From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #249 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, June 8 1999 Volume 04 : Number 249 The Laborday JoniFest is happening this fall! For information: send a message to Join the mailing list at: ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Strains of Joni Mitchell coming in through ... [M.Russell@iaea.org] wine or beer [evian ] Re: Case of You question (NJC) [Zapuppy@webtv.net (Rick & Penny Gibbons)] Re: Devil's Interval [Dflahm@aol.com] Joni's Dream Band ["Paul Castle" ] Re: Why Others Don't Post ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Springsteen/Ticket prices [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Case Of You Question NJC [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Springsteen/Ticket prices NJC [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Case Of You Question NJC [Brian Gross ] Re: Case Of You Question NJC [MDESTE1@aol.com] Joni and jazz [Thomas Ross ] NJC Why Others Don't Post [Vince Lavieri ] Joni Moment [Louis Lynch ] Re: Case Of You Question- Stop the Presses ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Confessions of a Non-Poster [M.Russell@iaea.org] Tape Tree #8 and photos [Susan McNamara ] Re: (NJC) Confessions of a Non-Poster [Don Rowe ] RE: JMDL Digest V4 #248 [Doug Barrett ] Re: Joni Moment [WirlyPearl@aol.com] RE: JMDL Digest V4 #248 (NJC/KCC now) [Don Rowe ] Today in Joni History - June 8 [Today in Joni History ] shameless plug NJC with ani content [Bounced Message ] Fwd: 'A Case Of You' ~ Joni's Introduction [MDESTE1@aol.com] Second Fret Sets 1966-1968 [w evans ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 09:18:54 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: Strains of Joni Mitchell coming in through ... John van Tiel wrote: > Just wanted to share this. Strains of Joni Mitchell > coming in through the Bohemian woods. Really loved reading your post, John - thanks for sharing! How nice to know that Joni's music is known in the little villages of the Czech Republic! I felt so surprised to see a message from you in JMDL! Glad you de-lurked and hope you'll be inspired to write more to the list in the future. Welcome back! Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 01:21:41 -0600 From: evian Subject: wine or beer > Plus, does Joni really strike you > > as the beer type??? ;-) > Well, since my sister ended up in cahoots with a waiter to steal me Joni's wineglass when she was in town, she DOES drink wine... but damn, I think you can take the girl outta Canada, but you can never take Canada outta her... thus, I bet she loved to tip back a few beer back in her day at bush parties, and making the requisite bathroom runs in the bush, like a proper Canadian does in the summer! Evian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 00:53:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Zapuppy@webtv.net (Rick & Penny Gibbons) Subject: Re: Case of You question (NJC) At 08:26 PM 6/7/99 -0400, Vince Lavieri wrote: Joni may well enjoy a fine wine over a cold frosty one, but I am sure that Roberta Joan Anderson threw down a few cold ones in her time... Then Scott added: It's been documented that Joni especially likes Chateau Margaux, a fine red wine from France. It's one of the premier first-growths and very expensive. I believe the JMDL's own Deb Messling can attest to its magical qualities as she has had the good fortune to sample this product. Steve Dulson also had a photo posted on the internet, don't know if it's still up or not (Steve?) but it was taken backstage at an outdoor venue and Joni is seen with a Michelob (beer) in her grasp. Scott, admitted wine and beer aficionado I can answer this one first hand too! Meeting Joni backstage at the Jazz Fest, all I had had access to was beer, don't even drink the stuff myself, but I bought one, hoping to give it to her if I got the chance. I got my chance, talked with the lovely Joni, and at the end said, "I know it isn't much, but may I give you a beer?" Her reply "Well, sure". Couldn't tell you if she drank from it or not....I was in too much of a fog from finally meeting her! Smiles, Penny ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 04:22:35 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Devil's Interval Oh boy, youv'e got me started now. I knew sooner or later, I would have (the chance) to try and express clearly what I've thought about chord substitution these many, many years. First, I followed what you were saying up 'til you started talking about Gb. But I don't hear what Gb has to do with ii-V-I in the key of C. Stated briefly, I believe the kind of "tritone substitution" under discussion here began because the jazz bass, in the 1930s evolved from playing two beats to the bar (on 1 & 3) to walking four to the bar, as in Moten, Basie and the other Kansas City innovators. If you're going to make a line that has movement and melodic interest, you'll obvious look for tones to fill the two new beats you're now responsible for (walking four) that you didn't need to deal with playing 1 & 3 only. Our ears accept the direct resolution from Db7 to C Major. 