From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #269 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, June 21 1999 Volume 04 : Number 269 The Laborday JoniFest is happening this fall! For information: send a message to Join the mailing list at: ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Picasso (NJC) [dsk ] Re: Blue [Chad Burkhart ] Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Picasso (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Joan Baez, Pop Culture, etc. (njc) [evian ] Re: Joan Baez, Pop Culture, etc. (njc) ["Kakki" ] Big Yellow Taxi tuning [Howard Wright ] Re: Picasso (NJC) [dsk ] Joni's guitar style [Howard Wright ] Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! [Deb Messling ] re: Patrick Stewart (NJC) [Robert Holliston ] Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit (Warning: passionate response!) [Ashara@aol.c] Re: Joan vs. Joni (NJC) [Ginamu@aol.com] NJC Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit (Warning: p... [Bob.Muller/] Re: Joni's guitar style [Ginamu@aol.com] Toronto (NJC) [Sue ] Mary Travers - NJC [Krys & Geoff ] Re: Big Yellow Taxi tuning [Mark Domyancich ] Re: New in town [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: bridget NJC [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Picasso (NJC) [TerryM2442@aol.com] A Go-Betweens Joni Sighting ... [Don Rowe ] Re: bridget NJC [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: A Go-Betweens Joni Sighting ... [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! [catman ] 101 Responses (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] 101 Responses (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 03:05:35 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Picasso (NJC) Kakki wrote: > > Picasso's very early work was often very colorful. I'm not sure what paintings you're thinking of here. The first of his public paintings that I know about (done when he was about 19) was a darkly colored version of one of Renoir's dancing scenes. Then in the early 1900s (the time of the Fauves) Picasso was mostly doing his pink or light blue or beige paintings, some of them with the paint so thin you can see the canvas. That's not at all like the Fauves' use of intense, non-descriptive colors applied thickly in almost violent brushstrokes or directly from the tube. The Fauvist movement only lasted about five years and, although such expressive use of color occasionally reappears, Picasso never used colors as they did (although I can think of some later paintings where his colors are very rich, but still not what I would call "wildly expressive"). > ...he deliberately adopted the muted and undertstated pallette > characteristic of Cubist art. And wasn't the Cubist movement, in part, a > studied rebellion against the bright, beautiful and romantic Impressionists Good point. I've never heard of this, but it makes a lot of sense. I see Cubism primarily as a continuation of what Cezanne started, that is, the breaking up of solid forms into separate geometric shapes. Part of my thinking this is knowing that Picasso idolized Cezanne and considered him his father, art-wise, so he had great respect for his work and just took it further. > After Picasso moved into abstract > expressionism and beyond, he continued to use the same muted pallette and to > underplay and tone down his colors. I'm being very art history persnickety here, but actually Picasso never moved into abstract expressionism. His work was always based in reality, so even though he broke apart forms and rearranged them, and the result sometimes looked very odd, it was possible to know what object he was describing. Abstract expressionists broke that tie with the real world. Picasso came close to total abstraction, but never went there. > ...I prefer and really like his early Fauvist works... I'm very curious now, Kakki, about what you're picturing here. If you get a chance, please let me know... Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 00:10:56 PDT From: Chad Burkhart Subject: Re: Blue Blue has always been very near and dear to me. It too was my first Joni album. In fact it was the first Joni album that I ever had the opportunity to hear. In residence in my first year of University, some girls were playing the album and they were all singing along. I had heard of Joni before but never really listened to hear before. I fell in love as so many of us do. Of course I could never say which album is my favorite but Blue is up there at the top!!! I had a moment once where I was listening to River and I burst into tears. I have never had any kind of experience like that prior to Joni and it has happened to me with two other songs - "Real Good For Free", or "For Free" depending on the album, and "Rainy Night House." That's discounting just about every song that she sang at the concert in Ottawa last year!!! In a totally unrelated topic, can anyone e-mail me with info on tape trees. I keep hearing about them but don't know much about them. Anyone that has the Ottawa concert on tape, if you can hear a bunch of people screaming at like every break stuff like "We love you Joni," etc, that would be me and my college buddies. We really do love her!!! She even thanked us one time. The crowd was really there to see Dillan but we left when he played (we tried to stay but we don't really like him). We were there for our Joni!!! Yours always, Chadly From Mountains ICQ = 41775889 Go where you will go to Know that I will know you Someday I may know you very well ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 04:06:23 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! In a message dated 6/21/99 1:17:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hell@ihug.co.nz writes: << < I would disagree with this, too. I don't see Joni's influence on many > people. Perhaps you can show me people who she has influenced musically. I > am just not familiar with them. >> >Let's see Prince, Indigo Girls, every single Joni wanna be singer songwriter >(ie Jewel, Jonatha Brooke, The Neilds,etc) , Michael Hedges (by her use of >open tunings), Rickie Lee Jones, Shawn Colvin, David Crosby (he does a bunch >of her songs), Jimmy Page, Heart, Annie Lenox, and I am sure I am forgetting >at least one person! Is anyone familiar with any of these no bodies?? ;>) >Catgirl....thinking about all the interviews where Joni is asked how she >feels about all the people who she influenced.... Well said! Even Madonna has said Court and Spark was her favourite album growing up! Another notable is Sheryl Crow. Helen >> And Sarah McLachlan... