From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #257 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Sunday, June 13 1999 Volume 04 : Number 257 The Laborday JoniFest is happening this fall! For information: send a message to Join the mailing list at: ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re:Joni/Carey/Simon ["P. Henry" ] subterranean njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Judy Collins at Wolf Trap ["B. Workman" ] Re: message to joni, larry, or anyone with sway; some jc [Dflahm@aol.com] RE: translating names (NJC) [John van Tiel ] RE: message to joni, larry, or anyone with sway [patrick leader ] RE: Long song titles (NJC) [patrick leader ] Re: Lyric Game [Phyliss Ward ] (NJC) Birthday Guuurrrl [LRFye@aol.com] Re: the siquomb tour [LRFye@aol.com] Re: Joni's New Album? NJC [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: Searching for Drummers and other Musician Types! [Mark Domyancich ] Re: Butch Solutions to Joni [TreyCozy@aol.com] RE: message to joni, larry, or anyone with sway; some jc [patrick leader ] abstract expressionism, etc.? (njc) [patrick leader ] Joni has a new album? [Ryan Lantrip ] re:JONI UNDER THE COVERS ["Takats, Angela" ] LA Chaloner has a birthday!!!! njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] re:why people don't post (NJC) ["Takats, Angela" ] Re: Joni has a new album? [Phyliss Ward ] Transalations (NJC)` [Michael Paz ] Re: Lyric Game ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Searching for Drummers and other Musician Types! [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: abstract expressionism, etc.? (njc) ["Kakki" ] problem? [GREYC1@aol.com] Re: problem? ["Gene Mock" ] Tom Waits on VH1(NJC) [Scott and Jody ] Saskatoon (NJC) [Zapuppy@webtv.net (Rick & Penny Gibbons)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 01:56:08 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re:Joni/Carey/Simon Pat wrote: "I wonder how many others listen to Blue and assume there was a romantic relationship between Joni and Carey?" tell me about it! and a hot one at that! *waving hand in the air frantically* shouting "I'm one! I'm one!" pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 06:05:00 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: subterranean njc remember that movie called "the subterraneans"? leslie caron was in it. who was the guy? i can't remember now. he was gorgeous. george peppard? wallyK, np windy, astrud gilberto ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 08:03:19 -0400 From: "B. Workman" Subject: Judy Collins at Wolf Trap Saw Judy Collins at Wolf Trap in a concert that was recorded to be a live album to benefit PBS. Lovely show. Some very fine songs (City of NO, In the Heat of the Summer, Amazing Grace, etc.,) Two of the clinkers as far as a live album goes were unfortunately Both Sides Now (never in sync with her keybaordist) and Chelsea Morning (where she messed up the lyrics). Nice show anyway. bdub ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 08:24:05 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: message to joni, larry, or anyone with sway; some jc Raymond, I sure would miss NY if I moved away. I was born here and hope to live my life to the end in Manhattan. "If Love Were All" is a song I'd had in my files and played from time to time for many years before Dee Ella Spears said she wanted to put it in her show (about 1995). In fact, the earliest memory I have of hearing it regularly and absorbing it dates from 1980 when Judy Kreston, with Cheryl Hardwick on piano, sang it on Cornelia Street in the Village at JAN WALLMAN'S RESTAURANT. This was fairly significant for me because Judy and I had just begun our romance; we're still together, married since 1990 and we just celebrated 19 years of working together in cabaret. It's a great song-among many reasons-because it's long enough that all by itself it puts some mass, some bulk, in a cabaret act. I think it's hard to make an audience remember you if you have given them 15 unconnected songs to digest. Much preferable to have four or five segments, each of which really "says something." This usually requires groupings or melanges of songs whose relationship to each other is either predictable or startling-but-in-hindsight-inevitable. Of the latter type, I always cite Arthur Kirson, who put together a hair-raising medley a few years ago: "Hello, Young Lovers" and "They Can't Take That Away from Me." A very unexpected pairing, but, perhaps for that reason, enormously moving. So, if you know "Happy Talk," I think you may see that it is saying many of the same things as "If Love Were All" although in a very different rhetorical style. Dee Ella's audience was not the ideal crowd for anything that arty or subtle, but we were happy with the way it turned out; basically that means the transitions between the songs sounded natural, not clanky. As for Joni Mitchell singing "If Love Were All," I think it's a long shot. IMO, she would not sign onto the feeling expressed in the lyric "I believe the more you love a man, the more you give your trust, the more you have to lose." Unless she's