17th Century ears might not have accepted it. In general, I substitute chords for two reasons. One is what I described just now: to give the bass a good line to walk. The other is that I need more ambiguity than the cadence (V-I, ii-V, IV-I, whatever) supplies. I don't want to feel "things have come to an end" until I'm good and ready for that to happen. I've spent a lot of time figuring out ways to keep the balls up in the air, so to speak, longer and longer. An interesting jazz tune, in this respect is "There'll Be Some Changes Made" (were they thinking of chord changes?), a 32 bar tune in which the tonic chord makes its first appearance in, I believe, bar 27. Going back briefly to the G7-Db7-C resolution, I actually interpolated the Db7 when I arranged "Blue Motel Room." (If you're singing along, it is the "new chord" between 'I got the blues' and 'inside and outside my head.') To be totally accurate, in this instance, the C chord resolved to was not C Major but C7. LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 10:45:56 +0100 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: Joni's Dream Band There was obviously something in the wind last weekend - all these magical discoveries rescued from the rubbish bin. Sorting through a pile of old videos, I came across one labelled 'Weather Report - The South Bank Show - having not seen this for about 10 years I stopped everything and sat down to watch it - a TV arts documentary about Joe Zawinul and the boys. What a joy - and what a really lovely man Wayne Shorter is - when asked why, as a kid, he had taken up the saxaphone he answers shyly "because it was shiny". As the documentary ran through the band's various lineups over the years I couldn't help but notice the close connection with Joni - not only Wayne Shorter and Jaco Pastorius but also drummer, Peter Erskine. Just a month ago I had been to the Jazz Cafe here in London to see The Yellowjackets, who were originally Robben Ford's backing band. My jaw dropped when they introduced their new drummer, Peter Erskine. His performance that night was simply stunning and I remember coming out into the streets of Camden Town totally buzzing from having just 'experienced' one of the world's greatest musicians at such close quarters. Hearing (and really liking) Joni's Magdalene Laundries recording with The Chieftains has got me thinking which current band I would most like to hear her playing with live. At the moment, at least, The Yellowjackets would probably be my first choice, as long as I'm allowed one extra guest player --Wayne Shorter, of course. I would love to know your choice for the Joni dream band + guest. Dreamin' PaulC PS - Mind you, I haven't heard David Lahm's band yet - any chance of taking 'Jazz Takes' on the road, David? I would just love to see that at the Jazz Cafe - or Ronnie Scott's. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 21:52:47 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Why Others Don't Post Penny wrote: >The JMDL reminds me a lot of those cherished school days. Sure I had my >close girl friends and my boyfriends, but I loved wandering around in >all the different little camps at school on a daily basis. I felt >equally comfortable with all the groups and mixed it up regularly with >the jocks, and the cheerleaders, the academics, teachers, "heads", >church kids, artists, obedience, rebellion, goody-goody and the hellion, >destroyers, preservers, peacemakers and shit disturbers. (isn't it >amazing and so much fun, how we can all weave Joni into all these little >things? ;-D) But it is just so wonderful to have that kind of diverse >interaction available again. Maybe not face to face so much anymore, >(that probably keeps some of us out of trouble, ha ha), but still at >the tip of our fingers. This place is just such a blessing to me. This sounded so familiar I just had to respond. I was another of those "drifters" at school who had friends in all the different "cliques". There are lots of reasons why I did this (which I won't go into here) - but basically from a young age I've never wanted to restrict myself to one "best" friend, or one particular group of friends - and I still haven't. And the JMDL is so similar. There are people who I group together for one set of reasons, then other people who are in a different "group", etc. And I'm not telling who's with who - you can probably all see it for yourselves! But I feel a "connection" to nearly everyone, and it's amazing how much else people here have in common besides Joni. Which (IMHO) just shows how far-reaching that appreciation is in the way we live our everyday lives. But going back to the subject of the original post, even though I tend to post fairly regularly (the more cynical of my friends would say I just love seeing my own name in print - similar to the sound of my own voice!) - there are more times when I don't post for fear of looking stupid, and I can't count the times I've actually typed a message, then hit , because I've reread it, and it really is stupid! I guess that's one thing about conversation face-to-face - the "editing" facility is not quite so effective - specially for someone that talks as much, or as often as me! But I'd like to think people aren't rolling their eyes, and sighing when "yet another post from that persistent woman in New Zealand" shows up on their screens. I really feel like I've made some friends here! I guess another reason I don't post on some subjects is that I feel my knowledge of Joni pales in comparison to a lot of people - I have my opinions (like everyone else) but sometimes they seem pitiful in comparison to someone who's met Joni, has all the Tape Trees (of which I have zero!) and all the songbooks, etc., etc. (I'm not talking about anyone in specific, BTW!). Living so far away doesn't help - and music/information on Joni is hard to come by at times! I also don't play guitar or piano. Not for lack of trying, but like everything else (besides art, which I appear to have a natural "talent" for) it takes practice, and my brain dislikes repetition above all else. Something that's hindered me a lot - and something I don't seem to be able to change! BTW, I must admit I've been a little shocked at some of the terse (if not downright rude) responses to innocent questions here on the list - and it's only the "newbie" feeling that prevents me from replying to the abuser in a like manner! I'm sure once I've been here a little longer, my mother (who is lying dormant just under my skin, I can feel it) will come out with something along the lines of "if you kids can't play nicely, you can all just go to