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 00:55:27 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Picasso (NJC) Debra wrote: > > Picasso's very early work was often very colorful. > > I'm not sure what paintings you're thinking of here. "The Fourteenth of July, Montmartre" (1901); "Green Still Life" (1914). Of course, it is all relative - they are not as colorful as, for example Matisse's paintings, but they exhibit more vivid color than most of his other paintings. The first of his > public paintings that I know about (done when he was about 19) was a > darkly colored version of one of Renoir's dancing scenes. Then in the > early 1900s (the time of the Fauves) Picasso was mostly doing his pink > or light blue or beige paintings, some of them with the paint so thin > you can see the canvas. That's not at all like the Fauves' use of > intense, non-descriptive colors applied thickly in almost violent > brushstrokes or directly from the tube. The Fauvist movement only lasted > about five years and, although such expressive use of color occasionally > reappears, Picasso never used colors as they did (although I can think > of some later paintings where his colors are very rich, but still not > what I would call "wildly expressive"). I did not mean to classify Picasso as a "Fauve" - I referred to some of his paintings as "fauvist", such as "Sleeping Peasants" and "The Race", which I think are fauvist in the sense of the bold line, distortion of the figures/primitive style for lack of a better classification. These two works are very comparable in style to some of the works of Fauve Matisse. It's kind of like saying I like Joni's jazzy music but she would not technically be classified as a jazz artist. > Good point. I've never heard of this, but it makes a lot of sense. I see > Cubism primarily as a continuation of what Cezanne started, that is, the > breaking up of solid forms into separate geometric shapes. Part of my > thinking this is knowing that Picasso idolized Cezanne and considered > him his father, art-wise, so he had great respect for his work and just > took it further. I never thought of the Cezanne influence. I thought Picasso joined in with George Braque, Marcel Duchamp and the others to develop cubism as a sort of revolutionary movement that was anti-representational, and somewhat anti-color. > I'm being very art history persnickety here, but actually Picasso never > moved into abstract expressionism. His work was always based in reality, > so even though he broke apart forms and rearranged them, and the result > sometimes looked very odd, it was possible to know what object he was > describing. Abstract expressionists broke that tie with the real world. > Picasso came close to total abstraction, but never went there. Yes, a poor choice of words on my part. He was one of the many fathers of abstract expressionism. How does one begin to classify Picasso in persnickety art history terms? He went through so many incarnations and many of his works could fall a little in this category and a little in that category, or they transcend categories. I only ever studied all his various phases and that was about 25 years ago, so I'm definitely rusty at this point and appreciate any further enlightenment as to proper classification! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 02:19:18 -0600 From: evian Subject: Joan Baez, Pop Culture, etc. (njc) Well, first off, I think that comparing Captain and Tenielle to Joan Baez is a little... hasty. As well, I think that pop culture is very important to recognize in that it tells us about not only what fed the masses, but also reveals some very interesting things about ourselves and our development as a society. For example, Joan Baez was and is fiercely dedicated to social causes, and her inclusion in the pop culture lexicon of the 60's shows us how some artists bucked the mainstream in order for social change -- an example of this is Baez's association with MLK. Baez's voice, while some find it grating, could easily have been constantly in the top ten, with songs singing odes to boyfriends and parties, and whatever else was on the radio at the time, but she chose to sing largely political/philosphical songs, and found an audience to boot. On the same note, Baez didn't write most of her own music then, which is another popular culture signifier -- the woman "protest" singer who could, for whatever reasons, find her voice only through songs written by men. Thus, Baez holds a place in pop culture that is very interesting to examine: breaking down conventional barriers by daring to be a "protest" singer (I hate that term, but it's late and I can't think of a better word), and yet still leaving the scripting of experience and social thought to men (however, her delivery of other people's songs, imho, seems to allow her to appropriate their music and transcend it into her own distinct experience). All the while building up a huge following that fits her right into the pop culture history books.... Then along comes Joni, who also marks