From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #250 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Wednesday, June 9 1999 Volume 04 : Number 250 The Laborday JoniFest is happening this fall! For information: send a message to Join the mailing list at: ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Red, red wine [Steve Dulson ] Re: Fwd: 'A Case Of You' ~ Joni's Introduction [Janet Hess ] RE: Thomas Ross, Joni and Jazz [Louis Lynch ] Re: Master List (NJC) [Les Irvin ] New Contest? [Steve Dulson ] Re: 'A Case Of You' ~ Joni's Introduction ["Kakki" ] Re: Red, red wine [Mark Domyancich ] Re: New Contest? ["Kakki" ] New Contest? [Steve Dulson ] Re: New Contest? [Heather Galli ] Re: 'A Case Of You' ~ Joni's Introduction [Don Rowe ] Re: Joni Moment [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] NJC - current art exhibits - somewhat long [Heather Galli ] Re: New Contest? [MDESTE1@aol.com] RE: Thomas Ross, Joni and Jazz [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] RE: shameless plug NJC with ani content [patrick leader ] Joan Armatrading Tour (NJC) [DavinaGr@aol.com] Re: Confessions of a Non-Poster ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: NJC - current art exhibits - somewhat long [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Thomas Ross, Joni and Jazz [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: New Contest? NJC [MGVal@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V4 #248 (NJC/KCC now) [Vince Lavieri ] Re: New Contest? [CaTGirl627@aol.com] The Boho Dance (long) [davidmarine1@webtv.net (David Marine)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 10:02:50 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Red, red wine Scott wrote: >Steve Dulson also had a photo posted on the internet, don't know if it's >still up or not (Steve?) but it was taken backstage at an outdoor venue and >Joni is seen with a Michelob (beer) in her grasp. It somehow got lost in the shuffle when we moved the Tinker pages from AOL to Gem. I'll put it back ASAP. Joni in her Boy Scout (?) uniform, Michelob in one hand, ciggie in the other. A cool photo of Brian Jones playing dulcimer in the "Lady Jane" days did survive the move - it's at: http://www.gem.net/~tinkersown/brian.html And the Rev wrote: >I personally know no one who buys wine by the case Now you do. :) ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" *NEW* website at: http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 13:37:09 -0400 From: Janet Hess Subject: Re: Fwd: 'A Case Of You' ~ Joni's Introduction Oops...I read the first line below as "The bottom line is artists *can* have it both ways." I agreed with the sentiment. Then I reread it and realized there might be a somewhat different meaning. ;) I think the artist can and does have it both ways. The stuff of life may give rise to art that transcends the artist's intent...thank goodness! There are lots of examples of this in Flannery O'Connor's letters ("The Habit of Being"); she sometimes plucked a line from real life and set it down in an utterly different context in one of her stories, and it would be just perfect. Seems to me that one sign of a truly creative person is the willingness to "use" her life that way. That doesn't stop me from taking a certain wicked delight in hearing that (as examples, and I can't swear to either one) "Sexy Sadie" was about the Maharishi or that "You're So Vain" was about Warren Beatty. I think the songs transcend the impulse. At 01:05 PM 6/8/1999 EDT, MDESTE1@aol.com wrote: > > The bottom line is artists cant have it both ways. Biting sarcasm and >invective for their rivals and enemies and peeves and jilted lovers but were >supposed to pretend it doesnt mean anything. Thanks Joni. We may be >fascinated by the artists art but its really hard to separate some of the art >from the artists as human beings. > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 10:02:50 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Red, red wine Scott wrote: >Steve Dulson also had a photo posted on the internet, don't know if it's >still up or not (Steve?) but it was taken backstage at an outdoor venue and >Joni is seen with a Michelob (beer) in her grasp. It somehow got lost in the shuffle when we moved the Tinker pages from AOL to Gem. I'll put it back ASAP. Joni in her Boy Scout (?) uniform, Michelob in one hand, ciggie in the other. A cool photo of Brian Jones playing dulcimer in the "Lady Jane" days did survive the move - it's at: http://www.gem.net/~tinkersown/brian.html And the Rev wrote: >I personally know no one who buys wine by the case Now you do. :) ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" *NEW* website at: http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:41:45 -0700 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: Thomas Ross, Joni and Jazz Mr. Ross, From a jazz player's perspective, I'm sure your analyses are accurate -- the jazz world loves to compare apples to apples, apples to oranges, then oranges to oranges, all the while thinking of every possible chord they can substitute in each comparison. It reminds me of a great conversation I had with my brother Craig after I sent him Joni's "Mingus" for a birthday present. He's a pro jazz guitarist, I'm an Irish harpist and classical pianist: Craig: It's nice Lou, but it's not REAL jazz. I mean, it's an interpretation of a jazz great, but it's not REAL jazz. Lou: That's right, Craig, I keep forgetting you're a REAL jazz musician. Craig: Well, I'm not trying to be a snob or anything, but REAL jazz is different from pop music. Joni Mitchell is good, but she's not REAL jazz. Thanks for sending me the tape, though. Lou: Well, I love the way it sounds. Sorry, next time I'll get something more suitable for a REAL jazz musician. How are your tapes selling, by the way? Craig: Horribly. I'm hardly selling any. I'll never break even at this rate. Louis: Oh, that's right, I forgot, you're a REAL jazz musician. You'll be happy to know, Mr. Ross, that