your rooms"! Anyway, this is turning into an essay, rather than a quick "I agree" to Penny's original post, so I'll shut up and go answer something else! Helen - persistent as ever NP - Indigo Girls - Swamp Ophelia - these girls are really growing on me ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 07:31:02 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Springsteen/Ticket prices In a message dated 6/8/99 1:51:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, p.a.oconnor@worldnet.att.net writes: > I can't think of anyone I'd pay $200 to hear in concert, OK maybe Joni, but > I saw Joni twice last fall for something like $115 for both shows. > What's the most you all would pay for concert tickets and for whom? > Joni is the *only* artist I would pay $250 to see. This very question was posed some months ago and it turned into quite a thread. Les posted yesterday about the Dylan/Simon show. How much were tickets for that show going for? Take care, Gina Gina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 08:05:53 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Case Of You Question NJC Scott pours one: <> And in Atlanta she and her band was drinking Dom Perignon champagne, we found out from the waitress and sent another bottle over to them (to set up our hidden agenda):~) It was Marsha's idea, and it was a good one as it bought us the opportunity to have our own meet n' greet with Siquomb... Bob, fine beer conniseur(sp)...I'll even buy it and carry it into restaurants - just ask Brian "The Brain" Gross...:~D ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 08:14:51 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Springsteen/Ticket prices NJC Paul, who is more wild than innocent, and who probably can't do the E-Street shuffle, says: <> Boy, me too Paul! I'm hoping the success of his summer tour will keep him on the road and he'll come down south (I should say "travel" down south for Terry's benefit...). I read a great book last year called "Bruce Springsteen & the American Dream" that explains that since he grew up in a very blue-collar world he brought that sense of "working up a sweat, putting in a hard day's work" mentality to his shows. Springsteen concerts that last 3-4 hours are not uncommon. You can tell he REALLY loves what he's doing up there. But I ain't about to drop 200$ for a ticket, I can tell you that... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 05:28:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: Case Of You Question NJC - ---Bob.Muller signed his last post as: > Bob, fine beer conniseur(sp)...I'll even buy it and carry it into > restaurants - just ask Brian "The Brain" Gross...:~D Just to clarify: Here in New Jersey, many restaurants (especially Chines Buffets) are not licensed establishments, that is, they do not serve alcohol. So it's ok, in most cases, to BYOB (or in Bob's case, bring your own 6 pack) of beer or wine. And since beer is one of those commodities that cannot be bought, only rented, it is an accomplishment that one can consume an entire 6 pack of 12 ouncers and not need to relieve one's self. And since Les has fixed Bob's list address at work so he's no longer "Bouncing Bob", I hereby bestow upon my loquacious brother-in-Joni, Bob M from SC, the handle of "Big Bladder Bob" Later, Brain, errr, ummm... etc, errr, ummm... Brian, yeah that's it, Brian :-) np: just the creaking noises from my weak and lazy mind === "No paper thin walls No folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" over the sounds of the snoring _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 08:45:58 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Case Of You Question NJC In case musicians wonder sometimes why they dont get much money from record companies its because they often believe that "the company pays the expenses for our tour". What really happens is that all tour expenses are charged against the album profits. Joni and the band with a bottle of chateau margaux probably ate up the profits of the sale of 1000 albums. Just for the record. marcel deste. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 09:13:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Ross Subject: Joni and jazz Well I'm mostly a gainsayer about JM's flirtations with jazz. My perspective is having played jazz professionally (guitar) since about age 15; and of course any perspective has blind spots. A better jazz composer than she? moot, because she ain't one. It's possible to do jazz renditions of almost anything, and I'm sure Mr Lahm's work is worthy. Although there are players who might disagree, a jazz song has to have chord changes which musicians can play a dozen choruses of and still find variety. To enter the repertoire of 'standards', it has to be called at jam sessions, played at concerts, and recorded repeatedly - for the same reason. One of hers that might admit to this is "Woodstock," with its minor-blues plus chorus form. Hasn't happened, because? to me its thrill is not the chords but the Anglo modality (scales such as found in Childe ballads) and of course the glorious, visionary lyrics. Words are seldom a selling point for jazz songs, and in fact many of the best jazz tunes have terrible lyrics. Example of a song that I doubt jazzers will pick up: "Carrie". Changes aren't interesting enough. Instead the words once again pull it through, and JM's great rendition. Again, noteworthy players may do homage to non-jazz music -- thus Oscar Peterson may do an album based on the songs of the show "My Fair Lady", but nobody else plays them. Not to say that her music can't appeal to non-pop musicians: I'm crazy about her earlier albums, and one rapper enthused in Rolling Stone a while back about her music being 'dope', which much of it is. TR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 09:31:06 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: NJC Why Others Don't Post Helen, I really have to get to work but I can't read your post with my own affirmation of how wonderful it always is to read what you con ribute on the JMDL. "Helen M. Adcock" wrote: > > But I'd like to think people aren't rolling their eyes, and sighing when > "yet another post from that persistent woman in New Zealand" shows up on > their screens. I really feel like I've made some friends here! You are one of the people whose name I look for, and you have friends here, you know it! > > > I guess another reason I don't post on some subjects is that I feel my > knowledge of Joni pales in comparison to a lot of people - I have my > opinions (like everyone else) but sometimes they seem pitiful in comparison > to someone who's met Joni, has all the Tape Trees (of which I have zero!) > and all the songbooks, etc., etc. Your knowledge of Joni, and what her music means, is as deep and valid as anyone's; just some are more technically proficient in some aspects of some things. When all is said and done, those of us who do not play are what the musician needs most: the audience, and thus we are very,very important people! All of us together, musical fans and musical experts, Joni collectors, and those with little/no Joni collectables, those who are brash and those who are shy, those who have a forest of tape tress and those in the paved over parking lot, we are all the JMDL community and each of us in our diversity make the whole community what is is. > > > BTW, I must admit I've been a little shocked at some of the terse (if not > downright rude) responses to innocent questions here on the list - and it's > only the "newbie" feeling that prevents me from replying to the abuser in a > like manner! I agree! Helen, keep on keeping on being persistent! We love you! (the Rev) Vince NP: Sketchbook by Louis Lynch, JMDLer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 06:33:45 -0700 From: Louis Lynch Subject: Joni Moment Hi all! I just wanted to relate a Joni Moment, real or imagined (?). We're having an early summer heat wave here in the northeast -- the radios are blaring heat advisories and all. Last evening, I went to a busy suburban grocery store on my way home from work, around 5:30. It was absolutely packed, and the people seemed miserable, and hot, and quarrelsome. One particularly annoying pair of ladies were terrorizing the produce section, engaged in an argument over who was in the other's way. In general, the people seemed irritable and pushy. Then, the in-store radio started to play "He Comes for Conversation." As soon as the song began, the ladies quit arguing and everyone seemed to lighten a little, a lot actually. The do-do-do part was still going strong when I made it to checkout, and the entire store had calmed for a while. People actually stopped talking as loudly -- the noise level dropped tremendously, even the children were quieter. Funny, but as soon as it was over, the radio moved on to an Eagles number. And from the check-out line, I noticed that people starting becoming aggressive with each other again. And, again, the noise level started rising considerably. As I walked to the car, I couldn't determine whether Joni's music calmed the crowd, or whether my ears were just soothed by something beautiful and desperately needed. Supermarkets should be required by law to play Joni music non-stop at all times. "Help me, I think I'm shopping in this store again..." Regards, Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 06:49:07 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Case Of You Question- Stop the Presses > Terry wanted to know: > > < a "case of you" goes beyond the surface of drinking up true > love? I mean, er, how do I say this...HELP ME..umm...is she > talking about some graphic sex here?<< > > I certainly never heard it that way, Terry...and I think "ice > cream is melting on a piece of pie" is a "dirty" lyric btw... And then there's that line about dripping rain coats... Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 09:46:46 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Springsteen/Ticket prices - NJC In a message dated 99-06-08 07:34:25 EDT, Ginamu@aol.com writes: >Les posted yesterday about the Dylan/Simon show. How much were tickets for >that show going for? > > Out here in the psuedo-Bay Area, they were topping $75 a pop. Way too much for me, at least, although I would shell out probably up to $100 for Joni, Bruuuuuuuuuuuce and...ummm....er.....that's about it. The Shoreline is having Jackson Browne, Bonnie Raitt and Shawn Colvin in September and I'm hesitating at the $50+ pricing for freakin' lawn tickets. Fuhgeddaboutit. MG np: Xmas in June: so my Mom arrives with two suitcases: one large, one medium. The former with enough clothing styles to cover anything from a full assault of global warming to a sudden arrival of another ice age. The latter, good sized in its own right, contained: 3 cartons of reduced fat Mars and Milkyway bars, 3 packages of jumbo sized corn-on-the-cob holders, 2 pairs of shears, one emergency sewing kit, one super-soaker squirt gun, (jumbo size), one purse made out of sea shells, two unpainted bird houses, 3 packs of 100 ea. flexible drinking straws.....and you know there may be more.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 09:53:09 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Case Of You Question NJC Brian let it "leak" out: <> And to clarify even further, when I got back to the hotel: "I pissed the 6-pack of Tequiza the full length of the parking lot..." :~) OK, here's the deal - I won't call you "Brian the Brain", you won't call me "Big Bladder Bob"!! ("Smart Ass Bob" is fine by me, btw...) ______________(fill in the blank)Bob, and I did see a REAL snake yesterday when I went running - YIKES! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 16:12:20 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: Love ya Babe!!! (NJC) On Mon, 07 Jun 1999 21:56:36 -0500 Michael Paz wrote: >I not only LIKE you, I LOVE YOU.... Michael, thank you so much for your sweet message! I feel very glad that I dared to say what I've been feeling openly in JMDL. I got so many reassuring messages, some of them from people I was most worried about, and it has been such a relief to know that there was no basis for my anxiety. I am very appreciative of all of the supportive messages I have received both on and off the list. I feel so much more at home here now - as though I am in a community of true friends where it is safe to be me. This is something valuable beyond words. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:00:41 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: Why so many dont post(NJC) On Mon, 07 Jun 1999 18:55:02 Lisa Kowalski wrote: > I suppose its my turn to come out of the shadows > and fess up.My main reason has been my health. > I had been undergoing treatments for breast cancer > when I joined the list in December and was in a state > of major exhaustion(I had to take a leave of absence > from work)I went back to work in March became run > down and developed the worst flu of my life! and was > out of work another 2weeks. Wow, it sounds like you have been through a lot, Lisa - especially dealing with cancer. That must be pretty frightening. I hope you are doing okay now. > I 've been back to work > fulltime for about 2 1/2 months and they have been > working me like a dog!By the time I get out of work, > run errands,come home take care of my 6 cats and > 1 dog,fix dinner get ready for work the next day, > check my regular mail and read the JMDL posts I'm > exhausted and its beddy bye time for me.I think of > things I'd like to say,but I cant stay awake to type > and send. It sounds like your job is very stressful. Maybe you need to find an easier job that gives you more time to relax and do things you enjoy. You should move to Europe where six weeks of paid vacation every year is the norm - one of the main reasons why I continue to live here! > I'm also not very knowledgeble when it comes > to modern music and politics and alot of stuff goes > over my head.I also feel that so many people on this > list are so intelligent amd knowledgeble and express > themselves like journalists and I guess I'm afraid of > expressing a thought or opinion and sounding like a > dweeb.I guess I just have low self esteem or something. These are my feelings, and it seems like other people on the list feel this way, too. I quite liked what Heather said: > IMHO, I don't think there are any boring people on this list. > We come for conversation. There is so much dimension to > the JMDL and that is what I find very interesting. Besides, > look at all these people who love Joni's music! I'm glad to > be in such good company. We all have something to offer. I hope you will not be afraid (and also that your life will settle down enough so that you'll have the energy) to contribute when you feel moved. > A friend of mine shook her head and said "You've got > it bad" when she saw me wearing my Joni denim shirt. I have two denim Joni shirts and three of the same TTT t-shirts! You can tell her that there are people who have it much much worse than you! > Take care...Lisa(who has been on this computer for > 1 1/2 hrs! and put great effort into typing this post > and who hopes there arent too many errors!) Don't worry about the errors. I've made so many myself, just in the haste of trying to communicate something. I always assume other people make errors for the same reasons. It's the ideas being communicated that are important, not grammar and spelling. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 08:07:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Joni and jazz - --- Thomas Ross wrote, on Joni as jazz composer: > A better jazz composer than she? moot, because she > ain't one. It's > possible to do jazz renditions of almost anything ... I agree that trying to pigeon-hole Joni as a "jazz composer" is, indeed, moot. There are undeniably jazzy elements that run throughout her work, but words like "flirtation" come along with a bit more *superiority* implications than I'm comfortable with. I can just hear some holier-than-thou purist saying something like, "Well DJRD is good, you know, for what it is." I'll bristle every time I hear this kind of aesthetic nonsense ... whether we're talking Joni, Elvis, Miles Davis or JS Bach. Just because an artist borrows elements of style from other genres of music doesn't make them a "poser." Joni is no more a "jazz pretender" for recording Mingus than she is a "classical pretender" for composing Paprika Plains. Why must there always be those who feel some moral indignation at efforts like these? Always those who say, "Go back to Both Sides Now where you belong." And now that I've worked up a head of steam, if "Both Sides Now" doesn't qualify as a standard, even under the strictures of your post, then what is? In the end, all music is derivative in some sense or another -- and thank goodness that's true -- life would be pretty boring if all we had to listen to was plainsong. Don Rowe _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:29:07 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: Confessions of a Non-Poster On Mon, 7 Jun 1999 16:59:41 -0700 Jenaya Dawe wrote: > The other time I spoke up, about my experiences with > outsiders in high school, generated a couple private > replies that I felt were attacking and that made me > uncomfortable. I remember your posts, Jenaya. I thought you added really interesting, inside perspectives into the whole matter. I'm sorry to hear that you got some negative personal replies. > I can think of two other times that my posts have been > completely ignored, and lemme tell ya, it doesn't make > a person want to