From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #219 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, May 18 1999 Volume 04 : Number 219 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: FWIW: Hole... and Joni [David Wright ] Save Our List (NJC) [evian ] Re: JMDL Digest V4 #218 [Jason Long ] more random etiquette questions (NJC) [evian ] Re: The Gorge, one year ago [pmeyer ] Live Joni CD release coming soon (ish) [Howard Wright ] Re: NJC: Save Our List (long but earnest!) [Ginamu@aol.com] Today in Joni History - May 17 [Today in Joni History ] Netscape (NJC) ["Eric Taylor" ] List Wisdom [Gellerray@aol.com] Re: (NJC) [catman ] Re: [Fwd: Where Did Our Love Go?] [catman ] RE: War and Peace on the JMDL [Jenaya Dawe ] "Both Sides Now" on Ally McBeal [Jill Tamada ] Re: Joni ASCAP Award"Both Sides Now" on Ally McBeal ["Kakki" ] Re: Two Grey Rooms [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: (NJC) ["Ken (Slarty)" ] Hissings DEMO [CaTGirl627@aol.com] ASCAP Award [Phyliss Ward ] Joni apparition in Hollywood and other miscellania ["Kakki" Subject: Re: FWIW: Hole... and Joni The Rev. Vince wrote: > > http://www.post-gazette.com:80/magazine/19990514hole4.asp > > If I understand this correctly, Hole - Courtney Love's group - just put > out an album with a cover of "Both Sides Now" on it. That was actually on their first album, I think, from seven or eight years ago, _Pretty on the Inside_ (on which it's called "Clouds"). - --David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 01:34:14 -0600 From: evian Subject: Save Our List (NJC) Ok Listers, I think it is time that we all joined hands and sang a few rounds of "Kumbaya" or "We Are the World", or "What the World Needs Now" (or whatever the hell the name of that song is by Ms. Ross). Evian, who is nursing a tummy ache from hell... never eat Raisin Bran and tacos loaded with hot sauce in the same day... you'll pay my friends... oh HOW you'll pay!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 03:36:12 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V4 #218 >From: Vince Lavieri >Subject: FWIW: Hole... and Joni > >http://www.post-gazette.com:80/magazine/19990514hole4.asp > >If I understand this correctly, Hole - Courtney Love's group - just put >out an album with a cover of "Both Sides Now" on it. Hole's cover of "Both Sides Now" appears under the title "Clouds", and was released on their debut album, _Pretty on the Inside_, in 1991. This first album is much less accessible than their later efforts -- it's more in the hardcore vein and, for the most part, lacks the poppier sensibilities they made way for in their later work. Their take on the song is quite interesting, to my ears, even though Courtney did change some of the lyrics. On the album's track listing, it appears as the final song; on the CD itself, it appears mid-way through track 10, segued into from Hole's own composition "Pretty on the Inside". Coincidentally, while reading this, I was listening to the Hole album. I recently reread a biography of Courtney Love that I own, and while I much prefer Hole's later work (_Live Through This_ in particular), I've been inspired to go back and give their early recordings a few spins. Jase NP: Hole, _Pretty on the Inside_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 01:48:51 -0600 From: evian Subject: more random etiquette questions (NJC) Since Kakki raised all the legal issues, and since we are throwing around the issues of what is proper/improper to post, I was just wondering something really stupid.... Once something is posted ON the list, is it some breach of whatever to send that to someone else who isn't on the list? What I mean is.... do people get mad if we snag something that was posted on-list and send it elsewhere? I am not talking about personal posts, but rather jokes, parodies, etc. If it IS considered a no-no, then I am guilty of copying and sending that God questionnaire from the digest to about 4 people. Thus, I suppose I owe Ken Slarty about 20 cents in royalties... Cheque's in the mail! Evian, still nursing the tummy ache and an oncoming cold... I feel like Joni after a bad day of air conditioning and too much of that pork and apples crap she calls a meal! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 03:04:40 -0700 From: pmeyer Subject: Re: The Gorge, one year ago > From: "Eric G. Postel" > Subject: In Memory -- One Year Ago > > Howdy one and all. Its hard to believe that its one year but it is indeed > that long since the first Joni tour in many years. I have seen literally > hundreds of concerts by many artists over the last 25 years but the two > nights at the Gorge were really special. Especially the 16th. I can't agree more. That night was extraordinary, as was Joni. It's made even more memorable by knowing that Wally and Joni met then. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 11:13:48 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: Live Joni CD release coming soon (ish) I just read in this months Mojo magazine that there is a live recording of a Joni concert from "the mid 70s" that will be released on CD later this year. From what I remember (I was just browsing through the magazine in a book shop!) there is a guy who has collected a few interesting live recordings of various artists, and is doing a series of official releases this summer. The Joni concert was from a Canadian tour she did, but they didn't give details. He also had a Steely Dan recording from '74, and he said he was currently negotiating with Donald and Walter to get it released. Live recordings of other bands were mentioned, but I can't remember the names ... I think Bob Marley was mentioned. Check out Mojo for more info! Howard ******************************************************* Howard.Wright@ed.ac.uk Well it's a cold bowl of chilli When love lets you down Neil Young ******************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:14:44 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC: Save Our List (long but earnest!) In a message dated 5/16/99 6:26:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ewwtaylor@adelphia.net writes: > Wow! I rarely read such a long post but find this latest flap > educational. When I first joined jmdl 1/98 I posted a joke DocNurse > privately emailed me to the list & unintentionally started a feud. But we > finally got over ourselves, kissed & made up.... > I still swear by the scroll & delete keys, > E.T. I don't mean to undermine the feelings of the individuals involved in this dispute, but I just can't understand why this has come to such a level. I'm with Eric on this one. Even say, 20 unwanted emails can be deleted in seconds, right? And who wants to open up a whole legal can of worms regarding slander, posting private mail to a public list without someone's consent, etc.? Hopefully most of us lead fuller lives than this! Who has the energy to get so worked up about a petty dispute? The world is full of all types of people and some are going to do and say things which outrage and insult us. Such is life. Learn from it, put it behind you and move on. My tone here is direct and to the point but I am not insensitive toward the whole matter. I have many more complex feelings on the whole thing but this particular dispute caused a sort of stupid soap opera to begin airing in my head and I've had to turn it off. I can't stand this stuff. If this were not the Joni list and if I hadn't been turned on to so much more music than Joni's through private discussions and sharing of tapes, etc. The only thing that keeps me from going to the JC only list is, in fact, that other music gets mentioned a lot in NJC and being a music head, I can't resist. I'm done with the political stuff. Not that I participated much to begin with. Oh, the beauty of delete. The sound of that little click is just what I need to keep my brain uncluttered. Wish it were that easy in the outside world, but I'm working on it. Take care, Gina (just one lister's personal reaction to the latest squabble) NP: XTC - Apple Venus I (tape copy from a jmdler Jody, who also taped a radio interview with Andy Partridge - I'm buying the CD - one exquisite song after another! ) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 13:57:00 -0600 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - May 17 1969: Today's issue of Rolling Stone features Joni on the cover. In the supporting article, the writer includes this very interesting paragraph: "Miss Mitchell, a wispy 25-year-old blonde, is best known for her compositions, "Michael from Mountains" and "Both Sides Now," as recorded by Judy Collins, and "The Circle Game," cut by Tom Rush. She has a first LP out (on Reprise). A second album -- recorded during successful concerts at UC Berkeley and at Carnegie Hall--is ready for release, and another studio album has already been recorded. She is editing a book of poetry and artwork; a volume of her compositions will follow shortly. And she has received a movie offer (to conceive, script and score a film)." Read the full article at: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/rsmay69.htm 1998: Joni, Bob Dylan, and Van Morrison perform for a second night in George, Washington at The Gorge Amphitheater. Read extensive coverage at: http://www.jonimitchell.com/OnTheRoadGorgeB98.html http://www.jmdl.com/articles/review980517.htm - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:49:42 -0400 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Netscape (NJC) Sorry if I offended anyone with my *Netscape SUCKS* remark. I tried Netscape 4.0 twice last year & ended up having to reformat my hard drive because it conflicted so badly with Internet Explorer & Windows 98 (I lost the capacity to view web graphics & photos both times). Later I learned that it's a good idea to completely uninstall IE from Windows before installing Netscape. I've heard that Netscape works better for MAC & AOL users while IE works better for Windows & HTML-server users. I recently upgraded to IE 5.0 and found it to be a RAM hog so I went back to IE 4.01. The main reason I prefer IE over Netscape is because it lets you send & receive multiple JPEG attachments & HTML webpages. E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 14:23:06 EDT From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: List Wisdom In a message dated 99-05-15 19:33:40 EDT, you write: << There