Craig and I have since met halfway and collaborated on several projects. And he eventually broke even on his recording. I turned him on to a few Joni songs, including "Blue Motel Room," "Slouching Toward Bethlehem" and "Chelsea Morning" that he has transformed into whoppingly wonderful jazz renditions. His REAL jazz band plays them often because they are such showstoppers. And you ought to hear what he did to the folk classic "Scarborough Fair"! Remember, some of our jazz standards of today started out as yesterday's pop songs, folk songs and such. If I had to pick a single contemporary composer whose music is destined to become the jazz staple of tomorrow, it would be Joni, hands down. IT'S THE MELODY THAT MAKES A JAZZ CLASSIC!!! And Joni's melodies are top of the line in any genre. And they survive the jazz treatment well. The moot point is that you're trying to pigeonhole a composer as a "jazz composer." That's silly. If you look through your Jazz Fake Book, you will find that most "composers" in there weren't ever known as "jazz composers." Composers are composers, whether they specialize in jazz or not. If Keith Jarrett wrote a sonata in classical style, would he still be a jazz composer? Some of the greatest composers of all time have taken themes from other styles and other worlds and created beautiful music. Our Joni is one of the best at blending styles. That would make her a composer, a jazz composer, a world music composer, a rock composer, and a blues composer, right? And, your comment about "a jazz song has to have chord changes which musicians can play a dozen choruses of and still find variety" also applies to Celtic fiddle tunes, old-timey music, classical variations, bluegrass, mariachi, flamenco, funk-rock jams, and polkas! Jazz started off very experimental, and it has been narrowed down over the years by people who insist on saying what jazz is and what jazz ain't. It's a pity for the genre. Fortunately, there are people like Mr. Lahm willing to take on new themes and keep the spirit of jazz alive. I'm not crazy about all Lahm's takes, but I think it's great jazz. So does my brother Craig. No offense, Tom, but if we were talking in person, I would do what I do to Craig when he waxes elitist -- reach over and untune all your guitar pegs!!!!! Regards, Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 12:43:26 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Re: Master List (NJC) At 08:49 PM 6/7/99 , Michael Paz wrote: >I was wondering if there is a master list of the subscribers of the >JMDL? Is this a public document? What is the current tally? Thanks for >your answers. Michael et al: The list of subscribers is a private, unpublished, and undistributed document. However, I can tell you this: As of today the JMDL is 585 strong, as follows: 439 members of 'joni-digest' (75.0%) 113 members of 'joni' (19.3%) 24 members of 'onlyjoni-digest' (4.1%) 9 members of 'onlyjoni' (1.5%) Les NP - Tim O'Brien - "The Crossing" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:13:47 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: New Contest? Hello all! Sorry to scoop Les and Wally on this, but thought everyone should know this ASAP. Dr. Sig Mondegreen's case load has gone up dramatically, due to the break down in the Kosovo peace talks, no doubt, so the good doctor delegated this to me. A recent patient (identity withheld due to professional ethics, of course) was chatting about, well, penises, and the recent talk of such objects on Joni album covers came up. This patient, who is a long-time intimate friend of Siquomb, revealed that there are penises on ALL THE COVERS! As he related, Joni, being in a rebellious mood, put a rather obvious penis in the psychedelic STAS artwork - and the Reprise censors never spotted it! She was so delighted by this (our source's exact words were "Eeee, she were dead chuffed, like!",as he practically fell off the couch laughing) that she decided to repeat the joke on ALL her covers. Now, Hejira and Mingus have already been outed, and some are no brainers (you thought that was a MICROPHONE on Blue?!?) Our source also pointed out that it is not limited to human apendages (remember we have had covers with horses, cats and dogs.) I suggest that Les start a major contest called "Where's The Willy?" with significant prizes to those who can first spot the penii on all the covers. Any suggestions on suitable prizes? ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" *NEW* website at: http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:34:56 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: 'A Case Of You' ~ Joni's Introduction Simon quoted Joni: > " Well, you know, I think the danger is confusing art with the > artist. The songs are really designed, and some are > autobiographical and some are portraits. Even if they're sung > in the first person, frequently they're portraits. So a lot is > written from identification, much of this historically. > > But I think the point of the songs -- I object to a certain > degree that the public is more facinated by the artist than > the art form itself, and I think that the people who get the > most out of my music see themselves in it. " >> I think Joni is just saying she doesn't want people to miss the forest for the trees. She is admitting here that some of her material is autobiographical and I interpret her context as objecting to people getting wrapped up in the artist to the exclusion of the art. But I don't think that means that we have to get wrapped up in the art to the exclusion of the artist, either. I think Marcel and Janet are actually saying the same thing - Joni does have it both ways and can't deny that she doesn't. Why shouldn't we want to know more about the personal Joni? Some want to know the basis for her inspiration and what informs her. I agree that if that were ALL we discussed it would and should certainly creep Joni out. Yet, she has shared so much of her life with us in her music and also in her