ask a question or raise a point. This has happened to me, too, and I've been thinking about it a lot. I think there's a tendency to take it too personally when no one responds to something I post. I forget that talking to JMDL is a little different from talking to an individual in a private email where a response is generally expected in return. It's easy for me to agree with something someone writes in JMDL, to find it interesting or enlightening, and not feel like I have to write a reply or make a comment. This is especially true if I'm really busy or if I have a backlog of digests. I'm trying to be more responsive, just because I know how much I appreciate it when people respond to me. > content, or not. Some of you I feel I almost know. I am > eagerly looking forward to JoniFest (and some guitar lessons > from Marian). Me, too! It would be a pleasure to show you some guitar stuff! > However, I can't help but feel some amount of inferiority > when posting. Sometimes I wish you guys would think of > this list as more of a CONVERSATION. There are many > things that are posted on here that one would never have > the bad manners to say in person. Just as you would never > completely ignore someone who was speaking to you. > Unfortunately, the internet has done much to "casualize" > discussions, to the point that common manners no longer > apply. I personally think this is a goal that we as a group > should to try hard to overcome. These are really excellent points and ones which I hope we as a list can discuss further. How is participating in JMDL like and unlike a conversation? How can we make it better? > jen... not being terribly articulate, This anxiety seems to be an affliction of more than one JMDLer! You seem pretty articulate to me! Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:31:30 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Tape Tree #8 and photos I was listening to Tape Tree #8 in my car this morning and all the memories came flooding back of that glorious day last August. I think I will consider that Day one of the highlights of my life for a long time to come. Just to remind any newcomers to the list, photos of A Day In The Garden are still available through Wally's website: http://www.jonimitchell.com/GardenPhotos.html One third of the proceeds go back to the Joni Mitchell Home Page, so check them out and let me know if you want to order any. Joni peaked that day, my friends!!! :-) Take care, Sue ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 08:48:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: (NJC) Confessions of a Non-Poster - --- M.Russell@iaea.org wrote: How is participating in JMDL like > and unlike a > conversation? How can we make it better? This is pretty much the central issue of "virtual" communication in general. On one hand, we're using a technology more like talking and less like writing, in terms of how quickly exchanges can be made. On the other, we're isolating ourselves from one another -- our facial expressions, tone of voice, body language and other information our brains would use to interpret what we say are being with-held. Very unlike conversation and much more like letter writing. So here's my suggestion. Writing a letter takes time. Time to compose, print, stamp, deliver to a post office etc. etc. So we're much more careful about what we put in a letter. I think this is the way we should look at posting ... and my suspicion is that a great many of us already look at it this way. I should also hasten to point out that it is much easier to hurt someone's feelings in person, and would submit that treating e-mail like conversation is also the shortest route to this unfortunate outcome. Just some wanderings ... Don Rowe _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 10:49:09 -0500 From: Doug Barrett Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V4 #248 Jenaya wrote: <> Jenaya, You're entire post was one of the best I have read on here. Joni's lyrics hit the mark on so many levels that they lend themselves to many interpretations (like any good writing). The best example is "Don't Interrupt the Sorrow." I have heard several interpretations discussed on here, and not a single one seems to be off the mark. No one has a monopoly on interpreting Joni. As for the line in "How do You Stop," abortion is certainly ONE valid possibility. Anyone who said "Duhhh," needs to reassess his/her life and search for whatever demon caused this unprovoked call to codescension. That is most certainly THEIR problem and not yours. I am often amused by the pretentiousness of some "wordsmiths." (And understand that I am referring to only a few.) Many of these people can not perform simple algebra, but are the first to argue for an hour over the difference between "continually" and "continuously." And remember, "we don't need no piece of paper from the city hall" is not technically correct. I have yet to hear anyone persecute Joni for that one. We all need to remember that we are discussing arguably the best songwriter of all time. Our discussions, no matter how sesquipedalean or pedestrian, ARE conversations. I suspect that Joni would get a kick out of someone saying "duhhh!" She might note that some of us have totally missed the mark on some of her songs. I would argue that this is what makes her songs great. You will not see several paragraphs devoted to KC and the Sunshine Band's lyrics (though you can still have fun dancing). There is no call to arms because someone misheard a lyric, saw a penis (which is there, duhhh!), misinterpreted a lyric, or has no clue when someone discusses the technical issues regarding chord progressions. This board is for fun, and is not a technical journal. God knows, I read enough of them and write enough for them that I don't need it here. Just my thoughts on the matter. Peace, love, and Anima. Doug We are particles of change orbiting around the sun. (Who knew that she had offered her own grand unified theory of physics/metaphysics in 1976?) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:54:42 EDT From: WirlyPearl@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Moment In a message dated 6/8/99 9:36:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Louis.Lynch@wonderware.com writes: << Then, the in-store radio started to play "He Comes for Conversation." >> That is so wild Louis. Yesterday day when I was in Publix, my local Florida supermarket, I too perked up when I began to hear the familiar guitar opening to "Conversation". I was having a particular stressed out day after not being able to fall asleep until 7 AM and waking before 10 AM. I felt very overwhelmed with everything I needed to take care of, barely making a dent in things after working and working and also feeling a bit lonely, etc. Hearing Joni sing, and the surprise of it was like a friend just putting her arm around me and saying "I'm here for you, and I understand." I happily sang along with her, able to reach the notes, oblivious to everyone else. I really don't know how it affected everyone else, but it made my trip there much more enjoyable. Louis, do you think because you were calmed by hearing Joni sing, it made everyone else appear to calm down as well, or do you really think her music calmed the "savage beasts" while she sang? Pearl NP - Lynette Jennings -Design (on TV) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 08:57:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V4 #248 (NJC/KCC now) - --- Doug Barrett wrote: You > will not see several paragraphs devoted to KC and > the Sunshine Band's lyrics "That's the way .. uh-huh-uh-huh ... I like it!" Brilliant in it's simplicity, staggering in it's confrontational directness, unambiguous of tone and timbre, this ranks as a pinnacle of lyrical achievement. Unlike artists like the legendary Joni Mitchell, who meander around for sometimes as long as 16 minutes without coming directly to a point of any kind, KC and his Sunshine Band have stripped away the pretension and puffery of modern songwriting, and jumped back into the tribal fires of the animal soul. Don Rowe _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 12:49:00 -0600 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - June 8 1997: Today's Toronto Sun publishes an article on Joni, saying "The most touching thing I find about Mitchell is the clues in her songs sent out to the child she gave up. They seem such a hopeless way of somehow bringing the two of them together. What were the chances her daughter would hear those songs and then think that surely this was her birth mother? I know there are people out there who think Mitchell is a bit of a shark, but it struck me as heartbreakingly naive." Read the entire article at: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/torontosun-970608.htm - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 10:28:33 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: shameless plug NJC with ani content Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 00:49:34 -0400 From: BarBearUh please forgive the self-promotion here but i know some of you may be interested... i've edited an independent documentary that is a quirky character study of 5 women, one of whom is ani difranco. it will be screening next week in washington, dc. if you live nearby and might want to attend, please email me privately. barbara np: gershwin's world (over and over and over...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 13:05:36 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Fwd: 'A Case Of You' ~ Joni's Introduction - --part1_e5e8c6b7.248ea760_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Simon wrote: COMMENTS AFTER QUOTE: << n another occasion Joni had this to say about her songs in general: " Well, you know, I think the danger is confusing art with the artist. The songs are really designed, and some are autobiographical and some are portraits. Even if they're sung in the first person, frequently they're portraits. So a lot is written from identification, much of this historically. But I think the point of the songs -- I object to a certain degree that the public is more facinated by the artist than the art form itself, and I think that the people who get the most out of my music see themselves in it. " >> On the one hand Joni seems to be telling us we make too big a deal out of the words to her songs as they relate to her personally. We are not supposed to assume that when she says she misses the "boom boom pachyderm" that she is talking about her ol' man. Or that "maybe its the smoke" doesnt refer to klein telling her he didnt like her smoking in the song Borderline. The bottom line is that Artists write about what is going through their life and their minds. I dont believe they can isolate their reality and we are all supposed to pretend they are not really writing about themselves or that the song has no meaning other than what they are saying is just words that work with the tune. To me the greatest thing an artist can do is to truly hide within their art something very personal that only they know is there. When I was in Rome I was taken to the Piazza Navona and in the middle of the piazza is this absolutely magnificant sculpture of a four horse chariot in a raging river (ocean?) that was done by Bernini. I was admiring the work when my friend asked me if there was anything about the work that I noticed and when I mentioned some of the incredible features on the terrified faces and the musculature of the horses and the movement the statue (Bernini was awesome and I could go on about him indefinitely) she said "NO, thats not it". In the Piazza navona there is a church. There was a competiton to do the facade of this church (St.Agnes I believe) . Bernini lost the contract