evolved much further than I perceive, this is too far away from "Something's lost but something's gained from living every day." (I hope I quoted that correctly). Similarly, to move to another recent list-thread, I'd be surprised if she endorsed the sentiment of "Come Rain or Come Shine." The persona I hear in her recordings celebrates the INTENSITY of love but from "Chelsea Morning" to "All I Want" to "Night Ride Home," hasn't had much to say about the PERMANENCE that is so much the subject of "Come Rain..." Ironically, for the Joni-persona I perceive, there is a perfect song from the same musical which introduced "Come Rain.." i.e, ST. LOUIS WOMAN (1946 w/ Lena Horne). That song is "Any Place I Hang My Hat Is Home." The title just about says it all, but I will quote: Free and easy; that's my style. "How d'ye do" me; watch me smile. "Fare-thee-well" me, after a while, 'cause I gotta roam. And Any place I hang my hat is home. Sweetnin' water, cherry wine, "Thank you kindly" suits me fine. Kansas City, Caroline: that's my honeycomb. And Any place I hang my hat is home. Birds roostin' in the trees pick up and go and the goin' proves That's how it's gotta be; I pick up too, when the spirit moves me. 'cross the river, 'round the bend. Hello stranger, so long friend. There's a Voice in the lonesome wind that keeps whisperin' "Roam." I'm goin' Where the welcome mat is, no matter where that is, 'cause Any place I hang my hat is home. by two of the greatest, Johnny Mercer and Harold Arlen. Ciao for now. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:24:34 +0200 From: John van Tiel Subject: RE: translating names (NJC) WallyK wrote: this may sound REALLY stupid to you native speakers, but my friends and i have ball translating american names literally into spanish; names such as elizabeth taylor, roger plant, josephine baker, brooke shields, jon vickers [the latter two, phonetically rather than literally] and the funniest one of all: lucille ball. it's one of those things that's funny in some languages and silly in others. i wonder if winfried finds it funny in german. It certainly doesn't sound strange to me, Wally. We used to have great times translating names into Dutch (Herbie Hancock was one of the favourites after a couple of Heinekens). I also remember the intense disillusion I felt when I discovered that impressive sounding Russian names like Micheal Gorbachev translates into English as Mike Hump. Leonid Brezjnev would become Leo Riverside, while good old Ukranian Anatoli Tsjernenko would become Tony Black. All mystery blown straight out of the window. Boris Yeltsin? Oh well, what about Barry Dace ... John The Netherlands P.S. Someone at my college at university was called Justin Case. He really was. He must have hated his parents. And in my hometown we have a Chinese dentists, whose chinese name (when pronounced in Dutch) is identical to the Dutch Phrase "Oh, That Hurts". ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 08:57:34 -0400 From: patrick leader Subject: RE: message to joni, larry, or anyone with sway this show is playing off-bway, it was written in the '40s by porter's biographer (and long-time friend), it's two characters (porter and gertrude lawrence) based on porter's sayings, and as someone pointed out it got a fairly negative review in the nytimes yesterday. i thought i'd add that the review LOVED twiggy, said that when she was singing all is right with the play. patrick np- gershwin's world - -----Original Message----- From: Gellerray@aol.com [SMTP:Gellerray@aol.com] Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 12:45 AM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: message to joni, larry, or anyone with sway i wish joni would record "If Love Were All," by Sir Noel (did they make him one of those?). Perhpas it's a bit sentimental and or victim-ish but i don't know, it's awfully eloquent. i see too that there is a Broadway show (with Twiggy?) with the same name. Is it a kind of revue i wonder, a program of N. Coward's songs with some connecting plot? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 09:01:14 -0400 From: patrick leader Subject: RE: Joni's New Album? >Come Rain Or Come Shine. No one has done justice to this classic since Judy i think that bette midler's version, from the 'for the boys' soundtrack, is just wonderful. not belted at all, just caressed. that soundtrack is excellent all the way through, the movie was great during bette's performance sequences, but boy did the rest of it suck! patrick np - gershwins world ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 09:43:21 -0400 From: patrick leader Subject: RE: Long song titles (NJC) i'm going to try and get this right, but there's a song by fred astaire (fred REALLY wanted to be a successful songwriter and published 40 or 50 songs) called: 'how could you believe me when i said i loved you when you know i've been a liar all my life?' pretty long... patrick np - for the boys soundtrack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 07:44:01 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: Lyric Game Checking in to boast I got 10 out of 10. What a kick! I