are some sad and disturbed people around and eventually they will out themselves. the one thing the almost two years here as taught me-to let go! Fortunately i no longer get riled by people's posts. They are only words and cannot hurt unless we give them the power to. I learned not to give that power to anyone. One always has to bear in mind that such negativity is the expression of the senders inner world and NOT an expression of truth about the sendee. Takes some time to sink in but it is worth the effort in saved emotional stress. bw colin >> these are not just words to list by, but to live by. here here Colin. rpg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:06:37 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: (NJC) I have used netscape since the beginning of my time on the Net. I have used IE3 and 4 and find them terrible. I have also used other email progs and still find netscpae to be the best. Ken (Slarty) wrote: > Vince Lavieri wrote: > > > Ken, all the really cool people use Netscape 4.51! > > I Know. ;^) - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:13:01 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: [Fwd: Where Did Our Love Go?] The Three Great Stimulants from Dog Eat Dog. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 14:38:35 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: War and Peace on the JMDL Jimdle-ites - I've spent the weekend reading all the comments on the latest list disturbance. Thanks to all who took the time to express their opinions. This whole episode has make me rethink my role as list administrator. My approach has always been to try to maintain public civility on the list by, whenever necessary, the use of a few gentle, low-key reminders and nudges. This has succeeded in large part because of the caliber of people that are on this list - most of whom are thoughtful, respective, intelligent, mature, and ... tolerant. I've seen myself as sort of the janitor who comes in and turns the lights on in the morning. I mop up the occasional spill, pick up a piece of trash here and there - but mainly just sit back out of the way and listen. Still to this day, I believe in this approach to administering the list. However, I've been haunted by this "private mail" issue that we are now debating almost since the day I started this list. It's probably no secret to anyone that my approach to this has been simple - "I have no control over private email, it's not my responsibility." I never wanted to be, and still don't want to be, a policeman - especially of the traffic on the side roads. Regardless, I decided this weekend to make a change in my approach. Ironically, my unwavering stance on the issue has, at times, become my own straight-jacket. In hindsight, it has been to the detriment of the list on more than a handful of occasions. I have known of specific off-list abuses (as a result of debates that started on the list) but have taken no action. There are probably twice as many that I'm not aware of. To those people who have been affected by my inactivity - and have even left the list as a result of it - I offer my sincere apologies. Based on Kakki's and Jerry's comments on the legal issues (in particular... "you own the book but still don't have the rights to the words") - I'm sticking with the policy of not posting private email without the author's permission. I do, however, empathize with the desire to do so in certain cases - I'm convinced one particular thorn in my side would have been quickly eradicated had I simply posted some of this person's private mail. So here it is.... - -------- Please do not post another's private email to the list without their permission. If you feel you are being privately harassed, intimidated, or abused by another list member as a result of a debate or discussion that began on the list, I suggest any or all of these steps: - - Ask them to stop. - - Ignore them. - - Delete their mail unread and/or filter their mail automatically into the trash. At this point, if you feel the harassment, intimidation, or abuse persists and needs to be further addressed: - - Contact their ISP and ask for help in stopping the mail. - - Email me a representation of the nature of the problem (copies of messages, chronology, etc...) and *CC the offender*. Please do not expect me to get involved and mediate the case. Rather, based on my knowledge of this person's history on the list, I'll make a decision as to their continued status as a member. Hopefully, this will end all but the most severe cases of abuse. In those rare cases, we will need to personally discuss procedures. - -------- That's it, folks. The only thing that has really changed is my willingness to take a look at private abuses as a result of discussions that begin on the list. I totally agree that the person being abused deserves to be heard. Once again, my apologies to all members - past and present - for creating a climate that didn't allow you to bring these abuses to my attention. I hope from this point on you will all feel free to contact me anytime such abuses occur. Still... I'll place my money on the thoughtfulness, respect, intelligence, maturity, and tolerance of fellow Jimdles