there all were influenced by Joni but obviously can't match up. This is just my opinion and I may be wrong! Catgirl ps Joni and David wrote a song together called Yvette in English...it is one JM Tubulent Indigo and DC Thousand roads ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 18:53:52 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: the Right Joan gets the credit (due her). Angela Takats writes ... >__________________________________________________________________________ >Hi Listers, > >At the risk of offending Joan Baez fans and I'll try and keep this >tame ... Can i just say that it REALLY pisses me off when people talk >of her being THE female singer of the sixties/seventies. I have read >several books and seen docos on music from that time and why is it that >this woman seems to get so much "page space" when she was so average in >>comparison to Joni? I had a big fight with someone the other day about >female artists from that era ... they said Baez lead the way! > >So what's the deal ... was she just on the scene before Joni? is that >why she seems to get such credit? I don't even like her version of >Blowing in the Wind! What is so good about her? was she a great >songwriter? How does she manage to be put in the same catergory as Joni? > > Ange, Sydney >__________________________________________________________________________ Ange, i'm not sure who's making the statements and comparisons you object to, but it's clear that Joan Baez is rightfully due the praise that come her way. she was a Major performer and influence on the entire "Folk" movement of the early '60s, in may ways setting the scene and bringing authentic Traditional Folksongs and Child Ballads to the attention of a larger audience that actually thought the hokey-folky of the Kingston Trio was the real deal. her influence was pervasive. she was in fact the archetype of what the female folksinger was about. All others were in many ways, followers of Joan's in that she was the first, the most influential and the most popular. any new female singer coming up in those days would immediately be compared to Joan. this includes Judy Collins and Joni Mitchell. Joni herself has stated that the 'high-soprano' voice on her early albums was a stylistic-affectation and an attempt to sing in the then current style of Joan Baez and to a lesser extent Judy Collins. Joan's influence IS clearly established as an integral part of the 60's. musically! as well as culturally. however, by the 70's she'd clearly been eclipsed in popularity and influence by both Joni and Judy. however, it's would be inaccurate to cite Joni Mitchell as a major influence on the music scene of the 60's. she only released two albums in the 60's. the first of these (STAS) in March 1968 and CLOUDS in May 1969. kinda late for a time period beginning in 1960. although Joni started out as a Folk singer, she was performing 'original' material (only) very early in her career. in fact, i don't have and can't find any written record of the folksongs performed when she was first starting out. although the Folk Music Scene was on the wane as Joni was on the way up, she was definitely performing on what was still left of the old Folk Music Circuit. a circuit of clubs up and down the Atlantic coast of the US and spreading out into the midwest thru Ohio and Michigan, as well as Canada. Toronto and Montreal in particular. this circuit of clubs grew out of the early 60's popularity of Folk Music and performers like Joan Baez, Judy Collins, Tom Rush, Odetta, Cynthia Gooding and others. other 'older' performers who were being re-discovered and enjoying 2nd careers were also performing on this circuit, as well as in concert halls and college campuses. people like Mississippi John Hurt, the Rev. Gary Davis and Mance Lipscomb to name just a few. i guess it's only natural or at least it seems to be the case on some discussion lists to think that *your* performer is the greatest thing since sliced bread. BUT Joni Mitchell did not arise or arrive in a vacum. she had predecessors. others who came before and set the scene she found in place. praise of one performer does not carry with it any inherent criticism of another. at a time when it mattered, at a time when it counted, at a time when it could get you Killed! Joan Baez stood up and made a difference. i first heard her sing 'Live' at the "March On Washingtion" (8-28-63). she sang "We Shall Overcome." other performers that day included Bob Dylan, Odetta, Marian Anderson as well as Peter, Paul & Mary. BTW: did you know that "Blowin' In The Wind" was one of the most popular Anthems of the Civil-Rights movement? second only to "We Shall Overcome" and "Oh Freedom." the highlight of the day was obviously the "I Have A