guess lyrics are important to me. Michael Paz wrote: > > > >http://www.thehub.com.au/~bchudso/jmgame.htm > > Finally had a chance to play the lyric game and I thought it was fun. > This could be a good one for the party. I got 7 out of 10, 8 out of 10, > and 4 out of 10. I need to listen more to the words. I have sometimes > just enjoyed the sound of her voice as opposed to trying figure out > everything she meant by the lyrics. - -- Phyliss pward@lightspeed.net http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 10:49:03 EDT From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: (NJC) Birthday Guuurrrl Today, June 12, is our Susan L.A. Chaloner's birthday -- HAPPY BIRTHDAY, "Honey"! Lori San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 10:54:39 EDT From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: the siquomb tour I think my very first post to this list was something about when I lived in Fortuna, North Dakota, three miles from the Saskatchewan border. I spent a lot of time "planning" (day dreaming about) a drive to Maidstone, which I had located on a map. Any chance of visiting there? IS there anything there??? (I know there are at least a few people living there who have internet access, because I've looked it up.) Lori San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 11:22:32 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's New Album? NJC In a message dated 6/12/99 10:07:53 AM Central Daylight Time, trxschwa@bway.net writes: << >Come Rain Or Come Shine. No one has done justice to this classic since Judy i think that bette midler's version, from the 'for the boys' soundtrack, is just wonderful. >> Ray Charles also does a splendid version - I've got it on the "30-something" soundtrack that I picked up for 1$. Bob NP: Traffic, "Freedom Rider" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 10:30:58 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Searching for Drummers and other Musician Types! I still have to find out if I'll be able to go. I would rather perform with another, since I can't sing and play at the same time worth a damn. Hopefully this summer cold won't kill me! Mark, *cough* *cough* At 11:06 PM -0500 6/11/99, Michael Paz wrote: >Hello All (from steamy hot new orleans) > I was wondering (yes again) how many musicians are planning on going to >Ashara's? I know the ones that I met last year, but I am referring to >newbies/people sitting on the fence/or anyone else who may have passed >out drunk or stoned and not picked up on the plans for this little >shindig. I was thinking it really would be fun to have a WHOLE band. A >drummer with kit would be maahvolous. We had a few of us that were able >to collaborate on some tunes, but I am dreaming of some ensembles to >compliment performances. > Special thanks to Heather for the comments about "family" at last years >Joni fest. I felt that same feeling and it was a very comfortable place >for me to just be. Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net http://home.revealed.net/Harpua http://jmdl.com/guitar/mark "This conformity factory is now closed!" -Homer Simpson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 12:14:04 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Butch Solutions to Joni Although I could go on forever about this topic I must say that any one who sings any song should not be afraid to tailor that song to the octave they sing it best in. That must be the sole determining factor IMHO. Many singers especially those who dont thinkl they have a great voice always try doggedly to carry the exact melody while those with great voices donbt worry about that and they make the song their own (Van the Man for instance). They should never be totally afraid to mold the song to their style. We may think it sucks compared to Jonis version HOWEVER anyone who practices art for art sake should never try to duplicate or truly imitate but to allow the song to fulfill their vision and feelings. As I said I could go on forever about this but in a few words I believe this is important. there is no MAN way or WOMAN way to sing many songs. Joni herself says she doesnt sing FOR women she sings for relationships. The trick is if you need to play the song in a radically different key or struycture then they need to put their artistic touch to the tune using jonis melody base and perhaps rhythm base as the foundation.BUT the song must have their personality as well. ie never worry about jonis chords. the song can effectively be sung in any key. You have maybe heard the cliche that a great singer could sing the manhattan phone directory and people would clap. Thats true. marcel.d ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 12:26:00 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Motherhood/creative fires NJC In a message dated 99-06-11 12:21:49 EDT, PitassiM@WEAC.org writes: >P.S. I've wondered many times since Joni publicized her search for Kilauren >whether she could have maintained her career as we know it and raised a >child at the same time. My guess is that she couldn't, and that perhaps, on >the most elemental level, she knew that (although I realize that there were >pressing issues of poverty for her as well). And if she had parented >Kilauren instead during those long years? Mary, that's really a wonderful response to Heather's post. (which I did not read having been deleted due to Grandma overload, but that's another story!). I've been on both sides of the fence: as a mother with a husband and for the past 6 years, as a single mother of three. For myself, both situations, coupled with working in a profession that is not known for anything more creative than neon pocket-protectors, I have had to fight for every ounce of energy that I use for my private, creative writing. And when I feel bad for myself for having such a creative void, I come back to raising my kids as my main creative project. They are brats. They are manipulative. They lie. They run amok. They are kids. They also know that they came tell me that they are straight, gay or in love with a goat and I'll only be concerned that they are happy and that the goat treats them well. A lot gets sacraficed for this effort. Not in an unhealthy, martyr-ish fashion, but it's a lot of energy. Creative energy. The children may be their own people, we can't hang them on a wall or keep them in storage, but it is our creative efforts that brings them to being healthy, stable human beings. As Mary wrote, I don't believe that Joni could have done her mothering and created her art at the same time. More power to her for recognizing that. I do feel that society constrains the mixture of the two and makes it very difficult. It's more than OK for me to put in long hours adding and subtracting sales figures, but it would be viewed with less than tolerance if those hours were spent mixing paints or manipulating clay or locked in a studio. My hats are off to all mothers, (and fathers), who raise their children to be kind, loving and accepting citizens of the world. We are as rich for that as we are for the art of geniuses such as Joni. MG np: The Grandma Chronicles: "how could you let him dye his hair red???" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 15:34:57 -0400 From: patrick leader Subject: modern dancer/ joni fan sighting robert holliston posted this back on may 5 >A short interview with Peggy Baker, one of Canada's foremost modern dancers and choreographers, appeared in this weekend's National Post <>. Two excerpts: Q: Do you have a hero now? Peggy Baker: My hero for the past 30 years, without a moment of interruption, has been Joni Mitchell. I aspire to dance with an eloquence, truth, and originality even remotely comparable to her voice, her words, and music. And she has never stopped growing and developing as an artist. Q: How do you relax? Peggy Baker: I love to read (mainly biographies), to sing with Joni's records, and will never turn down a glass of red wine. well, peggy's an old friend of mine, and when she showed up in my ballet class i just had to tell her about her being discussed on the jmdl. we had a great laugh, and i started to tell her about all the people i've met on this list. another friend of ours was there, and since we stand together at the barre every saturday morning she's heard all about my jmdl journeys to pittsburgh, los angeles, dc at least three or four times, boston, as well as the endless stream of trekkers to new york. peggy was kind of flabbergasted, and so am i, when i think about it. what a great ride this list has been. peggy was at the vancouver concert last may. joni content ends here. the main part of peggy's career was with the modern choreographer lar lubovitch, and he made a great piece to the first three movements of brahms's 3rd symphony. the third movement, a waltz that has one of the most beautifully sad melodies ever written, and in lar's version that movement begins with a solo for the 'woman in red', a role i saw peggy dance dozens of times. i also learned the solo in a rep class, from peggy. when the pianist played the music during the barre in today's class, it was a pleasure to whisper to peggy, 'i can never hear this music without thinking of your dancing'. peggy moved back to canada (toronto) about 5 years ago but she's in town for a dance concert by 40-up, a collective of mature dancers and choreographers. i'm going tomorrow night. patrick np - miles - porgy and bess ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 15:42:24 EDT From: TreyCozy@aol.com Subject: Re: Butch Solutions to Joni In a message dated 6/12/99 9:18:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time, MDESTE1@aol.com writes: << I must say that any one who sings any song should not be afraid to tailor that song to the octave they sing it best in. That must be the sole determining factor IMHO. >> I couldn't agree with you more. YET!! This is easier said than done. People recommend playing Joni's songs in standard in "any key you like", but that takes away the fullness (imho) of that open-tuning-joni sound. Raise the octave - yes. But Joni in standard is just not the same - not to mention very difficult to play! I fear the only REAL solution is the VG8. Wow - what a toy. Wow - what an investment. Trey np - "Pegasus" Myths & Hymns (Guettel - brilliant!! right Patrick??) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 15:57:15 -0400 From: patrick leader Subject: RE: message to joni, larry, or anyone with sway; some jc hey david, what a great post, fascinating to hear your thoughts on these songs and some of your history in cabaret. will you do me a favor and publicize it on the list when next you and judy perform in ny? i think you make good points about the kinds of standards joni would choose to sing, though i would say she tries to break her own mold, in writing as well as material choices. 'comes love' is really about hopeless love, something joni avoids in singing and writing, no? i'd also say that 'two grey rooms' is a very conscious effort to put herself into a character very alien to her own life. on the other hand, she couldn't sing 'the man i love' the way it was written, changing a line to 'and he'll know right from wrong', which is certainly far from the original sense of the song, which doesn't put any conditions or descriptions on the longed-for lover. she also said something about standards in an interview that struck me as a little dense, describing them as emotional one-notes. even if you granted that (which i don't), i'd still say that's where the singer's art comes in, bringing the complexity in with the rendition. anyway, i love your thoughts on assembling a cabaret show. cabaret is one of the few new york cultural experiences i haven't been able to see much of, because there is no cheap way to do it. i can spend $15 for a standing room ticket, sneak into a $40 seat, and see the new york city ballet dancing george balanchine's ballets, which make up in my opinion one of the most significant bodies of art of the 20th century. i can and do go to museums over and over again. even subscriptions to BAM are pretty damn reasonable. but i have no similar approach (that i know of) to cabaret, which is a shame because i love so many of the standards, from loving the old movie musicals. ah, well, maybe i'll be rich some day. patrick, who thanks ray for quietly correcting me (it was coward, not porter). duh... np - miles - porgy and bess ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 17:08:49 -0400 From: patrick leader Subject: abstract expressionism, etc.? (njc) hey carlton, you wrote >Wolfe documents how much of modern art is a sophistic enterprise which requires both an artist AND a critic to lend meaning and interpretation to an empty canvas, or erased pencil marks, or a single yellow line down the middle of a blue field. These experiments in abstraction need a text to justify them - -- but where does that leave the viewer who comes to the work without all that baggage? when i first saw pollock's 'autumn rhythm', i was only vaguely aware of the term 'abstract expressionism', only vaguely aware of abstraction in art at all. i stood in front of the painting, understanding how the painter moved, understanding the leap of faith that created the painting, and feeling that soul-shaking wonder that happens in front of a masterpiece. first of all, it was the only painting i'd ever seen that expressed dance. it wore it's 'process' right there up front, and this has certainly become a major part of art-appreciation. i think it always was, who hasn't ever stood in front of a van gogh and imagined caking on the paint the way he did? my feelings toward pollock cooled some over the years, but in seeing the retrospective here in ny in january, i saw a chronology of an artist discovering, creating as he went along. it was something like listening to joni chronologically, watching someone grow and learn and keep on applying the lessons to get better and better. it was an amazement. i fully believe his work will be treasured in the museums of the centuries to come. not to beat this to death but you wrote >Wolfe documents no, wolfe opines. he's a great writer, but he's never documented anything, every book of his is colored by his own opinions, he practically created opinionated journalism as a valid form. fine. in this case he set up a straw man (abstract expressionism) and shot it down without understanding the individual achievements within the movement. you also wrote >I'm the first to say that Rothko, Jackson Pollack and the other abstract expressionists will not be hanging with the Van Gogh's, Rembrandts and Picasso's in the museums of the future. you're way too late to be first; the peoria chamber of commerce already passed a resolution, condemning abstract expressionists to the stocks, on sight. i'm fairly cool on rothko, detest willem dekooning's work, and i think that this world has not even begun to understand the genius of richard diebenkorn's achievement. but in abstract expressionism like so many other movements, it really comes down to individuals, working within whatever is the prevailing trend or not, and somehow breaking through to create greatness. pollock did. oddly enough, of the artists you expect to last, i have a very controversial alternate opinion. my vote for the painter most likely to be massively devalued in the 21st century: pablo picasso. sure, he did