paintings. How could we possibly regard her in a cold, clinical vacuum? (unless we are paid critics ;-) I look at it more as biographical details. It's natural to want to know more about the artist, inventor, world leader, or any other person whom one admires. If Joni writes about being devastated in a relationship - sorry, but I do care enough about her as a person, to want to know more it, just as I would with anyone I cared about. If she writes about someone who has made her happy, inspired her, etc., I also want to know who this person is bringing joy to her life. We are only human and so is Joni. Kakki NP: Ellen Whyte & Reflex Blue - I Can Tell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 13:51:38 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Red, red wine I think you can find this photo, or something similar, on Wally's page under The Jazz Singer. I think she's listening to the Persuasions. At 10:02 AM -0700 6/8/99, Steve Dulson wrote: >It somehow got lost in the shuffle when we moved the Tinker pages >from AOL to Gem. I'll put it back ASAP. Joni in her Boy Scout (?) >uniform, Michelob in one hand, ciggie in the other. Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net http://home.revealed.net/Harpua http://jmdl.com/guitar/mark "This conformity factory is now closed!" -Homer Simpson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:58:03 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: New Contest? Swami Steve wrote: > As he related, Joni, being in a rebellious mood, put a rather > obvious penis in the psychedelic STAS artwork - and the Reprise > censors never spotted it! I see it now!! It was so obvious but escaped me completely - here all along I thought they were cactuses, a peacock and a duck head!!! Kakki NP: Pete Belasco - Make More Love ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:13:47 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: New Contest? Hello all! Sorry to scoop Les and Wally on this, but thought everyone should know this ASAP. Dr. Sig Mondegreen's case load has gone up dramatically, due to the break down in the Kosovo peace talks, no doubt, so the good doctor delegated this to me. A recent patient (identity withheld due to professional ethics, of course) was chatting about, well, penises, and the recent talk of such objects on Joni album covers came up. This patient, who is a long-time intimate friend of Siquomb, revealed that there are penises on ALL THE COVERS! As he related, Joni, being in a rebellious mood, put a rather obvious penis in the psychedelic STAS artwork - and the Reprise censors never spotted it! She was so delighted by this (our source's exact words were "Eeee, she were dead chuffed, like!",as he practically fell off the couch laughing) that she decided to repeat the joke on ALL her covers. Now, Hejira and Mingus have already been outed, and some are no brainers (you thought that was a MICROPHONE on Blue?!?) Our source also pointed out that it is not limited to human apendages (remember we have had covers with horses, cats and dogs.) I suggest that Les start a major contest called "Where's The Willy?" with significant prizes to those who can first spot the penii on all the covers. Any suggestions on suitable prizes? ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" *NEW* website at: http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 15:30:35 -0500 From: Heather Galli Subject: Re: New Contest? >I suggest that Les start a major contest called "Where's The Willy?" >with significant prizes to those who can first spot the penii on >all the covers. Any suggestions on suitable prizes? > Sounds like a good one! Kind of like "Where's Waldo" .... hmmmmm could be "Where's Dildo" Heather (Where's The Willy? is good) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 12:26:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: 'A Case Of You' ~ Joni's Introduction As a lover of Joni from a time long before there were CDs ... let alone PCs and an Internet -- the wealth of personal information I've discovered about her since joining the list has been a kind of double-edged sword. A few songs that had great personal meaning for me, with "Night Ride Home" being a prominent example, have now been forever changed since I now have a "real" frame of reference for what the song is supposedly "about." And not for the better ... On the up side, finding out about other songs, such as that "Man From Mars" was about Joni's lost cat has served to make it one of my immediately favorite songs ever. So something's lost and something's gained in living everyday ... Don Rowe _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 15:05:49 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Joni Moment Pearl relates: <> It must be that whoever Publix buys their music from is a Joni fan, because I've heard "Circle Game" in the Greenville Publix... <> I think hearing Joni instantly is a soothing force, like a breath of cool, fresh air on a hot day. For the ones who don't get it, well, they just have to stay stressed out! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 15:21:21 -0500 From: Heather Galli Subject: NJC - current art exhibits - somewhat long Hi Everyone - I would just like to share some info about some recent exhibits here at the Wadsworth Atheneum (in Hartford CT). So, if you don't like to read about art exhibits you can delete now...... (Kakki, Terry, Patrick may be interested) There are three wonderful exhibits currently at the Atheneum which I can't get enough of. The first exhibit is titled "Alfred Stieglitz, Georgia O'Keeffe & American Modernism". This exhibit showcases Alfred Stieglitz's involvement in the development of photography and his key role in establishing it as an enduring medium of fine art. A fine collection of photographs done by Stieglitz are nicely displayed amongst works by those artists in the Stieglitz circle (G. O'Keeffe, M. Hartley, J. Marin, A. Dove and C. Demuth). Of course there are my photographs on display that