a distinctive thread in popular culutre, especially in the early 70's. BLUE/FTR/C&S era Joni is also significant to pop culture because it marks a time when women can sing/write/perform their own songs, and sell albums, during the upsurge of singer/songwriters. Joni's placement in the 100 best albums of all time or whatever in RS is a testament to her influence in pop culture. What was happening in pop culture that "allowed" this? Conversely, Joni's "blackballing" (her words) with the release of Mingus, reveals how the masses weren't ready, or weren't given the option, of hearing "the Drycleaner from Des Moines" on the radio. At the same time, and I know I will be a big minority here, so don't bother flooding my email with "you're nuts" comments, I think it is every bit as relevant to look at the popularity of cultural "fluff", be it the Carpenters, New Kids on the Block, Duran Duran, Pac Man, Harlequin Romances, Jacquelin Susann, Star Wars movies, Andy Warhol, etc. Why were these acts/people/things so popular? How did they get popular and who had the power to allow/foster their popularity? What do they represent, and what do they say to us about the society that bought into them, and what does their ultimate downfall mean to culture in general? Does this downfall represent our fickle nature, or does it represent a quest for something more substantial? Moreover, how do these people/things play into other aspects of pop culture? The culture that found it hillarious to have John Ritter pretend to be a gay man to live with two women in an apartment on Three's Company is the one that, 15 years later, freaked out when Ellen comes out as... gasp... an actual Lesbian on her own sitcom. Or The Jefferson's use of the word nigger in prime time in the 70's evolves into a word that becomes known as "the N word" on CNN in the 90's, in news stories. These examples say to me that popular culture over a span of 15 years is still founded on the same constructs -- they are simply taking on different forms. And, of course, there IS a marked change in some respects of pop culture... Toni Morrison finally added to the literary canon, for one (which, of course, leaves the question... who decided this? What about Zora Neale Hurston?), Motown's popularity being subverted with the advent of hip-hop (what events in popular culture fostered this radical change), classic country music giants being overturned with pop friendly Garth's and Shania's (What's all goin' on down yonder in Nashville, besides the obvious money grab)... Jewel being bought over Joni... You get some good, some bad, some strange... and it's always fascinating, confusing, and unique to delve into pop culture. Your long-winded and sunburned friend, Evian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 01:52:00 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joan Baez, Pop Culture, etc. (njc) Great post and excellent food for thought, Evian. But my stomach literally twinged when I read this: > Jewel being bought over Joni... That one I still can't understand - although I think it's more about her youth, image and accessibility than about her music. Young women are probably more likely to identify with her as a peer than say, Joni, Joan, Carly, etc. As for young men, I'm sure it's not really so much about her music ;-) Guess I'll weigh in with my simplistic thoughts regarding Joan vs. Joni. I've always thought Joan had a gorgeous voice - I've never noticed any irritating warble and vibrato - and still think she is one of the best singers of our time. I must admit to not quite liking her stridency although I completely respect her activism. As for Joni, I also have always thought she has an amazingly gorgeous voice. I don't understand people who cannot bear to listen to her sing. I truly don't find anything annoying or flawed in Joni's voice but maybe I was born with a different kind of hearing. I agree with those who think Joni is just as much activist as Joan. Joni just does it more one on one with the listener, while Joan tends to set the stage to rally a group of listeners. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:23:25 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: Big Yellow Taxi tuning >Anybody out there know the tuning for Big Yellow Taxi as played on the >PWWM video? I think it's different from those I've seen before...Thanks >- Bern I think the basic tuning is the same, but it may well be shifted down a little. i.e instead of open E it may have been open D on the video. Open D would be (low to high) : D A D F# A D In joni notation, this is: D 75435 You should be able to pick out the bottom note easily from the video - tune your bottom string to this as a reference, then tune the other strings to this. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 05:38:46 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Picasso (NJC) Kakki wrote: > > "The Fourteenth of July, Montmartre" (1901); "Green Still Life" (1914)... > paintings as "fauvist", such as "Sleeping Peasants" and "The Race", which I > think are fauvist in the sense of the bold line... Thanks for this list, Kakki. OK, out comes the big book. We must have the same big book because all four of these are in it, and, yes, I can seen what you mean about early colorful paintings. The 14th of July especially is a big surprise. I like all that varied and messy color he's used. Interesting experiment; definite fauve influence. Wonder how many of this type he did. > I never thought of the Cezanne influence. I thought Picasso joined in with > George Braque, Marcel Duchamp and the others to develop cubism as a sort of > revolutionary movement that was anti-representational, and somewhat > anti-color. It could be that, PLUS taking further what Cezanne had done. > He went through so many incarnations and > many of his works