everything well, he changed with the weather and turned out accomplished canvasses in every major style of the early 20th century (most of which he pioneered). and i see that, i do, when i see his canvasses, but i just don't see the spark of inspiration, the genius. and i do in so many other painters' works, almost every van gogh, cezanne, hopper, o'keeffe, pollock, diebenkorn, etc... well, i guess that's enough of patrick opining, eh... np - joy askew - tender city ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 16:36:47 CDT From: Ryan Lantrip Subject: Joni has a new album? I missed a few digest, but i keep on seeing post about a new joni project and a new joni album....whats going on? what did i miss? RL _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 08:47:01 +1000 From: "Takats, Angela" Subject: re:JONI UNDER THE COVERS HELLO MARTIN, Nice to hear from you......I'm pretty new to the list too! <> I'm glad you enjoyed reading about the Tribute show, it was an amazing night, especially cos we don't get much 'joni-stuff' down here in Australia. How about in the UK? that's where you are from, isn't it? lots of joni happenings? <> Can't say I've heard many joni covers.....there were some nasty ones at the Tribute...one lady had a bit of a Tony Childs voice - do u know what I mean, like kind of 'flemmy' (oooh, that does sound gross, doesn't it) just really blunt and non-joni sounding. Another girl decided to jazz up Carey, she reminded me of the singer on Ally Mcbeal (who REALLY pisses me off), trying a little too hard. <> I love performing this song! It always gets a reall good responce, even from those who don't know joni's work. (Wondering how listers would rate my interpretation?) I'd be interested to hear how other people do it, think I'll give Nazareth's version a miss thou gh. Thoughts from Ange Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 20:33:09 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: LA Chaloner has a birthday!!!! njc Hey SooZ: Sorry not be there to blow one for you! Oh but to tango the night through with you, HONEY!!!! Love&Hugs Wally K ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:39:41 EDT From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: Re: abstract expressionism, etc.? (njc) Hey Patrick - Diebenkorn's work leaves me the coldest of all and to be boring is the worst crime in art, slightly worse than being pretentious, which his stuff is as well. I think his work in particular is overly referential, completely built on an internal, clandestine evolution of what had been done in other movements. It's all self-conscious and in love with its own medium and the ultimate art for artistes. Don't even try to convince me otherwise, because I've seen enough of his drippings. The best of his work is a kind of multidimensional neo-cubism, some of it inspired (and I use the word loosely) by my old neighborhood in Santa Monica, but it's still a pretty sterile mind game more than anything else. Yawn. Picasso's work is so vast and varied I don't know where to begin in my exclamation, but there has to be some part of it that anyone could love. He was an innovator, a very good technician, and his stuff is brimming with feeling, his subject matter complex and diverse. A great genius who proved himself again and again over the decades. Different abstract expressionists and pop artists all had their fifteen minutes by coming up with a gimmick: the first to link two canvasses together, the first to produce action painting, the first to paint a canvas a solid color, or alter the shape of a canvas from a square or rectangle into another shape, etc. If you are the first to do it, and can attract some attention, you may get your fifteen minutes. That's part of the Americanization of the world: the constant need for something new. I remember going to a gallery in 1980 that featured the art of a feminist who dragged herself and left her blood across seven canvasses during the week long period of her menstruation. What a concept! Ingenius even. But the actual canvasses were inconsequential. Nothing I'd want to hang in my home - -- and just what did it all mean? When someone references some place like Peoria as having a citizenry who are going to be hostile to something they don't understand, that's the kind of elitism I'm talking about. That's when art is no longer about a genuine communication or the creation of something beautiful or even ugly -- it's a means of distinguishing your self through your tastes, a display of your evolved intellect. How could a bunch of Mid-Westerners understand how really good something is? They're provincials! God forbid they should like anything we do, which means we would have to take it off our own lists. I think the best art critics and historians are the ones who can explain why we are fascinated by a picture. The worst are the types who feel a need to explain why we should appreciate something which may not merit our attention at all. One of the interesting things about abstract art is that it *has* been a part of the mainstream for decades. Many dentist's offices, hotels, motels and people's homes have stuff