Stieglitz did of Georgia O'Keeffe that are very stunning. I can't help but notice that O'Keeffe looks very sad or sullen in all the photos. Here is a quote from O'Keeffe about the photographs: "When I look over the photographs Stieglitz took of me - some of them more than sixty years ago - I wonder who that person is. It is as if in my one life I had lived many lives. If the person in the photographs were living in the world today, she would be quite a different person - but it doesn't matter - Stieglitz photographed her then" (Kind of sounds like a reflection on Joni's life) This exhibit is on until July 11th. The next exhibit is "Norman Lewis - Black paintings 1946 - 1977". I'm not a huge fan of Abstract Expressionism but let me tell you ..... this collection is fabulous! I have fallen head over heels for Lewis's work! This wonderful artist worked amongst other Abstract Expressionists such as Pollock, Motherwell,de Kooning, Gottlieb, Kiline and Still ..... and I'm wondering why I haven't seen any of these wonderful paintings before! Like his contemporaries, Lewis uses the color black in his pallet. He interplay's black with other colors in a very luminous way. Lewis best describes his interest in black as (from his comments on his painting *Blendings*) ... "The picture.... is a black picture. It has no social connotation to me,. I wanted to see if I could get out of black the suggestion of other nuances of color, using it in such a way as to arouse other colors, .... this is my becoming ... using color in such a way that it could become other things." He couldn't be more correct. His paintings reveal wonderfully smooth, painted surfaces and whispery soft drawings. You can see his adventurous exploration of line, gesture and form. This exhibit blew me away! I highly recommend. This exhibit ends June 27th. The exhibit will be traveling to Dayton ,Ohio next (of all places!) The final exhibit comes as a loan from the Capitoline Museum in Rome. Some wonderful works by Caravaggio ("St. John the Baptist as a youth" the only time shown outside of Rome!), da Cortona, Velazquez, Veronese and others. What a delight to see these works! I'm a lover of the Baroque period (also neo-Baroque) so I had to be careful not to drool on these paintings! This exhibit ends June 20th. All these works will go back to Rome. I know I have rambled here. I sure wish there were JMDLies nearby to enjoy these wonderful exhibits with. There is a beautiful cafe that serves tasty fare right within the museum. Anyway .... thanks for reading! Heather ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 13:53:28 -0600 From: evian Subject: Confessions of a non-poster (njc) Marian wrote: > I forget that talking to JMDL is a little different from > talking to an individual in a private email where a response is generally > expected in return. > Well, this has got me thinking now about private emails originating from posts. I am now wondering if I appear to be stuck up or something by not responding to private emails about posts on the list. When someone emails privately from the list and says "I loved that post, and it reminded me of..." or whatever, I usually don't reply, just because I assume that all that has been said, and I always fear that I will be boring the person by responding back saying "thanks for the email on the post" or whatever. Also, there have been occassions where I have received such nice compliments about posts that I do wish I would have replied, but you know how it is.. you always say "gee, they wil be getting sick of hearing from me, and this thank you for the post business might just keep going on and on and on". As well, being the anal person that I am, I tend to delete email right away, just to keep my inbox nice and small. So, for the record, I just want to say that I enjoy all the private email I receive, and I really am not stuck up in not replying to some of them... I just don't wanna bore people! Evian np: my cat's howling and yowling, in the throes of her first heat... why didn't I listen to Bob Barker and get my pets spayed and neutered?? WHY WHY WHY??? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 16:53:20 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: New Contest? The jokes off this thread could be endless. reminds me of when I was about 8 and someone explained to me why all the older guys in the room laughed when my mom said let me tell you about the pussy in the willow. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:21:58 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: RE: Thomas Ross, Joni and Jazz Harper Lou said: <> Actually, from what I learned in my Jazz history class @ NC State, Jazz began as a not-very experimental thing at all, but rather very structured. Louis Armstrong, Sidney Bechet, King Oliver, etc. all played a 12-bar blues structure allowing for so many bars of improvisation at certain intervals in the song. Obviously, over the years, jazz has grown from that "structured" mode into the experimental mode you allude to, with the innovations of Be-Bop, Free Jazz, etc. Nowadays, Earl Klugh, Dave Koz, etc. is considered jazz when it wouldn't have been back in the 20's. Personally, I agree with Duke Ellington "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing", and that applies to all music as far as I am concerned. I'm certainly not a jazz snob, I'm just inserting some information I was told a while back. I also think it would serve Reprise & Joni better if her albums could be in the folk, rock, pop, jazz, new age, and whatever other sections the stores segment artists into. Bob NPIMH: Duke Ellington, "Take The A-Train" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 18:15:57 -0400 From: patrick leader Subject: RE: shameless plug NJC with ani content quick plug for my talented friend barbara. i saw this film privately back in november (that long ago?) and it was remarkable, not just for the ani footage (though it confirmed how much i admire her, as musician and person) but for each of the other women, especially the two older ones, one a somewhat dotty/spiritual white woman living the artist's life in o'keeffe land and the other an extremely down-to-earth black woman with a fascinating history and ability to speak on it. absolutely worth seeing if you'd like to contact barbara. patrick Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 00:49:34 -0400 From: BarBearUh please forgive the self-promotion here but i know some of you may be interested... i've edited an independent documentary that is a quirky character study of 5 women, one of whom is ani difranco. it will be screening next week in washington, dc. if you live nearby and might want to attend, please email me privately. barbara np: gershwin's world (over and over and over...