could fall a little in this category and a little in that > category, or they transcend categories. Yes, Picasso did have an incredibly long and rich career. > ...and appreciate any further enlightenment as to proper classification! Actually, at this point, I think I've exhausted my store of Picasso knowledge... Til next time, next artist? :-) Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:41:08 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: Joni's guitar style Michael wrote: >After listening to TT8 and TTT I am wondering what has happened to >joni's guitar style.It has changed quite radically and IMO not for the >better.She seems to have become quite a lazy guitar player, maybe >relying on the warm full sound of the VG-8 to cover the >articulate playing she used to do. Her playing style certainly has changed - it has evolved steadily over the years, but I don't hear any radical difference in technique on TTT compared to TI. I love her more recent guitar style - bolder, more rhythmic. It may not be to everyone's taste though. Perhaps the tone colours of the VG8 put people off, more than her actual playing style? I don't think it's at all accurate to say that she's become "lazy" on the guitar because of the VG8 sound. I think her playing on this album is much the same as on TI and NRH. Do you find her playing on these albums lazy/simplified too? The VG8 has had a massive impact on her tone, and I think it's opened up a mass of possibilitied for her playing. The layered guitars on Harlem in Havana for example are just wonderful! This just wouldn't have happened without the VG8. Joni loves to talk about her "orchestral" style of playing on the guitar. The VG8 has truly given her the chance to explore this by layering guitar and horn parts, all played of course on the VG8. It's true that her early technique was much more articulate, but she hasn't been playing like this for many years! Songs like "The Priest" or "Marcie" have very intricate picking patterns, but by the time Joni got to Blue and For the Roses she was already using broader picking strokes, and developing her rhythmic style and concentrating less on detailed picking. This evolution has continued I think right up to TTT. Less detailed picking, and bolder rhythms. >A song that comes to mind is Facelift.The guitar does nothing for the >song in fact it detracts from it but I know what Joni could play to >fit the melody and make the song sit beautifully, but doesn't. > >Michael I guess this is just personal taste. I love her playing on this track! It may sound as if she's casually strumming the chords for this one, but listen close to the rhythms - there's a lot of interesting playing there. I think the guitar is a wonderful support for the voice on this track. It may sound easy, but it's surprisingly difficult to play on the guitar with the same rhythmic flow as Joni gets. I'd go so far as to say that the essence of Joni's guitar playing, in the last 5 years or so, is her use of rhythm. And there are some great examples of this on TTT! Howard ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 06:58:01 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! Well, I think there's plenty of talent to be found in singing well, and in interpreting songs so that they sound fresh. I can't quote chapter and verse, but I remember Joni bemoaning the fact that every singer feels they *must* be a songwriter these days. That notion makes for a lot of mediocre songs. At 11:04 PM 6/20/99 EDT, you wrote: > It always bugged me that there are some who just sing >others music. Sure they might sound good but where is the real talent in >that? Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ ~there are only three kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 07:33:18 -0400 From: Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.com Subject: RE: the wrong joan always gets the credit! Steve said: <> Boy, Steve, at least you get credit for cojones for putting this statement out there! :~) Others have already listed many artists who Joni has influenced directly, I doubt that we can really get a handle on who all has been Joni influenced because her influences can be so varied; piano, guitar, confessional songwriting, open tunings, her choices of musical stylings (african influences, jazz influences,) probably half of the folks who are Joni-inflenced don't even know it! :~) <> See, I think you contradict yourself here - imo, her combination of poetry and music IS a new musical form (especially as she displays it in Hejira). <> That's not a bad summation at all! Thanks for sharing your honest opinions - it enables all of us to share... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:06:41 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! - -----Original Message----- From: Steve Haas > Same thing for something like "Woodstock." If Crosby >Stills and Nash hadn't sung it, would it have been a popular tune? It would.. I've heard Joni's version hundreds of times and only heard the CSN version once, that was the time I saw the film. If anyone could claim to have popularised Woodstock it's Ian Matthews who gave Joni her only number one hit with the tune. Anyway it's those prisoners that I pity. Imagine being in jail and having to listen to Joan Baez caterwauling as well. Someone should organise a protest. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 08:17:59 EDT From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: Tape Trees Chad requested: << In a totally unrelated topic, can anyone e-mail me with info on tape trees. I keep hearing about them but don't know much about them. >> Since there seems to be a good number of new people on the list, I think it makes sense to reiterate this information to the whole list. Tape trees are audios and videos of Joni that are distributed to any interested member of this list for usually just an exchange of blank tapes. All the information about tape trees and what is found on them can be found at: JMDL Tape Trading Information Even though all the tape trees are officially closed, you can usually find a kind list member that will tape one or more of them for you with a general polite request to the list. I am still the unofficial "official" video tree dubber (or dubba....no, let's not get into that again!) Anyone who is interested in the tape tree videos (either US version or the European PAL version), can e-mail me privately, and I will be happy to make tapes for you. Hope that helps! Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 08:12:13 -0400 From: Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Joan Baez, Pop Culture, etc. (njc) Evian, sunburned and tired, writes so profoundly: <> First off, evian, you're nuts, OK? Good, got THAT out of the way...wow! we could spend the rest of eternity dealing with these questions. What makes something popular? It can be a number of things: 1. The thing in question might be popular because it's a great work (Thriller, Rumours) 2. It might be popular because it's a pioneer (Pac Man, Star Wars) 3. It might be the thing that taps into the zeitgeist of the moment (Duran Duran who sounded and looked right just when MTV became popular) 4. It might be the result of massive hype (Titanic, New Kids on the Block) 5. It might something that fills a short-term or long-term need (Harlequin Romances, Oreo Cookies) <> You know American pop culture prefers its gay population to be pretend gay; Robin Williams in "Bird Cage", Tom Hanks in "Philadelphia", the list goes on and on. Meanwhile, much better films dealing with gay issues starring real gay actors (Ian McKellan in the excellent "Gods & Monsters", Patrick Stewart in "Jeffrey") go mostly unnoticed. << Or The Jefferson's use of the word nigger in prime time in the 70's evolves into a word that becomes known as "the N word" on CNN in the 90's, in news stories.>> And to even cloud this issue further, the prolific use of "niggaz" on rap, hip-hop tunes...I'll never get this. For someone who was raised by parents who taught me to despise that word as a symbol of racist hatred, now I hear it over and over again and an otherwise enjoyable record like The Roots' latest sits uncomfortably in my ear because of the repeated reference...I KNOW why they use it, I just wish they wouldn't. << classic country music giants being overturned with pop friendly Garth's and Shania's (What's all goin' on down yonder in Nashville, besides the obvious money grab)>> What is now called "country" is filling the gap left by the demise of popular adult contemporary music (See #5 above). Consumers who like Garth, Shania, Dixie Chicks, etc. are not consumers of contemporary black and teeny-bopper music, so "country" has stepped in to become the pop music for those folks. << and it's always fascinating, confusing, and unique to delve into pop culture.>> All in all, a great post, evian! Looks like it's gonna be a busy week on the JMDL! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 05:38:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Holliston Subject: Joan vs. Joni (NJC) I'm consulting my memory, which is pretty good, and I can't think of any references to Joan Baez that place her "above" Joni Mitchell. If she was more prominent during the 1960s, well, that's because she had her first big break in 1959, and recorded her first album several months later. Also, I don't understand any attempts to characterize her as a big pop star - - even at the height of her fame, she was relatively marginal compared to the Everly Brothers, the Beatles, Connie Francis, Herman's Hermits, and, of course, Bob Dylan. And God knows who else - when she first became a famous singer, the charts were dominated by film musical soundtracks like West Side Story and The Sound of Music. For those who accuse her of being second-rate just because she didn't write her own material - well, she did write some songs. I just happen to be a lover of traditional folk songs, which often have no traceable authorship, so am grateful to people like Joan Baez (and Kenneth McKellar, and Peter Pears), who will bring them to life for me. Also, the position that musicians who perform only the works of others are negligible and untalented needs to be addressed. Would you expect actors to write their own plays, or playwrights to act in theirs? Many jazz singers (like Billie Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald, and Sarah Vaughan) wrote very few songs: their artistry is in the varied and memorable ways they made other people's work fresh and new and compelling. Then there's the whole arena of classical music (I realize not everyone on this list is passionate about classical music, so I'm skating on thin ice). I'll just pose this scenario: you visit an art museum featuring a Van Gogh exhibit. Quite naturally it piques your interest in the music written during the same period. You go next door to a concert hall, but because you've offended recreative musicians, you are only allowed to look at the scores. This would be unilluminating. You would miss, to name just one performer, Maria Callas. Who, by the way, was endorsed by Joni in the 1979 Rolling Stone interview ("In the context of opera, Maria Callas was an excellent singer"). Callas never wrote a note of music, but she made a great contribution to it. And that's the end of what I hope has not been a rant. Cheers to all, Roberto (ps to PaulIV: you have every right not to like Joan Baez's voice, just like I have every right not to like Barbra Streisand's voice! A chacun son gout....) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 05:45:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Holliston Subject: re: Patrick Stewart (NJC) Bob, you haven't done your homework ;-) Your list of gay actors in movies included Ian McKellan in the excellent Gods and Monsters, then went on to mention Patrick Stewart in Jeffrey. For the record, Patrick Stewart isn't gay.... He was just pretending! Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 08:52:35 EDT From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit (Warning: passionate response!) Ange wrote from down under, << But what's so good about making your living as a singer if you bludge (suck the life out of) off other people's work? I think it's almost embarrassing to be famous as a singer, but have none of your own work to show for it. Anyone and everyone can sing a song, but to have written it and have that special meaning that you can take to your audience...that is precious. >> Ange, I love ya, girl, but this statement made me so sad. I am a singer and have sung to my heart's content every day since before I could even talk. I very rarely write my own songs, and when I do, it is rare that I have the right opportunity to sing them. Most of my singing is in a band that I am in that plays music for Sacred Circle dancing, which is a bit like folk dancing, but acknowledges the sacred in both the dances as well as the music. I also sing anywhere else that my music seems to fit. In the band, I sing in over a dozen different languages. For each and every song I sing, I research the music, find someone that speaks the language, and trying to honor the language and the country by singing the piece as authentically as possible. A lot of time and effort goes into making that happen. I also teach "Authentic" voice classes, which are classes that help people find the truth in their voices, as opposed to learning how to sing well. My philosophy in my classes is from an old Zimbabwe saying, "If you can walk, you can dance, If you can talk, you can sing." I believe EVERYONE'S song has "special meaning," *and* is "precious." Even though I do not consider my voice to be the very best, and it is certainly far from being a trained voice anymore, I have over and over again seen people moved to tears when I sing because of what is "behind" the song: the passion, the heart, the belief that through every song I sing, I am somehow contributing to bringing peace to this earth. Not only am I not embarrassed to "not have my own work" to sing, but I am honored to sing some of the most beautiful songs I have ever heard, many of which have brought me to tears as well. Phew! Well, there's my very passionate 2 cents worth. Change, anyone? Hugs, Ashara P.S. Ange, am I still welcome Down Under? :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:19:13 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Joan vs. Joni (NJC) In a message dated 6/21/99 8:41:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rhollis@islandnet.com writes: > Also, the position that musicians who perform only the works of others are > negligible and untalented needs to be addressed. Would you expect actors to > write their own plays, or playwrights to act in theirs? Many jazz singers > (like Billie Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald, and Sarah Vaughan) wrote very few > songs: their artistry is in the varied and memorable ways they made other > people's work fresh and new and compelling. I appreciate great singers like Billie Holiday and Ella Fitzgerald. Their voice *is* their art. The singer/songwriter genre is a relatively new thing, right? Jumping into more recent times, one of my favorite singers is Emmylou Harris, who does not write her own material but does brilliant and at times gut-wrenching (IMO) versions of others' songs. She has covered material from Jim Hendrix to Dolly Parton. I believe that June Tabor (she's relatively obscure, I know) is also not a songwriter but Elvis Costello once commented that when she recorded his song All This Useless Beauty, he considered it one of the major achievements of his career. Take care, Gina NP: REM - Monster ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:19:37 -0400 From: Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.com Subject: NJC Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit (Warning: p... Subject: NJC Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit (Warning: passiona --------------------------------- <> You better not change ONE BIT!! ;~D ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:33:03 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's guitar style In a message dated 6/21/99 5:44:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, haw@ph.ed.ac.uk writes: > >A song that comes to mind is Facelift.The guitar does nothing for the > >song in fact it detracts from it but I know what Joni could play to > >fit the melody and make the song sit beautifully, but doesn't. > > > >Michael > > I guess this is just personal taste. I love her playing on this track! It > may sound as if she's casually strumming the chords for this one, but > listen close to the rhythms - there's a lot of interesting playing there. > I think the guitar is a wonderful support for the voice on this track. > It may sound easy, but it's surprisingly difficult to play on the guitar > with the same rhythmic flow as Joni gets. > > I'd go so far as to say that the essence of Joni's guitar playing, in the > last 5 years or so, is her use of rhythm. And there are some great > examples of this on TTT! > Thank you for this very understandable post. It makes sense to me, the musical dunce! I intuitively *feel* what you articulated so well. You've helped to enhance my appreciation of TTT even more! I was somewhat put off by the new sound at first. As usual, I hung in there with it because the lyrics are so lovely and Joni's voice so rich and meaningful. I appreciate this