which is nonrepresentational that they bought at Sears. People buy it because they like the colors or shapes or it makes them feel peaceful or excited. Without Jackson Pollack, we may not have had the spin art of amusement parks and county fairs. It's just that some art critics and historians would tell the Peorians they were looking at the wrong blobs and drips and random brush strokes. I'll agree with you about DeKooning -- one of the most over rated artists of the century. And I like looking at Jackson Pollack's work but for some of the same reasons I like looking at a particularly beautiful piece of marble or a well veined slice of blue cheese or a mottled leaf in autumn: for it's randomness, it's accidents, it's lack of order. But Pollack a great painter? I don't think so. An innovator, an exciter, yes, but I believe his canvasses will be regarded as an interesting experiment in years to come. It's a very subjective matter, and if you love it, keep on loving it and looking at it. But I feel the same about music, movies, novels, etc. -- if it doesn't make me feel anything and it doesn't come from feeling, then it's sophistry, an intellectual exercise and something I am uninterested in. If you can see the play ART, I highly recommend it. Without giving too much away, the friendship between three men is threatened when one of them pays a small fortune to buy an all white painting. The white canvas is the work of a "regarded artist" from the Seventies, and becomes a screen on which the three men project their own internal natures. The friend who is most hostile to the painting rightly perceives that the purchaser is attempting to leave behind his other friends, that the acquisition of this painting will enable to him to associate with a "better" crowd. Clark (feeling very opinionated today) NP: Mussorgsky, Pictures at An Exhibition ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 20:59:07 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Lyric Game well, well, well. I got 10/10, 10/10 and 10/10. Where's the REAL game, if you please? WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 10:22:26 +1000 From: "Takats, Angela" Subject: re:why people don't post (NJC) Amy wrote: <> (Despite being without children) I can relate to these feelings....for years I wrote and wrote and wrote - songs, stories, poems, letters...then I met a wonderful guy and wrote songs about him and then I just stopped writing....for three years. I don't really understand why, I spose different things (kids, partner) become your focus and you can easily lose yourself to them - be consumed by thoughts about and for them, rather than yourself. The thing about writing - I find - is it forces you to look at you, and explore your inner feelings. It's weird, before I met this guy, my creativity often came from depression and lonliness.....finding him stopped these feelings but also stopped me from being in-touch with other emotions. I'm only now beginning to realise the importance - no matter what stage of life one is going thru - of 'staying in touch' with yourself and expressing things - be it thru writing, dance, playing music... <> You sound like a fantastic mother - I must say parenthood scares the hell out of me though, the thought of basically keeping yourself 'available' to your kids, every moment of every day......the thought tires me. It sounds like you need your writing now more than ever - to release feelings before they pile up (mind you - crying feels very good!!) <> KEEP THEM COMING And what your teacher said to you about writing: <> Do have faith, I agree with your teacher, a talent like that doesn't just disappear....the things that you will be able to bring to your writing, when you start again, will be worth the wait. Like you said, the lessons you are learning and emotions you are going thru will make you wiser and much deeper too. <> I don't know if you read Ashara's post awhile back - it was about struggles, and how they make us stronger. I don't know much about being a mother, or much about life really - I'm young and naive - but I do believe in struggles and hardship making us better people - deeper people - richer (in the best sense) for having these experiences. I'm so sorry that you cry at night - I hope you have a shoulder close-by to cry on! But know that your children will thank you for all the precious moments you spend with them and know that your writing - down the track - is going to be deeper and more beautiful than ever! Take care of yourself Ange Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 17:27:40 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: Joni has a new album? Joni is said to be working on an album of "standards" with an orchestra - possibly the London Philharmonic. In addition to pieces like "Stormy Weather", She may include some of her own old standards such as "Both Sides Now" : - ) Ryan Lantrip wrote: > I missed a few digest, but i keep on seeing post about a new joni project > and a new joni album....whats going on? what did i miss? - -- Phyliss pward@lightspeed.net http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 20:12:57 