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 16:27:05 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: Georgia and Joni At 03:21 PM 6/8/99, Heather Galli wrote of a Georgia O'Keeffe quote: >>(Kind of sounds like a reflection on Joni's life) It would seem that O'Keeffe and Mitchell share many of the same views on art and music and how they affect one's senses. While I'm anxiously awaiting the long-rumored Joni Mitchell writing project (her autobiography) for each and every word, I'm especially interested to read about Joni's visit to meet Georgia at the latter's home and what the experience taught each of them. My guess is that Joni found a true kindred spirit...a woman with an amazingly keen eye for detail who envisions vibrant colors where others only see shades of gray. Each has shown such a tremendous depth of vision in their chosen fields and I consider both virtually peerless. O'Keeffe, the artist, said she felt music was a more effective medium for stirring human emotions and in one personal letter expressed remorse that her work in the visual arts could not usually move her audience as much as a musician's songs could. Joni being both artist and musician would no doubt have some interesting theories about which form of expression is more inspiring. Once again my guess is that Joni finds painting more personally satisfying, but agrees with Georgia that music more easily reaches a broader audience. I don't know when Joni first "discovered" O'Keeffe but suspect it was during her formative years in school. And I've further wondered how much Joni looked to O'Keeffe as a role model...from her ability to immortalize people and things in "everyday" life by painting pictures (or in Joni's case, writing songs), right down to posing in the nude for the FTR album...something O'Keeffe had done many years before. It would be truly special to read Joni's own thoughts not only on O'Keeffe and their apparent similarities but all the other chapters in her life too. I hope this project comes to fruition soon. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 20:26:29 EDT From: DavinaGr@aol.com Subject: Joan Armatrading Tour (NJC) Hi All, I know that there are quite a few Joan fans on this list and wanted to let you all know that she's going to be touring this summer. She's playing the House of Blues here in L.A. on Aug. 11th. If there are any other Joan fans from Los Angeles or elsewhere who would like to join me, please email me privately. Here's the URL with the dates: http://www.joanarmatrading.com/tour.html Take care :-) Davina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 18:42:20 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Confessions of a Non-Poster > Jenaya, > > I've always enjoyed your posts very much and am amazed you received some > snarky (I love that word and stole it from Evian) replies! When you get > stuff like that, please try to ignore it and keep on posting. > > It is true that many of us do a lot of writing in our jobs and perhaps a > professional type of style may seep over into our posts to the list. But I > wish that would not intimidate anyone or put them off from posting! We > can't help it that we are wordy and long-winded! ;-) > > Another thought I had about this thread - I've received a number of posts > from lurkers who have never posted to the list and always been so interested > and impressed with them. Some have some magnificent Joni and other personal > stories to tell. I've always encouraged them to post but they don't seem to > ever appear. Come out, come out - we want to listen! > > Kakki > > My good friend Kakki always knows just what to say but I want to add two cents or maybe a nickel here. So many of the recent 'why people don't post' messages remind me of the feelings I had when I first started posting to this list. I went through the whole gamut. Should I say this? Will I piss somebody off? Geez, am I ever dull, why would anybody want to read anything I write? Why doesn't anybody ever respond to anything I write? These people are all so intelligent and creative and talented. *I* certainly don't belong here. I voiced some of these thoughts at one point in time and had several wonderful responses from people encouraging me and telling me how much they enjoy what I write. So I have kept on trying to express myself and speak my own truth in the best way I know how. Sometimes my opinions aren't the most popular ones. But they are my honest thoughts that I write here and I think most people respect that. One of the wonderful things about this thread has been all of the very eloquent and well-written posts that have come from people who all seem to think their writing skills are lacking! What nonsense! And Marian Russell? And Terry? These are two people who have made some of the best contributions to this list. Don't ever be silent, Terry & Marian! You matter a great deal to many of the members of this group! So to Jenaya and others who have felt that their words have gone unnoticed or that they have been brushed off I say: Keep posting! I for one read just about every post. Some more closely than others. There isn't time for any of us to respond to each and every one. But sooner or later you'll be right