new sound more and more as I allow what Joni has said about her VG8 in interviews, to sink in through repeated listenings. Joni's explanations of her guitar as a palette (and other analogies to painting) have also really helped me to "get it". TTT is currently my most played Joni CD. Take care, Gina NP: REM - Monster Take care, Gina REM - Monster ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:06:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Sue Subject: Toronto (NJC) Toronto area listers, My husband and I will be in Toronto June 26th through July 1 at the Crowne Plaza on Front St. I would love to meet up with any folks and maybe check out some of Joni's old haunts. It is wonderful to be able to see a city through a local's viewpoint. Please e-mail me privately if you can meet up or even if you have any suggestions for things to see while we are in lovely Toronto. Thanks~ Sue Cameron (Suze) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:18:44 +0100 From: Krys & Geoff Subject: Mary Travers - NJC This is just a shot in the dark, but I wonder if anyone on this list knows where I can get hold of a copy of Mary Travers' 1972 album "Morning Glory", either on vinyl or CD? If you can help, please mail me privately. Love and peace, Krys XX ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:23:08 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Big Yellow Taxi tuning It's CGCEGC, C75435. At 10:23 AM +0100 6/21/99, Howard Wright wrote: > >Anybody out there know the tuning for Big Yellow Taxi as played on the > >PWWM video? I think it's different from those I've seen before...Thanks > >- Bern > >I think the basic tuning is the same, but it may well be shifted down a >little. i.e instead of open E it may have been open D on the video. Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net http://home.revealed.net/Harpua http://jmdl.com/guitar/mark "This conformity factory is now closed!" -Homer Simpson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:29:42 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: New in town In a message dated 17/06/99 08:44:13, us@moonviews.demon.co.uk writes: << I enjoyed reading the first digest very much and look forward to learning more about the world of Joni through this valuable medium. >> Welcome, Kris, from another Brit! Whereabouts are you? I'm in London, Crouch end to be precise. The JMDL is indeed great, full of good people from just about all the continents. Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:29:46 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: bridget NJC In a message dated 17/06/99 08:04:00, wallykai@interserver.com.ar writes: << I can't remember who it was [Azeem?] that brought up Bridget Jones's Diary on the list. My everlasting gratitude!!!! >> I'd love to take the credit, Wally, but it weren't me. I haven't read the book yet, but I certainly will when I feel like some light relief from psychology/psychotherapy books! Jimmy wanted to know: << It was quite funny, but I would like to know from the British JMDLers if they use the term "FUCKWITTAGE" in their normal conversations.>> Jimmy, the word "fuckwit" is a not uncommon term of abuse meaning, as you would imagine, a stupid person. However, I have never seen, heard or used "fuckwittage", and suspect that it is a Helen Fielding invention. Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:41:43 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Picasso (NJC) In a message dated 6/21/99 5:37:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dskARTS@concentric.net writes: << Til next time, next artist? :-) >> Anyone familiar with Susan Rothenberg? When I lived in NYC in the mid 80s, I discovered her horse paintings and went nuts over them. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 07:55:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: A Go-Betweens Joni Sighting ... This just in from a review of The Go-Betweens concert in Toronto Friday night ... Robert Forster introduced "Spring Rain" saying: "This is dedicated to Joni Mitchell, who Grant (McLennan) and I saw walking down the street in Toronto today ... she looked fantastic!" Don Rowe _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:59:25 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: bridget NJC In a message dated 6/21/99 10:33:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, AzeemAK@aol.com writes: << << I can't remember who it was [Azeem?] that brought up Bridget Jones's Diary on the list. My everlasting gratitude!!!! >> >> Funny- yesterday's Detroit Free Press mentions that the book is also available on tape. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:01:38 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: A Go-Betweens Joni Sighting ... In a message dated 6/21/99 10:59:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dgrowe227@yahoo.com writes: << "This is dedicated to Joni Mitchell, who Grant (McLennan) and I saw walking down the street in Toronto today ... she looked fantastic!" >> Suze in Michigan- you'd better move your trip up! Wonder if Kilauren had her baby...? Terry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:00:46 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! In a message dated 6/21/99 8:12:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philipf@tinet.ie writes: << > Same thing for something like "Woodstock." If Crosby >Stills and Nash hadn't sung it, would it have been a popular tune? It would. I've heard Joni's version hundreds of times and only heard the CSN version once, that was the time I saw the film. If anyone could claim to have popularised Woodstock it's Ian Matthews who gave Joni her only number one hit with the tune. >> Where was this? It certainly is NOT true in the U.S., where the CSN version is the one that got the most airplay. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:11:31 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! I have never heard another version other than joni's. And yes, there is life beyond the USA. IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/21/99 8:12:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philipf@tinet.ie > writes: > > << > > Same thing for something like "Woodstock." If Crosby > >Stills and Nash hadn't sung it, would it have been a popular tune? > > It would. I've heard Joni's version hundreds of times and > only heard the CSN version once, that was the time I saw the film. > If anyone could claim to have popularised Woodstock it's Ian Matthews > who gave Joni her only number one hit with the tune. >> > > Where was this? It certainly is NOT true in the U.S., where the CSN version > is the one that got the most airplay. > > Paul I - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 08:15:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! colin, in response to Paul, on versions of "Wookstock" ... > I have never heard another version other than > joni's. And yes, there is life > beyond the USA. > Most certainly, but I would still wager that 9 out of 10 people would not only think that "Woodstock" is a CSN&Y song, they'd probably also say the title is "Back to the Garden." Such is the power of overplay ... Don Rowe _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:35:35 -0400 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: VLJC: Bonnie Raitt Concert Review At 08:19 PM 6/20/99 -0400, you wrote: She looked and sounded great, she played a lot of slide guitar, she even >played a little harmonica. I hope the success of the show brings about some >other acts who are tired of only playing big arenas and sheds. Bonnie was >really enjoying herself, and said she considered herself blessed for being >able to have the career she's had. I certainly felt the same after seeing >her show. Bob! Sounds like another superb performance by Bonnie! Thanks for the concert report. Heather ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:39:54 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: echoes LJC (This may come under the heading "you know you are a Joni freak when . . .") I have not written here for a long, long time but something struck me today . . . when I was re-reading a proposal I had written for a TV series for the Travel Channel. The show will take place in various cities, using contemporary and archival footage. One of the cities in the proposal is New York. When writing, I needed to describe Ellis Island with Manhattan skyscrapers in the background. What echoed in my head was "they work the girders of the Manhattan skyline". Well, no one was working on the buildings in my description but paraphrasing her line (and playing with the cadence a bit) the line became "the monoliths of the Manhattan skyline". Later, in the same paragraph, I was talking about skyscrapers being built in the 50s and then needed to make a very quick transition to the 60s, keeping with the building imagery. Describing/writing the 50s line was easy enough but for the next line, I needed to convey completion of buildings, things not there anymore, movement and an idelible image. The line that popped into my head: "A helicopter lands on the Pan Am roof." Unless the reader is a die-hard JM fan, they will never know my inspiration. Howard M ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 08:44:31 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: 101 Responses (NJC) Back from the weekend to about 10 digests, it seems... Don wrote: >the *most* perfect >song for one voice and one guitar has got to be >Richard Thompson's "1952 Vincent Black Lightning." One of my all-time faves! I want the Tinkers to do this song...wouldn't compare to RT's version, but it would be a blast to perform. And Ashara wrote: >Just wondering if anyone in the LA area would like to spend a birthday dinner >with me in August? Count me in! And Paul C. wrote: >"Emotional fuckwittage is an expression coined by one of my friends on the >night when her boyfriend stood her up for relationship counseling." Reminds me...in the '70s I had a roomate named Carl. Carl's sister and a girlfriend came over one night, and wanted us all to go out dancing. Carl declined. He was going to a seminar on "How To Have Fun". True story! >np Spinal Tap - Lick my Love Pump (sorry! wrong thread) Hopefully you were playing it at 11! Best, ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" *NEW* website at: http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 08:44:31 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: 101 Responses (NJC) Back from the weekend to about 10 digests, it seems... Don wrote: >the *most* perfect >song for one voice and one guitar has got to be >Richard Thompson's "1952 Vincent Black Lightning." One of my all-time faves! I want the Tinkers to do this song...wouldn't compare to RT's version, but it would be a blast to perform. And Ashara wrote: >Just wondering if anyone in the LA area would like to spend a birthday dinner >with me in August? Count me in! And Paul C. wrote: >"Emotional fuckwittage is an expression coined by one of my friends on the >night when her boyfriend stood her up for relationship counseling." Reminds me...in the '70s I had a roomate named Carl. Carl's sister and a girlfriend came over one night, and wanted us all to go out dancing. Carl declined. He was going to a seminar on "How To Have Fun". True story! >np Spinal Tap - Lick my Love Pump (sorry! wrong thread) Hopefully you were playing it at 11! Best, ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" *NEW* website at: http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #269 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! 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