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Transalations (NJC)` Wally K. wrote: "this may sound REALLY stupid to you native speakers, but my friends and i have ball translating american names literally into spanish; names such as elizabeth taylor, roger plant, josephine baker, brooke shields, jon vickers [the latter two, phonetically rather than literally] and the funniest one of all: lucille ball. it's one of those things that's funny in some languages and silly in others. i wonder if winfried finds it funny in german." Hey Wally- Don't tease us give us the translations for your names mentioned. It has always been a fantasy of mine to a Spanglish book with various translations of oddities from our languages (for example the saying in spanish translated literally -No Hay Pedo! Translation- There's no fart-actual meaning- there'e no problem. I could go on for days on this. Michael NP-The Gallery-JM Live on the BBC ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 14:07:42 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Lyric Game WallyK wrote: >well, well, well. I got 10/10, 10/10 and 10/10. Where's the REAL game, if >you please? >WallyK It's coming, it's coming .... I'm about to start writing it any day now! Helen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 22:38:56 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Searching for Drummers and other Musician Types! In a message dated 6/12/99 12:14:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, michaelpaz@worldnet.att.net writes: << I was thinking it really would be fun to have a WHOLE band. A drummer with kit would be maahvolous. >> Michael, Though I won't know till the last minute if I can come (and I'm DYING to come, but have a complicated summer coming up), I could play the drums if no one else comes forward. I'm not great, but I can hold my own. Only problem would be lugging a kit on the plane. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 20:02:17 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: abstract expressionism, etc.? (njc) Patrick wrote: > i'm fairly cool on rothko, I'm reminded of a Rothko exhibit here in L.A. a couple of years ago. An artist friend and I went to see it and it was so strange for both of us. We wandered mutely from painting to painting. The silence was deafening and after awhile it was almost embarrassing - absolutely nothing was evoked in us in any one of the canvases. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 23:40:55 EDT From: GREYC1@aol.com Subject: problem? i'm wondering if there's a problem with the discussion list because i haven't received any email for 2 days now. does anyone know what's up? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 21:31:57 -0700 From: "Gene Mock" Subject: Re: problem? I think everybody must be partying. Oh well. back to the Blue LP. later gene - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, June 12, 1999 8:40 PM Subject: problem? > > i'm wondering if there's a problem with the discussion list because i > haven't > received any email for 2 days now. does anyone know what's up? > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 00:04:46 -0500 From: Scott and Jody Subject: Tom Waits on VH1(NJC) For those of you interested, Tom Waits will be on VH1 - 'Storytellers' tomorrow night. June 13, 9:00 P.M. CST. jody ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 23:56:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Zapuppy@webtv.net (Rick & Penny Gibbons) Subject: Saskatoon (NJC) The party in Saskatoon 2000 is too great a temptation for this kid to miss. My husband and I will try to make a mini-vacation out of it, but one problem....Rick doesn't especially care for Joni or art. Remember my husband? He's the one that started mocking me and the rest of the JMDL, by doing the Meg Ryan resturaunt scene from When Harry Met Sally while we were out for Chinese and Help Me played over the radio. Silly guy, he seems to feel he's had Joni crammed down his throat for 25 years....the nerve! ;-) Anyway, what I'm getting at, if there are other JMDLers that are taking their non-Joni appreciating significant other's who happen to play golf, let me know. If Rick can get in 18 a couple of times we're up there, we'd both be happier! The bar hopping, or sing alongs he can handle, but I don't think he'll be at all entertained with "Oh, well honey, now we're on our way to look at the bridge from Cherokee Louise. Then we're going to look at her high school. Maybe see if Mr Kratzman is still teaching there. Then were going to see if Bill and Myrtle want to be taken out for an intimate dinner with 600 people, etc." ;-D If there are others out there in the same situation maybe these guys will be able to bond with a foursome or two while telling funny horror stories about their love's obsession of The Joan. I know this is still a ways down the road, but it might take some time to sell, the non-Joni's of the trip, how much fun they'll have. Smiles, Penny ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #257 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! 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