in the thick of things! Mark in Seattle > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 11:43:03 +1000 From: "Takats, Angela" Subject: re: knocked for joni-love Lisa wrote: <> I hope you are feeling ok Lisa, thanks for taking time to post the list, I enjoyed hearing from you. I can really relate to what you were saying about having to "ask permission" to play joni CD's and stuff like that. I'm so sick of my friends rolling their eyes when I tell them I've bought another joni CD, or I found a joni album - it's always the same old "Oh Ange, when are you going to get over her". And you know when someone comes over for a chat and you want to play background music...what better music to play than joni - but it's always like "don't u have anything else ange?" "how 'bout you put one of my CDs on"...ARRRGGHHHHH Every time I mention this list they are like "I can't believe you do that"...I am now called "joni wanna be" by several people..(And then I made the mistake of telling a bunch of friends how I wanted to call my daughter (if i have one) JONI...they laughed and said "you are not serious, are you?" "that's ridiculous"...) SO, I FEEL YOUR PAIN LISA OH WELL...tough titties I say, I'm going to keep living and loving all things joni for a long time to come YAY ;) Ange ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 22:02:03 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC - current art exhibits - somewhat long Hi Heather, How I wish I could see those shows. I've never heard of Norman Lewis, but being a fan of abstract expressionism, I think I might like his work. And now a little plug- if anyone is in the Detroit area, I will be showing some of my paintings in a group show at the Cass Cafe' in the Cass Corrider/Detroit. The opening is on June 19 and the show runs until Sept. 11. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 22:12:11 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Thomas Ross, Joni and Jazz Bob, your post raised a couple of very interesting issues. First, I have to say that what decade a certain recording is from is not what determines whether or not it is experimental. Same applies to whether or not a jazz musician adheres to the twelve-bar blues or some other traditional form. There were/are experimentalists in every era of jazz. Charlie Parker, the oft-repeated story goes, was jamming on "Cherokee" when, in his own words "I came alive" over some of the things he found he could do. The late Martin Williams (with whose comments I was very impressed) was one jazz critic who continually maintained that the great innovators in jazz were almost always those who were deeply into the blues and who gave priority to the rhythm over the harmony. As for Earl Klugh being considered a jazz musician...well it's rather a sore point with me. I'm not really familiar with his work or that of the other fusion successes, but I'm loath to call a music jazz when it has a prominent rock beat rather than our beautiful American swing. But calling fusion by the name of jazz is basically a MARKETING tactic very successfully practiced by entrepreneurs who have either done research or know intuitively that the word jazz has had, from the 50s on, very positive connotations. It emblemizes individuality, courage, integrity, creativity, sensuality (you can name other qualities). In the marketplace, this tactic has marginalized the traditional jazz values, the practitioners and faithful listeners who have invested emotionally and esthetically in jazz. We are too often blown off as cranky elitists and this is something that I am resigned to living with. Language is a very, very powerful force and the corruption of language is just as powerful. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 22:13:24 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: New Contest? NJC In a message dated 99-06-08 14:52:15 EDT, steve@psitech.com writes: >I suggest that Les start a major contest called "Where's The Willy?" >with significant prizes to those who can first spot the penii on >all the covers. Any suggestions on suitable prizes? > > "....two dripping raincoats?" MG np: my mom doing the dinner dishes..... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 22:26:19 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V4 #248 (NJC/KCC now) Actually, Don, I think KC's lyrical achievement was greatly surpassed and transcended by the song, and phrase, "MMMMMM bop, my baby, MMMMMM bop." (the Rev) Vince Don Rowe wrote: > --- Doug Barrett wrote: > > You > > will not see several paragraphs devoted to KC and > > the Sunshine Band's lyrics > > "That's the way .. uh-huh-uh-huh ... I like it!" > Brilliant in it's simplicity, staggering in it's > confrontational directness, unambiguous of tone and > timbre, this ranks as a pinnacle of lyrical > achievement. Unlike artists like the legendary Joni > Mitchell, who meander around for sometimes as long as > 16 minutes without coming directly to a point of any > kind, KC and his Sunshine Band have stripped away the > pretension and puffery of modern songwriting, and > jumped back into the tribal fires of the animal soul. > > Don Rowe ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:18:53 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Moment In a message dated 6/8/1999 9:36:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Louis.Lynch@wonderware.com writes: << As I walked to the car, I couldn't determine whether Joni's music calmed the crowd, or whether my ears were just soothed by something beautiful and desperately needed. Supermarkets should be required by law to play Joni music non-stop at all times. "Help me, I think I'm shopping in this store again..." Regards, Harper Lou >> What a great post. You made me smile. I always have my *Joni ears* on when I am out. It is amazing how much I hear her. When I do, I get like yoi and everything seems different! We are all lucky that we have this *Joni ability*...OH YEAH!!! Cat...... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:39:13 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Confessions of a Non-Poster In a message dated 6/8/1999 11:32:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, M.Russell@iaea.org writes: << It's easy for me to agree with something someone writes in JMDL, to find it interesting or enlightening, and not feel like I have to write a reply or make a comment. This is especially true if I'm really busy or if I have a backlog of digests. I'm trying to be more responsive, just because I know how much I appreciate it when people respond to me. >> I have to agree here as well. I read so many wonderful posts. John Van Tiel's post about his trip was wonderful and wanted to make a comment but did not know what to say. I find myself nodding in agreement most of the time and then hit delete or even save the wonderful post to my off line mail box. Now, if this list was more like my Joni list where we get a post once every few weeks I could see doing more responding. BTW, if anyone want to join my list and it would be mainly to get cool pictures that sometimes show up (thanks E.T. btw) you can go to JoniMitchellfans@onelist.com. Eric has put tons of pictures of joni from her songbooks and from his own personal archives. I now have tons of pic of her to put on my CD's that I make for myself. I feel so lucky to have this great invention called a computer and now that I have a Photo quality printer, I can make pics of Joni that look like real photos even better because they are MINE! WHOOOOO-HOOOO! Catgirl....looking at her very cool poster of Joni I got from Steve Polifka. It is huge and right over my computer! YEA!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:47:08 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Joni & Drugs on Wed. May 5, 1999, Zapuppy@webtv.net wrote asking ... >________________________________________________________________________ >I was in Barnes and Noble yesterday and browsed the book on Jaco. Only >had time to read a couple of pages, but it sounds like there was quite >a bit of druggin' going on when Jaco was working / touring with Joni. >I realize our sweet Joan is no saint, but does anybody know how much she >was into a drugs back when coke was all the rage? No judgements, mind >you, just curious. > >Later all, Penny >________________________________________________________________________ maybe the following will shed some light. Q Magazine May 1988 JONI MITCHELL: "CHALK MARK IN A RAIN STORM" by Anthony Quinn ____________________________ Q: Where did drugs figure for you? A: I was late to try everything. I was so over-protected within this stable. When Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young did their first album all I knew was suddenly all their personalities were changing. Graham was getting thin: he wouldn't eat and he stayed up all night. I didn't know any of them was doing drugs. They would hide them and whisper when I was around. Q: But you eventually tried them? A: Oh yeah, I tried everything. Well, I never tried heroin because I thought, "What's the point? The worst that could happen would be you'd like it. But altered consciousness is completely tempting to a writer. I did some good writing, I think, on cocaine - Song For Sharon (Hejira), but it kills your heart, takes all your energy, puts it up in your brain and gives you the arrogance that, you know, ruined Jaco Pastorius. (After destitute years of drink and drug problems the former Weather Report and Mitchell band bassist died last September after being beaten up outside a Florida club.) I watched it ruin a lot of people. Q: Were you aware of being "the spokeswoman for a generation"? A: You mean via the song Woodstock? If I was a spokesperson nobody heard me, so big deal. - ------- simon - ------- * Remember, if you don't stand for something ... you'll go for anything. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 20:55:43 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: Georgia and Joni At 03:21 PM 6/8/99, Heather Galli wrote of a Georgia O'Keeffe quote: >>(Kind of sounds like a reflection on Joni's life) It would seem that O'Keeffe and Mitchell share many of the same views on art and music and how they affect one's senses. While I'm anxiously awaiting the long-rumored Joni Mitchell writing project (her autobiography) for each and every word, I'm especially interested to read about Joni's visit to meet Georgia at the latter's home and what the experience taught each of them. My guess is that Joni found a true kindred spirit...a woman with an amazingly keen eye for detail who envisions vibrant colors where others only see shades of gray. Each has shown such a tremendous depth of vision in their chosen fields and I consider both virtually peerless. O'Keeffe, the artist, said she felt music was a more effective medium for stirring human emotions and in one personal letter expressed remorse that her work in the visual arts could not usually move her audience as much as a musician's songs could. Joni being both artist and musician would no doubt have some interesting theories about which form of expression is more inspiring. Once again my guess is that Joni finds painting more personally satisfying, but agrees with Georgia that music more easily reaches a broader audience. I don't know when Joni first "discovered" O'Keeffe but suspect it was during her formative years in school. And I've further wondered how much Joni looked to O'Keeffe as a role model...from her ability to immortalize people and things in "everyday" life by painting pictures (or in Joni's case, writing songs), right down to posing in the nude for the FTR album...something O'Keeffe had done many years before. It would be truly special to read Joni's own thoughts not only on O'Keeffe and their apparent similarities but all the other chapters in her life too. I hope this project comes to fruition soon. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 00:57:34 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: New Contest? In a message dated 6/8/1999 3:15:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << As he related, Joni, being in a rebellious mood, put a rather > obvious penis in the psychedelic STAS artwork - and the Reprise > censors never spotted it! I see it now!! It was so obvious but escaped me completely - here all along I thought they were cactuses, a peacock and a duck head!!! Kakki >> Are you guys trying to say that the above mentioned items are really that??? catgirl...trying to see beyond the Cactus, duck and peacock...I need a better imagination...that Herjira thing is way far fetched! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:20:14 -0700 (PDT) From: davidmarine1@webtv.net (David Marine) Subject: The Boho Dance (long) Hi list! -- I've been listening to the Hissing session tape and it's extraordinary. I won't go into detail as the tape has not yet been widely circulated, but it has me once again thinking about THOSL. There's been much discussion here about the lyrics from this album. In general I would say that the lyrics on some of the Hissing songs are triumphant, on others uneven. In particular the deliberately cryptic nature of Don't Interrupt The Sorrow strikes me as ultimately weakening the power of the song, as does some of the imagery which reads to me as a little cliched (e.g. God goes up the chimney/Like childhood Santa Claus). Still I recognize the song's place among the ambitious and bold lyrics on this album, and I think often she hits the high mark she's aiming for, especially on Sweet Bird and Harry's House. At any rate I applaud the characteristic fearlessness of her approach. I've read some fascinating and detailed takes here on Sweet Bird and DITS, and though Boho Dance has been mentioned I've missed any in-depth discussion. The song is especially powerful to me at this moment as I am struggling with the same general issues. Also the session version has some surprising and beautiful chords which add different colors to the song. It has been suggested that the Boho dance is the relationship between critic and artist? I can see that as part of it. I would be interested to hear from those who have read the Wolfe book "The Painted Word." My sense of her meaning is that the Boho dance is more generally the flirtation/fascination with a life of austerity, outside the normal constructs of society, as contrasted with a life of luxury and refinement. In other words, the artist as Bohemian. It seems to me that Joni is wrestling with class issues as she does throughout the album, and more specifically with the dichotomy within her of privilege and marginalization, especially as an artist (which she has spoken to in Real Good For Free, Furry Sings The Blues, etc.). "But even in the scuffle/The cleaners press was in my jeans." It struck me that this is the same image that Joni details in her description of her odyssey in Greece. It seems that she was perhaps self-conscious about it and I imagine her being fully a part of the experiences there yet fully separate (as she was again, in a different sense, with the drifters in Refuge Of The Roads). Joni has always -- intuitively, I think -- fought against the divisiveness of these and other distinctions (Both Sides Now, Shadows And Light, Borderline) because ultimately they are aspects of a whole which is so deeply integrated in her and her art that to focus on them is to miss the bigger picture. Who was it here who coined the phrase "Our Lady Of Duality?" In her work she is always herself (embracing and transcending all distinctions), exposing herself endlessly to the criticism of the "elite'" whether it be the jazz, rock, folk elite, the art world elite, or even the literary elite. "Critics of all expression........Saying it's wrong/Saying it's right." The lines that confuse me most are "And you were in the parking lot/Subterranean by your own design." I've always read these lines to mean that literally the person being addressed was the architect of the building, which would imply to me a certain prestige, and that it was a style of architectural refinement and subtleness (subterranean) the virtue of which was inscribed upon contempt for Joni's style (!). In the following verse again the implication is that the person being addressed has affected a style of simplicity ("Sure it's stricken from your uniform"), and that in fact this style was a function in part of not being "rich" ("You couldn't step outside the Boho Dance now/Even if good fortune allowed"). I am left to wonder why this working architect is not financially successful and what his relationship is with the Boho dance, the romanticizing of austerity. Any insight? Is this a complete misreading of the song? "A camera pans the cocktail hour/Behind a blind of potted palms/And finds a lady in a Paris dress/With runs in her nylons." Symbolically legs can represent the ability to conduct oneself with strength and confidence in society, and the stockings, perhaps, a kind of shield or armor. The metaphors of legs as social and personal strength/vulnerability and stockings as shielding or armor appear in many songs: Come In From The Cold, Help Me, All I Want, You Dream Flat Tires, Love Or Money, etc. I believe that at some deep level these images are probably tied to her polio. Polio, like AIDS, is described by people like Caroline Myss as a disease that reflects cultural ideas of weakness and victimization. I will not speculate as to the nature of the spiritual victory which allowed Joni to transcend her affliction. I'm not sure she has ever directly discussed it, though we have over 30 years of work which illuminates the heart of that victory. Well those are my random and rambling thoughts about the song. I have no conclusion, I'm just hoping to hear the views of others, and really this is the only place I can have this conversation. All the best, David (choosing SEND over DELETE) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #250 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?