Dream" speech delivered by the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Joan Baez was an early champion and $$$ supporter of the Civil Rights movement of the early 60's. she was also a close friend of Dr. King and his family. whenever the *call* went out, whenever there was a march, a movement, or a campaign ... whenever there was a need for fund$, the first people Andrew Young and the Rev. Wyatt T. Walker called were Harry Belafonte and Joan Baez. these calls were always answered. Joan didn't just sing in Washington though. she sang in Black churches and schools throughout the south. she sang in the streets and from the beds of pick-up trucks with sharecroppers for her audience. whenever and wherever the 'cause' needed her, she was there. there are numerous photographs of Dr. King leading marches and demonstrations. if you look closely, you'll see Joan Baez in many of these. most of these activities were at the expense of her career. it didn't matter to Joan. it is this larger context that must be brought to light when discussing the career and influence of Joan Baez. Ange, i hope this doesn't sound angry. i'm not angry or offended and i don't intend to be critical either. a person should never be blamed for what they don't know. you may well be one of the many members of the JMDL born in 1970 or after and therefore have no personal knowledge or recollection of these events and realities. hopefully you'll find some of this information useful and interesting. another post follows. yours in friendship. for now ~ take care, - ------- simon - ------- * Remember, if you don't stand for something ... you'll go for anything. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 18:54:27 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Joan Baez ~ A Bio Angela Takats writes ... >__________________________________________________________________________ >Hi Listers, > >At the risk of offending Joan Baez fans and I'll try and keep this >tame ... Can i just say that it REALLY pisses me off when people talk >of her being THE female singer of the sixties/seventies. I have read >several books and seen docos on music from that time and why is it that >this woman seems to get so much "page space" when she was so average in >>comparison to Joni? I had a big fight with someone the other day about >female artists from that era ... they said Baez lead the way! > >So what's the deal ... was she just on the scene before Joni? is that >why she seems to get such credit? I don't even like her version of >Blowing in the Wind! What is so good about her? was she a great >songwriter? How does she manage to be put in the same catergory as Joni? > > Ange, Sydney >__________________________________________________________________________ Ange, here's pt.2 of the deal, a Bio of Joanie (Baez that is). JOAN BAEZ Born: Jan. 9, 1941 in Staten Island, NY Genres: Folk Styles: Country, Folk, Traditional Folk, Singer-Songwriter, Folk-Rock, Pop/Rock, Folk, Contemporary Folk, Folk Revival Instruments: Guitar, Vocals Labels: Vanguard (34), A&M (11), Portrait (4), Pye (3), Gold Castle (3), Capitol (3), Epic (2) The most accomplished interpretive folksinger of the 1960s, Joan Baez has influenced nearly every aspect of popular music in a career still going strong after more than 35 years. Baez is possessed of a once-in-a-lifetime soprano, which, since the late '50s, she has put in the service of folk and pop music as well as a variety of political causes. Starting out in Boston, Baez first gained recognition at the 1959 Newport Folk Festival, then cut her debut album, Joan Baez (Oct. 1960) for Vanguard Records. It was made up of 13 traditional songs, some of them Child ballads, given near-definitive treatment. A moderate success on release, the album took off after the breakthrough of Joan Baez, Vol. 2 (Sep. 1961), and both albums became huge hits, as did Baez's third album, Joan Baez in Concert (Sep. 1962). Each album went gold and stayed in the bestseller charts more than two years. From 1962 to 1964, Baez was the popular face of folk music, headlining festivals and concert tours and singing at political events, including the August 1963 March on Washington. During this period, she began to champion the work of folk songwriter Bob Dylan, and gradually her repertoire moved from traditional material toward the socially conscious work of the emerging generation of '60s artists like him. Her albums of this period were Joan Baez in Concert, Part 2 (Nov. 1963) and Joan Baez/5 (Oct. 1964), which contained her cover of Phil Ochs' "There But for Fortune," a Top Ten hit in the U.K. Like other popular folk performers, Baez was affected by the changes in popular music wrought by the appearance of the Beatles in the U.S. in 1964 and