to do the church so he decided to seek his revenge by doing the statue in the fountain. As it was pointed out to me all the faces of all the figures in this incredible work can be clearly seen sheilding their faces from the competitors work on the church as if they are averting their eyes from its horror. Now THAT is an astounding thing to pull off. It was also something that was definitely not apparrent to me until I was informed. That is why the guy was a genius. Ah, Rome, bellissima cita. The bottom line is artists cant have it both ways. Biting sarcasm and invective for their rivals and enemies and peeves and jilted lovers but were supposed to pretend it doesnt mean anything. Thanks Joni. We may be fascinated by the artists art but its really hard to separate some of the art from the artists as human beings. marcel deste. - --part1_e5e8c6b7.248ea760_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb04.mx.aol.com (rly-zb04.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.4]) by air-zb05.mail.aol.com (v59.34) with SMTP; Mon, 07 Jun 1999 13:54:05 2000 Received: from chmls05.mediaone.net (ne.mediaone.net [24.128.1.70]) by rly-zb04.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id NAA15333; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 13:53:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smoe.org (080020908e73.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.204.144]) by chmls05.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA27193; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 13:46:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) with SMTP id NAA18832; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 13:45:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.10); Mon, 7 Jun 1999 13:45:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) id NAA18810 for joni-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 13:44:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.tco.com (mail.tco.com [165.254.158.13]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-relay2) with ESMTP id NAA18791 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 13:44:00 -0400 (EDT) From: simon@icu.com Received: from [165.254.158.210] (165.254.158.210) by mail.tco.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.2); Mon, 7 Jun 1999 13:43:47 -0500 X-Sender: simon%icu.com@mail.tco.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 13:45:21 -0800 To: joni@smoe.org Subject: 'A Case Of You' ~ Joni's Introduction Cc: TerryM2442@aol.com Sender: owner-joni@jmdl.com Reply-To: simon@icu.com Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TerryM2442@aol.com, writes asking ... >__________________________________________________________________________ >I've been dying to play A Case of You (on piano, yes it can work) but >need to know something. Do you lyric experts think that Joni's reference >to drinking a "case of you" goes beyond the surface of drinking up true >love? I mean, er, how do I say this...HELP ME..umm...is she talking about >some graphic sex here? I don't want to embarrass the hell out of myself >in front of my colleagues. > >Be gently now. Terry >__________________________________________________________________________ Terry, i guess you can find sexual innuendo in a 'A Case Of You' if you want, the same way some seem to want to see a penis on the cover of Hejira (where none exists) instead Joni's wrist. besides ... who actually drinks a case of THAT! here's how Joni introduced 'A Case Of You' during a concert at the Red Rocks Amphitheater (7-30-83): " We all know that song 'Hit Me With Your Best Shot', well this is kind of a song like that -- y'know it's like ah, it's got a slightly different approach, but it's the same idea. It's called 'Oh Darlin, I Could Drink A Case Of You And STILL Be On My Feet' " don't know if this helps or not. on another occasion Joni had this to say about her songs in general: " Well, you know, I think the danger is confusing art with the artist. The songs are really designed, and some are autobiographical and some are portraits. Even if they're sung in the first person, frequently they're portraits. So a lot is written from identification, much of this historically. But I think the point of the songs -- I object to a certain degree that the public is more facinated by the artist than the art form itself, and I think that the people who get the most out of my music see themselves in it. " JM, NPR Interview ~ 5-28-95 take care, - ------- simon - ------- - --part1_e5e8c6b7.248ea760_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 13:12:27 -0400 (EDT) From: w evans Subject: Second Fret Sets 1966-1968 I just got this for $46 on my first and maybe last trip to my beloved ann arbor since I moved away almost a year ago... maybe last because everyone I love there is moving away. But they sure have better record stores than Atlanta... I'd only ever read about some of the songs on here before and I'm so happy to finally have some pre-STAS document. The versions of many of the familiar songs here are a revelation, mainly because she sings several of them much lower than she would on record 2-3 years later. I would not have expected this, but I like it very much. In fact I've long felt better about her lower range post-mid 70s than her high range. Now I know that she made something of a different kind of effort going to that range in the studio. There was a discussion a while back about how her voice on STAS sounds more like her later voice than the high stuff on Clouds and Ladies, and how the recording technology (or lack of) on STAS played a part, and that may be true but I now wonder if she just went through a phase in 1969-71 of singing very high, and if perhaps, earlier, it was normal for her to explore her low range? ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #249 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?