to stop most of the skirmishes before they even start. :-) Thanks! Les NP - Tom Waits "Pony" from "Mule Variations" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:47:34 -0700 From: Jenaya Dawe Subject: RE: War and Peace on the JMDL {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{**LES**}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} Thank you for putting up with us!!! ... we still fight less than my family :-) Jenaya . NP: Ghetto Of My Mind- Rickie... I've decided this is my new theme song ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:53:13 -0700 From: Jill Tamada Subject: "Both Sides Now" on Ally McBeal Tonights episode of Ally McBeal will feature Vonda Shepherd signing Joni's "Both Sides Now". The episode title is "Love's Illusions". Also, on our local LA NBC channel showed a short clip of Joni while mentioning the ASCAP award she will be receiving tonight. Nice to see Joni back in the news again. Kakki--I'm betting on you to make it into the ASCAP awards show. Full report tomorrow please. All the best, Jill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:55:17 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni ASCAP Award"Both Sides Now" on Ally McBeal Thanks for the update, Jill. Maybe there will be something on the late news tonight. I talked to the local ASCAP office and the event is by invitation only ( But I did get a small hint that someone in our general Joni midst may been covering it ;-D I'd feel funny about going and just lurking around but sure wish I could temporarily morph into a small fly on the wall tonight! Kakki > Also, on our local LA NBC channel showed a short clip of Joni while mentioning > the ASCAP award she will be receiving tonight. Nice to see Joni back in the > news again. > > Kakki--I'm betting on you to make it into the ASCAP awards show. Full report > tomorrow please. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:31:54 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: War and Peace on the JMDL NJC > That's it, folks. The only thing that has really changed is my willingness > to take a look at private abuses as a result of discussions that begin on > the list. I totally agree that the person being abused deserves to be heard. > > Once again, my apologies to all members - past and present - for creating a > climate that didn't allow you to bring these abuses to my attention. I > hope from this point on you will all feel free to contact me anytime such > abuses occur. > Les -- there's nothing to apologize for. Creating this wonderful place does not make you responsible for the misconduct of others. On the other hand, what I've learned from this thread is how intimidating abusive emails can be to some people. I'm sure your outspoken preparedness to help the victims and ban persistent abusers will create some relief, and I very much hope it will help to deter at least some sick people from pouring their poisonous words over innocent listers. Being expelled from Joniland would be quite a punishment for me!!! I deeply admire your common sense, your faith in humanity and civility, as well as your ability to find well-balanced and just solutions. Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 99 18:57:16 -0700 From: Wally Breese Subject: 2 Matters Hi everybody, ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY- Joni is featured in a soon to be released issue of Entertainment Weekly (issue date is either 5/28 OR 6/4). It's a special music report and she's listed as one of the major influences on other songwriters. Joni did an interview and had a session with a major photographer for this issue, and I hear from my sources that Joni rates a full page photo within the report. More soon! ASCAP FOUNDERS AWARD- Tonight (Monday the 17th), Joni is being honored with the prestigious ASCAP Founders Award at the 16th annual ASCAP Pop Awards, held at the Beverly Hilton hotel in L.A.. This is the organization's highest honor, presented to songwriters whose work has broken musical ground and has influenced the development of popular music and culture. The presentation of this award is for pioneering career achievement and is the highlight of the Pop Awards evening. Later, Wally Breese The Joni Mitchell Homepage http://www.JoniMitchell.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:16:19 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Two Grey Rooms In a message dated 5/16/1999 12:01:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, luvart@snet.net writes: << How often does one get so lost in their thoughts? Retreating to our *two grey rooms*? No one knows your there, right? Just you and your thoughts. Then Joni does something that gives me goosebumps .... she sings: With a view >> You just gave me goosebumps. I love that song. It is one of my favs off the album. I wish the song was a bit longer. It is so thought provoking. Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:02:50 -0400 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: Re: (NJC) Same in my case. I first used Netscape and I got used to it and like it. I have IE on my computer but find it seems to run slower though I will say that with Netscape way to often as soon as I log on, my computer completely reboots. I don't know though if the problem is Win 98, my modem, Netscape or what. catman wrote: > I have used netscape since the beginning of my time on the Net. I have > used IE3 and 4 and find them terrible. I have also used other email > progs and still find netscpae to be the best. > > Ken (Slarty) wrote: > > > Vince Lavieri wrote: > > > > > Ken, all the really cool people use Netscape 4.51! > > > > I Know. ;^) > > -- > > CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST > http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html > TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS > http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:44:41 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Hissings DEMO Hello fellow friends, I hear there is a Hissings demo somewhere out there and I was looking to get a high quality copy of this. I am willing to make you a CD of the demo as well as a CD from my collection of your choice. Hissings is one of my favorite albums ( ok they all are great ) so....speak up fellow Joni fan! Catgirl...yes, she wants it all! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 20:48:41 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: ASCAP Award I was thinking it might be a good idea to tune into Entertainment Tonight or "E" tomorrow and see if there are any clips on the awards. - -- Phyliss, warming up the VCR, looking for a blank tape pward@lightspeed.net http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 20:38:17 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Joni apparition in Hollywood and other miscellania My assistant at work, who I've thoroughly inculcated and mesmerized regarding all things Joni, now dutifully reports to me everytime she is played on the radio, mentioned in the press, etc. Today's report from him was kind of cute I thought. He was in Hollywood over the weekend and was walking through a parking lot on his way to the post office when he saw an air-brushed painting of Joni on burlap on the perimeter of the lot, propped against the wall of an adjacent apartment building. He described the painting as very beautiful, about 3 X 4 feet in size and said that Joni was wearing a beret. He kept saying that he was tempted to just take it for me because it was just propped there unattended. Then he thought it may be the artist's work area so he refrained from taking it. He also said he wanted to leave a note on it for the artist to contact him. He even offered to go back and see if it was still there for me! (I love converting people ;-) Another item he reported to me was that he read somewhere that the Storytellers show with Joni had already been filmed. He did not remember where he read this but knows it was not from TV Guide. I told him we are all trying to figure out more information about it at this point. On another Hollywood note - I now have 11 people interested in a gathering at Les Deux Cafes in the near future and am starting to formulate a plan. I talked to the owner Michele Lamy tonight and she told me that there is live music there almost every night and that (in thick French accent mode) "I haf zum beeg surprise people who also appear every week, too". Oooo, fantastique! I will be putting together a little group mailing list soon so anyone who is interested, please let me know. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 00:07:47 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: "Both Sides Now" on Ally McBeal and Wendy Worthington NJC In a message dated 5/17/1999 4:53:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jill@opticalres.com writes: << Tonights episode of Ally McBeal will feature Vonda Shepherd signing Joni's "Both Sides Now". The episode title is "Love's Illusions". >> My sister-in-law was on the show. She will be on next week as well. she is the infamous Ms. Margret Camaro...Yes, she is my sis-in-law. She was on a few weeks ago. She played the feminist and will hopefully be back again next year! she has been out in LA for about 5 years now and this could be one of her biggest breaks. she has been on Seinfield, Murphy Brown, Suddenly Susan, Dharma and Greg, Tower of Terror ( as the nanny), Father of the bride pt. 2 ( she wheeled Steve Martin in a wheel chair). The list goes on and on. It is so exciting seeing someone you know on TV! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:30:13 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: War and Peace on the JMDL Les, You are so important to all of us. I know you don't need to be told this, but let me be selfish and get it off my chest. I admire you and I feel that, like Wally Breese, you are far ahead of many of us on the path to wisdom. Sometimes I try to picture myself running the JMDL or Joni's page and I just have to laugh. Without you and your levelheadedness and Wally's vision, we would never have existed as a community or if we had, we would have long ceased to exist by now. I could NEVER think of you as a janitor. I think of you as a wise, loving principal who's been there and understands. WallyK ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #219 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?