Dylan's introduction of folk-rock in 1965, and she began to augment her simple acoustic guitar backing with other instruments, initially on Farewell Angelina (Oct. 1965). It was followed by a Christmas album, Noel (Oct. 1966), and Joan (Aug. 1967), albums on which she was accompanied by an orchestra conducted by Peter Schickele. Baez continued to experiment in the late '60s, releasing Baptism -- A Journey Through Our Time (Jun. 1968), in which she recited poetry, and Any Day Now (Dec. 1968), a double album of Dylan songs done with country backing, which went gold. In March 1968, Baez had married anti-war protest leader David Harris, who was imprisoned as a draft evader. Harris was a country music fan, and Baez's turn toward country, which continued on David's Album (Jun. 1969) and One Day at a Time (Mar. 1970), reflected his taste. Blessed Are... (Aug. 1971) was a gold-selling double album that spawned a gold Top Ten hit in Baez's cover of the Band's "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down." It was followed by Carry It On (Dec. 1971), the soundtrack to a documentary about Baez and Harris. Baez switched record-label affiliation to A&M Records with Come from the Shadows (May 1972), which moved her in a more pop direction. Where Are You Now, My Son? (May 1973) included sounds taped during Baez's visit to Hanoi in December 1972. In the late '60s and early '70s, Baez moved toward pop/rock music and also began to write her own songs, culminating in the gold-selling Diamonds & Rust (Apr. 1975), which was followed by the entirely self-written Gulf Winds (Oct. 1976). Baez moved to the Portrait label of CBS (now Sony) Records with Blowin' Away (Jun. 1977), but she left the label after Honest Lullaby (May 1979) and her next album, European Tour (1980), was released only outside the U.S. It was another seven years before she found an American record label, Gold Castle, for Recently (1987), which was followed by the live album Diamonds & Rust in the Bullring (Jan. 1989) and Speaking of Dreams (Oct. 1989). Baez moved to Virgin Records for Play Me Backwards (Aug. 1992). In 1993, Vanguard released Rare, Live & Classic, a three-CD boxed set retrospective. Ring Them Bells, a live album on which Baez was joined by musical descendants like Mary-Chapin Carpenter and Indigo Girls, came out on Guardian Records in 1995. William Ruhlmann, All-Music Guide - --------------------------------- Joan Baez: "The Best of Joan Baez" This is an unabashed pitch for middle-period Joan Baez. I know some purists say that early Baez is where it's at and that the compilation The Best of Joan Baez is just too commercial, but I continue to love this album. And I am no latecomer. I heard Joan Baez live when she was still performing at high schools, so I know how great that very early material was and still is. Maybe it's because the music on this album (the best of her A&M albums), finds Baez older and much more relaxed, looser. Perhaps it is because she is writing her own songs and putting herself emotionally out there, on the line. Whatever. This whole album speaks to me, twelve great songs and nary a bad one in the bunch. The song "Diamonds & Rust" (from the album by the same name), written by Baez about her brief love affair with Bob Dylan, is by now a classic and the delivery is incredible. This has to be one of the greatest songs she ever sang. There are the songs "Please Come to Boston," "Sweeter to Me," and "Imagine," all quite moving. And songs like Dylan's "Simple Twist of Fate" and Stevie Wonder's "I Never Dreamed You'd Leave in Summer" are now classic statements of these tunes. So, if you like singer-songwriters and a great voice, here is vintage middle-period (very relaxed) Joan that can't be beat. I always keep my copy of The Best of Joan Baez close at hand, often used for car trips. Michael Erlewine - ---------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 23:55:38 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: JMDL READER'S CLUB (NJC) > > > Oh, Ellen. Oh, Ellen? I think she needs a job too! > > > Jerry - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:59:21 +1000 From: "Takats, Angela" Subject: th Right joan gets the credit (due her) Thanks so much for all the information you have provided me about Joan Baez. I have learnt a lot in the past few days by reading these posts. I was born long after the social movements and troubled times of the 60's and hopefully I can use this as an excuse for my ignorance of the acheivements of someone like Joan Baez. This list is an amazing source of information....thanks Ange Sydney ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #270 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! 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